Post/Author/DateTime	Post
monai75 08-13-07, 10:56 PM	Here is the long and short of it. I was invited to join a group about three months ago. I was to join a group of five friends who have been playing together for quite some time. I myself have been playing D+D since 1st edition. I was happy to find all of the players and the DM where a bit older than me ( I myself am close to 30 years old). We all stared at 1st level, I made a halfling Beguiler. The rest of the party included Goody goody Cleric, Goody goody Paladin, Human wizard(with spellfire traits), and a Human Ranger. Needless to say I had a hard time using some of my characters skills because I was stuck with the "Tell the truth all the time gang". But I did my best to manage. And I even managed to save my character and two other characters lives on the second game session. The problem is, I can feel a general uncomfortable vibe around some of the things I have my character do during games. I am not sure if it is my knowledge of the 3.5 rules, or how I use my characters spells and skills to overcome the DM railroad-like encounters. EXAMPLE: the DM was mad that we thwarted his lats encounter so easily, so he sent a couple of 3rd level thugs to rob us of our new items. I refused to give up and ended up escaping, along with saving the lives of another character. During the game one of the players even said "Look, he wants to take our magic items and gold because he wants to put us in our place, just give up and we can get on with the game!" I refused. Not just to be a jerk, but because my character was a prisoner for three years and will not ever let anyone tie him up, let alone take his stuff! I played my character, and I cam out on top by using my skills and some smart playing. That made the DM even more mad (I think). Anyway once we reached 2nd level the campaign continued. My party found themselves ambushed during the night by a group of evil half-orcs and a couple kobold rogues. Long story short, everyone except my character dropped below 0 hit points. So, what did my character do? What he does best. cast cham person on the gangs leader and talked him into letting us go. The DM even made me role the opposed charisma checks! And I still won! I could tell this made everyone mad. Why you ask? I still do not know! It seemed like all of the players wanted to give up and let their characters die. I spent a long time dreaming up my character and building his several personality , I was not going to just let the DM get another TPK (which I guess he strives for at times. Basically I am having a problem feeling comfortable playing the game the way I do with them. BUT, I love to play, especially with mature people who play on a regular basis for hours at a time. What do I do? I feel like every time I leave the place where we play they all stick around and talk about me. What can I do to feel more comfortable? I have brought this up to the group and they all insist there is no problem. But My gut felling is not usually wrong.
DarthNick 08-13-07, 11:09 PM	It sounds like the DM may be inexperienced and could be in a phase where he takes his traps/baddies being defeated personally. As he gains experience one can hope he'll become far more comfortable with letting the players have their moments of victory. You've been playing since 1st ed, have you considered running a game for them? You could bring some fresh life to their gaming and show them through your experience how to have fun and to the current DM, that his challenges/monsters are meant to be overcome and shouldn't be put in the game to punish the party for doing good. That there's nothing wrong with giving the players a tough fight but that it shouldn't be with the goal of killing all their characters. Understanding that running games is a lot of work and not everyone has the time for it, you brought it up to the group but now try talking with your DM before the game, one on one. Let him know it's not fun when he's fighting against his players. If he's concerned the new items are too powerful, show him the "wealth by level" sidebar and perhaps it'll convince him that your newfound treasures will better prepare you so he can use some stronger monsters in the next adventure. I believe if he's shown that the game can be so much more than "DM vs PC's" then you'll all be able to enjoy the game a lot more. If the treasure truly is overpowering than a better solution would be to say "My bad guys" out of game and change the reward. If he's unwilling to work with you, or at the least explain where he's coming from, then perhaps this particular group isn't what you were looking for. If you're anywhere near the northwest suburbs of Chicago I could recommend you to a solid group of (mostly) mature players. They're almost always open to new members.
Thubby 08-13-07, 11:11 PM	seems like you and your group's styles conflict. not much to do, they don't seem willing to change, and i wouldn't if i were you. their realy are only 2 options put up with it find a new group edit: make that 3 DMing for them would be a good idea
Callista 08-13-07, 11:46 PM	You gotta work with the DM out of game. If you figured out you ended up with too much wealth, but your character wouldn't just sit around and let himself be tied up, then tell the DM that. You don't want a game that's either childishly easy, or else monsters that are too difficult for you but not for your gear (meaning you'd end up with a battle that could swing either way, every encounter). So you beat his scenario--cool. But your party still has a problem: You're too wealthy for your level. You, out of character, need to talk to the DM and say, OK, we have a problem; let's solve it. That way you will give the DM the feeling that you're working together, which is how it ought to be; and hopefully you can come up with a solution. The best one I can see is that your character could give up his things voluntarily; expensive gear can, for example, be sold to rebuild a village razed by the latest bad guys. If it's a village your character's felt at home in, has friends in, or even comes from (depending on how your backstory meshes with it), then even if he's a neutral guy, it's not out of character to give some money towards the rebuilding effort. If the DM won't work it into the story, try this: Get those wealth by level guidelines, total up your possessions, and take everything over that amount and sell it. Then take the gold and buy a piece of property--maybe a nice hangout for your party to relax in between adventures. That wouldn't add any to your power, effectively taking your wealth back to standard. If other players have a similar problem, have them pool the extra money and help you buy the place. Voila--new plot hook, extra wealth out of circulation, and DM happy. Make sure to point out to the DM why you did this, and that he should really talk to you guys about problems like this before he sends random thieves to cut you back down to size.
monai75 08-14-07, 01:50 AM	well to address a few things I should have clarified... #1 These guys are all older than me, and have been playing D+D and other role-playing games for a long time. The DM is also a longtime DM. And although he has several house rules That I feel are Broken, he does a pretty good job other than the issues I spoke of. #2 I AM a DM, and I DO run my own campaign currently. I habe been DMing since the late 80's-early 90's. #3 The equipment in question appropriate for our level. #4 I DID send the DM a Email asking if my character or style of play was bothering him or the group. I addressed the issue of my characters small victory ruining his planned out story path. And he assured me there was no problem. #5 We all know how hard it can be to find a good solid group to feel at home in. I do not want to give up on this group just yet, but the thought has crossed my mind. It took me this long to find a group that I DID NOT have to DM for, I want to see how it plays out. I guess I am wondering what causes a DM to try and KILL off the players as opposed to providing a campaign setting where the possibility of death is real, but the characters have a good opportunity to advance in level and have a long lasting campaign that all the players enjoy? That is what I strive for when I DM a campaign. I understand Death happens especially at lower levels. Last week was my campaign kick-off session for my new campaign. Three out of five characters died! But not because I killed them! They did stupid stuff. Setting rooms on fire, waiting to see if the kobold sorcerer's hyena was really going to attack them, dumb stuff like that. So, they all realized that death is a very real element to the game. And you can not run around doing whatever you want. Everything has repercussions. Sorry for the tangent! Anyway, I plan on continuing to play with the group. I am however going to ease up on how much effort and energy I put into my character. Now that I feel like the DM want to get rid of my little harmless Halfling Beguiler.
NordicBirch 08-14-07, 05:13 PM	well to address a few things I should have clarified... #1 These guys are all older than me, and have been playing D+D and other role-playing games for a long time. The DM is also a longtime DM. And although he has several house rules That I feel are Broken, he does a pretty good job other than the issues I spoke of. Unfortunately, having a long gaming history can mean that instead of well honed skills you only have well entrenched bad habits and well rehearsed lame justifications. Keep talking openly with them (email asking if there's a problem etc as you have done) but don't be surprised if for example the group feels that the best way to handle things is to deny problems and have the DM punish the characters until you change.
monai75 08-14-07, 08:33 PM	I am willing to give the group a fair chance to figure out a comfortable compromise. But, I am also prepared to either quit because they can not see the problems I have brought up, or be kicked-out because they are too stuck in their ways to keep me on board.
Cartigan 08-14-07, 08:40 PM	During the game one of the players even said "Look, he wants to take our magic items and gold because he wants to put us in our place, just give up and we can get on with the game!" My response to that would not be postable on these forums.
Dag 08-14-07, 11:12 PM	I don't see the railroading you speak of. In my opinion this DM deserves alot of credit. If he's taking all of this as personally as you make it seem then he certainly could have bested you even if you are a halfling beguiler. Sounds like he's allowed the train to skip off the railroad tracks by letting his bad-guy boss get charmed by your character and allowing your character to succeed in thwarting other schemes that the rest of the party seemed resigned to roll over for. Sure, he may have had a storyline based on your party being over-come by this, but the fact that you (and Im assuming the party) got away from that shows that he's not railroading. I really dont find too much fault with the DM in this case. He responded to your e-mail correctly and he's not rattling dice behind a screen with your down-fall already pre-arranged (like many DMs might do given the same circumstances). I do think that the other players would annoy the hell out of me, especially when they break out of game to try to get you to tow the line. As has been said, your styles clash, the other players seem willing to allow the DM to lead them and go along for the ride knowing it will guide them into the adventure, while you like to have your character drag and resist through what seems to be a combination of character grit and determination and through your own arrogance and desire for conflict. I say that only because I detect a note of Condescension in your post. If I'm wrong then accept apologies. Not sure what calling them goody goodies had to do with the rest of the post, this is just a small example of where it seems you're talking of the others as if they are inferiors. Lose ther attitude, lose the sense of superiority and do them the courtesy of joining THEIR game as an equal, not on a pedestal. I'm not suggesting that the in-game issues are your fault, because they mostly seem to be the result of a pre-existing playing style that most gamers would find annoying; but I doubt that your attitude is helping the situation.
monai75 08-15-07, 12:16 AM	The issue is not what happens In Game, but the way the rest of the group behaves as opposed to me. As far as being superior, NOT SO. I did join a group and I am doing all I can to addapt to their playing style. The whole reason for this post was to get some insight from other players and DM's. I do give the DM credit for doing what he does, and being able to roll with the punches so to speak. I just do not understand why a DM would go out of his way to KILL off a whole party just because they did not do exactly what he wanted or planned on. Isn't the whole point of playing D+D controlling characters in a environment the DM controls? I was also quite taken back when the other player told me to "Just give up so this will all be over and he (the DM) will be happy. I wanted to stop the game and address the shape these players where whipped into. They have been playing together for a long time, and I aggree that could also mean that I am the one who is wrong for even questioning their game style. I however do not play D+D so I can create a character (which includes a back story and characters quirks, and sometimes a miniature that I spend time painting) just to be killed off because the DM is having a bad day. The other players have made it clear to me that this is the type of DM we are playing with. So, the more and more I read this thread, The more I realize I am probably the one who has caused the problem. NOt because I think I am better, but because I have a different interpretation of how the game is played. I have managed to keep my character alive so far through 5 sessions. Three out of which one or more players died. And two of which My character thwarted a TPK attempt. I am going to just sit back and enjoy the game for what it is, instead of trying to push my game style down their throats. Thank you for the advise.
Jenny With The Lantern 08-15-07, 01:53 AM	seems like you and your group's styles conflict. not much to do, they don't seem willing to change, and i wouldn't if i were you. I still think Thubby is right: your gaming styles don't match. And from your description, I wouldn't want to play under that DM either. But if he has a solid group who stick with him, they must be having fun. You tried asking questions and it wasn't appreciated; if you can't live with the way he plays, you will need to find another group. It's a pity, but you'll all be happier for it.
LoneStranger 08-15-07, 02:13 AM	Don't feel bad that you've thwarted TPKs, feel bad for the party that's being semi-railroaded by this DM and just putting up with it. "Look, he wants to take our magic items and gold because he wants to put us in our place, just give up and we can get on with the game!" "You have got to be fracking kidding me." is how I'd respond to that comment, at least as far as this thread is concerned. I'm amazed that one of them said that thinking that's ok. I'd say see if you can do a mini-campaign for them (like level 1 to level 5 or 7 or so), show them what you're looking for and see what happens. If they don't get it you'd either have to just put up with it and play a collection of numbers and feats (sounds like they aren't really playing characters) or look into trying to find another D&D group. I know you don't want to have to consider that option but I'm afraid it may come down to it.
TheMonk 08-15-07, 09:23 AM	Alright, I think the OP is doing the right thing. I mean another player actually ASKED him to give up just like that...what the hell is that all about? I don't know what "overpowered" items you possess that the DM doesn't want you to have, but I bet you had to work damn hard for it. I mean if you're lv 2, and you defeat a CR 5 monster (if you get lucky rolls, somehow imprison it etc), and get a good weapon or other item from the monster, then you deserve it. I mean, I know as a player it would feel totally crap to go through all that and engage in a situation that means 80% chance of my character dying, just to come out the victor, get good stuff, and then have it taken away just like that. My point being - if you got a powerful item, then you probably worked hard for it or risked your life for it, and you damn well deserve it. And the player who told you to give up should stick his dice where the sun don't shine, and realize that people deserve stuff they get, because in order to get that stuff, you have to overcome difficult challenges, and the stuff is the reward for your troubles. I mean come on...I've never heard a player say something ridiculous as "Just give up, because the DM wants to put us in our place". Don't give up, you worked for it, you deserve it. Have the DM advance you a few levels higher, where that particular item will be balanced and there you have it. I am no DM, but this sounds very wrong to me.
Grogmir 08-15-07, 10:22 AM	There’s a lot of issues here. Old group being invaded by a supier player. A group that doesn’t gel with your style An aggressive DM (1 kill per week? In our group that would mean we never went up a level) I do sense a little of the condescension that Dag mentioned (although the goody goody thing was an IC thing. Beguilers try and trick people.. Which the Goody Goody classes don’t seem to like) but you have also tried to sort this out in a calm manner. I think the biggest thing on this thread is the ‘Look just give up’ As this is the only direct piece of eveidence. This shows that the DM could be better (although he seems strong in other departments) and that the other players are a little ****** at you, which you should be aware of. I don’t really have a lot of suggestions… I would do as you suggest and just go with the flow a bit more. I would contradict others here though. I think offering to DM for them would be a terrible idea. Right now they see you as an outside, with you different ways and annoying questions… To then say “Well you’re all doing it wrong so why don’t I take over’ Well I’m sure that’s not in that ‘win friends and influence people’ book. Do your time – get to know them – don’t argue with the DM all the time about everything. Railroads come and railroads go won’t make the greatest game but will it really ruin it?… and remember one thing. If the DM wanted you dead – you wouldn’t have last until the 5th session! Grogmir
NordicBirch 08-15-07, 11:32 AM	and remember one thing. If the DM wanted you dead – you wouldn’t have last until the 5th session! True as such but... Just because a DM is lousy and vindictive (or however you feel this one should be described) doesn't mean they're willing to totally throw the rules out the window. Maybe this DM sucks in certain departments (if he has players who feel they should be put in their place regularly, I wouldn't walk but run from the table) but is a total stickler for the rules (as he sees them, but still). So he might not see anything wrong with killing a character to show off to a player but isn't willing to break the rules or compromise a certain level of believability or something. Who knows, there are many levels of suckiness available for DMs.
monai75 08-15-07, 11:33 AM	Powerful Item in question= Ever smoke bottle. which helped facilitate my escape from the encounter where I was told to "just give up." This item was found in a cavern in the party's second session. The DM had planted it there and we found it. I am going to do my best to lay low on the radar and just go with the flow of the group. I do not feel I am better than anyone. I also do not want to come off that way. I just wanted to know what other players think of this type of situation. I understand groups have their own ways of playing. As well as there own way of working out problems. The goody good thing was a way to express my problems "in game" between the beguiler and the paladin and cleric ( both LG).
tankschmidt 08-15-07, 01:29 PM	I think you and Grogmir have the best idea. As you say, these guys are friends and have been playing for some time together. They probably like things the way they are, so I'd go along with them. If it's obvious the DM is trying to introduce a point in the story, go with the flow. Come prepared with an extra character to the next game, in case you do end up dead. I'd recommend a good-hearted bard to support the party and to mesh with them a little better. Try to stick with core rules and avoid stepping on the toes of any other characters.
Rederik 08-15-07, 05:09 PM	Powerful Item in question= Ever smoke bottle. which helped facilitate my escape from the encounter where I was told to "just give up." This item was found in a cavern in the party's second session. The DM had planted it there and we found it. I am going to do my best to lay low on the radar and just go with the flow of the group. I do not feel I am better than anyone. I also do not want to come off that way. I just wanted to know what other players think of this type of situation. I understand groups have their own ways of playing. As well as there own way of working out problems. The goody good thing was a way to express my problems "in game" between the beguiler and the paladin and cleric ( both LG). I am not going to say your are wrong, however, I do want to offer some suggestions of change. These changes are contingent on want to remain with the group. If you don't want to change, then leave the group... Play a character that meshes with the party a little better... Why does the "goody-goodies" keep you around? Unfortunalty, alot of times when there is in-character conflict, it gets drug out-of-character. It sucks but it happens. Also, like someone else said, whatever new character you make, try and stick to core-y type stuff. Alot of times if new people are using alot of "new stuff" the others don't understand, it confuses them and they don't like it. Finally, i would try and assimilate to their play style... You are going in to their game after all. Good luck and good gaming...
concerro 08-15-07, 09:52 PM	I personally could not play in a game like that. I understand that it upsets DM's when you go around their plans, but it happens and the DM should know this, and as a DM I would prefer to play with creative players. I know they mess up encounters and sessions at times, but they also make the game more fun, and I think it they makes DM's better doing so. If you are willing to toe the line then stay, but if the game isn't fun then maybe you should look for a hobby until you can find another group.
Ack 08-16-07, 05:25 PM	About the only good about this GM that I can see is he isn't actually cheating (ie, fudging dice, using instakill) to get his way. But he's got the other players basically knuckling under to him ... that is wrong on so many levels. I've been in a group like that - the GM was obviously setting up a fall for the group, and I pulled them out of no less than three trap situations single-handedly, where they were just walking right into them. And so when all the other PCs were mentally dominated, they willingly imprisoned my character. Not a happy camper. I left that group soon after. I personally hold the attitude that if the GM put it in the game, he can't complain if I use it and try to keep it. And that includes my character's freedom and right to survive. The GM is welcome to try to kill my character - so long as he gives me a fair chance to try and survive. "Just give up" doesn't apply, and never will.
Ikyotojin 08-16-07, 05:35 PM	Personally I love when a player knows their character like a character in a long running show. What that individual would or would not do is up to that set of guidelines. Personally I think your DM and the other players are just not used to someone being able to roleplay and think.
concerro 08-17-07, 12:01 AM	About the only good about this GM that I can see is he isn't actually cheating (ie, fudging dice, using instakill) to get his way. But he's got the other players basically knuckling under to him ... that is wrong on so many levels. If he can convince the players to hurl themselves onto the spear, down a bottomless pit etc... there is no need to cheat.
Yeg 08-17-07, 01:22 PM	I say just to ignore all the other players if they want you to give up the things that you have gotten. Seriously, if you have passed that many challenges by the DM, then you deserve to keep all the magic items that you have gotten unfairly or too easy (according to DM). Just go back the next time and continue RPing the way you were and play your character the way you were. I am sure that everyone else will adjust and start thinking that giving crap away like that is a big waste instead of trying to defend it with. Ask yourself, if you were that character would you willingly do all that. I sure wouldn't, I would fight for the last copper of my crap.
Kintara 08-17-07, 01:44 PM	This sounds a whole lot like a failed group I was in. The DM is attempting to do two contradictory things. He's trying to tell his story, but he feels obligated to give you the freedom to do what you want none-the-less. The problem is that if you exercise that freedom, then the illusion of being able to tell his story to you while still giving you freedom is broken. This, in my opinion, is why everyone's uncomfortable. They are used to a set up where the DM leads and the players "voluntarily" follow. I use the scare quotes because I doubt the DM would be able to handle it if the players decided to stay off-script forever. He'd have a meltdown. That was my experience, but it was with a less experienced DM. This group's longer history might mean that both the players and the DM have gravitated to this play-style because it really is the best fit for them. Some players like the reactive quality of a game like this because it doesn't require much action on their part (i.e., they aren't interested in being especially proactive), or gives them some space to immerse. It's not inherently a bad thing. It's not my cup o' tea, however.