Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tanegar 03-31-08, 03:54 AM	I am one of four players in my five-man group. One of the other players is pretty cool; the other two I loathe with a white-hot fury. One of them is playing a rogue/paladin/shadowbane inquisitor, the other a rogue/cleric/shadowbane stalker. I don't know their exact class level distribution, but we're all level 9 at the moment. (In case you're interested, I'm a wizard 6/geometer 3.) The two shadowbane guys are (allegedly) servants of Ilmater. This is not why I hate them. The guy playing the alleged paladin is playing him as a greedy, venal, bloodthirsty, sadistic, bullying *****monger, and the guy playing the cleric is about the same. No, I'm not kidding about the *****monger part. Earlier in the campaign, we went undercover in an effort to infiltrate the local assassins' guild and identify their leader. As part of their "cover," the paladin and the cleric got jobs as bouncers at the local house of ill repute. When the house of ill repute burned down (not our fault... mostly), they basically co-opted the entire group of prostitutes to come and live in our base as "staff." I'll let you guess what their duties primarily consist of. Prostitution is not illegal under local law, but I have difficulty believing the paladin's assertion that "I haven't done anything my church wouldn't sanction." Yes, he actually said that with a straight face. Another anecdote you may find illuminating: more recently, we rescued a dwarf from the clutches of a drider sorcerer and his pet giant spider. Afterward, the paladin and the cleric wanted to go deeper into the Underdark, enlisting the dwarf as our guide. The dwarf refused, on the (entirely reasonable, IMO) grounds that he had no interest in revisiting the place where many of his friends were killed. The paladin started talking about putting a leash on the dwarf and forcing him to be our guide. From where I'm sitting, he's basically playing a blackguard in all but name. The guy playing the cleric is less flagrant about it, but he's definitely enthusiastic about the *****s, and displays a level of empathy and compassion more appropriate to a cleric of Bane than a cleric of Ilmater. In particular, he treats the NPC cleric in our party (a female single-classed cleric of Ilmater) in the most misogynistic way imaginable, talking about how often he makes her fellate him, ordering her to wear her "***** outfit," etc. The DM (who goes way back with both these guys) seems completely fine with all of this. I've dropped subtle (and not-so-subtle) hints that I'm not fine with it, and have basically been told to sit down, shut up and play my own damn character. Not in so many words, but that's the vibe I get. To my way of thinking, paladins and (to a lesser extent) clerics basically come with a predetermined code of behavior. Sure, you can play a religious character as an enlightened Buddha-like figure, an inquisitorial zealot, or anything in between, but certain things are grossly inappropriate for your character's religion, whatever it may be. I wouldn't expect a follower of Bane to give alms to the poor any more than I expect a paladin of Ilmater to enslave people who refuse to work for him willingly. Am I completely out of line, here? This is my first P&P RPG campaign, so I don't really have any experience of my own to draw on, but it seems to me that these two are more interested in playing *****s & Hosebags than Dungeons & Dragons. I've pretty much decided that I won't be rejoining this group for a second campaign; fortunately, I know of another DM in the area. Even so, what's a player to do?
DraconsNighthawk 03-31-08, 04:16 AM	Run. Run now. It may be a roleplaying GAME, but seeing as the DM acts like its a common thing, they must have played multiple characters like that, and there is only so many times you can /act different from real life you/ before it seems like that characters really are like you. The real thing is, are you having fun? Doesn't look like it. And not judging you as a person, as you guys may have one point been great friends, (Doesn't seem like it). And chances are they aren't ether, because you too are not a perverted murderous character who is so anti illmater that my first guess this was a troll. I can however, KINDA see woman of ill repute MIGHT have been Somewhat Illmater. After all, sex does feel great, if both are willing and working to please the other. Its a great healing deal. (...or so I hear. I am a DnD nerd night clerk of a convience store after all ;) ). But it seems more of a WHOO HOOO, we got free hookers!! Because we saved them from doing othersS OUR GODS RULEZ!!" So I would run. Go to the other game. Play online. Just run.
Demetri_Knighthawk 03-31-08, 04:29 AM	I agree withthe above, run, run hard, run fast, if one of them ever brings their GF to game, change addresses.
calronmoonflower 03-31-08, 04:40 AM	First try talking to the players and your dungeon master about this. They are clearly playing evil characters under the guise of good ones. Being a shadowbane whatever doesn't allow you to avoid alignment change.
lamrar 03-31-08, 04:55 AM	I am one of four players in my five-man group. One of the other players is pretty cool; the other two I loathe with a white-hot fury. The two shadowbane guys are (allegedly) servants of Ilmater. This is not why I hate them. This made me laugh so hard :rofl: The only way to lose at dnd is to fail to have fun. It doesn't sound like you're having fun, so I would suggest that you find a new group. If this is not an option then I think you should ask your DM how he rules alignement. Then at least you'll know how he's thinking.
Kouk 03-31-08, 06:02 AM	Leave the game. The issues of their deity/alignment are kind of minor issues compared to the rest of that post...
SokenzanMarauder 03-31-08, 06:29 AM	First: Welcome to the hobby. Hopefully you'll enjoy yourself once you find a good group. Second: Sorry your first game had to be with such asshats. Third: Wow. In summary: Flee while you can! If it comes down to it you can always play D&D online.
key 03-31-08, 09:16 AM	The cleric may not be misogynistic. Maybe the female cleric has an oral fetish and craves attention. He's just satisfying her needs, good guy that he is.
Kurobara 03-31-08, 09:32 AM	Being a shadowbane whatever doesn't allow you to avoid alignment change. Actually, the Shadowbane Inquisitor PrC (dunno about Shadowbane Stalker, I haven't looked at it as much in general) explicitly allows you to keep your powers if your alignment changes. (There is a lot of debate about it considering it only explicitly applies to the powers of the PrC, not the Paladin powers, and if you lose those you lose PrC qualification, but I think the rules as intended cover the Paladin powers as well.) It's very much flavored as the sort of paladin who takes smiting evil to the worst possible extremes, like Miko from Order of the Stick. However, I think even given that, the players in question are going way overboard with it, and no, I don't think the OP is out of line in being upset about it, especially since while I don't know my Forgotten Realms that well, from what I do remember, Ilmater doesn't really seem like the sort of god who'd allow the Shadowbane PrCs in the first place. It's really more for the St. Cuthbert-types (sorry, again, don't know my FR well enough to pick a god from there).
DraconsNighthawk 03-31-08, 10:14 AM	Actually, the Shadowbane Inquisitor PrC (dunno about Shadowbane Stalker, I haven't looked at it as much in general) explicitly allows you to keep your powers if your alignment changes. Just because a PrC lets you keep your powers if your alignment changes, doesn't mean their alignment CAN'T change. What I do remember, Ilmater doesn't really seem like the sort of god who'd allow the Shadowbane PrCs in the first place. It's really more for the St. Cuthbert-types (sorry, again, don't know my FR well enough to pick a god from there). Correct. Though one can keep their powers through that class, FR still has that whole one step deally to keep spells. Illmater doesn't want them to have their spells, (and from what very little I've heard), as a DM I would have stripped them their spells long ago.
Wheldrake 03-31-08, 10:38 AM	When other players continually use their RPG to play out their frustrated sexual fantasies, it can get very sickening. I'm cool if it just happens once, or once in a while, but players who focus on this aspect again and again just need to get out more, and get a life. IMHO, you have two options: (1) leave the group, as many other posters have suggested or (2) tell the other players flat out that you don't enjoy playing alongside their constant sexual fantasies, and that you'd prefer doing some more "heroic"-style adventures. I would agree that whatever the paladin character's other classes are, his paladin status should be forfeit with this sort of domination fantasies going on. But if the DM seems to think this is appropriate paladin behaviour, well, again, you can either walk or try to get these blokes to change something. I feel your pain. Cheers, --- Wheldrake
green_yawgmoth 03-31-08, 11:14 AM	First try talking to the players and your dungeon master about this. This will only lead to more of the same "sit down, shut up" crap he's been getting. OP: Nth-ing the "run hard and fast and don't look back" emotion. These guys are basically just mentally beating off. Maybe when they turn 15 they'll be able to do more with this game than get their characters laid all the time because they can't talk to girls.
kelvinaw273 03-31-08, 12:18 PM	I'll go with that advice. If it isn't the DM telling you to shut up and play, then speak to the DM alone. Here's a few points ... Hooking may not be against Ilmatar's code, but they're poaching Sune's worshippers - very bad form! They may find a paladin of Sune turning up (yes, she has them despite the CG alignment) asking awkward questions, or even of Loviatar (well, some of them may be kinky that way ...) Slavery is against Ilmater's code, if I recall correctly, so putting the dwarf on a leash is right out, and putting him through that kind of grief is an evil act. Even with Shadowbane classes, going out of alignment is questionable - because reading between the lines the shadowbane classes are for zealots so dedicated that they go beyond those restrictions - not so ill-disciplined that they behave Chaotic Sex-mad.
LSMFT 03-31-08, 12:33 PM	I am one of four players in my five-man group. One of the other players is pretty cool; the other two I loathe with a white-hot fury.This is all you really needed to say. If your experience evokes feelings of white hot fury, you need to do something else. I did read the rest of your post, and good god man! why are you not running already? First try talking to the players and your dungeon master about this. Why? If you enjoy arguments and have some free time, give it a go. But you already know all you need to. They are playing (w)Hores and Hosebags. The DM is running a game of (w)Hores and Hosebags. And that’s fine. I’m not judging them if they are having a good time, but you don’t want to play (w)Hores and Hosebags. Time to go. Talk to the guy you like, maybe he’ll go with you to that other DM you know of. As for the others, it isn’t like they will change. Why discuss the fact that you don’t like their style? What good can come of it?
Kouk 03-31-08, 12:36 PM	Just so we can hopefully stop talking about this alignment issue: Some players will refuse to tell you information or just lie about it, in the guise of "roleplaying". Their characters could quite likely actually worship Cyric, but because that kind of thing is frowned upon in "good" society, they lie and don't tell anyone -- even the actual human players in their game group. The only one who would know is the player and the DM. Personally I hate that kind of gamer. Also, since the DM is not enforcing anything along the lines of alignment, choosing a deity may be just a formality for him, and there actually are no alignments or gods or anything who care. You can solve that easily by asking him whether he enforces alignment. That should answer both issues. EDIT: It won't however address any of the other issues, which are likely to remain forever since the DM OKs them.
Tanegar 03-31-08, 01:55 PM	These guys are basically just mentally beating off. Maybe when they turn 15 they'll be able to do more with this game than get their characters laid all the time because they can't talk to girls. The really sad part is that, at 27 (28 at the end of April), I'm the second-youngest guy in the group. The one guy who I can actually stand to be around is in his early twenties, and the other three (the two asshats and the DM) are all in their late thirties to early forties. The DM is married with kids, the paladin is divorced with a young daughter (welcome to Squick City, population me), and the cleric... I dunno. He's never mentioned a SO. Anyway, thanks for taking a load off my mind, people. I'm going to send the DM an email now.
themocaw 03-31-08, 02:02 PM	If you're not having fun, then don't play. It's that simple. I do remember one campaign that went absolutely insane: I think I was in my late teens and I had the players meet up with their contact at a wh-rehouse on a pleasure planet, where she was the madam. The campaign went downhill from there and it died a couple sessions later, as the players lost all sense of story and went around boning prostitutes instead. If the group is dealing with NC-17 rated issues beyond, "I take her to bed, does she like it?" then maybe that's not the kind of roleplaying you were expecting to find.
green_yawgmoth 03-31-08, 02:11 PM	The really sad part is that, at 27 (28 at the end of April), I'm the second-youngest guy in the group. The one guy who I can actually stand to be around is in his early twenties, and the other three (the two asshats and the DM) are all in their late thirties to early forties. The DM is married with kids, the paladin is divorced with a young daughter (welcome to Squick City, population me), and the cleric... I dunno. He's never mentioned a SO. Anyway, thanks for taking a load off my mind, people. I'm going to send the DM an email now. when I said "turn 15" I meant "reach the level of maturity you'd expect from a 15 year old, because these guys are way under that." Surprising that the "paladin" is divorced, considering how he plays his character, ya?
CrimsonDeath 03-31-08, 05:47 PM	Some players will refuse to tell you information or just lie about it, in the guise of "roleplaying". Their characters could quite likely actually worship Cyric, but because that kind of thing is frowned upon in "good" society, they lie and don't tell anyone -- even the actual human players in their game group. Isn't that dangerous in the Realms? If a Cyric worshipper claims to follow Ilmater, isn't there a remote possibility that Ilmater himself will descend from on high and contradict him (with a boot to the head)?
DraconsNighthawk 03-31-08, 06:46 PM	Isn't that dangerous in the Realms? If a Cyric worshipper claims to follow Ilmater, isn't there a remote possibility that Ilmater himself will descend from on high and contradict him (with a boot to the head)? With Lovitar followers, a resounding yes. With Cyric, well, he still does SOME good, and Illmater may hope that those small acts can lead to bigger, and bigger, til he redeem himself. (Longshot). But that's how I've always seen Illmater.
Guardian1 03-31-08, 07:12 PM	With Lovitar followers, a resounding yes. With Cyric, well, he still does SOME good, and Illmater may hope that those small acts can lead to bigger, and bigger, til he redeem himself. (Longshot). But that's how I've always seen Illmater. Judging from Ilmater's dogma, it seems more in line that he would be on the side of that dwarf that on the paladin's side. As it says in the Dogma section of Ilmater's entry in Faiths and Pantheons: "Help all who hurt, no matter who they are. The truly holy take on the suffering of others. Ifyou suffer in his name, Ilmater is there to support you. Stick to your cause if it is right, whatever te pain or peril. There is no shame in a meaningful death. Stand up to all tyrants, and allow no injustice to go unchallenged. Emphasize the spiritual nature of life over the existence of the material body" (Boyd & Mona, page 31). (Yes, I included parenthetical citations. What can I say? Too many college papers lately). Judging from Ilmater's dogma, it appears that the only thing in there being followed by the characters in question is the part sticking to your guns, no matter what. Otherwise, it looks like these two are ripe for a fall. I don't think that even Ilmater, merciful as he is, would allow two of his (alleged) servants to get away with slavery, which is basically how I see that paldin putting a leash on the dwarf. As I see it, that dwarf wasn't treated mercifully at all. Judging from the OP, that "leash incident" seems more Bane-ish then anything else.
WilliamTanner 03-31-08, 07:21 PM	Aside from the obvious path of leaving the game, your best bet is beer. Drink steadily. You'll be more able to enjoy the game as best as you can. But you're better off finding a new game. Playing with the good ol' boys is tough when you aren't a good ol' boy.
DraconsNighthawk 03-31-08, 08:36 PM	Judging from Ilmater's dogma, it appears that the only thing in there being followed by the characters in question is the part sticking to your guns, no matter what. Otherwise, it looks like these two are ripe for a fall. No, that much is true. I was just replying to a question that asked if someone is pretending to follow Illmater, wouldn't he step in to put a boot up their ass? If the above 'Paladin' was truely a worshipper of Cyric, and just saying he was a Paladin for RP purposes, then I don't see Illmater putting a boot up his ass for that. He's shield the victims, but not outright smite them for the tiniest good deeds he has done. If on the other hand, the 'Paladin' was truly a worshipper of Lovitar, then I can see Illmater informing some of his worshippers, which in turn send a party to invisigate, talk to, and if push comes to shove, bring to justice, with slaying only in a truely life and death was in the balance for good.
Kouk 03-31-08, 08:51 PM	Isn't that dangerous in the Realms? If a Cyric worshipper claims to follow Ilmater, isn't there a remote possibility that Ilmater himself will descend from on high and contradict him (with a boot to the head)? Not to get too defensive but... It seems to be a common misconception that the gods are always gonna be knocking down your door. The only time they wandered around with the mortals was because they were forced to (or when they're really bored). Generally they stay where they are, at most sending visions or something to their followers. All subject to your DM of course. I don't think one Paladin is really worth starting a war with Cyric over.
Man in the Funny Hat 03-31-08, 10:38 PM	double post
Man in the Funny Hat 03-31-08, 10:39 PM	Well you are not out of line for questioning the behavior of the two PC's (and perhaps the players as well). But you should definitely also be questioning the behavior of the DM who is allowing such... uncharacteristic behavior to continue at length unchallenged and unchecked. The answer to the situation, as always, is... COMMUNICATION Talk to the DM. Tell him your concerns. Ask for specific responses at length regarding how he handles alignment, how he handles paladin vows, and of course just what kind of campaign is it he's trying to run here? It's not as if you're some prude who blushes at the mention of sex, but whats the freakin' point of BEING a paladin (or simply allowing paladins in the dang game) if you're not even gonna PRETEND to be upstanding, righteous, and in general a GOOD GUY? It's one thing to JOKE about doing what you describe these characters doing - it's something else entirely to wallow in actually having the characters do it. It's one thing to assert that your paladin sees no shame in consensual sex with any particular partner, but it's quite another to gather up an entire house of prostitutes for your entourage to have them service you personally. The level of debauchery and misogyny described is at the least pointlessly excessive, if not stupidly so. Whether you decide to remain with this group or not you really need to make your objections known, both regarding the gratuitously juvenile obsessions, as well as the disregard by players and DM for even minimally reasonable lip-service to roleplaying restrictions. It might be they're just letting themselves get out of hand and will rein it in. I'm rather dubious of that. But in any case, if you leave then calmly and politely state why. You owe it to yourself and, strangely enough, to them as well.
Clem-Da-Squig 03-31-08, 10:59 PM	No, that much is true. I was just replying to a question that asked if someone is pretending to follow Illmater, wouldn't he step in to put a boot up their ass? If the above 'Paladin' was truely a worshipper of Cyric, and just saying he was a Paladin for RP purposes, then I don't see Illmater putting a boot up his ass for that. He's shield the victims, but not outright smite them for the tiniest good deeds he has done. If on the other hand, the 'Paladin' was truly a worshipper of Lovitar, then I can see Illmater informing some of his worshippers, which in turn send a party to invisigate, talk to, and if push comes to shove, bring to justice, with slaying only in a truely life and death was in the balance for good. ...And down from the heavens descened Chuck Nor-Illmater...
Etarnon 04-01-08, 12:51 AM	Oh, man, you just need to quit. End of story, period, full stop. What they are playing is not D&D. It's D & BDSM Fantasy.
Tanegar 04-01-08, 01:03 AM	Well, I talked to the DM, and the upshot of it is that I left the group. Haven't received a response from the other (hopefully saner) DM yet.
MrCustomer 04-01-08, 01:29 AM	Emphasize the spiritual nature of life over the existence of the material body" (Boyd & Mona, page 31). From that portion, it would seem that prostitution and sexual immorality, a harem of hookers is the complete opposite of putting spirituality over materialism. And while the PRC protects the player from allignment change, it does not offer protection from violating other parts of a Paladin's code, such as "grossly violating" their code of conduct. the intent of the allignment protection was so the shadowbane would not be restricted from taking actions a normal Paladin would be unable to do, not a licence to do whatever they want.
tyrandor 04-01-08, 01:38 AM	Well, they're obviously playing evil character but keeping a good alignment... and not seeing a reason why their characters wouldn't or at the very least, why they wouldn't become evil from it. I don't really have a problem with the idea of a game with a lot of sexual content - even more so since your guys are all adults. That being said, the idea that they've turned themselves into pimps and have suggested 'slavery' and yet believe they are still lawful good is highly disturbing... there is a difference between playing an evil character, and doing evil things in game and believing they are morally justified... it shows a rather skewed moral compass. But most importantly - they don't care that it's making you uncomfortable. That's a pretty good sign that those are not the people you want to play with.
green_yawgmoth 04-01-08, 12:32 PM	Well, I talked to the DM, and the upshot of it is that I left the group. Haven't received a response from the other (hopefully saner) DM yet. Good to hear. Just remember, free time > abuse.
key 04-01-08, 12:49 PM	That being said, the idea that they've turned themselves into pimps and have suggested 'slavery' and yet believe they are still lawful good is highly disturbing... there is a difference between playing an evil character, and doing evil things in game and believing they are morally justified... it shows a rather skewed moral compass. Not everyone shares the same morals. If my character pimped and enslaved he too would consider his actions morally justified. But most importantly - they don't care that it's making you uncomfortable. That's a pretty good sign that those are not the people you want to play with. This I agree with. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable. I like my characters to be a-holes, but I don't want to be one.
CrimsonDeath 04-01-08, 03:18 PM	Not everyone shares the same morals. If my character pimped and enslaved he too would consider his actions morally justified. There's a difference between "morally justified" and "Lawful Good". In D&D, Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil are real, detectable forces. If you want to know if someone is Lawful or Good, there are spells to find out. If you want to know if a course of action is Lawful or Good, summon an Outsider and ask (Lantern Archon, Summon Monster IV). I'm sure that most Chaotic Evil characters believe their actions are "morally justified". However, they're still Chaotic Evil, they still do Evil things in a Chaotic manner, and it's easy enough for them or anyone around them to verify.
tyrandor 04-01-08, 04:27 PM	Not everyone shares the same morals. If my character pimped and enslaved he too would consider his actions morally justified. Oh, I agree with you. Those are also the most interesting and believable evil character. I don't think a villain sees a villain when he looks in the mirror. I suppose some do, but the cackling mad man that calls himself evil makes for a flimsy and boring character that totally lacks depth. That being said, the character that feels his action are morally justified can STILL be evil. Do the Paladin in the above example believe he is evil? Probably not. Is he evil? Well, that's open to debate, but at the very least he's not good, i.e. Neutral and thus... not a paladin anymore... And that's what is troubling - that the PLAYERS believe that someone that is lawful good could be a pimp and a slaver...
WilliamTanner 04-01-08, 04:45 PM	Many of our founding fathers, and much of the South, participated in slavery. They certainly were lawful .. establishing the foundations of a new country. Yes, they fought the established law of England, but not for the purpose of lawlessness. They just wanted new leadership and laws. They weren't 'chaotic'. Were they evil for having slaves? In time they had a change of heart on the practice. I don't know that you can reasonably say that they were evil until that point though. As far as 'pimping' .. if prostitution is not illegal, then being a prostitute's manager is hardly illegal. Ultimately.. the three wanted to play a different fantasy than the two .. and they have rightly parted ways.
tyrandor 04-01-08, 06:06 PM	There's a rather large difference between being part of a society that use slaves for cheap labor and deciding on the spot to put a leash on someone and drag them back through the caves where their family was murdered...
WilliamTanner 04-01-08, 06:17 PM	I agree. I'd lost the context of 'slavery' over the course of the conversation. The dwarf scenario is torture (if carried out), not slavery. If the DM wasn't complicit in the mockery, he'd disown the 'paladin' and punt into the stratosphere. But in this case, the three are having fun.