Am I stuck? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I stuck? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Neeb, Magus of the Unseen
06-19-04, 08:33 AM Here's my dilemma:

Upon gaining 6th level, my wizard progressed into Incantatrix levels, which worked perfectly in the campaign, as well as providing a powerful and interesting PrC. The starting ability of this class allows a wizard to specialize in a second school, which at the time struck me as a magnificent ability - an extra spell slot and a bonus to spellcraft all for the low, low price of giving up a school in which I had no interest.

However, my fun was ruined when my DM found a quote that I had missed in the PHB - specifically, "one of the two free spells [gained from levelling up] must be from the wizard's specialty school" (PHB3.0, pg 155). As such, my DM ruled that because my ill-informed wizard had two specializations, he must take the spells from the two specialized schools - in my case, Necromancy and Abjuration.

Because of the fast-paced nature of the campaign (admittedly, the speed at which events progress has been one of the high points of an overall exemplary effort by my DM), I haven't really had a chance to let my wizard do proper research, although I did create a "shack on skis" (hehe) to function as a mobile laboratory. So, I haven't had much opportunity to gain the benefits of serious spell research.

My party desperately needs an offensive caster, and obviously, taking spells from low-level Necromancy and Abjuration isn't really going to help them out. So, my query is this: is there any way to weasel out of this rule and allow my wizard to take a spell not from these two schools while leveling up? I realize I'm probably stuck, but I never underestimate the rules-lawyer-y wiles of you folks.

Thanks in advance,
Neeb!
ehrin
06-19-04, 10:54 AM I would say just follow the rule as written...

ONE of the spells must be from the school of specialization. That means ONE spell at each level must come from either of your schools.

The other one is free to come from any school not prohibited to you.

However, you have already broken the rule on specializing, so turning around and asking to hold fast to THIS rule after breaking another leaves you on shaky legal ground.
General Dorsey
06-19-04, 11:11 AM That seems a bit harsh. I don't think WotC considered that. I think that you already have enough penalties without restricting you like that. It's one thing to have to chose one spell (which is part of being a specialist), it's another to have to choose both.

My question to you would be: are you getting spells from other sources such as scrolls and spellbooks of casters you've defeated? If not, let your DM know that you need them, just like he would add other appropriate treasure for other PCs (light armor for rogues, magical swords for the fighter, etc.).

If this doesn't work, then let him know that it would only be fair to let you create a new character of equal level now that he is introducing a rule that changes your character concept.

If that doesn't work, then you'll have to find some time to research new spells. Hopefully the party won't adventure without you gaining experience and leaving you farther behind.
hekker
06-19-04, 11:21 AM COuld you not copy spells from other schools from the spellbooks of BBEG wizards you have slain? Or copy spells from a friendly wizards spellbook (maybe for a small fee)? Or you could just copy them from scrolls you find in the dungeons etc or scrolls you buy.
Neeb, Magus of the Unseen
06-19-04, 01:19 PM Thanks for your replies, folks. They're really appreciated.

I'll ask my DM to give me the one of two as a free choice spell - with your support, I hope he'll agree.

As far as BBEG wiz spells - we're playing in a low magic world (with my char being one of very few casters proper), and the wiz who trained my character has revealed himself to be one of the head honchos of the BBEG organization, and a lich no less. So, sooner or later, I'll get his book (or die in a very, very uncomfortable fashion and the point will be moot :angel: ). To my knowledge, all other magic users have been divine or sorcs. I'll ask him to include more, though. He's a good guy, I'm sure we can meet at a middle ground.

Anyway, thanks again for your time and replies.
celloshane
06-19-04, 04:19 PM I would agree that your DM is being overly harsh to restrict you to spells only from your specialized schools. If he had required you to say; alternate between the two schools every level, I could have understood. I'd ask if alternating is an appropriate middle ground.

However, I also think Necromancy is one of the most underated offensive schools in the book. At 3rd level spells you have Vampiric Touch a first rate spell if there ever was one. Combine it with Spectral Hand for maximum effect. Ray of Exhaustion is also an excellent 3rd level spell. If the campaign is undead heavy, go with Halt Undead. For 4th level take your pick between Enervation and Fear. 5th level is a little light, but if you have access to supplements (Tome & Blood, spells from WotC's website, FR ect.) you're sure to find something useful. 6th level and beyond is where Necro's power really kicks in; Finger of Death, Horrid Wilting, Wail of the Banshee are all spells that really pack a punch.

Also, is there no other way to gain spells beyond research? Are there any ways to by scrolls, seek out other wizards, maybe even raid the tombs of ancient wizards? I know you said it's a low magic campaign, but explain to the DM that you won't be fulfilling your character role if you can't provide at least some versatility in spells. If he won't budge on that, you might want to speak to the party about gaining a little downtime. Perhaps one of them can pull your shack as you travel, allowing you to remain inside and work? If nothing else, maybe the party can arrange a way for you to enforce a little downtime.
trapspringer
06-19-04, 04:30 PM In a low-magic campaign, I think the DM is sort of stuck. He cna't actually make scrolls plentiul, and magical texts will be rare. Such is the price you pay.
Steelwill
06-19-04, 04:53 PM Hmm double edged sword, generally if I was DM'ing a 'low magic" capaign I would probably discourage a wizard as a class choice, especially since they, more than any other casting class, rely heavily upon items, other's spellbooks and scrolls, etc to gain their power, which by definition would not be abundant in a low magic world. HOWEVER if I was DM'ing a 'low magic" campaign and was paradoxical enough to allow a Wizard in the group, I would endeavor not, NOT, to make the wizard player pay for my bad judgment, and offer some options for her character. Since that is where your DM is at, I would highly recommend that he offer you an occasional scroll or NPC spellbook to learn from. I do not however fault his interpretation of the rules that you must draw both your level spells, since you have 2 specialty schools, from only your specializations. I personally think his lenience should come from letting you get your hands on more spells from other sources, not in letting you step around a logical interpretation of the rules. Allowing all the benefits a class or rule imparts but then smoothing over the penalties for convenience is a bad idea in my opinion, but that's all it is, My 2 cents.
trapspringer
06-20-04, 05:03 PM I'd be askin' to switch classes at this point, largely in the intrests of preserving the campaign setting.
primemover003
06-20-04, 05:20 PM The incantatrix is a pretty magic intensive PrC for such a low magic world... Sounds like a bad choice to me.
Edward
06-20-04, 05:43 PM If you are getting 2 bonus spells per spell level for specialisation then yes they must be filled with spells from your specialist schools. You still have plenty of other spell slots for other spells.

The ruling that when you level both your free spells must come from your specialty schools is not correct in my interpretation. It clearly states "ONE of the two free spells [gained from levelling up] must be from the wizard's specialty school".

Also by denying you the ability to learn spells of other schools he has effectively made all other schools banned. Withe 2 spells per level 1 being from a specialty school wizards are reasonably versatile. If you are limited to 2 schools you are fare les versatile than a sorcerer or even a psion.

Also if there are a modest number of sorcerers some will have craft scroll so you could find scrolls of spells you don’t know.

The ruling he made is a house rule that cripples your character. If I was in your position I would be requesting permission to rework my class levels out of the PRC that he crippled. Or create a new character. If he persists in this house rule.

Edward

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neeb, Magus of the Unseen 06-19-04, 08:33 AM	Here's my dilemma: Upon gaining 6th level, my wizard progressed into Incantatrix levels, which worked perfectly in the campaign, as well as providing a powerful and interesting PrC. The starting ability of this class allows a wizard to specialize in a second school, which at the time struck me as a magnificent ability - an extra spell slot and a bonus to spellcraft all for the low, low price of giving up a school in which I had no interest. However, my fun was ruined when my DM found a quote that I had missed in the PHB - specifically, "one of the two free spells [gained from levelling up] must be from the wizard's specialty school" (PHB3.0, pg 155). As such, my DM ruled that because my ill-informed wizard had two specializations, he must take the spells from the two specialized schools - in my case, Necromancy and Abjuration. Because of the fast-paced nature of the campaign (admittedly, the speed at which events progress has been one of the high points of an overall exemplary effort by my DM), I haven't really had a chance to let my wizard do proper research, although I did create a "shack on skis" (hehe) to function as a mobile laboratory. So, I haven't had much opportunity to gain the benefits of serious spell research. My party desperately needs an offensive caster, and obviously, taking spells from low-level Necromancy and Abjuration isn't really going to help them out. So, my query is this: is there any way to weasel out of this rule and allow my wizard to take a spell not from these two schools while leveling up? I realize I'm probably stuck, but I never underestimate the rules-lawyer-y wiles of you folks. Thanks in advance, Neeb!
ehrin 06-19-04, 10:54 AM	I would say just follow the rule as written... ONE of the spells must be from the school of specialization. That means ONE spell at each level must come from either of your schools. The other one is free to come from any school not prohibited to you. However, you have already broken the rule on specializing, so turning around and asking to hold fast to THIS rule after breaking another leaves you on shaky legal ground.
General Dorsey 06-19-04, 11:11 AM	That seems a bit harsh. I don't think WotC considered that. I think that you already have enough penalties without restricting you like that. It's one thing to have to chose one spell (which is part of being a specialist), it's another to have to choose both. My question to you would be: are you getting spells from other sources such as scrolls and spellbooks of casters you've defeated? If not, let your DM know that you need them, just like he would add other appropriate treasure for other PCs (light armor for rogues, magical swords for the fighter, etc.). If this doesn't work, then let him know that it would only be fair to let you create a new character of equal level now that he is introducing a rule that changes your character concept. If that doesn't work, then you'll have to find some time to research new spells. Hopefully the party won't adventure without you gaining experience and leaving you farther behind.
hekker 06-19-04, 11:21 AM	COuld you not copy spells from other schools from the spellbooks of BBEG wizards you have slain? Or copy spells from a friendly wizards spellbook (maybe for a small fee)? Or you could just copy them from scrolls you find in the dungeons etc or scrolls you buy.
Neeb, Magus of the Unseen 06-19-04, 01:19 PM	Thanks for your replies, folks. They're really appreciated. I'll ask my DM to give me the one of two as a free choice spell - with your support, I hope he'll agree. As far as BBEG wiz spells - we're playing in a low magic world (with my char being one of very few casters proper), and the wiz who trained my character has revealed himself to be one of the head honchos of the BBEG organization, and a lich no less. So, sooner or later, I'll get his book (or die in a very, very uncomfortable fashion and the point will be moot :angel: ). To my knowledge, all other magic users have been divine or sorcs. I'll ask him to include more, though. He's a good guy, I'm sure we can meet at a middle ground. Anyway, thanks again for your time and replies.
celloshane 06-19-04, 04:19 PM	I would agree that your DM is being overly harsh to restrict you to spells only from your specialized schools. If he had required you to say; alternate between the two schools every level, I could have understood. I'd ask if alternating is an appropriate middle ground. However, I also think Necromancy is one of the most underated offensive schools in the book. At 3rd level spells you have Vampiric Touch a first rate spell if there ever was one. Combine it with Spectral Hand for maximum effect. Ray of Exhaustion is also an excellent 3rd level spell. If the campaign is undead heavy, go with Halt Undead. For 4th level take your pick between Enervation and Fear. 5th level is a little light, but if you have access to supplements (Tome & Blood, spells from WotC's website, FR ect.) you're sure to find something useful. 6th level and beyond is where Necro's power really kicks in; Finger of Death, Horrid Wilting, Wail of the Banshee are all spells that really pack a punch. Also, is there no other way to gain spells beyond research? Are there any ways to by scrolls, seek out other wizards, maybe even raid the tombs of ancient wizards? I know you said it's a low magic campaign, but explain to the DM that you won't be fulfilling your character role if you can't provide at least some versatility in spells. If he won't budge on that, you might want to speak to the party about gaining a little downtime. Perhaps one of them can pull your shack as you travel, allowing you to remain inside and work? If nothing else, maybe the party can arrange a way for you to enforce a little downtime.
trapspringer 06-19-04, 04:30 PM	In a low-magic campaign, I think the DM is sort of stuck. He cna't actually make scrolls plentiul, and magical texts will be rare. Such is the price you pay.
Steelwill 06-19-04, 04:53 PM	Hmm double edged sword, generally if I was DM'ing a 'low magic" capaign I would probably discourage a wizard as a class choice, especially since they, more than any other casting class, rely heavily upon items, other's spellbooks and scrolls, etc to gain their power, which by definition would not be abundant in a low magic world. HOWEVER if I was DM'ing a 'low magic" campaign and was paradoxical enough to allow a Wizard in the group, I would endeavor not, NOT, to make the wizard player pay for my bad judgment, and offer some options for her character. Since that is where your DM is at, I would highly recommend that he offer you an occasional scroll or NPC spellbook to learn from. I do not however fault his interpretation of the rules that you must draw both your level spells, since you have 2 specialty schools, from only your specializations. I personally think his lenience should come from letting you get your hands on more spells from other sources, not in letting you step around a logical interpretation of the rules. Allowing all the benefits a class or rule imparts but then smoothing over the penalties for convenience is a bad idea in my opinion, but that's all it is, My 2 cents.
trapspringer 06-20-04, 05:03 PM	I'd be askin' to switch classes at this point, largely in the intrests of preserving the campaign setting.
primemover003 06-20-04, 05:20 PM	The incantatrix is a pretty magic intensive PrC for such a low magic world... Sounds like a bad choice to me.
Edward 06-20-04, 05:43 PM	If you are getting 2 bonus spells per spell level for specialisation then yes they must be filled with spells from your specialist schools. You still have plenty of other spell slots for other spells. The ruling that when you level both your free spells must come from your specialty schools is not correct in my interpretation. It clearly states "ONE of the two free spells [gained from levelling up] must be from the wizard's specialty school". Also by denying you the ability to learn spells of other schools he has effectively made all other schools banned. Withe 2 spells per level 1 being from a specialty school wizards are reasonably versatile. If you are limited to 2 schools you are fare les versatile than a sorcerer or even a psion. Also if there are a modest number of sorcerers some will have craft scroll so you could find scrolls of spells you don’t know. The ruling he made is a house rule that cripples your character. If I was in your position I would be requesting permission to rework my class levels out of the PRC that he crippled. Or create a new character. If he persists in this house rule. Edward