Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gwydion 06-08-05, 10:04 PM	Just so I can see it in writing. I was playing in a campaign that was running for about three years. My last character died and I rolled up a new one. He was redilly accepted into the party and began adventuring. the party consisted of LG Dwarf Fighter (my immediate supirior) CN Dwarf Battlerager CE Human Barbarian/Cleric CE Halforc fighter NG Human Lasher and me a NE thirteen year old boy Mystic Theurge of Velsharoon (god of undeath) We traveled for a time and came upon a succubus who immediatly charmed me and decreed that I must kill the LG dwarf. One slay living later my task was complete. The battle ended, the charm wore off and I cast raise dead on the dwarf. The spell succeeded, and immediately I lost all divine abilities until I atoned. She said it was an overtly good act and it was against my god's dogma?!?! I know this is a loaded question, but do you all agree or disagree. I just got sick of reading the Oh my, look what my LG paladin did this week.
Templetroll 06-08-05, 10:52 PM	How is an LG dwarf the immediate superior of a theurge of Velsharoon? Why did the other evils in the group not interfere with the raising of the dwarf? Why did you raise the dwarf?
Skeane 06-08-05, 11:00 PM	This one really depends on your motive; If you sensed that you couldn't survive without the paladin's aid or that the deed would someone 'serve' your character in the end, then maybe this isn't against character. Even if it was a truly 'moral' act that doesn't mean that your character has made an alignment change. Sometimes good people do bad things, and are still on the whole good people. Likewise, occasionally a right bastard will do something nice (but remain, at heart, a right bastard).
Gedrin 06-09-05, 01:34 PM	Actually, Raise Dead costs the caster zip. If you took the components from the Dwarf's coffers, it's no big thing. Sure, it's nice, but you did wax the guy, and you sorta owed him after that. Did it cost you siginificantly to raise him? Not given your apparent level. Was it out of your way? Not really. Would there have been negative consequences to not raising him? Almost certainly the party would have had something to say about it...what with you killing him and all. Do you gain a benefit from it? Yes. The LG Dwarf now knows you can kill him and he is also indebted from your bringing him back. Are there negative consequences to raising him? Sorta. You did reanimate a goodly soul in the material world. However, this guy is traveling with you, so he's not that good really. Still, maybe it's just a slap on the wrist. You have to atone, but it involves something small like a minor sacrifice or contribution to the cause. Maybe you could even pledge to try and convert the dwarft to your dark ways. Better yet, get the dwarf to make a minor sacrifice to Velsharoon and ask that your powers (which are obviously helpful to him and the party) be returned...after all, he owes you.
Bruunwald 06-09-05, 01:35 PM	This one really depends on your motive; If you sensed that you couldn't survive without the paladin's aid or that the deed would someone 'serve' your character in the end, then maybe this isn't against character. Even if it was a truly 'moral' act that doesn't mean that your character has made an alignment change. Sometimes good people do bad things, and are still on the whole good people. Likewise, occasionally a right bastard will do something nice (but remain, at heart, a right bastard). Right. If you raised him for practical or utilitarian reasons (the party simply needs its leader to function, for instance), it's neither a good nor an evil act. Even if you raised him because you are fond of him, that could be construed as a selfish act. Even evil characters can prefer the company of one person over another. Raising him could just be what you want. That's not necessarily good, either. Or, if you were pressured to do so, well that's the same thing.
gwydion 06-09-05, 01:38 PM	The LG dwarf, not a paladin, was the defacto leader of the party signed me up as a paige, in service of his king. I was thirteen, he didn't know I was evil, sounded like a good idea to me The other evil party members had no issues with the dwarf, the alignment issues hadn't had time or oppertunity to surface yet. I raised the dwarf because he was my superior, and he was useful. I did have the potential to raise him as a JuJu Zombie, with all of his abilities, and even superior to his former self. I didn't however.
Gedrin 06-09-05, 01:41 PM	He'd probably have lost his job if you'd JuJu'd him. Most kings employing LG dwarves don't employ JuJu Zombies. If he lost his job, you'd loose yours too.
gwydion 06-09-05, 01:47 PM	Still, maybe it's just a slap on the wrist. You have to atone, but it involves something small like a minor sacrifice or contribution to the cause. Maybe you could even pledge to try and convert the dwarft to your dark ways. Better yet, get the dwarf to make a minor sacrifice to Velsharoon and ask that your powers (which are obviously helpful to him and the party) be returned...after all, he owes you. I would agree that atoning is minor except the fact that i worshiped Velsharoon. One doesn't exactly walk into town and go to the local temple of the Lich-God. My character had absolutely no knowledge of where to look. He learned his trade from a hermit and the reason why he started adventuring was because this one tie to his god died. The act of finding my god was difficult enough that I converted rather than finding a temple to Velsharoon.
Mind Rogue 06-09-05, 02:48 PM	Just so I can see it in writing. We traveled for a time and came upon a succubus who immediatly charmed me and decreed that I must kill the LG dwarf. One slay living later my task was complete. This should never have happened. A charm spell merely makes the succubus your friend, it does not make you a helpless minion. If the succubus asked you to kill a friend, your first response should be "why?". Remember that if the succubus does any overtly offensive act to either you or your allies (which I'm assuming your superior is) immediately breaks the spell. If the dwarf tried to attack the succubus, however, she could ask you to protect her, and since she's a trusted friend, you probably would. However, you don't have to use your most dangerous spells (like slay living) to do so (and you probably wouldn't if the thing you are protecting the succubus from is another ally). Instead, you can make use of less dangerous methods, such as the hold person or hypnotism spells, grappling, diplomacy, intimidation, disarming, or similar methods. All of this is subject to change, however, if the succcubus was to use domination rather than charm. Finally, reviving a useful ally is not an overtly good act. It is taking advantage of the resources at hand to give yourself another protector and tool.
Dragonsblood 06-09-05, 03:27 PM	Why would good characters travel with evil ones in the first place? I've never understood groups like this. NE Mystic "Hey guys, can I join you? My old teacher just died and I need to learn more about my god!" LG Leader "Maybe, what god do you follow?" NE Mystic "Velsharoon the lich god of undeath..." LG Leader "Hey great! Welcome aboard!"
Stafir Ortnev 06-10-05, 12:10 AM	Need mostly Dragonsblood. Or the Evil ones are good at hiding their alignment. Or they are friends, despite their alignment differences..so while loyal to each other, have a totally different outlook on life. Remember..not all evil is obvious....
Dragonsblood 06-10-05, 01:17 AM	Oh don't get me wrong. I can see that CE halforc fighter possibly joining a good group, but a cleric type is a whole nother story. Unless the character has a high bluff skill (which obviously isn't too common in clerics), just asking what god he worships would reveal his nature. Looking at his (un)holy symbol every time he casts a spell, then describing it to the local temple would reveal this regardless - maybe even getting a group of paladins breathing down the neck of said evil character.
Callista 06-10-05, 08:34 AM	It's the old "PC shirt" deal... you're a PC, they're PCs, and you metagame that they'll accept you. Common enough. There are in-game reasons, though; maybe these people have the same goal. Raising a companion (even a Good one) is probably a Neutral act... was it your personal devotion to a friend (a neutral trait) that made you want to do it? If so, Neutral act, and no problem. However, even a Neutral or Evil act can be against an evil god's will. In this case, it was on the Good side of Neutral--so was it against your god's will? Velsharoon.... hmmh. A god of undeath might rather you had raised the dwarf as a wraith or something... your devotion to the god is supposed to be higher than your devotion to your companions. Not that it would be, especially since your character is so young. So did the god want you to do something else? Raise the dwarf as a wraith or something, maybe? Because if he did, I can see him withdrawing powers from you. Evil gods are often quite fickle--they see you as a resource to be expended, and dropped if you don't do their will. Heck, evil characters are often like that! Question: What side was the Succubus on? If she was on your side--and consequently on your god's side--then perhaps that's why you lost your powers...
Dragonsblood 06-10-05, 12:36 PM	Yes well, in short if a player was stupid enough to make an evil cleric join a group lead by a LG character, and the other players had to resort to metagaming to explain the cleric's presence, as a DM I would be looking for ways to make him lose his powers.
Andrew_980 06-10-05, 02:16 PM	Eh, it's not that hard to immagine Dwarf: "I need a young man to be my page" evilboy:"i'll do it, i need to see the world and get a chance to study new things" Dwarf:"Ok you get the job, pack up we leave tomarrow" He hired him with (possably) no knowlege of him being a cleric or evil
gwydion 06-10-05, 05:59 PM	Eh, it's not that hard to immagine Dwarf: "I need a young man to be my page" evilboy:"i'll do it, i need to see the world and get a chance to study new things" Dwarf:"Ok you get the job, pack up we leave tomarrow" He hired him with (possably) no knowlege of him being a cleric or evil And with no knowledge religion, and no detect evil or any such thing, it's not even that much of a stretch. They witnessed me as an arcane caster. The first divine spell I ever cast in front of them was said raise dead spell. My holy symbol, an orc skull with two rubies in his eye sockets and a golden band affixed to it like a crown, was adorning the top of my quarterstaff and could have been easily mistaken for a trophey of war, was not even noticable as a holy symbol unless someone was looking for it
Mind Rogue 06-10-05, 06:19 PM	Also, keep in mind that not all divine spells require a (un)holy symbol. In fact, all of the cure and inflict spells (and even heal and harm) don't require a divine focus at all. As long as you pick your spells carefully, you don't need a divine focus at all, nor a spell component pouch.