Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arn 08-16-06, 01:34 PM	So, a friend of mine is going to run an evil campaign (with all evil alligned PCs) and I'm going to play in it. I was in the process of rolling a character and coming up with backstory and motives and got to thinking... why would a character be evil? I mean, nobody really thinks that he or she is evil. They might have motives or tactics that the popular canon might consider evil, but in their minds they're doing good. Take Magneto from the X-Men. He beleives that normal humans will try to genocide all superhumans (having lived through the holocost and seen it in action), and he's taking a pre-emptive tactic. In his mind, his motives are good. But society sees his actions as evil. So I guess my big question is- how do you role play in an evil game? Does "evil" in D&D qualify as just killing babies for no good reason, or could it be doing something in an "evil" manner with positive motives (or does that fall more to the chaotic side?)? Help on this matter would be greatly appriciated.
Solik 08-16-06, 02:01 PM	In a world where detecting alignment is so easy, many evil people definitely know that they're evil. They just don't care. The type of character you're talking about -- the misguided individual who thinks what he or she is doing is really "Good" in the cosmic sense -- cannot exist in most D&D worlds without being insane or without actually having ever been exposed to alignment detection magic. So, you need other reasons to be classified as evil. If you really wanted to go with the "misguided" route, the best you can probably hope for is "I might be damning myself, but that's okay because..." Then there's the selfish type who don't care a whit about cosmic good and evil. Then there's the devotees of evil divinities. There's those who embrace evil because of its promises (vengeance, power, wealth, pleasure). There's those who "would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven." Then there's all the "magical" reasons for being evil -- hit with a Helm of Opposite Alignment, born into an [Evil] race, Mindrape, etc.
Millennium 08-16-06, 02:12 PM	In D&D, "Good" and "Evil" aren't so much about your goals as they are about what you're willing to do to achieve those goals. To use your X-Men example, you can make many compelling arguments for painting Magneto as a basically heroic character. The fact remains, however, that he is willing to commit one genocide in order to prevent another, and this is what makes him Evil in D&D terms. To use another example, we could consider Organization XIII from Kingdom Hearts II. For those of you unfamiliar with the series, the Organization is a group of survivors of a process which has basically deprived them of their souls (this isn't an exact match, but it's close enough for our purposes). Their ultimate goal is just to get their souls back, which is certainly not a goal most would call Evil. To do it, however, their plan is to collect the souls of thousands of people through the same process they were put through, disrupt the cycle of death and rebirth by using these souls to make a copy of the source (and final destination) of souls in their cosmology, and remake the cosmos in their own image. This, we once again see a group that could only be called Evil, even though their ultimate goal is not evil and might even be called good. The point is that being Evil doesn't mean you're stupid, and it doesn't even mean you're particularly malevolent. It just means that for whatever reason, you're willing to do pretty much anything to pretty much anyone to get what you want, whatever that might be.
NinjaE 08-16-06, 02:28 PM	Actually, most people in a DnD world wouldn't consider themselves evil. After all, while the energies that clerics call evil are proven to exist within them, that doesn't mean he doesn't just consider the clerics (and the rest of society) too stupid to realise that it's simply a pragmatic view of things. After all, in abyssal, "evil" bears a striking resemblance to "smart".
Gworraent 08-16-06, 02:33 PM	I prefer the Magneto evil subtype as compared to the CE Troll Barbarian Ravager evil. Much more interesting. I'll play a Phantom of the Opera evil character any day over a "I kill babies for no apparent reason" evil character.
PaddyPaddyFool 08-16-06, 02:36 PM	Also, from the fantasy ethos and elsewhere, we see plenty of other typical evil characters of all kinds (fallen knights; wicked/crazed/powermad witches/wizards/sorcerors; brutal killers; sadists; the plain and simple greedy types; [insert politician here]; people who scam those who really can't afford it; traffic wardens; telemarketeers; that bloke who cut you up in traffic this morning). If none of this helps, see http:\\www.darkencomics.com for half a dozen cheerfully evil character concepts to rip off.
Stumm_Dolch 08-16-06, 02:39 PM	In a world where detecting alignment is so easy, many evil people definitely know that they're evil. They just don't care. I whole heartedly dissagree. They may know they are/will be percieved as evil but that's very different. True evil and probably the most popular form of evil is indifference. Greed and Envy (not jealosy) are also prime motivators for evil. Hell, just go through the Seven Deadly Sins and pick a couple that best describes your new character and play that way. Don't think to yourself "How can I do evil today?" Just make a plan to get what you want (if you are lawful evil) or just go do whatever you feel will bring you joy at the moment (if you are chaotic evil). Working together with a party is a GREAT way for evil to accomplish extremely ambitious things... keep that in mind when your group mates start to get selfish ((and they probably will, hard to avoid it durring an evil campaign especially))
Steelwill 08-16-06, 03:30 PM	Why play evil? Well for starters, evil can be extremely pragmatic, evil beings have a capacity to rationalize virtually any action, as long as it meets their ends. Evil always justifies the means with the ends. Unfortunately for those that believe much in "good", regrettably, evil very often succeeds at what it is doing, and is considered smart, favoring doing anything it needs to in order to succeed, over being morally uncompromising instead of successful. Magneto is a great example of Lawful Evil, not because he is completely heartless or bloodthirsty, but because he is utterly ruthless in his pursuits, and even willing, as another poster pointed out, to wage genocide of a sort more favorable to himself and other mutants, in order to prevent genocide against. From personal experience, i have noted that Lawful Evil is incredibly enjoyable to play. It makes you think, you learn to be sneaky, conniving, and ruthless. Moreso than typically playing in a "good" campaign, because your actions as a hero are more often than not viewed as favorable by the masses and therefore need not be as covert. Convincing others, through guile, charisma, trickery, deception, that your cause is just, even though it isn't is also quite enjoyable. It allows the true roleplaying of a villain. Not the easily identifyable, cartoony sort. But the kind that is truly insideous, making many allies to his cause, and subverting the norm. These villains are the sort that pit rationale against morality in a hardcore battle, forcing hard choices and difficult ethical dellimas. Think of evil in terms of the smarter/charismatic villains in real life history, Hitler, Stalin, Linen, Mussolini, etc. These can be very in depth personalities to play, and thus a deep roleplaying experience, much moreso than the "I haxxor your women and babies" evil. Although in an evil campaign the drool frothing, baby chewing psycho can be fun as well, and cathartic. My 2 cents
TarlSS 08-16-06, 03:36 PM	I know I'm a bastard. Do I care? Not really. The same is true for many career criminals, crooked business men and corrupt lawyers. Sometimes you're evil because it's good to be evil. I hate alignment threads, but there are plenty of people out there who believe they are evil and are evil and continue living their lives in decidedly dastardly ways.
Gworraent 08-16-06, 03:36 PM	According to Heroes of Horror if I detect evil on a priest of Vecna passing poison to a peon to kill the mayor, I show up as evil because evil is on my mind. If you cast detect evil on me while I'm shopping for pants nothing shows up, if I'm helping my ally or his family, I might even show up good because my current actions and intent are not evil.
Tormsskull 08-16-06, 03:38 PM	What does evil mean? That's what you need to ask your DM. If it is like wearing an inside out shirt with the word EVIL written on it, and a simple first level spell reveals that a character is evil, then there should be very few evil people in the world. I'm usually a DM, and I make the detect alignment spells much less powerful than other DMs. You have to be truly evil to be detected as evil IMO. The merchant that charges people extra for goods even in time of dire need might be evil, but he won't register as evil to a detect evil spell. A demon, an undead, or a truly damned mortal will always register as evil for those spells IMC. I'd ask your DM how evil will be in this upcoming campaign. With that information, you can tailor a character that will fit with the rest of the group and coexist with the campaign.
DarkNick 08-16-06, 04:10 PM	I always argue that in dnd you should view good and evil as a quality in someone. Someone does not decide to be evil, they just are. There is a whole range of evils. I think Tormsskull is right in that you should ask the DM. This is the way I view the evil alignments, it may not be how other people view it but it might give you some perspective: NE - selfish evil - you take what you want without care for anyone else. You don't believe in any other cause but your own needs. CE - reckless evil - power is the only thing you understand. You want power so you can weild it against everyone else. The only rule is a rule where you are tougher than anyone else. This is the sort of evil that does evil for the sake of it and because you enjoy it. LE - ordered evil - You believe in an ordered society but you see that order is there to support the powerful people at the top. You will try to get to the top by whatever it takes (without overthrowing that order or getting caught breaking the rules as this will reduce your power). The people at the top may not be the most powerful in terms of raw power, but they played the game the best.
Solik 08-16-06, 04:32 PM	I whole heartedly dissagree. They may know they are/will be percieved as evil but that's very different. Then you either do not understand the rules, or you personally choose not to apply them. Good and Evil in D&D have absolutely nothing to do with perception in any way. They are tangible forces, with visible divinities aligned to them and a myriad of magical means of detecting them. Alignment-detecting spells are first level cleric spells, and in no way shape or form do they have anything at all to do with subjective perception. You don't call stuff you like "Good" and stuff you don't like "Evil" (unless you're an ignorant peasant, which the PC in question probably isn't). True evil and probably the most popular form of evil is indifference. By RAW, indifference is most closely aligned with neutrality.
Echo_that_Pains 08-16-06, 05:06 PM	I find it easier to play an evil character in campaigns than good ones 100% of the time. Why? Because the whole concept of "evil" is basically looking out for yourself, doing what you want how you want not caring for others in the way. All you must do to roleplay this is basically imagine that you are the last person on earth and everything is "yours" and your playground. If someone would happen to pop up out of somewhere and confront you about your actions, all you would need to do is make up an excuse that would get you off the hook and that would be easily believeable. The excuse in itself can be considered an evil act. Most of the times to tell a lie is evil, especially if it is told to defend/justify your self-centered actions. All one must do to play an effective evil character is to understand the inner desires of human nature (wants/desires) and act on these to the benefit of ones self and not worrying about others.
Jayr 08-16-06, 05:55 PM	According to Heroes of Horror if I detect evil on a priest of Vecna passing poison to a peon to kill the mayor, I show up as evil because evil is on my mind. If you cast detect evil on me while I'm shopping for pants nothing shows up, if I'm helping my ally or his family, I might even show up good because my current actions and intent are not evil. Actually, the passage you quoted from is an example of detect spells function in games using alignment-free variants, and does not apply to D&D games using normal alignment. Good try, though.
Callista 08-16-06, 05:57 PM	Definitely go for "Magneto"-style evil. The baby-killing sort is just trite, stupid, and gory. Okay, so let's say your evil character knows he shows up evil on a Detect spell--so he knows he's evil; but what does he think about it? --"I might be Evil, but I'm doing these things because they're practical. It all goes towards the greater good." --"I don't care if I'm Evil. I do what will bring me the greatest benefit." --"I only hurt people who deserve it. If that's evil, then evil isn't so bad, is it?" --"Who says Evil isn't the right way to go? It's all a conspiracy by the Good gods to keep their own power." --"I can't help it. My daddy beat me when I was little." (or some other excuse) --"Evil is the easiest way to power. So I want to be powerful. So what?" --"I have to get [addictive substance] somehow. I can't help doing the things I do; it's the [addictive substance]." --"I have demon/devil/evil-dragon heritage. I can't help my bloodline." There's some ideas for you, and a tip: If your character ever kicks a puppy just for the heck of it, it's time to retire him and get him a job as a Cliched Minion of a BBEG. :)
Kradlo 08-16-06, 06:13 PM	So, a friend of mine is going to run an evil campaign (with all evil alligned PCs) and I'm going to play in it. I was in the process of rolling a character and coming up with backstory and motives and got to thinking... why would a character be evil? I mean, nobody really thinks that he or she is evil. They might have motives or tactics that the popular canon might consider evil, but in their minds they're doing good. Take Magneto from the X-Men. He beleives that normal humans will try to genocide all superhumans (having lived through the holocost and seen it in action), and he's taking a pre-emptive tactic. In his mind, his motives are good. But society sees his actions as evil. So I guess my big question is- how do you role play in an evil game? Does "evil" in D&D qualify as just killing babies for no good reason, or could it be doing something in an "evil" manner with positive motives (or does that fall more to the chaotic side?)? Help on this matter would be greatly appriciated. I've been in a number of evil campaigns and games. A lot depends on the players. Evil has many faces, and comes in many forms. Many evil games eventually devolve into PCs killing each other to grab the treasure. "You've got stuff I want, so I'll kill you when your back is turned." That's a common ending, particularly among younger players. But evil can work together, provided that they have common goals and a common threat. If they need each other to survive, they won't be so quick to turn on each other. Evil can also be the antihero, like Elric of Melnibone or Kane the mystic swordsman. One of my favorite characters is a cleric of Loviatar, a lawful evil sadomasochist that sees herself as an evil that opposes other evil. "My purpose is to punish the guilty, and everyone is guilty of something." With a bit of maturity, you can play an evil campaign and enjoy it. It's an interesting break from being the hero, but it may make you appreciate heroes all the more.
aotrscommander 08-16-06, 06:49 PM	Personally, prefer a more in-your-face, manical-laughing, world-conquering, monologing, evil that is evil because it's fun to be evil! But that's just me. Check with your DM first; find out what exactly he intends his evil game to be like, I.e. whether it will be you working for the great BBEG (or becomeing one), or whether you're just evil 'thugs' as it were working off your own bat. I would suggest you veer away too much from loner or chaotic types; that's often bad enough in a regular group, and can be the kiss of death to an Evil party; even with a good roleplayer (I speak from personal experience!) When playing an evil party, unless it is the group (and DM's) intention for it to devolve into PvP, then you need to, as a player, remember that you should try to ensure your characters get along for the sake of party unity. For example, I run for an Imperial TIE Fighter squadron, for example, where the players all work for the Empire, and go around shooting Rebels, being discrimanatory to aliens, Force-Crushing people that look at them funny and generally doing all those things that Imperials do - but only to those outside the party. So whether you play a character along the lines of Magneto or Palpatine, bear in mind D&D is a really a team game, so it's best to be evil to everyone outside of the party but less so to those inside (even if that's slightly OOC, the game will be better for it). That would be my advice, having run in and played in more than one evil game.
Reversefigure4 08-16-06, 10:00 PM	Evil tends to be selfish, but that doesn't mean you don't like people. You can still have a true love, a family, a puppy you cuddle, anything of the sort. Character-wise, Evil can be just like Good in terms of having hobbies, friends, etc. Even evil people can have causes they care about (ie, you donate money to orphanages because you were raised in one as a child and want to see other orphans happy. This doesn't make you good, particularly if you are doing evil things to get the money). Secondly, DON'T play a Chaotic Evil psychopath who kills anyone who looks at him funny, party members included. While it's a perfectly valid evil character, it's just annoying and destroys the game.
Lafarallin 08-17-06, 12:15 AM	I really love how some people view evil. Why do people see the alignment "evil" and all of a sudden assume that the character is also a lunatic? Always assume they will attack party members whenever they have the opportunity? This is just ridiculious. I'm playing in a group where my character is evil, the rest of the party is good. So what? Is there some unwritten rule that an evil character and a good character can't become friends? Is there an unwritten rule that as an evil character I have to murder people left and right just for fun? Lets say you get hired by a rich friendly individual in a major city. He wants you to retrieve an old statue for his garden. You find out he is evil. Do you attack him? Do you kill him because he is evil? Do you refuse the quest because evil people shouldn't be able to hire services for legitimate and legal quests? This strikes me as absolutely absurd. There are many people in society that would be considered evil. You think a CEO of a company that lines his pockets while laying off people is good? How about a lawyer that knowling gets murderers and rapists off and sets them free? Is that good? The funny thing is these people often don't break laws. Therefore they could be Lawful Evil. An all good aligned party that attacked and killed evil people because they were simply evil...they would definately end up shifting alignment to evil in my opinion. That is far worse then someone who cheats at cards, steals from people, and/or kills someone only if they directly interfere with their business deals.
Lafarallin 08-17-06, 12:17 AM	Evil tends to be selfish, but that doesn't mean you don't like people. You can still have a true love, a family, a puppy you cuddle, anything of the sort. Character-wise, Evil can be just like Good in terms of having hobbies, friends, etc. Even evil people can have causes they care about (ie, you donate money to orphanages because you were raised in one as a child and want to see other orphans happy. This doesn't make you good, particularly if you are doing evil things to get the money). Secondly, DON'T play a Chaotic Evil psychopath who kills anyone who looks at him funny, party members included. While it's a perfectly valid evil character, it's just annoying and destroys the game. EXACTLY!! For a perfect example of a neutral evil character look at Tony Soprano from the Sopranos. He is a ruthless mob boss and murderer. But he has a compassionate side and feels compassion at times. He is a bad guy true and true but he donates money to church, helps people out that are less fortunate then him, but if you cross him business wise or endanger him....you're dead.
tiercel 08-17-06, 12:36 AM	The type of character you're talking about -- the misguided individual who thinks what he or she is doing is really "Good" in the cosmic sense -- cannot exist in most D&D worlds without being insane or without actually having ever been exposed to alignment detection magic.Well... don't rule out the power of rationalization. A sufficiently egotistical BBEG could genuinely believe that detection powers show only what the gods/relevant agents want them to -- and that he knows better. For example: "Ha! No, you do not need to use your detection powers on me, I can already tell you what they will say. They will say that I am Evil. You think this somehow reflects a tarnish on my very soul, but I will tell you what it means. What it means is that you have neglected to take into account the source of your detection powers. They are granted to you by the gods, are they not? The same gods whose church's will I have defied, the same gods who are quite content with things as they are, thank you, the same gods who have colluded to maintain a state of affairs beneficial to them and with few surprises, those same gods who see the great potential for change and improvement that I bring and fear it. Yea, even your god, who though he purports to stand for freedom, is part of a greater pantheon, a greater compact, not to upset the shape of society -- too much. Is it then any surprise that your gods, who feel that their self-serving design is threatened by my vision, should tell you that I am Evil, that I am to be struck down? What then, is this 'Evil' -- is it anything more than 'unliked by the gods'? If your sword strikes truer or your defenses help ward me away, is it because there is something wrong with me -- or simply that the gods have decided that my vision is inconvenient? Now, you may decide the distinction does not matter, that if it is your god declares me an enemy, I am to be opposed and attacked regardless of your god's motivations. If that is how you feel you must be, then so be it -- but do not fool yourself. You do not attack me because of any inherent flaw in my nature, any metaphysical taint upon my soul, any ill intent of my actions, but simply because you are told to. You make yourself nothing but a willing, mindless pawn of a distant agent whose motivations you do not even comprehend. Will you not attend to my vision of the future? Will you not instead hear me out -- or are you so far gone that you have given up all semblance of reason and judgment?" Obviously this is the sort of rationalization a BBEG would spout for a "join me"-type monologue to the PCs, but the power of rationalization is that the more a BBEG thinks on and fine-tunes it, the more he may come to believe in it himself, to the point that he may fully believe what he is saying, not merely using it to try and throw these would-be do-gooders off-balance. [Edit to add:] Note that I am not disputing here the absolute objective morality which is the default for a D&D game -- only that it is possible, within such a system, to *believe* that such a system is an absolute but subjective-consensus one, e.g. that "Good" and "Evil" are whatever the majority of people believe they are, or that "Good" and "Evil" are whatever the gods say they are, as long as enough people believe in the gods, or whatever. These alternative explanations might be very *wrong*, but that doesn't stop someone within the game world from believing in them if he feels they are consistent with his prejudices and/or the facts he has to hand.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 08-17-06, 12:56 AM	In a world where detecting alignment is so easy, many evil people definitely know that they're evil. They just don't care. Rather, they believe that Evil is right. In DnD, "right" and "wrong" depend on one's beliefs. What may be right to a good person may be wrong to an evil person, and vice-versa. The same applies to lawful and chaotic people.
aotrscommander 08-17-06, 07:21 AM	"Ha! No, you do not need to use your detection powers on me, I can already tell you what they will say. They will say that I am Evil. You think this somehow reflects a tarnish on my very soul, but I will tell you what it means. What it means is that you have neglected to take into account the source of your detection powers. They are granted to you by the gods, are they not? The same gods whose church's will I have defied, the same gods who are quite content with things as they are, thank you, the same gods who have colluded to maintain a state of affairs beneficial to them and with few surprises, those same gods who see the great potential for change and improvement that I bring and fear it. Yea, even your god, who though he purports to stand for freedom, is part of a greater pantheon, a greater compact, not to upset the shape of society -- too much. Is it then any surprise that your gods, who feel that their self-serving design is threatened by my vision, should tell you that I am Evil, that I am to be struck down? What then, is this 'Evil' -- is it anything more than 'unliked by the gods'? If your sword strikes truer or your defenses help ward me away, is it because there is something wrong with me -- or simply that the gods have decided that my vision is inconvenient? Now, you may decide the distinction does not matter, that if it is your god declares me an enemy, I am to be opposed and attacked regardless of your god's motivations. If that is how you feel you must be, then so be it -- but do not fool yourself. You do not attack me because of any inherent flaw in my nature, any metaphysical taint upon my soul, any ill intent of my actions, but simply because you are told to. You make yourself nothing but a willing, mindless pawn of a distant agent whose motivations you do not even comprehend. Will you not attend to my vision of the future? Will you not instead hear me out -- or are you so far gone that you have given up all semblance of reason and judgment?" Nice! (You should read this again while listening to Emperor Palpatine's theme to really set the tone!) As a corollary to this, in my experience anyone who claims they are 'below such petty concerns of good and evil', almost without exception are evil!
kelvinaw273 08-17-06, 07:37 AM	Yes, it is almost universal that those who we call evil either think of themselves as good, or at least justified or feel they are 'above' such concerns. Even with detect evil, they have no proof that they are evil - "that man in armour just called me evil to continue oppressing me" is a good response. "She called me evil because she is jealous" is another. "Evil" people often feel that they have been slighted by others, and they construe everything in such terms. Others are simply ruthless: they know that their actions are frowned upon, but they consider them necessary.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 08-17-06, 10:13 AM	I have been waiting for an opportunity like this. You see, I have an idea for a "sensible" CE character who thinks of himself as good-aligned. Makes for perfect RP, I think. Follow the logic: 1) When a thing is suffering immensely, it is a moral obligation to end its suffering (such as when a dog gets hit by a car and is going to die, and it is immense pain, but death is hours away). 2) It is impossible to remove suffering from the world. Everyone will suffer greatly at some point in life. Therefore: 3) It is my obligation to destroy everything to end suffering. I love this character concept. He is clearly CE, but he is also a nice guy. Insane, but caring. How can you not love it? In fact, it's the basic story behind the archnemesis of my board's namesake. If you do choose to play him (or her, doesn't matter), I'd recommend having in the background some tragic event that breaks faith in the world. This person has experienced the lows of the world, and doesn't feel anyone else should go through the same. The task of ending suffering is the only thing that keeps him/her from being depressed to the point of suicide. Paladin of Slaughter seems like a good class. On the other hand, you may want to opt for a magic user (Warmage). If this person wants to end suffering, he probably would prefer to avoid causing the pain felt in melee. Magic kills fast, so it's probably less painful. The character may even seek to make a pact to expidate the goal, in which case Warlock is a sensible class. In fact, my inspiration I'm thinking would translate into a gestalt Warlock/Paladin of Slaughter. But choose whatever you want. Just keep in mind the nice guy evildoers. Basic response to being accused of being evil? "Evil? I am trying to end suffering. Is it not our moral obligation to do so? And yet you oppose me. Who here ignores morals? Who here is evil?"
aotrscommander 08-17-06, 10:32 AM	[INSERT ANGELIC, THANK YOU GOD! MUSIC] I have been waiting for an opportunity like this. You see, I have an idea for a "sensible" CE character who thinks of himself as good-aligned. Makes for perfect RP, I think. Follow the logic: 1) When a thing is suffering immensely, it is a moral obligation to end its suffering (such as when a dog gets hit by a car and is going to die, and it is immense pain, but death is hours away). 2) It is impossible to remove suffering from the world. Everyone will suffer greatly at some point in life. Therefore: 3) It is my obligation to destroy everything to end suffering. I love this character concept. He is clearly CE, but he is also a nice guy. Insane, but caring. How can you not love it? Be very, very careful here. Your line of rational is coming very close to the Chatoic Stupid region. CE characters have a tendancy to transmute to Chaotic Stupid even under the control of a good roleplayer who's trying not to (I did it myself; as soon as I realised I was doing it, I ditched the character); the line is so easily crossed. CE is not a good alignment for party unity; make sure you know what type of evil campaign your DM is running before you do this and that is would be acceptable. Personally, when running an evil campaign, I flat-out forbid CE for this reason. NE and LE are 'safer' for the sake of the game. If you do go ahead, remember that it is especially important to bear in mind that your character's roleplaying should not be at the expense of the enjoyment of rest of the group (DM included). I say this not in critism, but in warning, having seen what can happen.
Rahlious 08-17-06, 11:17 AM	I tend, maybe incorrectly, to get caught up in the difference between creatures that are evil by nature (demons, devils, etc) and creatures that can be good, evil or neutral (humanoids, etc).
PhaedrusXY 08-17-06, 01:58 PM	I have been waiting for an opportunity like this. You see, I have an idea for a "sensible" CE character who thinks of himself as good-aligned. Makes for perfect RP, I think. Follow the logic:It could even be alot more subdued than the CE warlord type. Go watch the movie "The Minus Man". I think he's a good example of this. I don't know if he ever rationalizes it as much as you did, but he acts on some "sympathy" similiar to what you're describing. I really like tiercel's little monologue, also. Well done sir. :)
tiercel 08-17-06, 09:34 PM	Heh... glad folks liked the monologue. In my mind, monologues like that are one of the highlights of being able to play an Evil character, whether as a player with an Evil PC in an Evil campaign, or as a DM giving voice to a BBEG. First of all, it always gives a would-be do-gooder reason for pause -- if he believes in being rational or trying to understand and "save" a villain, you've hooked him, and probably thrown him off-balance, made him unready to strike and maybe even off-guard. If you are lucky or particularly skilled, you may even sway him, and there is little sweeter to a villain than causing a hero to fall into your own beliefs and into your service. Also, when you are talking about Disposable Minions of Evil and Lieutenants of Evil, it can be OK to have them be Evil in a very simple sense -- they are just Evil just because they like hurting things or they follow a Dark God/Power or they have an Evil nature or had an Evil childhood or just because, period. For main characters, though, making them memorable includes a plausible-sounding rationalization -- Evil that springs from a sound-seeming chain of events and/or reasoning can be all the more horrifying because it is so very human (humanoid, whatever). Your average hero can't relate so much to a being of pure Evil like a demon, and will simply seek to slay it -- but confronting him with a villain who is not so very different from him, whose Evil yet plausible-seeming motivations force him to confront his own inner demons, may give him pause.... "I am but a shadowy reflection of you. It would take only a nudge to make you like me. To push you out of the light." -- Rene Belloq
aotrscommander 08-18-06, 04:30 PM	Heh... glad folks liked the monologue. In my mind, monologues like that are one of the highlights of being able to play an Evil character, whether as a player with an Evil PC in an Evil campaign, or as a DM giving voice to a BBEG. First of all, it always gives a would-be do-gooder reason for pause -- if he believes in being rational or trying to understand and "save" a villain, you've hooked him, and probably thrown him off-balance, made him unready to strike and maybe even off-guard. If you are lucky or particularly skilled, you may even sway him, and there is little sweeter to a villain than causing a hero to fall into your own beliefs and into your service. Mainly, though, it's just cool. And theraputic. Nothing more relaxing that a long-winded evil speech and some maniacal laughter. Plus it really makes the player's/DM's do-gooders want to fight just so they can SHUT THE BBEG UP*. BBEGs always get the best lines. *Warning: Do not match wits with adolescent heroes (especially females and/or those from modern eras) they have no idea how It Should Be Done and tend to interupt your monologes with rude and often hurtful sarcasm and comments on your personal grooming.
Stormbrand 08-25-06, 02:18 PM	Evil characters are like evil people in real-life: they feel the world owes them, and everything is always someone elses fault. When they treat someone badly, 'they deserved it.' When they steal, 'that was rightfully mine/I should have had it.' Evil people blame others for their own decisions. Someone said evil people often feel slighted by others, very true. They usually judge morality by whatever suits them. They believe upsetting them is more serious than anyone else in the world. A good person is willing to accept that what they want is not always right, a bad person can't accept that some things are more important then what they want.
Dolomite 08-25-06, 06:42 PM	Heh... glad folks liked the monologue. In my mind, monologues like that are one of the highlights of being able to play an Evil character, whether as a player with an Evil PC in an Evil campaign, or as a DM giving voice to a BBEG. First of all, it always gives a would-be do-gooder reason for pause -- if he believes in being rational or trying to understand and "save" a villain, you've hooked him, and probably thrown him off-balance, made him unready to strike and maybe even off-guard. If you are lucky or particularly skilled, you may even sway him, and there is little sweeter to a villain than causing a hero to fall into your own beliefs and into your service. Also, when you are talking about Disposable Minions of Evil and Lieutenants of Evil, it can be OK to have them be Evil in a very simple sense -- they are just Evil just because they like hurting things or they follow a Dark God/Power or they have an Evil nature or had an Evil childhood or just because, period. For main characters, though, making them memorable includes a plausible-sounding rationalization -- Evil that springs from a sound-seeming chain of events and/or reasoning can be all the more horrifying because it is so very human (humanoid, whatever). Your average hero can't relate so much to a being of pure Evil like a demon, and will simply seek to slay it -- but confronting him with a villain who is not so very different from him, whose Evil yet plausible-seeming motivations force him to confront his own inner demons, may give him pause.... "I am but a shadowy reflection of you. It would take only a nudge to make you like me. To push you out of the light." -- Rene Belloq Actually you are a good player indeed, having met and been forced to deal with a person who not only walked the walked, but talked the talk well. Usually most people who play evil just screw it up badly not only with the "Just being evil for the heck of it", also with that "Good is stupid and soft". The best evil PC's I have seen always know that they should never underestimate anybody, especially Good since a Good character can fall off the wagon at the wrong time....like when they are trying to beat you. The evil player justified being around a group of good heroes because of this" I know how bad evil can be and how destructive it can become with all of that lack of restraint. Why would I want to deal with that!?! There is only enough room in this group for one evil being and that is me :D !!!" This statement was made just before he framed another PC who was trying to be evil. He always worked with the group cause he could relax and know without a doubt that they would work and protect him and not kill him.
Splendide 08-25-06, 07:30 PM	I've got a Lawful Evil warforged. He's not insane. He sponsors bards and other artists. He helps build sets and props for plays. He has no prejudices about who he works with, and is very open-minded. If you need something packed, he can do it with precision. If something is a threat, he deals with the threat. Yes, ok, he did chop up those corpses so he could send them home from the front more efficiently. Yes, he has killed people who are technically children in the past who have thrown things at him. That was self-defence. Yes, he does seem to work with thieves, thugs and murderers quite often. OK, so he did put that kid in a sack when he took the job to return him to his parents. The kid got fed and didn't suffer any lingering injuries!
Whisper_Swiftblade 08-25-06, 09:44 PM	the thoughts of an evil mind I don't care about strangers, why should I? I would rather look out for myself by amassing power and ritches because that's what is right for me and in this world I am what truly matters. I might have freinds who I would defend, but not because seeing them hurt bothers me, it is because if they die I will have one less freind and for me that is bad so I look out for my self by looking out for them. I don't have problems killing people who get in my way, it is not that I nessesarly enjoy killing, it is only that it is the nateral responce to kill, if you fight a lion will it show mercy after defeating you? NO. If you take meat from a hungry dog will it deside to be kind and not bite you? NO. If you stand in the way of my plans will I kill you? YES. Does that mean that when I am walking down the street and you bump into me that I will harm you? Probally not, that is unless I think you just tried to pick my pocket, in which case I will cut off a few of your fingers to make shore you remember to watch who you rob. People brand my kind as evil and say that because I slay others and try to improve my standing that I am evil, I say that I am practical, let delutions of kindness and nobility rule those fools who call themselves good, I prefer to know the truth of the world.
GnomeMade 08-25-06, 11:18 PM	You want to think evil? Ok. Let's see the world a little differently: It is a dangerous world. The good gods pretend they are winning this war, but you know better. They just do that to get their followers to do stupid things so they die. Gods collect followers, and even though people claim that good gods have beautiful realms of peace and love, it sounds...well, like a trap for suckers. It's probably just another trick for the unwary. And if it's real, who wants to be sitting around in a feild for eternity anyway? As for real life, you've seen far more evil in the world than good in it. You've also witnessed the good die horrible deaths while the evil prosper. Of the two, prospering looks a lot less painful. Sure that crazed man in the shiny metal armor claims he can detect your evil, as if it were some sort of smell, and the fact that he is waving the sword at you only reminds you that he, like everyone else in the world, is perfectly willing to kill you without batting an eyelash. They think you are weak, and therefore they can kill you under whatever pretext they want. Of course, half the fun of this is that they are attacking and that gives you the right to prove that you are the more powerful. (CE) After all, it's self defence. (LE) And if you are evil, than there is nothing you can do about it. You have to do what you do, it's all that keeps you alive. If you were good, you would be as dead as that crazy paladin. He should have realized that all that metal made him vulnerable to electrical attacks. Anyone knows that. Or he should have attacked without warning, rather than ranting at you, thinking you are going to stand still and let him 'smite' you. If he was smart, you wouldn't have had time to kill him before he killed you. Evil as a point of view needs to be grounded. Your characters have to at least half way believe it. Their actions will follow naturally. You should be thinking things like 'if I had done that, my mother/father/teacher/sister/master would have 'insert overkill disciplinary action' me. Why are they getting away with it?' Evil is a variety, anything from the impish, "Gosh, it feels good to kill these people because I finally can," to the serious, 'I'm doing this for the good of humanity! We'll never survive if we teach our children that it is ok to run giggling through the woods. There are orcs and more horrible foes there. I'll show parents that if they care about their children, they won't send them toddling into certain death. After what happens to these, no one will ever be foolish enough to leave their children around like litter again. If their parents think they are important, they should be protected, and if not, then it's better to kill them now before they know how disposable the world believes they are.' But I don't think it is so off the mark for evil people to work together. After all, there is safety in numbers, and the less reckless the numbers better. You don't want to work around someone who sticks his finger in the air and declares to the enemy that he will 'strike a blow for goodness', rather than being sensible and just stabbing the guy. You don't want anyone around you that's willing to kill 'for the greater good'. If you're going to kill someone, it should be for some measurable gain. At least get some money out of it. Or have the balls to admit that you are killing someone because you want to, don't hide behind 'the greater side of justice...bleh bleh, bleh.' Anyway, that's a pretty evil viewpoint, and I can tell you that it makes a very...stress free evil character. Of course, your boss will kill you if you don't get him results, so remember to prove you are worth your oxygen today. With any luck at all, your group will florish and provide you with the means needed to survive a bit longer. :D Also remember that people only pretend to be good. Deep down, they are all just as bad, but they are hiding behind the word of good. They pretend that because they love puppies and let their children run free, ie, unsupervised through fields of flowers, and make pies that they have more of a right to life than you do. You, who has to work so hard to just survive. I know there is more to it than that, but if a person puts on a helmet of opposite alignment, they shouldn't suddenly declare to themselves 'I am evil! YAY!' or 'I am good! YAY' They should be re-evaluating their point of view, they should be 'finally seeing the world for what it is' or, 'seeing the light!'. Evil may be shown in actions, but it is also a point of view.
countbubba 08-26-06, 12:12 AM	Rather, they believe that Evil is right. In DnD, "right" and "wrong" depend on one's beliefs. What may be right to a good person may be wrong to an evil person, and vice-versa. The same applies to lawful and chaotic people. This is very true. Evil people probably don't see themselves as "good", but they almost certainly will see themselves as right. This is an important distinction to make. Many people are neutral with regards to good and evil, but still see themselves as right. For example, someone who believes that balance is sacred, and that neither good nor evil should be allowed too much power. Clearly not good, definitely not evil, but still believes he or she is right.
archerpwr 08-26-06, 08:09 PM	Evil is not about doing bad things or hurting people. It is about doing the practical things. For instance some crazy guy in shiny armor says he will smite you. He also has a shiny sword that would pawn well for a new wand. While he spends 18 seconds just staring at you waiting for his god's permission to kill you. you sensibly spend 3 seconds casting magic missle into his exposed chest. Now you have your life, some shiny new loot, and one less person in your way to the power to reshape the world in your own image. Good is simply being controlled by someone else instead of taking the power for yourself and changing the world.
Taninger 08-26-06, 09:34 PM	I've played an Evil game a time or two myself... They're easy to get lost in, but with a solid character, you can really go far... I've found that, if you're not sure how to be Evil, LE is good, because it's a bit more conductive to group work. That said, NE and CE can work in a group. My favorite example of Evil, from Rurouni Kenshin: Shishio Makoto - The swordsman, hungry for power, that plans a full-scale rebellion to install a government in Japan of the Strong, believing in the "Law of Nature", that the "Strong live and the weak die." or that "The weak are the meat of the strong." He still worked in a group, though he did lead it. He had "friends" of a sort, and was more than willing to work in a group... but would sacrifice anything to reach his ultimate goal. Also, just as a note... as much as the RaW say it is, Evil isn't destructive to everything. There are tribes of Orcs that can work in unison, and Goblins are famous for this (at least, in my group). Evil can still forge friendships, they can still have allies and loved ones, and things that they refuse to do. It's all dependant on the character in question. P.S. I saw a post above just now, about "Good" and "Right". Very few people do the "wrong" thing in their minds, or if they do, they do their damndest to rationalize it. The nazis considered themselves "right", but I don't think they'd be considered "good". Okay, that wasn't the best of examples, as they DID think they were, or so we're told... umm... Well, to take a previous example... someone sacrificing themselves to change the world, damning their soul to save all the innocent people by killing all the guilty ones, for instance, may not think of themselves as "good". As I've written it, in fact, they know that they are not, but they *do*, or would, think of themselves as being "right".
robertliguori 08-26-06, 10:25 PM	I've thrown a character at my players who used a variant of tiercel's quite extraordinary monologue. He went one step above that, however, claiming that the cosmic forces of Good and Evil were just planar forces like Water or Shadow, and should have exactly as much effect on your behavior. He also was fiercely devoted to helping the people of his kingdom, to the point of installing a series of undead-powered carts and building perfectly-straight roads for them to traverse at high speed. He almost-entirely elimated famine, enabled the kingdom's armies to mobilize at amazing speed, and all-in-all used his powers to help, while snidely pointing out the long-term effects of his work in contrast to yet-another-slain-monster that the party had accomplished in the same period of time. A similar monologue: "Tell me, sir paladin, are you aware that a simple fourth-order spell exists, that would invert your supposed moral sense? Did you know that not just I, but the large majority of my apprentices are perfectly capable of rendering you into a tool for those powers that you claim to oppose with all your soul? And yet, you claim to follow this moral sense, even to the exclusion of your own reasoning. If you were to watch one of your companions walk through an illusory wall, you would certainly not believe a wall to be there, though your eyes told you so. Why, then, do you oppose me? Can you not see the hundreds of people that would have died of hunger and thirst in the drought up north, had my steeds not sent casks of water there? Do you not know of the soldiers lives that have been spared, because my undead fought in their place against the hobgoblin army? If you would judge me evil because you believed me to have caused some harm that had escaped my knowledge, speak and I will do my best to alleviate it, you have my word. But you continue to be a slave to a force that self-evidently does not have the best interests of our kingdom at hand, and continue to follow this moral sense of yours above what your own mind tells you, then look into this painting, sir paladin. You will find yourself looking back."
Issabella 08-26-06, 10:37 PM	play the evil cleric or druid, controll the access to the healing magic and force them to deal with you on your terms!
delguidance2 08-27-06, 03:05 AM	I think a good example of an evil party is the "War of the Spider Queen" series of books. There's little trust for the group of drow, however every character has a little something on every other character that keeps them from killing each other. They want eachother dead but need eachother to survive. They're also united by loyalty to a greater cause of drowdom, though they have differeing perceptions of what that means. Backstabbing happens in very very subtle ways and usually only results in an inconvienience. D&D is a game of choices. I think what characters gain from evil is balanced by what is lost in terms of having few safe havens.
delguidance2 08-27-06, 03:05 AM	Duplicat post
Dolomite 08-27-06, 03:57 AM	I've thrown a character at my players who used a variant of tiercel's quite extraordinary monologue. He went one step above that, however, claiming that the cosmic forces of Good and Evil were just planar forces like Water or Shadow, and should have exactly as much effect on your behavior. He also was fiercely devoted to helping the people of his kingdom, to the point of installing a series of undead-powered carts and building perfectly-straight roads for them to traverse at high speed. He almost-entirely elimated famine, enabled the kingdom's armies to mobilize at amazing speed, and all-in-all used his powers to help, while snidely pointing out the long-term effects of his work in contrast to yet-another-slain-monster that the party had accomplished in the same period of time. A similar monologue: "Tell me, sir paladin, are you aware that a simple fourth-order spell exists, that would invert your supposed moral sense? Did you know that not just I, but the large majority of my apprentices are perfectly capable of rendering you into a tool for those powers that you claim to oppose with all your soul? And yet, you claim to follow this moral sense, even to the exclusion of your own reasoning. If you were to watch one of your companions walk through an illusory wall, you would certainly not believe a wall to be there, though your eyes told you so. Why, then, do you oppose me? Can you not see the hundreds of people that would have died of hunger and thirst in the drought up north, had my steeds not sent casks of water there? Do you not know of the soldiers lives that have been spared, because my undead fought in their place against the hobgoblin army? If you would judge me evil because you believed me to have caused some harm that had escaped my knowledge, speak and I will do my best to alleviate it, you have my word. But you continue to be a slave to a force that self-evidently does not have the best interests of our kingdom at hand, and continue to follow this moral sense of yours above what your own mind tells you, then look into this painting, sir paladin. You will find yourself looking back." I have heard a guy pull that kind of monologue on us....it didn't help him that we had an image crystal of him violating the priestess that we was looking for. But it was entertaining to listen to him try to convince us that he really was doing the right thing, then we cut him off pointed out the evidence against him. The only thing he could say after that was "What a waste of a good speech....OK Time for you to Die." We all had a good laugh after that, our group has a Paladin that dosen't go around smiting everything with a evil aura, heck he dosen't even turn it on...unless you give him a reason and man did he have a reason with this guy.