am i an evil munchkin? [Archive] - Wizards Community

am i an evil munchkin? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sir_Jack_Sparrow
02-22-04, 10:36 PM Ok our Dm has told us some legends.... aparently a powerful cleric we know beat off a Taressque a long time ago.... the cleric has now desparately called for our group to come immediately he needs us for soemthing big, im pretty sure its to fight this tarresque.

So am i a munchkin for looking this creature up in the monster manual and planing some alterations to my plan of attack for fighting it? ie usually i will use combat expertise and or my defender sword to boost my ac, but i now know that wont help one little tiny bit against this monster.... i mean its got a +57 to hit, i cant get my AC even up to 57.....

what do i do let the thing smack the crap out of me for a few rounds when iw ill need everythign to fight it anyway?
Tehril
02-22-04, 10:53 PM Munchkin?

No.

As close to a "cheat" that a D&D player can get? Yes.

Someone who has broken the 4th wall (the player/DM wall) and thusly infringed upon the spirit of the game? Yes.

Forget what you saw. Try to find out about the monster in game... perhaps from the cleric.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow
02-22-04, 11:00 PM harsh reply, but yeah its true isn't it? i guess all i can do is try to find out more ingame, or let it pound me into the dirt till i "learn" from my mistakes.

ugggg this is not going to be a pretty fight.

on a related note what do most players out there do when they run into monsters they are very familiar with, but their characters would know nothign about???
Tehril
02-22-04, 11:04 PM I tend to bite my tongue and groan whenever my DM requests an appropriate knowledge check to see if I would know about the aforsaid monster.

Being a part time DM myself, or at least one in the planning stages of a few adventures... it sometimes is difficult to forget what you know.

That being said, I try not to look into any critter that I'm not going to specifically use in my campaign & I never bring anything other than a PHB to my gaming table as a player.

Not having the quick access of the book is a bit of a pain when playing a character that can summon stuff... but it works out in the end.
edgelett
02-22-04, 11:11 PM Originally posted by Sir_Jack_Sparrow
on a related note what do most players out there do when they run into monsters they are very familiar with, but their characters would know nothign about???

I'm afraid I agree mate - you cheated. Big time. If you had knowledge in the required area, you could have made a check to see what you know. Best thing you can do is get yourself or another character to do some research - does anyone have gather information or knowledge?

eg Last week, we came upon a vampire. My character has never met one...but I have with a previous character. Luckily I have Knowledge (Undead) as I;m a cleric/hunter of the dead so I rolled a check & knew the best way to destroy the body.

My DM is VERY HARSH on players who cheat - he's very specific on what characters know as opposed to what players know.

one game, he was describing a monster to the group. no one had heard of it except another player who announced out loud to the table "oh, that's a such & such, they're immune to blah." Player was docked 300xp.
Needless to say the player hasn't blabbed out loud since.
edgelett
02-22-04, 11:13 PM Originally posted by Tehril
INot having the quick access of the book is a bit of a pain when playing a character that can summon stuff... but it works out in the end.

I got my DM to do some "Stat cards" for the monsters I summon, so I have their strikes/special attacks etc at the ready without having to go inside the MM. My DM will not upon the pain of death let a player look in the MM anyway.
Edymnion
02-22-04, 11:35 PM Well, you should know that DMs tend to throw templates on monsters and change them on the fly just so players can't do this sort of thing.

I'd be more worried about running into a Winged Insectile Tarrasque now...
Ithilorien
02-23-04, 12:33 AM Ugh, the tarrasque . . .

I'd allow the existence of a knowldege (monsters) skill to reflect player's own knowledge.

But in my opinion, a DM using the tarrasque is just begging for cheese, anyway.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow
02-23-04, 07:53 AM Yeah i think ive elarned my lesson here, this is going to be so painful ignoring what i know OOC when we fight this thing, although honestly the only thing i really picked up form looking at the monster manual was a look into its savign throws, and the fact that it can hit me at will no matter what i do. so when we do fight this thing, i'll still try to prevent it from hitting me by using things like combat expertise, and i will keep my damn mouth shut if anyone suggest using somethign that allows a saving throw against this monster.

damn sure there is not much that can be done against this beast anyway is there?
Edymnion
02-23-04, 09:02 AM Originally posted by Sir_Jack_Sparrow
damn sure there is not much that can be done against this beast anyway is there? Unless the DM LETS you win, no, you can't kill the Tarrasque at anything short of Epic levels. Every single way to kill it that I've seen on these boards require either a braindead DM to let happen, a DM that doesn't understand the rules, or a DM that is simply incapable of playing the beast in the correct manner (like having it just stand in one place and swipe at people).

No, if you see Big T, run for your life.
Thorak
02-23-04, 09:31 AM This is why I'm really, really happy I read the 2nd edition books over and over. I've got a fair idea what things are like, and what they're capable of, but nothing really specific regarding 3.X. And I'm refusing to look at stats unless I'm summoning something, or I choose to DM (I did DM back in 2nd edition, one reason I read everything). Since I'm still relatively new to 3.X, it'll be a while before I DM.

This means I, and my characters through awful OOC knowledge use, have decent ideas what things can do. Which I resolve IC by figuring he'd have heard legends and stories. There's plenty of new critters in 3.X I'm not familiar with, and there's usually a few new awful surprises about the old ones too.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow
02-23-04, 09:58 AM Well currently we are all around level 20-21, we have me a ranger/fighter, a rouge/fighter/swashbuckler a wizard/archmage, and a mystic thurge (sorcer/cleric) personally i think its going to tear us a new one, but we may not ahve much choice in fighting it. Me Im just hoping we can gaina few more elvels before the confrontation is forced.
Twisted Puppy
02-23-04, 10:16 AM To answer your question, I agree with Tehril on all counts. Your best bet, without metagaming, is to get what information you can from the cleric that has requested your help. You should be able to get some very useful information on the beast that way.
As a DM, my response, were you to go in optimised for fighting the Tarrasque without having ever seen it or done research on it would be to dock you a fair bit of the experience you would normally earn. That said, you're at least being honest about it. Learn from it, and put it behind you. Whether you tell your DM this is up to you. If you told me, while I wouldn't be overjoyed, I'd certainly appreciate you letting me know. Then I'd give you what knowledge the cleric had - and proceed to make some minor changes to the beast, notably the feats it has. Nothing to increase the CR, but give it a slightly different look in combat.
Heron_Marked_Blade
02-23-04, 10:21 AM Why do you have to kill the Tarrasque in order to beat it? Why don't you just wish it into the sun? It won't die there (immune to fire), but it won't be back to bother you. You'll have defeated a CR 20 encounter, which means good experience.

Wish (or multiple wishes) might work, since it would emulate the 7th level teleport object sor/wiz spell. The problem is the size/weight limit of the subject. That's where the reality-altering power of wish comes it. :)
Aucturos
02-23-04, 12:43 PM Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade
Why do you have to kill the Tarrasque in order to beat it? Why don't you just wish it into the sun? It won't die there (immune to fire), but it won't be back to bother you. You'll have defeated a CR 20 encounter, which means good experience.

Wish (or multiple wishes) might work, since it would emulate the 7th level teleport object sor/wiz spell. The problem is the size/weight limit of the subject. That's where the reality-altering power of wish comes it. :)

It could be that his campaign world doesn't have a sun? :cool:

Not a bad idea... Although I'd say wish it to another plane and let someone else deal with it. Use wish for a beefed up "Gate" spell that puts it in the middle of a demon war and stick around juuuuuust long enough to watch it wreak havoc upon the armies.

I know my character would be laughing his boots off at the sight of a fire immume monster that's barely mortal in the first place get :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: off at entire legions of demons and devils...
adiaven
02-23-04, 12:59 PM Why not just have the whole party fly?

There are a lot of ways to defeat a creature who doesn't have spells and doesn't have a lot of su abilities.... it will just take a long amount of time.
Raging Halfling
02-23-04, 01:17 PM I've got what I think should be a foolproof strategy. Buy a Mirror of Opposition and have a Wish prepared. Some brave soul flies up with the mirror and makes the Tarrasque see itself, then you get to wait and watch an epic duel between the Tarrasque...and itself!

If the original Tarrasque wins, finish it off (it should be badly hurt), and then use a Wish to keep it from regenerating. There-easy, nobody even has to die, and it's not beyond the scope of a 20th level party.
Tehril
02-23-04, 01:35 PM ^ That is actually a good idea... though the fallout of such a battle wold be something terrible.

That being said, I'm not sure if many DMs would allow players to get away with that...

It IS a creative solution, however. I also like the one about gating it to the Blood Wars... problem is, the gate spell duration for calling is not long at all.

The real trick would be in getting Mr. T to WALK through a just opened gate to the Blood Wars :D Then it's a permanent solution... no SR or any sort of save because it would be willingly entering the portal.

I can't remember if it is immune to illusions or not... I'm afraid someone might have to bite the bullet and be live bait. In that case, you'd need to have 2 Gates set up, one just in front of the other.

The bait catches MR T's attention and gets him mad enough to follow. The bait hits the first portal (and it winks out) but the second portal is still standing in almost the same spot...and Mr T isn't that bright...after all, he eats and kills... he doesn't write books for a living ;) So maybe, with a little luck, he'll follow the bait into the "portal"... thusly placing himself directly in the middle of the blood wars :D

Of course, that's providing your DM allows you to opene a Gate to that plane. Some planes bar Gate spells.
Anhur
02-23-04, 02:53 PM Sorry dude, you're a munchkin. If you are doing something that would detract from the other player's fun in the game (like having inside knowledge about a beastie), then its clearly munchkining. When I DM, players cannot under any circumstance look up critters in the MM, even if they summon them. I really want to avoid having players compare stat blocks in detail trying to twink out the "optimal" summons. Its understood that if a player is caught looking up monster info, I will immediately heal the moster to full HP, and add a new ability. I've not had a problem with this in a long time, but its always clearly stated to new players in the group.
Raging Halfling
02-23-04, 10:19 PM Sorry, above I think I missed the point of the thread. Yes, by peeking at the Monster Manual, you are in fact cheating and violating the spirit of the game.

A non-munchkin method involving no metagaming would be to ask for as much information as possible in-game. Talk to anyone who is a specialist on monster lore what they know about its capabilities and then start piecing together your strategy.

That would only make sense anyway, unless your party is extremely reckless in facing gargantuan creatures of legend, feared throughout the multiverse. :rolleyes:
Edymnion
02-23-04, 10:32 PM Originally posted by adiaven
Why not just have the whole party fly? *sigh*
This is why I mentioned no DM in their right mind would let something like this work.

Tarrasque has an Intelligence of 3. That isn't braindead hulk, that is low end PC intelligence. If you think the Tarrasque won't simply rip up trees to throw at you, or boulders, or anything else he can get his hands on to knock you out of the sky, you deserve the TPK you're gonna get ;)
LordHell
02-23-04, 10:41 PM Originally posted by Raging Halfling
I've got what I think should be a foolproof strategy. Buy a Mirror of Opposition and have a Wish prepared. Some brave soul flies up with the mirror and makes the Tarrasque see itself, then you get to wait and watch an epic duel between the Tarrasque...and itself!

If the original Tarrasque wins, finish it off (it should be badly hurt), and then use a Wish to keep it from regenerating. There-easy, nobody even has to die, and it's not beyond the scope of a 20th level party.

Unless you enlarged the mirror I'm not sure if the Tarrasque would even notice it. You realise how big it is right?

There is also the possibility that if it met something it's own size, it might run away.
Really it's "just" a big animal :)

As for the OP, you're metagaming. A big no no.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow
02-23-04, 10:55 PM well its only metagaming if i use that knowledge in game right? and since we ahvent even encountered the beast yet i havent metagamed.

Also i talked ot my DM and he informed me we would be told everything of general importance about the monster by the last guy who fought it.

so im pretty much in the clear.
LordHell
02-23-04, 11:30 PM Originally posted by Sir_Jack_Sparrow
well its only metagaming if i use that knowledge in game right? and since we ahvent even encountered the beast yet i havent metagamed.

Also i talked ot my DM and he informed me we would be told everything of general importance about the monster by the last guy who fought it.

so im pretty much in the clear.

Yes it's only metagaming if you used the knowledge in the game, but still, you must admit your intentions were pretty sinister.

Why else would you peak at the stats of a monster before the big fight? :)
Edymnion
02-24-04, 12:26 PM Originally posted by LordHell
Really it's "just" a big animal :) No, it isn't, and it should not be played as such. It has HUMAN intelligence, not animal. There is a huge leap in thinking ability between Int 2 and Int 3. The Tarrasque is capable of thinking ahead, making plans, setting traps, and following tactics (even if they are just simple traps and tactics).

Do you think that Epic level Half-Orc Barbarian decked out in Strength boosting gear that also has an Int of 3 is "just a big animal"? No, you treat him as being dangerous and at potentially cunning.

Do not underestimate the intelligence of the Tarrasque. It may not be a genious, or even "normal" as far as intelligence goes, but its got more than enough smarts to be a playable PC, so you should treat it as such, and plan with that in mind.

You pretty much can't KILL the Tarrasque, but you can defeat him. Remember, killing an opponent is the crudest, most base form of defeating them. You can win without ever hurting your opponent. The easiest way to defeat the Tarrasque is to use Plane Shift on him. Assuming you get past his SR and he fails his save, all you have to do is walk up and touch the big guy, and send him to another Plane. Heck, shift him to the Abyss and let him wreak unholy havoc in the depths of hell. Might even get a good god or three to owe you one that way.
Vega_Engi
02-24-04, 01:50 PM WHAT I DO?

It's very simple indeed.
in your case i will tell the player, that the cleric has fought the "BIG ANGRY BRAGHATURA" monster. They won't find BRAGHATURAs in the MM.

Guess, what template i will use for BRAGHATURA.

P.S. Later i will tell that they actually defeated the tarrasque.
Urban Legend
02-24-04, 01:57 PM Originally posted by Sir_Jack_Sparrow
...beat off a Taressque...

:rofl:

I'm sorry, I just couldn't get past that part.

:rofl:
Avalongod
02-24-04, 02:14 PM Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade
Why do you have to kill the Tarrasque in order to beat it? Why don't you just wish it into the sun? It won't die there (immune to fire), but it won't be back to bother you.

I disagree with the immune to the sun's "fire"....there's a big difference between a BBQ and nuclear fusion after all...
LordHell
02-24-04, 06:16 PM Originally posted by Edymnion
No, it isn't, and it should not be played as such. It has HUMAN intelligence, not animal. There is a huge leap in thinking ability between Int 2 and Int 3. The Tarrasque is capable of thinking ahead, making plans, setting traps, and following tactics (even if they are just simple traps and tactics).

Do you think that Epic level Half-Orc Barbarian decked out in Strength boosting gear that also has an Int of 3 is "just a big animal"? No, you treat him as being dangerous and at potentially cunning.

Do not underestimate the intelligence of the Tarrasque. It may not be a genious, or even "normal" as far as intelligence goes, but its got more than enough smarts to be a playable PC, so you should treat it as such, and plan with that in mind.

You pretty much can't KILL the Tarrasque, but you can defeat him. Remember, killing an opponent is the crudest, most base form of defeating them. You can win without ever hurting your opponent. The easiest way to defeat the Tarrasque is to use Plane Shift on him. Assuming you get past his SR and he fails his save, all you have to do is walk up and touch the big guy, and send him to another Plane. Heck, shift him to the Abyss and let him wreak unholy havoc in the depths of hell. Might even get a good god or three to owe you one that way.

I am not underestimating the intelligence of the Tarrasque, but rather, you are underestimating the intelligence of an Animal.

Go watch Animal Planet of Discovery Channel a bit and come back and tell me an animal is incapable of those things you have mentioned.

However, there is no way in hell it is going to be able to craft up plans to thawt the PC's unless they are amazingly absentminded, and something the size of an apartment building isn't exactly going to set a trap for them either.

In terms of intelligence, it is NOT human intelligence. A Half Orc Barbarian with 3 intelligence might be something to fear, but hardly for it's "cunning", unless he had some instinctual cunning.
Such a character would struggle to even be able to grasp the concept of speaking, and would probably have a lot of habbits and traits akin to an animal.

When you're getting down that low, many things because purely reaction/action or instinct. Forethought doesn't really come into the equation I'm sorry.
Even "smart" cats, while able to lay traps, don't have much forthought and still operate by the golden rule, the bigger and stronger creature wins. I'd imagine that a person with 3 intelligence would operate under this rule also.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 02-22-04, 10:36 PM	Ok our Dm has told us some legends.... aparently a powerful cleric we know beat off a Taressque a long time ago.... the cleric has now desparately called for our group to come immediately he needs us for soemthing big, im pretty sure its to fight this tarresque. So am i a munchkin for looking this creature up in the monster manual and planing some alterations to my plan of attack for fighting it? ie usually i will use combat expertise and or my defender sword to boost my ac, but i now know that wont help one little tiny bit against this monster.... i mean its got a +57 to hit, i cant get my AC even up to 57..... what do i do let the thing smack the crap out of me for a few rounds when iw ill need everythign to fight it anyway?
Tehril 02-22-04, 10:53 PM	Munchkin? No. As close to a "cheat" that a D&D player can get? Yes. Someone who has broken the 4th wall (the player/DM wall) and thusly infringed upon the spirit of the game? Yes. Forget what you saw. Try to find out about the monster in game... perhaps from the cleric.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 02-22-04, 11:00 PM	harsh reply, but yeah its true isn't it? i guess all i can do is try to find out more ingame, or let it pound me into the dirt till i "learn" from my mistakes. ugggg this is not going to be a pretty fight. on a related note what do most players out there do when they run into monsters they are very familiar with, but their characters would know nothign about???
Tehril 02-22-04, 11:04 PM	I tend to bite my tongue and groan whenever my DM requests an appropriate knowledge check to see if I would know about the aforsaid monster. Being a part time DM myself, or at least one in the planning stages of a few adventures... it sometimes is difficult to forget what you know. That being said, I try not to look into any critter that I'm not going to specifically use in my campaign & I never bring anything other than a PHB to my gaming table as a player. Not having the quick access of the book is a bit of a pain when playing a character that can summon stuff... but it works out in the end.
edgelett 02-22-04, 11:11 PM	Originally posted by Sir_Jack_Sparrow on a related note what do most players out there do when they run into monsters they are very familiar with, but their characters would know nothign about??? I'm afraid I agree mate - you cheated. Big time. If you had knowledge in the required area, you could have made a check to see what you know. Best thing you can do is get yourself or another character to do some research - does anyone have gather information or knowledge? eg Last week, we came upon a vampire. My character has never met one...but I have with a previous character. Luckily I have Knowledge (Undead) as I;m a cleric/hunter of the dead so I rolled a check & knew the best way to destroy the body. My DM is VERY HARSH on players who cheat - he's very specific on what characters know as opposed to what players know. one game, he was describing a monster to the group. no one had heard of it except another player who announced out loud to the table "oh, that's a such & such, they're immune to blah." Player was docked 300xp. Needless to say the player hasn't blabbed out loud since.
edgelett 02-22-04, 11:13 PM	Originally posted by Tehril INot having the quick access of the book is a bit of a pain when playing a character that can summon stuff... but it works out in the end. I got my DM to do some "Stat cards" for the monsters I summon, so I have their strikes/special attacks etc at the ready without having to go inside the MM. My DM will not upon the pain of death let a player look in the MM anyway.
Edymnion 02-22-04, 11:35 PM	Well, you should know that DMs tend to throw templates on monsters and change them on the fly just so players can't do this sort of thing. I'd be more worried about running into a Winged Insectile Tarrasque now...
Ithilorien 02-23-04, 12:33 AM	Ugh, the tarrasque . . . I'd allow the existence of a knowldege (monsters) skill to reflect player's own knowledge. But in my opinion, a DM using the tarrasque is just begging for cheese, anyway.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 02-23-04, 07:53 AM	Yeah i think ive elarned my lesson here, this is going to be so painful ignoring what i know OOC when we fight this thing, although honestly the only thing i really picked up form looking at the monster manual was a look into its savign throws, and the fact that it can hit me at will no matter what i do. so when we do fight this thing, i'll still try to prevent it from hitting me by using things like combat expertise, and i will keep my damn mouth shut if anyone suggest using somethign that allows a saving throw against this monster. damn sure there is not much that can be done against this beast anyway is there?
Edymnion 02-23-04, 09:02 AM	Originally posted by Sir_Jack_Sparrow damn sure there is not much that can be done against this beast anyway is there? Unless the DM LETS you win, no, you can't kill the Tarrasque at anything short of Epic levels. Every single way to kill it that I've seen on these boards require either a braindead DM to let happen, a DM that doesn't understand the rules, or a DM that is simply incapable of playing the beast in the correct manner (like having it just stand in one place and swipe at people). No, if you see Big T, run for your life.
Thorak 02-23-04, 09:31 AM	This is why I'm really, really happy I read the 2nd edition books over and over. I've got a fair idea what things are like, and what they're capable of, but nothing really specific regarding 3.X. And I'm refusing to look at stats unless I'm summoning something, or I choose to DM (I did DM back in 2nd edition, one reason I read everything). Since I'm still relatively new to 3.X, it'll be a while before I DM. This means I, and my characters through awful OOC knowledge use, have decent ideas what things can do. Which I resolve IC by figuring he'd have heard legends and stories. There's plenty of new critters in 3.X I'm not familiar with, and there's usually a few new awful surprises about the old ones too.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 02-23-04, 09:58 AM	Well currently we are all around level 20-21, we have me a ranger/fighter, a rouge/fighter/swashbuckler a wizard/archmage, and a mystic thurge (sorcer/cleric) personally i think its going to tear us a new one, but we may not ahve much choice in fighting it. Me Im just hoping we can gaina few more elvels before the confrontation is forced.
Twisted Puppy 02-23-04, 10:16 AM	To answer your question, I agree with Tehril on all counts. Your best bet, without metagaming, is to get what information you can from the cleric that has requested your help. You should be able to get some very useful information on the beast that way. As a DM, my response, were you to go in optimised for fighting the Tarrasque without having ever seen it or done research on it would be to dock you a fair bit of the experience you would normally earn. That said, you're at least being honest about it. Learn from it, and put it behind you. Whether you tell your DM this is up to you. If you told me, while I wouldn't be overjoyed, I'd certainly appreciate you letting me know. Then I'd give you what knowledge the cleric had - and proceed to make some minor changes to the beast, notably the feats it has. Nothing to increase the CR, but give it a slightly different look in combat.
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-23-04, 10:21 AM	Why do you have to kill the Tarrasque in order to beat it? Why don't you just wish it into the sun? It won't die there (immune to fire), but it won't be back to bother you. You'll have defeated a CR 20 encounter, which means good experience. Wish (or multiple wishes) might work, since it would emulate the 7th level teleport object sor/wiz spell. The problem is the size/weight limit of the subject. That's where the reality-altering power of wish comes it. :)
Aucturos 02-23-04, 12:43 PM	Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade Why do you have to kill the Tarrasque in order to beat it? Why don't you just wish it into the sun? It won't die there (immune to fire), but it won't be back to bother you. You'll have defeated a CR 20 encounter, which means good experience. Wish (or multiple wishes) might work, since it would emulate the 7th level teleport object sor/wiz spell. The problem is the size/weight limit of the subject. That's where the reality-altering power of wish comes it. :) It could be that his campaign world doesn't have a sun? :cool: Not a bad idea... Although I'd say wish it to another plane and let someone else deal with it. Use wish for a beefed up "Gate" spell that puts it in the middle of a demon war and stick around juuuuuust long enough to watch it wreak havoc upon the armies. I know my character would be laughing his boots off at the sight of a fire immume monster that's barely mortal in the first place get :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: off at entire legions of demons and devils...
adiaven 02-23-04, 12:59 PM	Why not just have the whole party fly? There are a lot of ways to defeat a creature who doesn't have spells and doesn't have a lot of su abilities.... it will just take a long amount of time.
Raging Halfling 02-23-04, 01:17 PM	I've got what I think should be a foolproof strategy. Buy a Mirror of Opposition and have a Wish prepared. Some brave soul flies up with the mirror and makes the Tarrasque see itself, then you get to wait and watch an epic duel between the Tarrasque...and itself! If the original Tarrasque wins, finish it off (it should be badly hurt), and then use a Wish to keep it from regenerating. There-easy, nobody even has to die, and it's not beyond the scope of a 20th level party.
Tehril 02-23-04, 01:35 PM	^ That is actually a good idea... though the fallout of such a battle wold be something terrible. That being said, I'm not sure if many DMs would allow players to get away with that... It IS a creative solution, however. I also like the one about gating it to the Blood Wars... problem is, the gate spell duration for calling is not long at all. The real trick would be in getting Mr. T to WALK through a just opened gate to the Blood Wars :D Then it's a permanent solution... no SR or any sort of save because it would be willingly entering the portal. I can't remember if it is immune to illusions or not... I'm afraid someone might have to bite the bullet and be live bait. In that case, you'd need to have 2 Gates set up, one just in front of the other. The bait catches MR T's attention and gets him mad enough to follow. The bait hits the first portal (and it winks out) but the second portal is still standing in almost the same spot...and Mr T isn't that bright...after all, he eats and kills... he doesn't write books for a living ;) So maybe, with a little luck, he'll follow the bait into the "portal"... thusly placing himself directly in the middle of the blood wars :D Of course, that's providing your DM allows you to opene a Gate to that plane. Some planes bar Gate spells.
Anhur 02-23-04, 02:53 PM	Sorry dude, you're a munchkin. If you are doing something that would detract from the other player's fun in the game (like having inside knowledge about a beastie), then its clearly munchkining. When I DM, players cannot under any circumstance look up critters in the MM, even if they summon them. I really want to avoid having players compare stat blocks in detail trying to twink out the "optimal" summons. Its understood that if a player is caught looking up monster info, I will immediately heal the moster to full HP, and add a new ability. I've not had a problem with this in a long time, but its always clearly stated to new players in the group.
Raging Halfling 02-23-04, 10:19 PM	Sorry, above I think I missed the point of the thread. Yes, by peeking at the Monster Manual, you are in fact cheating and violating the spirit of the game. A non-munchkin method involving no metagaming would be to ask for as much information as possible in-game. Talk to anyone who is a specialist on monster lore what they know about its capabilities and then start piecing together your strategy. That would only make sense anyway, unless your party is extremely reckless in facing gargantuan creatures of legend, feared throughout the multiverse. :rolleyes:
Edymnion 02-23-04, 10:32 PM	Originally posted by adiaven Why not just have the whole party fly? sigh This is why I mentioned no DM in their right mind would let something like this work. Tarrasque has an Intelligence of 3. That isn't braindead hulk, that is low end PC intelligence. If you think the Tarrasque won't simply rip up trees to throw at you, or boulders, or anything else he can get his hands on to knock you out of the sky, you deserve the TPK you're gonna get ;)
LordHell 02-23-04, 10:41 PM	Originally posted by Raging Halfling I've got what I think should be a foolproof strategy. Buy a Mirror of Opposition and have a Wish prepared. Some brave soul flies up with the mirror and makes the Tarrasque see itself, then you get to wait and watch an epic duel between the Tarrasque...and itself! If the original Tarrasque wins, finish it off (it should be badly hurt), and then use a Wish to keep it from regenerating. There-easy, nobody even has to die, and it's not beyond the scope of a 20th level party. Unless you enlarged the mirror I'm not sure if the Tarrasque would even notice it. You realise how big it is right? There is also the possibility that if it met something it's own size, it might run away. Really it's "just" a big animal :) As for the OP, you're metagaming. A big no no.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 02-23-04, 10:55 PM	well its only metagaming if i use that knowledge in game right? and since we ahvent even encountered the beast yet i havent metagamed. Also i talked ot my DM and he informed me we would be told everything of general importance about the monster by the last guy who fought it. so im pretty much in the clear.
LordHell 02-23-04, 11:30 PM	Originally posted by Sir_Jack_Sparrow well its only metagaming if i use that knowledge in game right? and since we ahvent even encountered the beast yet i havent metagamed. Also i talked ot my DM and he informed me we would be told everything of general importance about the monster by the last guy who fought it. so im pretty much in the clear. Yes it's only metagaming if you used the knowledge in the game, but still, you must admit your intentions were pretty sinister. Why else would you peak at the stats of a monster before the big fight? :)
Edymnion 02-24-04, 12:26 PM	Originally posted by LordHell Really it's "just" a big animal :) No, it isn't, and it should not be played as such. It has HUMAN intelligence, not animal. There is a huge leap in thinking ability between Int 2 and Int 3. The Tarrasque is capable of thinking ahead, making plans, setting traps, and following tactics (even if they are just simple traps and tactics). Do you think that Epic level Half-Orc Barbarian decked out in Strength boosting gear that also has an Int of 3 is "just a big animal"? No, you treat him as being dangerous and at potentially cunning. Do not underestimate the intelligence of the Tarrasque. It may not be a genious, or even "normal" as far as intelligence goes, but its got more than enough smarts to be a playable PC, so you should treat it as such, and plan with that in mind. You pretty much can't KILL the Tarrasque, but you can defeat him. Remember, killing an opponent is the crudest, most base form of defeating them. You can win without ever hurting your opponent. The easiest way to defeat the Tarrasque is to use Plane Shift on him. Assuming you get past his SR and he fails his save, all you have to do is walk up and touch the big guy, and send him to another Plane. Heck, shift him to the Abyss and let him wreak unholy havoc in the depths of hell. Might even get a good god or three to owe you one that way.
Vega_Engi 02-24-04, 01:50 PM	WHAT I DO? It's very simple indeed. in your case i will tell the player, that the cleric has fought the "BIG ANGRY BRAGHATURA" monster. They won't find BRAGHATURAs in the MM. Guess, what template i will use for BRAGHATURA. P.S. Later i will tell that they actually defeated the tarrasque.
Urban Legend 02-24-04, 01:57 PM	Originally posted by Sir_Jack_Sparrow ...beat off a Taressque... :rofl: I'm sorry, I just couldn't get past that part. :rofl:
Avalongod 02-24-04, 02:14 PM	Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade Why do you have to kill the Tarrasque in order to beat it? Why don't you just wish it into the sun? It won't die there (immune to fire), but it won't be back to bother you. I disagree with the immune to the sun's "fire"....there's a big difference between a BBQ and nuclear fusion after all...
LordHell 02-24-04, 06:16 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion No, it isn't, and it should not be played as such. It has HUMAN intelligence, not animal. There is a huge leap in thinking ability between Int 2 and Int 3. The Tarrasque is capable of thinking ahead, making plans, setting traps, and following tactics (even if they are just simple traps and tactics). Do you think that Epic level Half-Orc Barbarian decked out in Strength boosting gear that also has an Int of 3 is "just a big animal"? No, you treat him as being dangerous and at potentially cunning. Do not underestimate the intelligence of the Tarrasque. It may not be a genious, or even "normal" as far as intelligence goes, but its got more than enough smarts to be a playable PC, so you should treat it as such, and plan with that in mind. You pretty much can't KILL the Tarrasque, but you can defeat him. Remember, killing an opponent is the crudest, most base form of defeating them. You can win without ever hurting your opponent. The easiest way to defeat the Tarrasque is to use Plane Shift on him. Assuming you get past his SR and he fails his save, all you have to do is walk up and touch the big guy, and send him to another Plane. Heck, shift him to the Abyss and let him wreak unholy havoc in the depths of hell. Might even get a good god or three to owe you one that way. I am not underestimating the intelligence of the Tarrasque, but rather, you are underestimating the intelligence of an Animal. Go watch Animal Planet of Discovery Channel a bit and come back and tell me an animal is incapable of those things you have mentioned. However, there is no way in hell it is going to be able to craft up plans to thawt the PC's unless they are amazingly absentminded, and something the size of an apartment building isn't exactly going to set a trap for them either. In terms of intelligence, it is NOT human intelligence. A Half Orc Barbarian with 3 intelligence might be something to fear, but hardly for it's "cunning", unless he had some instinctual cunning. Such a character would struggle to even be able to grasp the concept of speaking, and would probably have a lot of habbits and traits akin to an animal. When you're getting down that low, many things because purely reaction/action or instinct. Forethought doesn't really come into the equation I'm sorry. Even "smart" cats, while able to lay traps, don't have much forthought and still operate by the golden rule, the bigger and stronger creature wins. I'd imagine that a person with 3 intelligence would operate under this rule also.