Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Venion 02-13-08, 07:38 AM	Hello everyone, I just need to know if I'm being a jerk in this situation, should I be found a jerk I will be apologizing to the person mentioned later in this post. We just had our first game for a new campaign taking place in Eberron last night, the group consists of 6 people, a Elven Rogue/Wizard, an either Elven or Human Wizard, a Shifter Rogue, a Drow Knight, a Drow Duskblade (me), and a Dragonthingy Bard... We all started at level 5 (except for LA adjustment people who start at the appropriate level.) I have a slight issue with the Bard and chances are he'll read this but I've already made it clear what I think about his character anyways so I doubt it'll be a problem. He likes to brag about what he can do with his buff songs and how strong they are but whenever he does I just can't help but utter the word "Munch-kin" out loud for all to hear. The reason for this is due to a few things. 1) He has taken a Dragon race (which just grants him Low-Light Vision instead of the bonus skills, other than that he's pretty identical to a human) just for the sole purpose to accessing a feat... Alright, it's just a race so that's not all that bad... He's also taking feats to buff up his + attack roll bonus song, which the feat he took requiring this race allows him to trade it in for +1d6 fire damage/per +1 bonus, he's going all out to buff this up as much as possible. (From what he's said yesterday, he's getting a +8 bonus at level five due to bard level/feats, which means +8d6, yes this helps the whole party but it just doesn't sit well with me...) 2) He level dipped once into Dragon Shaman so that the feat he took from being a dragon race changed it's damage to Sonic, just because it's a rarely resisted damage, his RP excuse is, well, he started as a Shaman but lost faith in it so he went to Bard. (yet still uses all the Dragon Shaman stuff he has) This one irks me a little just because I'm not a fan of level dipping... 3) He chose the alignment Chaotic Good for the sole purpose of choosing a feat from the exhaulted deads or Complete Divine I am not sure which book. Now, this normally would not bother me except he is traveling in a highly evil campaign and has openly admitted a bit into the first game that he has his feat so he doesn't care if his alignment changes... Am I just being a jerk in calling him a munch-kin? Maybe I just have a stupid thought process where each decision excluding gear needs to make some semblance of RP sense.
The_Wyld 02-13-08, 08:00 AM	Hello everyone, I just need to know if I'm being a jerk in this situation, should I be found a jerk I will be apologizing to the person mentioned later in this post. We just had our first game for a new campaign taking place in Eberron last night, the group consists of 6 people, a Elven Rogue/Wizard, an either Elven or Human Wizard, a Shifter Rogue, a Drow Knight, a Drow Duskblade (me), and a Dragonthingy Bard... We all started at level 5 (except for LA adjustment people who start at the appropriate level.) I have a slight issue with the Bard and chances are he'll read this but I've already made it clear what I think about his character anyways so I doubt it'll be a problem. He likes to brag about what he can do with his buff songs and how strong they are but whenever he does I just can't help but utter the word "Munch-kin" out loud for all to hear. The reason for this is due to a few things. 1) He has taken a Dragon race (which just grants him Low-Light Vision instead of the bonus skills, other than that he's pretty identical to a human) just for the sole purpose to accessing a feat... Alright, it's just a race so that's not all that bad... He's also taking feats to buff up his + attack roll bonus song, which the feat he took requiring this race allows him to trade it in for +1d6 fire damage/per +1 bonus, he's going all out to buff this up as much as possible. (From what he's said yesterday, he's getting a +8 bonus at level five due to bard level/feats, which means +8d6, yes this helps the whole party but it just doesn't sit well with me...) 2) He level dipped once into Dragon Shaman so that the feat he took from being a dragon race changed it's damage to Sonic, just because it's a rarely resisted damage, his RP excuse is, well, he started as a Shaman but lost faith in it so he went to Bard. (yet still uses all the Dragon Shaman stuff he has) This one irks me a little just because I'm not a fan of level dipping... 3) He chose the alignment Chaotic Good for the sole purpose of choosing a feat from the exhaulted deads or Complete Divine I am not sure which book. Now, this normally would not bother me except he is traveling in a highly evil campaign and has openly admitted a bit into the first game that he has his feat so he doesn't care if his alignment changes... Am I just being a jerk in calling him a munch-kin? Maybe I just have a stupid thought process where each decision excluding gear needs to make some semblance of RP sense. If your info is correct then yes, you are completly justfied in calling him a munchkin.
Kanosint 02-13-08, 08:03 AM	Well, I don't have the books with me, but the first two points don't seem that bothersome. The third point.... I have problems with that... So the question is, does he RP well? If not, by all means call him a munchkin. I openly admit that I powergame, but never at the cost of RPing... I play a character, not a bunch of numbers. An effective character, but still, not numbers. If he's playing nothing but numbers, hit him with a fox.
Venion 02-13-08, 08:29 AM	Well... To be honest, in my opinion, he does not role play well... He's just not very initiated to do any role play, ALL of his characters are always the quiet types that kinda just sit back and follow everyone else, most he really does it just yap out quick witty remarks should the opportunity arise to make a joke, which is severely annoying during serious moments (Majority of the people in the group do the joke thing though, but they also get into role play a lot as well).
sheadunne 02-13-08, 08:32 AM	It's my understanding that if you lose a prerequisite for a feat you lose the use of that feat. So if CG was a requirement for the feat and he became CN then he would lose the ability to use that feat. Also, if it's an evil champaign, just kill his character and move on, I assume you're evil. lol
Petesand 02-13-08, 08:43 AM	Well, personally I think it sounds like both statements are true. The guy's a munchkin for sure, but it honestly sounds like you're being a real jerk about it. I mean, you're not the only one in the game. If this is the way he enjoys playing then who are you to tell him otherwise? You yourself said he's the quiet type, so I'd imagine he doesn't get in the way of roleplay. And, as for the jokes, either lighten up or ask him politely to stop? There's really no need to go ranting on the forums, especially when you suspect he'll read the thread, that's just a bit mean.
Venion 02-13-08, 08:45 AM	I'm Neutral Evil, I do whatever I can get away with, our Shifter Rogue is Chaotic Neutral borderline evil, likewise with our Rogue/Wizard I believe, not to sure on the exact alignment of our pure Wizard but he tries to get us all to let him lob fireballs at buildings, people, etc... The Drow Knight is Lawful Evil so he has his own morals, and has to follow the Knight's Code. We've supposedly known each other for six months prior to the first game so we'd all know he's Good Aligned (and he knows we're always doing, evil things, which makes absolutely no sense as to why he'd be with us...) but out of game I don't wanna just outright kill him for the simple fact that it would create so much Drama the game would probably end.
geekling 02-13-08, 09:00 AM	but it honestly sounds like you're being a real jerk about it. I mean, you're not the only one in the game. If this is the way he enjoys playing then who are you to tell him otherwise? QFT. What he said, and all that jazz. Wether or not this guy is a munchkin or not has no real bearing on you being a jerk. The answer to that question, is yes. If you need to drag it all up on a forum he's likely to read to ask. Then you absolutely were a jerk.
Venion 02-13-08, 09:07 AM	Alright, I guess the consensus is that I was a jerk about the situation, I'll let him know I'm sorry about calling him a Munch-kin in front of everyone, even though that's how I really feel.
Kanosint 02-13-08, 12:20 PM	Don't be sorry about calling him a munchkin (well, a Munch-kin sounds dirtier somehow, like he's a cannibal or something :P), all signs point out that he is, in fact, only playing to be the best. However, it's true, you should apologise about being so rude about it, kindly ask to play a logical character.
Malcaor 02-13-08, 08:30 PM	If he's havinb fun being a munchkin let him. It doesn't look like he is really stepping on your toes too much. It wouldn't be ridiculous to ask him to RP a bit more though.
navar100 02-13-08, 08:43 PM	Wait, everyone but him, including you, are playing Evil characters and you're complaining how he makes his character? Yes, you are being a jerk. Playing an evil campaign is not in itself munchkin. It can be done in a serious manner. However, the party has more latitude on the actions it takes. There are no things characters wouldn't do. Lawful Evil types may have a code for which they won't do certain things, but they'll be meticulous. When party behavior has no real constraints, class abilities are the least of the problems. It's the nature of evil campaigns. The fact that you even contemplated killing his character is the proof. Let's pretend now everyone is Goody McTwoShoes. With the player in question consistently bragging about what his character can do, he's being a jerk. I wouldn't fault you muttering munchkin in frustrated response. Tell him to knock it off. In any case, if the DM has no problem with his character, and his character is not monopolizing the game, then back off. It's not your perogotive to tell another player how to make his character to your approval.
Bopple 02-13-08, 08:44 PM	I am not sure if he is really a munchkin or you are a jerk. But +8d6 at level 5 sounds fishy. I'd rather first check it thoroughly.
ff6shadow 02-13-08, 09:19 PM	My guess is he using Dragonfire Inspiration from Dragon Magic to changes his bardic music from bonuses to hit to bonus d6s. Dragon Shaman lets him alter the damage from fire to sonic. Pretty standard Dragonfire Bard. The good requirement feat is probably Words of Creation, which is an exalted feat and will require him to remain good to benefit from it. It can be used to double the benefits of his bardic music. 8d6 is probably a bit optimistic for level 5. A little math Base Inspire Courage +1 1st level Spell - Inspirational Boost (Spc pg. 124) Inspire Courage +1 Item - Badge of Valor (MIC pg. 208) Inspire Courage +1 That gets him +3, double by Words of Creation for +6. Probably not going to make +8 unless the DM gives him a Vest of Legends (DMGII pg. 272) worth 16,000, well beyond wealth per level. In he powergaming? Yes, and way to hard given your group composition. Is he being a munchkin? Probably a bit. His character is pushing optimization pretty hard, counting on a slight rules question (Does Words of Creation double base inspire courge, or total after modifiers), and will likely outshine your character pretty badly if your not optimized yourselves. Additionally, he's not just playing a good character, but an exalted character in a clearly evil, pushing evil campaign.
Exposed_Wires 02-13-08, 11:01 PM	There is an eberron specific feat; Song of the Heart. It adds a +1 as well. But that just means that he isn't really making things up. He could easily be misinterpreting them. Half that stuff isn't actually supposed to stack unless you have a really nice DM. Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds, pg. 48). Prereq: Good Alignment, Granted by powerful agent of good (such as deity, celestial, etc...), Special DM approval, Int 15, Chr 15, base Will save bonus +5; Benefit: You can use Words of Creation to enhance bardic music...A bard who has the Words of Creation feat can use these powerful words to enhance his bardic music ability as detailed below. When a bard uses the Words of Creation in this manner, it is extremely draining, and the bard takes 1d4 points of nonlethal damage for each rank in Perform required to produce the bardic music effect he is enhancing. For example, if Devis uses the Words of Creation to double an inspire courage effect (minimum 3 ranks in Perform), he takes 3d4 points of nonlethal damage....The Words of Creation doubles the effect of several bardic music abilities...Inspire Courage: Double the morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear and the morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls (+2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th level, +8 at 20th level). He needs to be taking nonlethal damage every round and the ability had to be granted by a deity who certainly wouldn't approve of him running around with evil people. Also, I'd imagine as with all other things in the book of exalted deeds, if you stray from the path of good for even a second, you lose all the benefits. That was intent and the reason the feats are so good. Also, the doubling shouldn't stack with all the bonuses to his inspire courage. The inspirational boost spell and the badge of valor effects would come after. Do your best to keep him in check. As for the rest, try to get him to step up the roleplay. Ask him, in character, about his past. Places he's been and things he's done. Make sure he has a good reason to be running around with a bunch of jerks. Maybe he is trying to convert your group or reduce the trouble you guys wreak. It's going to take quite a bit to counter all that munchkin'ing.
Man in the Funny Hat 02-13-08, 11:17 PM	If your info is correct then yes, you are completly justfied in calling him a munchkin.Fine. He's a munchkin. It seems the OP was QUITE clear in making that opinion known at the table. However, the OP is indeed being a jerk for not just shutting up and playing once he'd expressed his sentiments. If this munchkinism is/was a PROBLEM inhibiting his enjoyment of the game then he needs to bring it up to the DM - NOT just keep calling the other player names. In fact, since it requires the DM's approval for this "munchkin" character to be played in the first place the response is even more inappropriate. You just can't be blaming a player for doing what the DM is perfectly willing to ALLOW him to do.
ff6shadow 02-13-08, 11:29 PM	Exposed Wires Thanks, I forgot Song of the Heart. Don't get to many campaigns that allow Eberron around here. Unfortunately, they do stack, they're all untyped bonuses to inspire courage. The only questionable thing in the whole deal is Words of Creation doubling the modifiers and not just the base ability. Final note there, Words of Creation onl;y hits them with the nonlethal damage when they start the ability. Maintaining it doesn't damage you. Final Decision on the thread: He's powergaming hard, and being a jerk flaunting what he'll be capable of. Your thought process on having decisions make some semblance of RP sense isn't stupid, but it is being a jerk to call him a munchkin. Even if he is one. Just ignore the idiot and enjoy your game as much as possible. However, if he is using Words of Creation, and I'm fairly sure he is or is going to be, make sure tghe DM knows thats its an exalted feat. He does something even remotely close to evil and he can't use the feat again, nor can he replace it or atone to reclaim it. Exatled is a *****.
Orenmir 02-14-08, 10:14 AM	@ the OP... Is your interpretation of "Munchkin" derogatory? If so, yes, you are being a jerk. Being derogatory towards a person in front of peers is very rude, regardless of their behavior. You may argue that he was being a jerk too; but, being a jerk back to him is not so courteous (and it brings you down to their level). Asking him to refrain from excessive boasting would have been the polite thing to do. You seem to be focusing much on his character -- why? IMO, that's the DM's job. Let the DM make sure the PCs are balanced. What's it to you if the Bard is a powergamer? It might just help out your party. If the player is being annoying, then politely ask him to stop. Don't feed the fire with negative comments. [Although, I must admit - there's nothing wrong with powergaming as long as you aren't annoying about it.] By the way, how do the Drows and Elves get along in your party?
Sinfire Titan 02-14-08, 11:55 AM	If your info is correct then yes, you are completly justfied in calling him a munchkin. No, this person can be classified as an Optimizer. Munchkins break rules. Optimizers bend them within reasonable limitations. I am not sure if he is really a munchkin or you are a jerk. But +8d6 at level 5 sounds fishy. I'd rather first check it thoroughly. Song of the Heart+Words of Creation+Dragonfire Inspiration. It lacks Song of the White Raven goodness, but it gets the job done. This is fairly standard for Bard Optimization. He meets Words of Creation's Base Will Save requirement via the dip into Dragon Shaman, so it is legal by 3rd level. The other way is to use Ultimate Magus for full 9th level spells in both Bard and Wizard using other PrCs.
Venion 02-14-08, 01:07 PM	The DM didn't wanna bother with having our characters meet and crap so he just threw in a "You've been working together for the past 6 months and are all friends" -_- kinda stupid if ya ask me but whatever, he's DM. The DM also doesn't look at characters, at all... He takes a quick glance and that's it... The "Munch-kin" I mention is actually my childhood friend and he optimizes in every D&D game, which I generally don't have an issue with, it's just this time the whole, traveling with Evil as a Good character and level dipping bother me. I guess I am paying attention to his character just because I'm so used to being a DM and refuse to allow players to optimize like what the Bard is doing unless they can give me some roleplay reason.
Orenmir 02-14-08, 01:26 PM	I guess I am paying attention to his character just because I'm so used to being a DM and refuse to allow players to optimize like what the Bard is doing unless they can give me some roleplay reason. You can't optimize your character without having a RP reason? Why not? Maybe we define optimize differently. IMO, optimizing your character just means you do a bunch of research to figure out how to make the best build you can -- there is no rule-breaking involved. Some people would also describe it as using knowledge and experience to play the game well. If this player is really an old friend, why not cut him some slack? It sounds like he's having fun playing his character and it's bending you out of shape. I bet you could be having a lot more fun if you just let him be and let the game/RP unravel without question. Forgive the piety; I'm only trying to help.
cjhobbitbane 02-14-08, 01:35 PM	TBH, id say no, your not being a jerk, but thats because im a mean spirited person and think that people who cant RP shouldnt play an RPG, but barring that... yeah your a jerk, but he still needs to make a char that makes at least a semblance of sense.
wonlee76 02-14-08, 01:48 PM	You can't optimize your character without having a RP reason? Why not? Maybe we define optimize differently. IMO, optimizing your character just means you do a bunch of research to figure out how to make the best build you can -- there is no rule-breaking involved. Some people would also describe it as using knowledge and experience to play the game well. Well, to me there are two types of optimizers (I use munchkin as a fellow who tries to optimize but in doing so breaks/misreads/misinterprets the rules to get to his optimized builds): 1: Optimize with RP reasons. You make a PC that's good at something but the choices of class, feats, etc. make sense given the circumstances of the world, personality, group you're in, etc. etc. 2: Optimize without RP reason: Not that these optimizers look to ignore RP'ing or anything but they tend to come up with some lame RP excuses as to how their PC ends up the way they are. Example of #1: A PC who wants to be a very good THF warrior type choosing to be a leap attack, shock trooper, Lion Totem Barbarian (+insert prestige class like Frenzied Berserker) PC. The choices synergize and make sense and makes a powerful PC in his chosen area of specialty. Example of #2: I remember a while back on the Optimization boards of a build involving a priest of Mystra Shadowweaver build. By the mechanical pre-requisites, the build was 100% legit. But due to RP restrictions, this build should never exist in the world (Mystra being against the Shadowweave and all that). No rules were broken other than RP restrictions. A PC that tries to pull off that build would fall under category #2. To the OP: He's a buddy of yours so calling him a munchkin is bad (presuming your intent behind the words is intended to insult him, I've tossed out the term munchkin as a joke in the past but have seen it to be used as a really deragatory term as well). As for your buddy, the only one who should restrict his build is your DM. I'm presuming your DM gave him the green light for the feats and class choices he made to create this bard. However, I also expect the DM to enforce the rules so presuming one of those feats that your friend picked up is Words of Creation, which I believe is an exalted feat, then he's bound to lose that feat in the very near future considering he's around a bunch of evil PCs (unless he successfully redeems the batch of you). The only thing as a player I might do is mention to the DM if there is any rules being broken in your buddy's build (and bring it to the DM's attention in a nice way). "Hey DM... check out Jake's PC a bit carefully. I think some of the feats don't work the way he thinks it works." Let the DM make the call on how it works and move on with your life.
High Octane 02-14-08, 02:52 PM	The only thing I find wrong is him playing a good character in a group of evil characters. That's simply putting your own character build ahead of the good of the group. Now the rest is powergaming sure, but powergamers are still gamers and so long as they act in cohesion with the group they aren't usually that bad. But him playing a good aligned character which is bad for the group in general just so he can grab a feat is not cool. You making a huge stink of it is not good and borders on the jerk factor. But I would simply ask the DM to allow his character to be evil and keep the feat. I know that may be irritating, but putting up with that rather then blowing the group apart sounds like a fair deal. Aaaaaaaand I would request that in the future you ban the Book of Exalted Cheese from all players character creation (along with the Book of Vile Darkness). Those books cause serious issues.
Sinfire Titan 02-14-08, 03:28 PM	Aaaaaaaand I would request that in the future you ban the Book of Exalted Cheese from all players character creation (along with the Book of Vile Darkness). Those books cause serious issues. No, people who don't know what to do with them being in the game THINK they cause problems. There are only two feats in BoED that cause problems often, and those are Vow of Peace and Touch of Golden Ice (because people keep thinking the DC scales, which it doesn't). Don't say Vow of Poverty causes problems, because it is actually worse than actually buying your stuff (20% decrease from the average Wealth/Level, so you lose out unless you Optimize it). Abuse of the rules is what causes problems (Donating your gold to the party instead of to an actual organization) and Stupid Good/Evil players.
Herr-des-Todes 02-14-08, 04:42 PM	Maybe you and the bard player, could talk with the dm about his alignment and words of creation. He could be evil, and still be able to have +4d6 without conflicting with anything else, right?
DracoPhoenix 02-14-08, 04:46 PM	Well, it sound's like he is a munchkin, so calling a spade a spade isn't being a jerk - being immature in the process might be, but otherwise, no. "Oi! No nuts!" That feat he's got, wasn't in any way dependent on his alignment was it? If that Dragonthingy happens to be Dragon Born, Bahumat might have something to say on the matter. If race is a pre-req for said feat and Bahumat pulls (divine) rank, removing his gift. He no longer qualifies for the feat, but cannot change it out :) As for the Roll vs Role play, end of the day, that's his preference. Not everybody can / wants Role play and you should respect his position on the matter (otherwise, why should he respect yours?) That said, something like a Dragon Born Paladin in the BBEG Anon meeting is probably something the DM should be made aware of.
CrimsonDeath 02-14-08, 04:53 PM	He needs to be taking nonlethal damage every round I'm not sure why you think he should take nonlethal damage every round. It should only apply on the round when he starts singing. I'm not sure how he got all of this by level 5, though. Song of the Heart has Inspire Competence as a prerequisite, so the soonest you can get it is level 3. Even if he's using the Eberron Campaign Setting alternate class features to swap out Bardic music abilities for Bardic music feats, the earliest he could get Song of the Heart that way would be swapping out Suggestion at level 6, since he still needs to meet the prerequisites. Meanwhile, Song of the Heart requires a base Will save of +5. Dragonfire Adept 1/Bard 2 would qualify, but that way, he can't get Song of the Heart at level 3 because he's not only using his level 3 feat for something else, but he also doesn't get Inspire Competence until character level 4. I believe it's also been mentioned that Inspirational Boost requires a Swift action to cast while the Badge of Valor requires an Immediate action to activate. If it's ruled that they can affect the same performance of Inspire Courage, it would still interact strangely with Words of Creation. In any case, Inspire Courage seems like a relatively innocuous thing to optimize, especially since there are other people in the party who are likely to get more use out of it than the person who actually put all the work into creating the character.
Venion 02-14-08, 05:07 PM	As for the Roll vs Role play, end of the day, that's his preference. Not everybody can / wants Role play and you should respect his position on the matter (otherwise, why should he respect yours?) I seriously just need to ask, why play Dungeons and Dragons with a pure role play group if you don't want to role play? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
ff6shadow 02-14-08, 05:14 PM	Song of the Heart only requires Inspire Competance and Perform 6 ranks. Words of Creation requires Base Will Save +5. So he taked Words of Creation at level 3, then uses the Eberron Campaign settings option to swap Inspire Competance with Song of the Heart. Not sure if it technically works, but it's likely what he is planning
CrimsonDeath 02-14-08, 07:11 PM	Song of the Heart only requires Inspire Competance and Perform 6 ranks. Words of Creation requires Base Will Save +5. So he taked Words of Creation at level 3, then uses the Eberron Campaign settings option to swap Inspire Competance with Song of the Heart. Not sure if it technically works, but it's likely what he is planning But if you swap out Inspire Competence, then you don't have it, so you don't meet the prerequisite for Song of the Heart. It's something a lot of people seem to overlook.
ff6shadow 02-14-08, 07:34 PM	Yeah, thats why I was saying I wasn't sure it would work. I'd allow it as a DM, most of the time, but I beleive your right.
DeciusNero 02-14-08, 08:43 PM	Yes and no; it depends on how you did it. I suppose just calling out a "munchkin" is rude, but I don't know the full story between you two. I mean, I know how irritating it is to deal with a munchkin, esp when they try to extend their munckineering to my character (take this feat...why don't you do this...you're not fully using you're character...I would do 'x'...), but try not to make a mountain of a molehill *is hit by a book of cliches* I am somewhat perplexed to hear s/he is being a bard; when suggested that they try a 'support character', they laugh.
Venion 02-14-08, 09:36 PM	Yes and no; it depends on how you did it. I suppose just calling out a "munchkin" is rude, but I don't know the full story between you two. I mean, I know how irritating it is to deal with a munchkin, esp when they try to extend their munckineering to my character (take this feat...why don't you do this...you're not fully using you're character...I would do 'x'...), but try not to make a mountain of a molehill *is hit by a book of cliches* I am somewhat perplexed to hear s/he is being a bard; when suggested that they try a 'support character', they laugh. Funny that you mention this, well, when he starts bragging about how strong his stuff is I just say the word munchkin, that's all I do. Yes, he does try to munchkineering me as you put it, I originally mentioned wanting to play a Drow Fighter/Rogue who main handed a whip and off handed a short sword, I was gonna use him to disarm/trip the enemy, he without missing a beat said I should use the spiked chain just because it's better and has more feats open to it, he does this a lot to the other players as well. I wouldn't mind so much if he only recommended the chain, but he said I should take it because it's better. Me personally, I always make character concepts then start picking things that match the character, my friend on the other hand, picks what's best first then "tries" to wrap a character design/rp, I don't have issues with optimizing characters, I just don't agree with players who start dipping into classes and doing things like playing a good character in an evil campaign just to pick a feat.
danielinthewolvesden 02-14-08, 10:11 PM	Why not try this? Invite him here. Let us hear his side, too.
Sinfire Titan 02-15-08, 04:50 AM	But if you swap out Inspire Competence, then you don't have it, so you don't meet the prerequisite for Song of the Heart. It's something a lot of people seem to overlook. So DMs house rule it as an ACF instead of a feat.
CrimsonDeath 02-15-08, 06:17 AM	Yes, he does try to munchkineering me as you put it, I originally mentioned wanting to play a Drow Fighter/Rogue who main handed a whip and off handed a short sword, I was gonna use him to disarm/trip the enemy, he without missing a beat said I should use the spiked chain just because it's better and has more feats open to it, he does this a lot to the other players as well. I wouldn't mind so much if he only recommended the chain, but he said I should take it because it's better. Well, the Scorpion Chain is a Drow weapon... (And it can be mathematically demonstrated that it is "better" from a mechanical standpoint.) Did you go with the chain, or stick with the whip-and-sword combo? If you stuck with the whip, did he keep pushing the chain, or did he let it go? And have you ever mentioned to him that you'd rather not get any advice regarding character creation?
Venion 02-15-08, 10:14 AM	I've mentioned to him more than a few times that I play all my characters based off of concept not mechanics, and he was mentioning the chain from the players handbook not the scorpion one.
Venion 02-15-08, 11:58 AM	Well, the Scorpion Chain is a Drow weapon... (And it can be mathematically demonstrated that it is "better" from a mechanical standpoint.) Did you go with the chain, or stick with the whip-and-sword combo? If you stuck with the whip, did he keep pushing the chain, or did he let it go? And have you ever mentioned to him that you'd rather not get any advice regarding character creation? I instead went with being a Duskblade, right now I do two-weapon fighting, main hand a Thunder Surge Longsword +1 (Thunder Surge is in DM guide II) and I offhand a Masterwork Spiked Gauntlet, he has asked me "why?" for my two weapon fighting decision though, but I think the idea is neat so I went with it.
CrimsonDeath 02-15-08, 03:16 PM	But have you actually asked him to stop giving you advice? If it annoys you that much, and he's your friend, that probably the most efficient way to solve the problem-- much more effective than complaining to us.