Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OmniPaul 05-22-04, 08:25 PM	In my gaming sessions, we recently gained a new member. This new member is doing a few things that I think are generally annoying. However, I'm not sure if the one that needs a change of attitude is him or me. The new guy, who used 4d6 drop lowest while the rest of us used 32 point buy, has this annoying tendency to rollplay. For example, when our DM asked only one of us to make a listen check, the new guy decides to make a listen check anyways and when he rolls high, he says "I heard it." Another thing he does is what I think is called metagaming. In one session, one of the slain enemies had a powerful weapon that we looted. The new guy goes ahead and calculates how much the weapon should cost and keeps telling us that he'll pay us 9000 gp for the weapon. Finally, he has this habit to react to whatever little things the DM tells us if it has the slightest indication of possible loot. Example: Ranger makes a spot check and sees something. Ranger walks over to the thing he saw. The very first thing that happens after that is declared is the new guy responding with, "I follow the ranger." So am I wrong for not liking the new guy? Should I just be more accepting to this playstyle?
Murmos 05-22-04, 08:34 PM	My answer to your questions is a mild "no." He sounds like a simple newbie who doesn't get the roleplaying part yet. Just explain that the DM makes Listen rolls and steer him away from his meta- and power-gaming tendencies and he should be fine. If not . . . well, you tried your best. ;)
Talisk 05-22-04, 09:43 PM	He's new which will be annoying for awhile, but when he gets the hang of it things will probably be okay. You might want to talk to your DM about the player though if the problem persists. Its the DMs job to make sure players are in line. The player needs to be told not to tell whether he hears or sees something. Thats what the DM is for.
Winternova 05-22-04, 10:07 PM	Originally posted by OmniPaul The new guy, who used 4d6 drop lowest while the rest of us used 32 point buy, has this annoying tendency to rollplay. For example, when our DM asked only one of us to make a listen check, the new guy decides to make a listen check anyways and when he rolls high, he says "I heard it."[/B] One of my old players did that too, but it was more out of laziness/convenience. There were never numbers, he either made it, or missed it - but what did he roll? "A million." Behaviour like that, IMO should be at least slightly discouraged. All in all, I think this fellow just needs the player knowledge vs. character knowledge lecture.
Eldren 05-23-04, 01:06 AM	No, the DM doesn't make Listen rolls. :) That's a holdover from 2nd Edition, when the Dungeon Master made certain rolls like the Thief's "Move Silently" or "Hide In Shadows", because the Thief always thought they were being quiet or well-hidden, but didn't know for sure. With 3rd Edition, the players make all their PC's rolls, and the Dungeon Master does opposed checks on behalf of the monsters. In this case, if someone is rolling a Listen check, the Dungeon Master rolls a Move Silently check, and whoever's result is higher wins. The player sounds mildly annoying, but it doesn't sound like he's doing it intentionally; it sounds like he's new to the game, and hasn't picked up on some of the finer points of gaming etiquette yet. Take him aside and pull the lad under your wing, and offer to show him the ropes, to insure that long after he's left your group, he'll have a reasonable chance of joining another group and not be asked to leave after one session. :)
Moonstonedragon 05-23-04, 01:30 AM	New players can be annoying, specially the ones that go around killing and destroying everything in their path and being a general pain in the ----- First, if you do the point system, he has to as well, if he doesnt like it tough! Second, as far as skills go, never tell the player the dc, just tell them to make the check or else you always get the people that "just passed" and such Third, if he wants to buy it off the others for full price go ahead and let him, then in next encounter the players find another good item. also make sure to keep track of his money, new players in my games never have 9000 gold to just spend.
SmallPumpkinMan 05-23-04, 02:22 AM	Originally posted by Eldren No, the DM doesn't make Listen rolls. :) That's a holdover from 2nd Edition, when the Dungeon Master made certain rolls like the Thief's "Move Silently" or "Hide In Shadows", because the Thief always thought they were being quiet or well-hidden, but didn't know for sure. With 3rd Edition, the players make all their PC's rolls, and the Dungeon Master does opposed checks on behalf of the monsters. In this case, if someone is rolling a Listen check, the Dungeon Master rolls a Move Silently check, and whoever's result is higher wins. The player sounds mildly annoying, but it doesn't sound like he's doing it intentionally; it sounds like he's new to the game, and hasn't picked up on some of the finer points of gaming etiquette yet. Take him aside and pull the lad under your wing, and offer to show him the ropes, to insure that long after he's left your group, he'll have a reasonable chance of joining another group and not be asked to leave after one session. :) No, a lot of GM's like to make spot/listen/sense motive rolls behind a screen, to stop metagaming, eg. DM: Make a listen check... PC: Uh, I roll a one DM: You don't hear anything PC: I draw my weapon and cast my buffs etc... It's a suggestion in the GMs handbook. Of course some GMs just make the PCs make checks when there's nothing there. :smirk:
Eldren 05-23-04, 02:54 AM	There's a quick solution for players like that: They receive an e-mail during the week, between sessions, saying "Thanks for playing, but you don't really fit in the group. There's no need for you to show up at next week's session." Then you put them in your blocked list, so you don't have to listen to their complaints about being ejected. I have no tolerance for players who are unable to separate player knowledge from character knowledge. There's no point to the opposed roll if the DM is going to make their rolls for them. There's no point in the player even bothering to note their skill ranks for Listen on their character sheet if the DM is going to roll their Listen checks; the player just needs to tell the Dungeon Master when they put some more ranks in the skill. One of the worst parts of 1st Edition and 2nd Edition were all the instances where a PC's fate was taken out of a player's hands because the rules indicated that the Dungeon Master was supposed to make that roll for the player. If they were, why even bother making it information available to the player in the first place? With 3rd Edition, they included a mechanic that would let the player maintain nearly 100% control, as far as die rolls went, over their PC, and still have the chance for the DM to pull off a surprise. But, wonder of wonders, it assumes that the player in question is someone with the intelligence to separate what the player knows from what the character knows. The game is inherently optimistic that way. So yes, the players ought to be making their Listen rolls. If a Dungeon Master is in a gaming situation where he/she has to make Listen rolls for the PCs, then the Dungeon Master obviously needs to be seeking a more mature group of players to game with. I know it sounds trite, but that's the honest reality. Just as a PC shouldn't be able to talk about the Third Law of Thermodynamics (all things eventually fall apart), because thermodynamics isn't a science that's studied in most Dungeons & Dragons worlds, the PC shouldn't automatically act as though they know something is there when the rolls the player makes indicate they don't know a thing. That's why the players often make a roll to begin with: To let them know how their character should be reacting in a given situation. The onus then falls on the player to do what the dice say. If the Listen check beats the monster's Move Silently check, then the PC can draw their weapon and act (or at least roll initiative). If the Move Silently check exceeds the PC's Listen check, then they stand there dumbly for a round while they're savaged by something that was good enough to sneak up on them. Then if they survive, they roll initiative, and try to lay out some holy Hell on the thing that just messed them up. Almost never take a roll out of a player's hands...
Glak 05-23-04, 03:08 AM	"There's a quick solution for players like that: They receive an e-mail during the week, between sessions, saying "Thanks for playing, but you don't really fit in the group. There's no need for you to show up at next week's session." Then you put them in your blocked list, so you don't have to listen to their complaints about being ejected." Do you have friends anymore? This is not a flame but a serious question. You must have Cha of 18+ to get away with this. Or no friends. As for the new player, some of that stuff is to be expected. 3rd edition pratically assumes that characters have little catalogs of magical items that they order from. They way he sees it, how could an adventurer not know that the sword is worth 9000gp? If you want a better experience set the tone, don't let the books do that. Ask him to only read the PHB. He rolls a check when you don't want him to? Explain that you don't want vast amounts of rolling to bog down the game. He follows the ranger? Well then the ranger gets a -4 to the next listen check because of the distraction. Have the other characters ask him why he is following the ranger. A lot of this can be solved by educating him about the campaign setting and by having the other characters react to his character in character.
zerpentor 05-23-04, 08:14 AM	had a player a little like that once.. I was the DM at the time and I challenged him every time he metagamed. I asked him questions like: How do you know that? Why are you doing that? What makes you think that? that sort of thing.. if he couldnt answer the questions with reasonable answers then i would explain to him how silly that would look in real life if he did the same things. The player actually learned the Roleplay basics pretty quickly and found out that by playing along, his character would do much better in the long run.. this kind of player is the typical diablo player with a "I gotta be able to beat the other players with my character! I gotta have all the bestest loot and deal the most damage! If I don't I'm a gimp and it's no fun to play" view on the game.
zerpentor 05-23-04, 08:18 AM	Next time yall get together for a session have a talk with the newbie and explain to him the basics of YOUR style of play.. For example theres no reason for him to pay 9000gp for a weapon that the group found.. he should automaticly get the weapon if he is the one that would wield it most effiently. You know.. "For the good of the Group" etc.
Talisk 05-23-04, 05:20 PM	I'm not saying the players shouldn't roll. I always let them roll, but they can't tell me whether they hear something or not because they don't know the DC and they never should. You shouldn't even tell them that there is a DC. I have my players roll spot and listen every time they enter a room that way they will still be cautious whether there is something there or not.
Cyricist 05-23-04, 05:40 PM	Whenever I have my players roll for listen or spot, I make sure any other action inappropriate is cut off by a 'no' if they don't make the check. This is easy when surprised or stalked by a monster, since buffs usually last a short while (well most do) and players soon discover monsters aren't always half wits and can make out spellcasters when they see them. I oft let the monster retreat or wait a while, if it's smart enough not to attack from suprise immediately, then the buffs are wasted and the player will conclude it wasn't a very sound RP action. With skill checks I've had the same issue, but I had to use a little bit more tact. Luckily I have players that I can explain the difference to, though some are hard to press into more roleplay and less rollplay. Showing them it won't help them if they constantly throw dice around without those rolls being called for works best in my experience. Just make it look like a really silly thing and point out you'll call for a roll when needed, unless there is a good IC reason for the player to initiate the roll (like a search in a seemingly empty room).
Vaettyr 05-25-04, 11:20 AM	A lot of people have made the assumption that this player is new to the game, but I for one have played with people who've been gaming longer than I have who have similar habits. Especially with the loot thing, which is one of my pet peeves. It's instances like that where it's the DM's responsibility to step in and ask 1) Why is your character doing _____, and 2) if said reason is metagaming, inform them that they're not doing it. They'll argue quite a bit at first, but slowly they'll start getting the idea of separating character knowledge and player knowledge.
eRaz0r 05-25-04, 02:00 PM	I agree. It's not that this player is new to the game - just new to this group. He displays quite a bit of savvy in using the rules to his advantage. He's obviously roll-played quite extensively and no one has called him on it. Offering to pay cash for loot also displays a highly self-centered view. This guy doesn't understand how people work. He's brash and annoying. Everything revolves around him and he trusts no one to act in his best interest (ie, as a member of the party) because he tends not to think of others as individuals with their own wants and needs. I expect he plays either a fighter or a rogue, or some combination for ultimate deadliness, combined with looting potential, survivability, and self-reliance. (If this is a high-level game, he might play a wizard or cleric for their uberness at those levels). His attributes are uniformly high, although not so high as to arouse suspicion of cheating. He'll have the very limit of allowable loot for his starting character, optimized for his abilities. He will somehow have just the skill/ability/item to survive on his own, so that he doesn't need to rely on the party. If he can't do it himself, he'll have built his character so that he won't need it. Everyone else is there just so they know how great his character really is. Am I right ? On a different note: some DM's build mood by rolling behind the screen. The Players are in charge of their PCs actions, but the DM is in charge of the world. If the DM is building tension for a dramatic upcoming combat in the PLAYERS, he can use various techniques to do so - one of which is to get the players to roll spot and listen checks all the time, even when there's nothing there - and the other is to make those behind the screen (or fiat them). Part of the fun of the game is being surprised now and then. Building mood in the players has got nothing to do with separating Player knowledge from character knowledge and maturity levels. It's got everything to do with emotionally affecting the players themselves. So it's a legitimate technique to roll Spot and Listen for the PCs every now and then.
jasper 05-25-04, 11:49 PM	if he is new player forgive him but make him follow house rules and house code of conduct. Aka everyone one uses 32 pt buy If he is megagaming call him on it. Also a S.O.P for the group which he is made aware of. Ex. All rogues in party are checking for traps and checking over chests etc. So as a Dm I just mark the time spend on these activites and tell the two rouge players to make a Find Traps roll when there is an actual trap. NOW if both thieves fail their detect traps roll then who ever has the lead steps on the land mine. IF Bob suddenly decides Knuckles the Wall crawler has a bad feeling B.A. Sara, Brian , and Dave Look at Bob and tell no. NO. NO! and I roll damage for the trap. A S.O.P only works with a mature group. and some my mature players are younger than the cry babies/immature/megagamers. Of course I been called the deadliest Dm by one of my former players.
OmniPaul 05-26-04, 09:07 PM	Wow, thanks for all the replies! Originally posted by eRaz0r I agree. It's not that this player is new to the game - just new to this group. He displays quite a bit of savvy in using the rules to his advantage. He's obviously roll-played quite extensively and no one has called him on it. Offering to pay cash for loot also displays a highly self-centered view. This guy doesn't understand how people work. He's brash and annoying. Everything revolves around him and he trusts no one to act in his best interest (ie, as a member of the party) because he tends not to think of others as individuals with their own wants and needs. I expect he plays either a fighter or a rogue, or some combination for ultimate deadliness, combined with looting potential, survivability, and self-reliance. (If this is a high-level game, he might play a wizard or cleric for their uberness at those levels). His attributes are uniformly high, although not so high as to arouse suspicion of cheating. He'll have the very limit of allowable loot for his starting character, optimized for his abilities. He will somehow have just the skill/ability/item to survive on his own, so that he doesn't need to rely on the party. If he can't do it himself, he'll have built his character so that he won't need it. Everyone else is there just so they know how great his character really is. Am I right ? <snip> Amazing, that is exactly how he is. Although I like much of the advice you've all given, is there anything I can do as a player since I'm not the DM?
Vaettyr 05-26-04, 09:48 PM	My regular group is more than half DMs at one point or another (we trade off), so we tend to police our own pretty heavily. If one PC suspects another PC of metagaming, he calls him on it and 'splains why. It is stepping on the DM's toes a bit, but I don't see a problem with doing that part of a DM's job. If you can somehow get the other PCs to do the same it can really help curb that kind of rampant metagaming. If that's not an option however, there is something else I've tried occasionally in less mature groups. In any situation where you have to consciously not metagame, make it very apparent that you are doing so. If you roll a one on a spot check, make sure both the DM and this guy know that your character is going to proceed as if nothing happened. With any luck he'll wonder (and hopefully ask) why your PC reacts the way he does, and you can explain that you know something your character doesn't. Chances are those may not work, in which case I don't think I can really give you much advice. With any luck, in a balanced campaign he'll get bored that he's not as uber-cool as he wants to be and stop showing up. If not, just try and ignore his character, or push RP over combat as much as possible. Look for an excuse to get him into character. Anything that keeps him from smashing things and getting loot should make the game less interesting.
CJ1720 05-26-04, 10:58 PM	My suggestion is to role play your annoyance with some of his behavior. If he's offering to buy something from you for the book price, tell him you couldn't possibley part with for 5 times the amount. If he's following you because you're investigating something, "Hey! What are you a puppy? I work on my own in these situations. I'll call you if I need you! Got it?" Or milder as the case may be. Role play can work to your advantage. I once played a cleric of Olidammara and there was a particularly annoying character, so every time my cleric healed him, no matter what I intended, Olidammara would only grant a Cure Minor Wounds spell of 1 hp. "Oh sorry! That's just the jokester playing a prank. Don't shot the messenger!" Of course, I had to make a deal with the DM to do it, but it worked out in the end. There are tons of ways to deal with this kind of stuff IC. If you really want to encourage role play in your group, start here.
eRaz0r 05-26-04, 11:35 PM	OmniPaul - you have some options as a player. CJ1720 had some good ideas. Other options : Ignore him. Act like he doesn't even exist. If he's built his character to survive on his own, let him. Don't heal him, don't help him flank unless it really helps you. Don't discuss tactics with him. Don't even worry about it when he follows you around. Let him see what loot you find. If he even opens his mouth, act like you didn't even hear him. : The Silent Treatment. It's an extreme solution, but can be very effective : especially if you want him to leave the group... or you can dovetail it into... The Serious Guy. Take him very seriously. If he offers to buy something, talk about theories of party ownership, and ask if he really wishes to engage with the party on a purely mercantile level. If so, then you might want to ask the party how they want to assess divying up treasure, and treat the new guy as a mercenary deserving only a strict cut of the monetary assets uncovered. If he wants something else, he'll have to pay for it out of his monetary cut directly. With luck the other players will get sick of working out the exact price of everything in order to split it up correctly they'll just give him the finger. When he follows you around, ask him if he'd rather try being stealthy scout instead.. push him out front and tell him that you respect his evident trap-detecting abilities. etc etc. If that fails. I'm sure you could come up with other things. Of course, you could always try talking to him out of character, but I doubt that would work given his personality type.