Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neratos 06-13-06, 06:47 PM	I am currently playing a Warforged Cleric in a campaigne. Long story short, he was made a little defective and cannot harm anything living accepted this fact and took up pelor as his god and spends his time healing the weak and injured. The plan for the char in the begining was planning on going Cleric -> Combat Medic -> Herrophant -> Saint. I started out with the mithril body feat. Well another player is playing a Marshal and going into the Leadership PRC from the heroes of battle book. My character decided to swear fealty to this char and wanted to help him out by creating a medical core for his army he is building. In order to do this i need the leadership feat. The problem is i don't have any spare feats, cept my first feat which i choose because i had 1 spare. So is it asking to much to retrain my mithril body feat to antoher feat so that it opens a space for leadership? I was thinking of having a blacksmith remove my mithril armor parts, i would keep the armor check penalty and the arcane spell failure, but reduce it down to my basic +2 armor bonus for a normal WF.
Araciel 06-13-06, 07:03 PM	you are gimpin yourself?? not too much to ask if i were the dm then...if you are taking an overall penalty for something you want, i would definatly go along with it. but why, in the game world, is your character removing the mythril?
Neratos 06-13-06, 07:16 PM	Well the RP explanation is that I want to be closer in vulnerability as to those i help. Having skin of mithril makes me tougher than the humanoids i care for, so by stripping some of my protection i will be as vulnerable as they are. I realize even this is hard to swallow, but best i could think of. I mean i am already abiding to the rules of Vow of Non-Violence/Peace but won't have the feats for another 10 levels. Oh as far as gimping myself, i am already pretty damn gimp. at lvl 5 my stats are Str 9 Dex 14 Con 16 Wis 15 (added an ability point) Int 12 Cha 14. So i am very familiar with being gimp. :lol:
kelvinaw273 06-14-06, 03:30 AM	You do not need leadership to start an organisation. Leadership is for you to have cohorts, but anyone can attacte employees and train them ... or were you planning on not paying them?
Neratos 06-14-06, 04:36 PM	Well i was kinda hoping on forming a like minded organization. Kinda like a red cross deal. Figured leadership was the best road for that, and to be honest i can't really afford an npc's. Currently spend all my money on wands and stuff to keep the party alive, don't actually have any magic items for myself yet.
Gargs454 06-14-06, 05:18 PM	To be honest, I think that you are being more than reasonable here. I would likely have allowed you to remove the mithril without keeping the penalties, particularly since you are coming up with a valid in game explanation. I might say that the blacksmith is going to charge you X gold or something like that. So in any event, you are definitely being reasonable, now it just remains to be seen if your DM is willing to allow changes in feats. Personally when I DM I tend to be fairly generous in this regard just because I know how important feats/skills selections are for PrC's and the like.
Zendu 06-14-06, 07:38 PM	If you are creating a medical branch of an army, arent you helping cause people harm? ( a healed soldier is going to go back to kill) Being unattached and healing both sides is one of the red cross's advatages. Personally Id be hesitant to let you retrain a feat, unless you had jsut taken it. It more or less depends on how much I railroaded you with the uninjuring people thing. Since youve allready gone down that road, you might as well benifit from it, Vow of Non-Violence should help out your AC. Finally, I think you should give radiant servent of pelor a quick look, its the best healing prc out there imo,
Neratos 06-15-06, 01:18 AM	As far as healing both sides go, i would choose the lesser of 2 evils and support the good guys. I realize the irony of healing those who would do harm, but your really hard press to avoid that. I basically try and save those who my party has cut down, and if they swear an oath to me that they will not bring harm to me or my allies i heal them and send them on their merry way. If they break the vow, then i do nothing to save them when my party decends on them. I thought about the radiant servant, but Combat medic fits my military back ground and honestly i find it to be a better healer than radiant. The combat medics healing kickers and ability to spontanious caste heal spells, far better than getting to caste my domain slots empowered and maximized. The big boon of the combat medic is that (once i attain my saint status and my vow of non violence) i can hit you up with a close wounds and healing kick it with a sanctuary with a DC of 21+wis mod. The radiant is far better at dealing with undead on the other hand.
TheRedRobedWizard 06-15-06, 09:37 AM	Actually, it would take a very high powered Artificer or Spellcaster to remove your Mithril body. It's not *plating*, it's Mithril suffused throughout your entire structure. It's not so much like "I want new skin" as "I want a new musculo-skeletal system with a new paint job". I would allow it, but it'd be expensive; plus you didn't meet the prereqs for the feat you're going to switch it out for when you got the feat. I thought that was one of the big things of retraining. -TRRW
tsuyoshikentsu 06-15-06, 11:21 AM	Hate to tell you, but retraining only allows you to take a feat you'd have otherwise qualified for at that level. So retraining Mithril Body (1st only) into Leadership (6th+) is a no-go.
Neratos 06-15-06, 11:37 AM	That isn't what i was asking for. I wanted to change out my first level feat for another one that i was gonna take later, opening space for leadership at a higher level. Basically was gonna swap mithril body for combat casting and then take leadership once i reached lvl 6. Otherwise i was gonna use my 6th lvl feat for combat casting. Also i am not asking to have every ounce of mithril removed from my body, just the armor plates that protect me. Even after having those removed, i would stil have mithril through out my body, which is why i think i would keep the armor check penalty.
kelvinaw273 06-15-06, 12:39 PM	That isn't what i was asking for. I wanted to change out my first level feat for another one that i was gonna take later, opening space for leadership at a higher level. Basically was gonna swap mithril body for combat casting and then take leadership once i reached lvl 6. Otherwise i was gonna use my 6th lvl feat for combat casting. Also i am not asking to have every ounce of mithril removed from my body, just the armor plates that protect me. Even after having those removed, i would stil have mithril through out my body, which is why i think i would keep the armor check penalty. You are basically asking to swap a feat taken at first level for a new one now, and only your DM can make that decision. How, exactly, would losing your mithral plating give you any other abilities? It isn't like retraining, you are asking for in effect a straight swap out. If I was DM I would generally say no to this. I don't see the RP logic in it: Mithral plating is less a feat than a natural feature of your race (or your particular design) that occupies a feat slot, while Combat Casting is a learned skill. To swap the feat slot like this is just metagaming with no real logic behind it. If it was a feat you had not used (say you took the Blind Fight feat at 1st level, but had never actually used it), then I would have less of a problem, but mithral plating is definitely something your warfarged cannot overlook.
Neratos 06-15-06, 02:15 PM	Combat casting can be explained because the process of removing the mithril plates would cause me great pain, which through meditation i learned to focus my mind on a specific task at hand. Which can then be applied to casting during combat, from my experence i gained the ability to focus. I could also go with dodge feat, and say that by removing key plates from my body, i gained a slight increase in agility. Or a whole slew of feats, that during the process of the armor removal, i spent my time studying books (for a metamagic feat), learning how to act in my new body (phsyical related feat), or communing with my god ( for a divine/exalted feat). It is nearly possible to explain almost any feat change logically and with story line. If i was metagaming this, i wouldn't call for the harsh penalty, gold cost ect ect. Nor would i choose to give up such a powerful feat, in favor less powerful ones. I also wouldn't be RPing a feat that i cannot aquire till lvl 15. The whole reason i want the leadership feat is for RP story line reasons that i have developed over the past 3-4 sessions. Hell originally wasn't planning on any of this, but through story i have taken up the path of what i have described. The logic behind almost any retraining can be explained. Whether or not the DM allows it is his decision, i just want to be sure i am not being just silly asking for this retraining.
anarco_rata 06-15-06, 03:57 PM	I wouldn't allow it. As a warforged, you don't have a "plating" that mirthril is your skin. Removing it will just be causing damage, and when healed (or repaired...specially repaired), the mirthril plating will just grow back. Maybe, MAYBE, I would allow a very high leveled artificer to perform some kind of ritual (that would require the special forge used to create warforged) and change your mind to another new warforged body. But still, i find it a little dumb. Is like droping a heritage feat, it doesn't make too much sense.
Cifer 06-15-06, 04:09 PM	As a warforged, you don't have a "plating" that mirthril is your skin. Removing it will just be causing damage, and when healed (or repaired...specially repaired), the mirthril plating will just grow back. Maybe, MAYBE, I would allow a very high leveled artificer to perform some kind of ritual (that would require the special forge used to create warforged) and change your mind to another new warforged body. But still, i find it a little dumb. Is like droping a heritage feat, it doesn't make too much sense. I disagree. Of course, there would probably be an artificer involved and not a low-level one, but I'd rather ask the other question: Who is harmed by this? Anyway, the fact that he is a cleric of Pelor indicates to me that this is not an Eberron campaign, so the warforged might be changed in flavor. This might mean e.g. that it could be easier for artificers to change the shapes of constructs after them being built. And for explaining the combat casting: It always was relatively hard to force your metallic fingers into the delicate gestures needed by spells - not so hard that you would suffer ASF because you are a cleric, but hard. Now that you don't need to concentrate upon that, it is easier for you to remain watching the battlefield for people wanting to attack you while casting.
Neratos 06-15-06, 06:25 PM	I wouldn't allow it. As a warforged, you don't have a "plating" that mirthril is your skin. Removing it will just be causing damage, and when healed (or repaired...specially repaired), the mirthril plating will just grow back. Maybe, MAYBE, I would allow a very high leveled artificer to perform some kind of ritual (that would require the special forge used to create warforged) and change your mind to another new warforged body. But still, i find it a little dumb. Is like droping a heritage feat, it doesn't make too much sense. I understand where your coming from. I am basically removing protective plating from my armor, reducing it down to a +2 armor. Repair dmg does not regrow lost body parts. If i recieved lets say a regen or a make whole spell then yes i could see where it could grow back. As far as retraining heritage feats, the character simply chooses to repress his herritage instead of embracing it. Like with the sorcerer dragon blood feats, you could retrain the 1st lvl one by stating you are choosing to abandon your herritage in favor for something else.
INeedNoSalt 06-15-06, 08:28 PM	I don't think you could retrain a feat gained at level 1 for a feat that requires level 6, can you? You're not eligible for Leadership at level 1.
Cifer 06-15-06, 08:38 PM	@INeedNoSalt Let's just say that reading a thread completely before posting is considered polite. That isn't what i was asking for. I wanted to change out my first level feat for another one that i was gonna take later, opening space for leadership at a higher level. Basically was gonna swap mithril body for combat casting and then take leadership once i reached lvl 6. Otherwise i was gonna use my 6th lvl feat for combat casting.
was_fired 06-15-06, 09:02 PM	I would allow this in an instant as a DM. The RPing is great, and it's perfectly balanced as well.
Far_Traveler 06-15-06, 09:21 PM	Lets think of this in another way. IF he is already level six i can rationalize it in this way on two levels. He gains leadership by making this tremendous sacrifice of his being to make himself more vulnerable, much like his followers. Mechanically it is not a direct swap, it is merely like a cake. Blah Chocolate Combat casting Strawberry Mithril body Vanilla Putting another layer would cause it to collapse(all layers same size), yet you want banana(leadership). you decide to remove Vanilla, and after a delicate procedure of removing the vanilla(mithril), you now have: Leadership I Blah V Combat Casting ^^^^^^^^^ <leftover vanilla layer(penalties) It's not the best cake, but you did what you could.
INeedNoSalt 06-15-06, 09:35 PM	@INeedNoSalt Let's just say that reading a thread completely before posting is considered polite. Being clear in the OP is generally considered a good idea, too. Personally, I don't think it's cool to let a character just randomly swap out feats. Mithril Body is what he's made of. If he somehow gets chunks of his body torn off, he doesn't deserve a free feat for it.
celtredleg 06-15-06, 10:42 PM	Considering how hard it usualy is to get people to play support and not killers, I would solve this a diferent way in my game. Keep your mithril, and be granted leadership by pelor just for the thought of the sacrifice. But then I always allow direct granting of feats for outstanding play, and it sounds likew you have given up a great deal for everybody else. Timme for you to get some now.
Neratos 06-15-06, 11:27 PM	Being clear in the OP is generally considered a good idea, too. Personally, I don't think it's cool to let a character just randomly swap out feats. Mithril Body is what he's made of. If he somehow gets chunks of his body torn off, he doesn't deserve a free feat for it. Not quite sure where you are getting the randomness of the situation. And how does giving the benifits of a feat up equal a free additional feat? I already stated i do not plan on removing every ounce of mithril from my body, just the protective armor plates. Which warforge do have, which is why they have an AC bonus. Also in the OP i stated i was not planing on swapping mithril body for leadership. I quoted for ease of reference below. So is it asking to much to retrain my mithril body feat to antoher feat so that it opens a space for leadership In response to everyone else, thank you very much for your replies. With your opinions you have allowed me to generate a decent argument to propose to my DM. Whether or not he says yes or no, i will let you guys know. Thanks again for your responses.
INeedNoSalt 06-16-06, 02:28 AM	Not quite sure where you are getting the randomness of the situation. And how does giving the benifits of a feat up equal a free additional feat? I already stated i do not plan on removing every ounce of mithril from my body, just the protective armor plates. Which warforge do have, which is why they have an AC bonus. Except the plates aren't just stuck on you, they're part of you. If they weren't, they would be equipment, not gear. You can't just 'take off' a feat.
aftercrescent 06-16-06, 04:14 AM	Except the plates aren't just stuck on you, they're part of you. If they weren't, they would be equipment, not gear. You can't just 'take off' a feat. But that's one of the points of PHB2, to allow players to swap feats in situations exactly like this. He had a plan, and through RPing, he has decided to change something. It makes in game sense, and he's willing to pay for it, so it is possible.
Neratos 06-16-06, 09:43 AM	Except the plates aren't just stuck on you, they're part of you. If they weren't, they would be equipment, not gear. You can't just 'take off' a feat. A dragon blooded creature who took the wings feat at first level, could RP that his character cuts his wings off, so that he could change the feat. I think you have a problem with retraining as a whole. The whole point of retraining was to introduce a bit of flexibility into the feat selection process. So that when new books, changes in story line, or changes in campaign can be adjusted to.
Grabuto 06-16-06, 11:40 AM	Were I the DM I would get a detailed account of how you intended to use your leadership feat. Then I would introduce NPCs and game elements to allow you to have your organization without using the feat. Provided it isn't stepping on the other player's fun your roleplaying should be rewarded. I think it is preferably to have things like your organization occur as a nature outgrowth of the campaign rather than being simply purchased as a feat. It is also helpful that you are so motivated in helping the party. It makes it an easier decision to give you what you want since it is likely it would be used to advance the story and help the other characters. Finally, I don't like the idea of getting rid of your armor. No doubt it is legal per RAW. However, the armor is part of your physiology rather than simply plates covering your body. (per ad naseum discussion on other boards, supported by Keith Baker) Certainly a semi-plausible story can be contrived to justify mutilating your muscles and skin (though a black smith wouldn't cut it), but in your case I don't see the point. The story arc you are creating for your character is not imbalancing so the contrivance of removing the plate hurts the story more than it helps some arbitrary sense of "balance."
Far_Traveler 06-16-06, 12:17 PM	:allalone: why is it that the only place that anyone sees my posts is in challenge threads(sometimes not even there)? are my posts so insignificant that there is no need to respond? :allalone:
INeedNoSalt 06-16-06, 02:44 PM	A dragon blooded creature who took the wings feat at first level, could RP that his character cuts his wings off, so that he could change the feat. I think you have a problem with retraining as a whole. The whole point of retraining was to introduce a bit of flexibility into the feat selection process. So that when new books, changes in story line, or changes in campaign can be adjusted to. I want to know what sort of RP situation requires self mutilation in exchange for a feat. "I cut off my wings, so now I get +4 to initiative!" Doesn't really work unless your character is drawing from the Book of Vile Darkness. I understand the point of retraining - I just don't agree that you should be able to train out a feat that isn't learned. The ability isn't trained, so you can't unlearn it - it's part of you. I wouldn't give a human player a free feat if he lost his arms, just like I wouldn't let a warforged take a free feat if he decided he had to be unarmored.
Neratos 06-16-06, 04:15 PM	I want to know what sort of RP situation requires self mutilation in exchange for a feat. "I cut off my wings, so now I get +4 to initiative!" Doesn't really work unless your character is drawing from the Book of Vile Darkness. I understand the point of retraining - I just don't agree that you should be able to train out a feat that isn't learned. The ability isn't trained, so you can't unlearn it - it's part of you. I wouldn't give a human player a free feat if he lost his arms, just like I wouldn't let a warforged take a free feat if he decided he had to be unarmored. You keep saying free feat, as though one is getting away with something sneaky. How about this, I go find a psion, and pay for reformation and change the feat that way. Would that be better for you? The mutalation is an ingame explanation of the loss of a feat that altered the character physically. In stead of calling it retraining you could say it is a ritual, or something else. Retraining is the mechanical term used to describe the ability to alter a feat select a character made and wishes to alter. It does not mean you are limited to feats that are learned.
Ridgway 06-16-06, 07:03 PM	As a DM, I'd just allow you to start the red-cross thing in the army. If you look for volunteers, I'm sure there would be people more than willing to help you out for no cost more than food and bed. If you're willing to dish out the cash to take the armor off, I don't see how this is any different. The reason I would go this route is because, as you said yourself, it is mainly RPing. I think playing a character that can only heal is a very unique and interesting choice. If anything I would reward you with this for playing such a different character. I agree that taking off the mythral plating could in some way benefit your character, although the rules do not support that.
INeedNoSalt 06-16-06, 07:41 PM	You keep saying free feat, as though one is getting away with something sneaky. How about this, I go find a psion, and pay for reformation and change the feat that way. Would that be better for you? The mutalation is an ingame explanation of the loss of a feat that altered the character physically. In stead of calling it retraining you could say it is a ritual, or something else. Retraining is the mechanical term used to describe the ability to alter a feat select a character made and wishes to alter. It does not mean you are limited to feats that are learned. I understand this. I just don't think certain feats should be able to be retrained - like feats that apply to your body. You understand that the rules support what you want, so that's obviously not the point of the thread - you asked if you're asking too much, and if I were running the game, I would probably say yes. But I probably wouldn't force you to take leadership for what you propose to do, either. (Unless you wanted a cohort.)
kelvinaw273 06-16-06, 07:41 PM	Combat casting can be explained because the process of removing the mithril plates would cause me great pain, which through meditation i learned to focus my mind on a specific task at hand. Which can then be applied to casting during combat, from my experence i gained the ability to focus. I could also go with dodge feat, and say that by removing key plates from my body, i gained a slight increase in agility. Or a whole slew of feats, that during the process of the armor removal, i spent my time studying books (for a metamagic feat), learning how to act in my new body (phsyical related feat), or communing with my god ( for a divine/exalted feat). It is nearly possible to explain almost any feat change logically and with story line. If i was metagaming this, i wouldn't call for the harsh penalty, gold cost ect ect. Nor would i choose to give up such a powerful feat, in favor less powerful ones. I also wouldn't be RPing a feat that i cannot aquire till lvl 15. The whole reason i want the leadership feat is for RP story line reasons that i have developed over the past 3-4 sessions. Hell originally wasn't planning on any of this, but through story i have taken up the path of what i have described. The logic behind almost any retraining can be explained. Whether or not the DM allows it is his decision, i just want to be sure i am not being just silly asking for this retraining. Even allowing for this rather tenious explanation, exactly what is your warforged's reason for wanting his mithral plating removed, if it is not to gain Combat Casting? Similarly, why can't he just gain combat casting as a free feat for being tortured? This sounds like pure sophistory (that is, you deided what you wanted and then came up with a justification) rather then RPing, which it certainly isn't. Sorry, no. If you want a group of followers, RP finding and recruiting them in-game, and you may find that you don't need the Leadership feat.
Neratos 06-16-06, 08:21 PM	I am not stating that you would get that feat due to the torture. I was simply giving an example of how one could roleplay the retraining of the feat. And yes those where spure of the moment explanations, because i cannot plan out my RPing of this process. Because if the DM does accept this plan of action i am sure he will want to have some input into it. Even a person has the Leadership feat, you still have to RP in game recruitment and maintainment of such an organization. The feat simply employs mechanics for managing such a thing and balance out the gain in net resources. It takes a character with a significant leadership score to even start coming close to a dozen followers. I have already in game donated enough gold to a local church to have a medical ward added on and named after me. The leadership feats basically gives the RPing a back bone, and something that can be rellied on when questions are raised in logistics and your ability to hold the attention of a group of followers beyond gold coin.
INeedNoSalt 06-17-06, 03:32 AM	Even a person has the Leadership feat, you still have to RP in game recruitment and maintainment of such an organization. The feat simply employs mechanics for managing such a thing and balance out the gain in net resources. It takes a character with a significant leadership score to even start coming close to a dozen followers. I have already in game donated enough gold to a local church to have a medical ward added on and named after me. I don't see why you need the Leadership feat to teach people how to heal others in battle, though. Your point that Leadership and RP have to work together to give you followers is wrong. From a purely technical standpoint, the Feat simply gives it to you, no questions. That's how Feats work. But that's not the point, 'cuz any DM worth his salt will make you RP it. The point is that you can RP gaining followers and not necessarily need the feat. Think of, say, a Level 3 Noble king. Can he not rule his kingdom because he's not level 6?
Neratos 06-17-06, 11:53 AM	In the DMG it states that a player must recruit his followers and cohorts. It does not say they automatically show up on his door the day after he gaines the feat. A thrallherd does that as a class ability but not leadership. The feat entitles you to al cohort and followers, but you still have to find them. If your out in the jungles with primitive villages near by, and you want a wizard cohort you must make an effort to seek one out. They do not come to you simply cause you have the feat. Also you must keep their loyalty, if you treat your follower/cohort like dirt, they are allowed to leave. The feat does not bound them to you. Yes one can easily just train ppl to heal and take care of the wounded. It is another matter to expect them to follow you onto the battle feild to care for ppl during a war. Leadership ensures their initial loyalty to you and provides mechanics on how many you can lead. Leadership is a RP feat with mechanics behind it.