Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 04-12-04, 09:17 PM	My character was approaching a minotaur holding a cursed weapon with the intention of sundering it. I asked the minotaur to hold out the weapon and i would destroy it, he held out the weapon and i approached. when i got within 30 feet my DM says that the minotaur charges and overruns then does a full round attack (as per Dire Charge from epic level handbook) when we discuss this he agrees that he cannot combine dire charge and overrun, so he just does a dire charge. but even still the minotaur hits me with a horn attack, then 4 attacks with his sword, the 4 sword attacks alone should be the full round attack should they not? where did the horn come from? and finally My DM says that i was approaching peacefully so im flatfooted and no initiative can be rolled until after the minotaur attacks. This is where i really ahve a problem cause well it seems absolutely rediculous that i would be flatfooted while approaching a minotaur covered in blood holing a cursed sword that i know makes him go crazy killing things. so am i the moron for arguing that i should not be flatfooted?
Kethka 04-12-04, 09:22 PM	The minotaur CAN take all his sword attacks plus his horns, since the horns are a secondary natural weapon (he has to use them at a penalty though; -5 to hit, or -2 if the minotaur has the multiattack feat) About the second part, though... just because you werent screaming bloody murder and charging him doesn't mean you are a moron. Even if you *weren't* expecting something, you are both totally aware of each other and so the minotaur does not get a surprise round; you would both roll initiative to see if you can react fast enough (that's what it's there for after all!) If he did win initiative though, then you would be flat-footed (But I'm guessing you already knew that.) Hope that helps!
Gingerbread Guy 04-12-04, 09:27 PM	Hiho, On the initiative thing, though - yes, your DM was just being mean. You weren't caught by surprise, you were aware of the attack [unless you're blind, deaf and stupid]. Losing Initiative is one thing, surprise attacks are another. ~Ginger
Salla 04-12-04, 09:35 PM	You're right, DM is wrong. You were both aware of one another, so there should have been an Initiative check to see who went first.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 04-12-04, 09:37 PM	Oh yeah and now he just informed me that it dosent matter cause his lowest to hit roll was a 50, on his second attack, so this minotaur mathematically has at least a +55 to hit so now i wonder what kind of crack my dm is on, either he is cheating, or cant make up a proper character, or decided to toss us up against something so far out of our leauge its not funny edit im stupid, if his lowest attack roll was a 50 on the second attack and he would need at least a +55 to get higher than that on the 6th attack then he definitely is cheating.
Salla 04-12-04, 09:40 PM	If that's a cursed weapon, I WANT ONE.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 04-12-04, 09:46 PM	Well i just tried to figure out where this minotaur may have gotten a +55 to hit, and this is what i came up with say he is a 40th level barbarian, thats a 30, add in 4 from weapon focus (normal greater and epic) say the weapon has gotten bigger +6 even, thats a 40 total, and then a strength of waht 40 total? yeah that brings it to the +55 to hit minimum by the way from all the hints the sword should be at most a +1 or 2, it was a cursed weapon we buried a long time ago, when we were like level 5 or so
Nick Soapdish 04-12-04, 10:19 PM	Originally posted by Sir_Jack_Sparrow Oh yeah and now he just informed me that it dosent matter cause his lowest to hit roll was a 50, on his second attack, so this minotaur mathematically has at least a +55 to hit so now i wonder what kind of crack my dm is on, either he is cheating, or cant make up a proper character, or decided to toss us up against something so far out of our leauge its not funny edit im stupid, if his lowest attack roll was a 50 on the second attack and he would need at least a +55 to get higher than that on the 6th attack then he definitely is cheating. Not following your math there. If his lowest attack roll was a 50 and was on his second attack, he could have as low as a +46 :eek:. The four sword attacks being at +46/41/36/31 and rolling a 20 on the fourth attack. Don't know where the 6th attack comes from at all. But you definitely got jobbed on the "surprise round". He should've rolled initiative for when it charged and the minotaur should've only gotten one attack because it's a surprise round. He theoretically could've readied a partial charge for when your character is within 30 feet, but that's bending the rules a bit since you can't ready an action outside of initiative and you can only make a partial charge when you can only make partial actions (such as a surprise round or when slowed). I'd be willing to make that ruling and have done so (as have the players since the alternative can be frustrating). Example: An NPC is advancing to parley with the party. No initiative has been rolled since it's still non-combat. A character decides to attack and Quick Draws his bow to shoot. The NPC sees him acting so initiative is rolled. The NPC wins and charges the would-be archer. Result: One steamed player. But even then, that only allows one attack as part of the partial charge. He doesn't get to continue laying waste to your character until after initiative is rolled.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 04-12-04, 10:32 PM	well there is a 6th attack, he went back and added in a bite attack since that 6th attack was at least a 51 and a hit that means best case scenario (since it also wasent a crit) so thats 51- 19 = 32 on the 6th attack (he made a gore witha horn, a bite and 4 sword attacks) so thats 57/52/47/42/37/32
Tsuul 04-13-04, 02:49 AM	The bite and the gore do not go down the normal values of iterative attacks. They start right back up at your bab and get adjusted for multiple natural attacks. So do not consider those to be the 5th and 6th attacks in a chain of iterative attacks.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 04-13-04, 03:38 PM	Hmm i never knew that about natural attacks, that makes most monster races pretty powerful dosent it, cause now they can have their full natural attacks, and all their regular atacks from weapons carried. but still that means he would ahve to ahve at elast a +46 to hit, so if 15 came from a str of 40 25 from levels, and the other 6 from the sword/feats that still means it was what a level 30 barbarian minotaur ECL what 39? where are natural attacks described do you know? i would like to read it.
Sisyfos 04-13-04, 06:03 PM	You can do either your natural attack action or your iterative attacks. Minotaurs wielding swords and using iterative attacks with them do not get their natural attacks in addition. Look at the monster manual to find all the necessary examples for this. Sisyfos
Nick Soapdish 04-13-04, 07:07 PM	Actually, the minotaur's full attack is described in the MM as being greataxe +9/+4 melee (3d6+6/x3) and gore +4 melee (1d8+2). I don't know where the heck the bite came from. The minotaur could be a CR 24 - 20th level barbarian + 4 adjustment for being a minotaur. +19 BAB for level +2 EBAB +20 bonus for Strength - 18 base strength +8 racial + 5 from level +5 inherent + 6 enhancement +8 mighty rage = 50 Strength +1 Weapon Focus +3 magic, but cursed axe +1 luckstone +1 pale green prism ioun stone -1 size ---- +46 To say that's a pretty elite build for an NPC would be an understatement though. Personally, an NPC with an 18 base score would be pretty rare and it'd be tough for an NPC to get the inherent bonus unless they're a spellcaster. It can be pushed higher though if the minotaur even more optimal items, such as something granting a higher luck bonus or if the axe gives a higher enhancement bonus. Even though he didn't critical doesn't mean that he didn't roll a threat. He could've failed on the confirmation (theoretically, although depending on your character's sAC it might've needed to be a 1).
Dipree Xarann 04-13-04, 07:10 PM	Long story short, your DM gave you the shaft big time. :nonono:
Anthor Del Niera 04-13-04, 09:25 PM	Inquiry, for my own sanity: What level are you?
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 04-14-04, 06:08 AM	Level 26 drow ranger/fighter
dantedarkstar 04-14-04, 07:03 AM	26th level drow ? So, ECl 28 ? Let's see. Minoutaur, 6HD, +2LA = 8. So he could have easily level 20th-21st. 6 Montrous Humanoid HD = +6 BAB 20 Barbarian levels = +14 BAB, +3 EAB Total BAB+EAB = +23 Str 18, +8 racial, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement, +5 level, +8 rage = 50 Str (as pointed eariler) He could also have perhaps more than +6 Str boosting item. After all, at ECL 28 it's not that hard to have. 50Str = +20 to hit As for now, we have +43 to hit. Further, add the enhancement bonus, ioun stone for +1 competence, and you have at least +45 to hit If we throw in Weapon Focus, it's +46. If we add Epic Weapon Focus (he is well above 20ECL/20HD, whichever you GM considers threshold, so epic feats aren't to be ignored) that's +48 With a bit higher enhancement of weapon (curse might have amplified it's power in some way when it was wielded by the minotaur), it could be +50 to even +53. If he had Str boosting item +10, not +6, it would be possibly as high as +55. But such a formidable combatant as minotaur should be expected to have around +50 to hit around that ECL. As for surprise round: 1.There shouldn't be surprise round, as has been said here earlier. It should be initative. 2.Even if there was surprise round, it is Standard Action round, not normal, full round. So no dire charging. So yes, GM pulled that out quite poorly. Note to Nick Soapdish: Luckstone doesn't grant bonus to hit.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 04-14-04, 09:12 AM	Actually if you read dire charge it specifically states you may make a full round attack as part of a charge in the surprise round. Honestly my main point of contention had really been the surprise round, especially after sme of your posts it is obvious the minotaur could have that high a bab. But it is highly unlikely he could have acted before me, especially when you consider the initiative the dm rolled for the minotaur after the "surprise round" was a 10 and my init is 16+d20. I am still confised cause there have been some varying replies posted here, can the minotaur take 4 attacks with his weapon, and use his horns and a bite attack? the really odd thing however is the minotaur never killed me, and i (quite likely) could have taken the minotaur apart even after that surprise round, but it just really annoyed me that i had to deal with taking that surprise round int he first place.
misfits_phreek 04-14-04, 10:36 AM	Interesting thread. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading it, and all the responses. Now let me put my two cp's in. First, the DM is always right. But in this case, I think you must have :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: your DM off somehow. He jobbed you like no other DM has. Maybe he thought you were too powerful? Or maybe you ate the last slice of pizza at the game table? Who knows... Now, while the DM is always right, I think in this instance he was way out of his skull. I'd approach him privately, and ask him why exactly he did this. And be sure to assure him that you won't use the conversation as PK (Player Knowledge) for future sessions. Maybe you two might be able to come to some sort of understanding. And by all means, DON'T be argumentative in the convo. That just creates a bad gaming atmosphere. Marshall your evidence, present a logical argument for why you think that scenario was wrong, and listen closely to his response. Perhaps you two can come up with a logical conclusion. Good luck!!!!
Demon Lightfoot 04-14-04, 06:49 PM	You should sunder your DM. If that's a cursed weapon, I want three.
Sisyfos 04-14-04, 08:01 PM	Originally posted by Sir_Jack_Sparrow I am still confised cause there have been some varying replies posted here, can the minotaur take 4 attacks with his weapon, and use his horns and a bite attack? The cause for the confusion must be that after reading the minotaur description I saw that the damned bugger is an exception to the rule. This is from SRD: Full Attack: Greataxe +9/+4 melee (3d6+6/x3) and gore +4 melee (1d8+2) So minotaurs can make both iterative attacks and natural weapon attack in the same round. And this even after it has been clarified time and again that the monsters and players who get natural attacks can make either natural attacks or iterative attacks. Oh well, Sisyfos
SpellMaster 04-14-04, 08:22 PM	I'm going to ignore the whole insane attack bonus bit, and get back to the original bit about the initiative. What you should have done, as a player, was to tell the DM that you ready an action to do X if the minotaur does Y. This would mean that you are not flatfooted (which you were clearly not!), and pretty much require that you have rolled initiative. What your DM should done the moment the two of you became aware of each other is get you to roll initiative, but that might give away that he will attack, so he should have at least allowed you to roll initiative when the minotaur was about to charge. But, the best to way to prevent these types of situations is by being proactive. Tell your DM "I will be ready in case the minotaur charges at me." or something, so that you are definately not flatfooted.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 04-14-04, 09:09 PM	While that is good advice Spellmaster, its also in a way bad advice, if you have to spell out every action your character des, with nothing being reasonably assumed, then the game gets bogged down in silly details. anyway i was 100 feet away and i declared my action (which was to move up to the minotar and then on ym next turn sunder his weapon) I have a 60' movement so moving upw as one turn for me, in the middle of my turn the minotaur charged me and did a dire charge (full round attack) i dont see how anyway he could be less flatfoted without me saying and im not flatfooted. in the end though my DM and i kinda worked this out when i convinced him that a surprise round only happens when characters are unaware of others. since we knew where the other was you cant be flatfoted and surprsed (he just thought since the action was not predicted it must be a surprise)
SpellMaster 04-14-04, 10:42 PM	I realize my advice is not the best in the world, but it does prevent this kind of situation. But its good to hear you worked it out with your DM.