Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tuck 01-11-06, 03:26 AM	It never amazes me just how creative my players get. One day, before my game started up, my players were playing with two of my newer book purchases; Magic of Incarnum, and The Book of Exalted Deeds (late bloomer, yes, I know). After thumbing through the book for about 5 minutes, my two min-max-masters came up with a combination that would crush the soul of any opposing character: An NG Incarnate with Vow of Poverty. Since the incarnate's soulmelds are not more of a power/spell, and not a magic item, then they're not affected by the rules of Vow of Poverty, resulting in a character who can wield a +5 Incarnum Weapon with +5 Exalted Strike...and don't even think about adding up the AC totals. It was mind boggling. I told them both to get the thoughts right out of their heads - I'm a generous DM, but I'm not masochistic. But the question is still in my head: Is it possible to create an Incarnate character, with the ability to create soulmelds, and still follow the rules of Vow of Poverty? Despite the fact that no sane DM would allow it, I want to know whether or not the rules would allow it. What do you all think?
Lenarior 01-11-06, 04:30 AM	I don't have the books in front of me (or even nearby) but I would say yes. Shockingly yes. The tought never incured to me before but I think the rules support it just fine. This might be one of the biggest misses I've ever heard of.
Archangel62 01-11-06, 04:45 AM	Well, IMO Vow of Poverty (or as some at my table call it Hoboes Rule the World) is a rather overpowered feat rig. The biggest problem with Exalted deeds is being a truly Exalted character, I've had arguments and philosophical debates in regards to good and evil bouncing around at several tables and most have agreed to put a kabash on using wither VD or ED for the reasons of not wanting another table feud. However you may have just given me the ultimate build I need as an opponent for an evil party.
DarkWarriorKarg 01-11-06, 07:56 AM	Disclaimer: I don't like VoP, not because of the power, but because I can't suspend my disbelief. It's put there to counterbalance "giving up all worldly goods" with the items you would get at later levels. At higher levels, it is actually WEAKER than corresponding items. Plus, you get fixed abilities. You can't even use a potion or a scroll unless someone hands one to you to use immediately. This being said, yes, that would work. Just because they take up item slots to use, doesn't mean that the powers are items.
Surgo 01-11-06, 08:22 AM	They'll probably end up a lot weaker immediately as mid-levels end and high-levels begin.
WayneTheGame 01-11-06, 09:03 AM	Yes, the rules allow it since you're creating the item out of Incarnum, which is almost like a spell, and not physically buying/taking something of value. It's similar to how one could create a Soulknife with VoP and not be penalized for using your Mindblade.
Radijs 01-11-06, 09:20 AM	Does the incarnum or souldmeld ability have a gold cost associated to its creation/usage? Because if the soulmelds have a value they will negate the VoP.
Tuck 01-12-06, 08:23 AM	Wow...I think my soul is burning right now. It could work...I too now have ideas of crap to throw at the players when they're being naughty... To answer your question, Radijs, no - Incarnum only costs Essentia points, which come as part of the character class. No GP involved. Purely a class ability, just like casting a spell...except levels are involved differently. I recommend MoI, by the way - great book, wonderful new rules set for players to use. Worth at least a look. Good grief...my head, it hurts.
jpat93 01-12-06, 11:03 AM	Incarnum only costs Essentia points Not to nitpick too much, but soulmelds don't even have an inherent essentia cost. I think the problem here, if there is one, is with VoP.
babysamurai 01-12-06, 12:00 PM	Yes, I love my VoP Aasimar Incarnate/Monk.
Aufenshauft 01-12-06, 12:28 PM	A thread is in the CO boards, and the common answer is yes you can, but since many of the neat effects stack and that 's all you get, you are really powerful in one area, but really don't have the power you need in others to compensate for the loss of power and flexibility that is VoP. Sure, you have a +X weapon with +X effects, can you fly? How do you heal? Etc. You become so specialized that you have to rely on others and often run into major issues as a result. Nice on paper, bad with dice.
babysamurai 01-13-06, 04:08 AM	can you fly? ...Airstep Sandals...
Yabanjin 01-14-06, 10:56 AM	It never amazes me just how creative my players get.....What do you all think?For starters, I really liked how, despite disagreeing, you appreciate your player's creativity. You might allow the combo because of that. Or you might disallow it because you suspect that they secretly read the CO boards. Or you might allow it because they secretly read the CO boards... its a vicious circle. :P Secondly, I think that allowing so called broken modalities in the game is often a matter of DM coordination. If you can manage it, great! Give it a try and adjust the CRs accordingly. Is it easy to manage? Not likely. Will the players have fun? Yup. The real question is, Will you enjoy the challenge of challenging them? I'd like to know what you finally decide, please post it!
Encard 01-14-06, 03:20 PM	It would work, yes. To be honest, I don't think it would be that overpowered - incarnum may take up item slots, but VoP still isn't quite as good as it looks at first glance. That said, they probably would end up with fairly powerful characters, and interesting ones if they actually roleplayed them well.
Carmath The Pure 01-15-06, 07:30 AM	As always, the key limiter here is VoP--there are strict rules on keeping the Vow. As a list of bonuses, VoP is uber-powerful, but being Exalted is stricter than being a paladin. As a DM I would allow this, but I'd make damn sure the PC was toeing the line constantly. It'd be a real shame for him to compromise somewhere and lose Exalted status right in the middle of the BBEG showdown, wouldn't it? :smirk:
Xaktsaroth 01-15-06, 02:39 PM	As always, the key limiter here is VoP--there are strict rules on keeping the Vow. As a list of bonuses, VoP is uber-powerful, but being Exalted is stricter than being a paladin. As a DM I would allow this, but I'd make damn sure the PC was toeing the line constantly. It'd be a real shame for him to compromise somewhere and lose Exalted status right in the middle of the BBEG showdown, wouldn't it? :smirk: VoP is a hard mantle to follow, however, good and evil in DnD isn't a grey fog filled area with arguements both ways. Good and evil are hard and fast. You can point to something and say "This is good." Most DM's ignore that, and drop their own subjective opinions about good and evil into it, and that's when playing any Paladin/Saint/Exalted characters becomes a HUGE problem. For example, a story I've seen on here more then a few times is the whole Paladin-kill-a-baby-or-the-world-is-destroyed-senario. Now, with subjective DnD, it seems simple, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, so the Paladin would slice the baby in half and be done with it. However, the BoED specifically warns against this type of behavior. It states killing an innocent for ANY reason is an evil act. SO, if you follow the non-subjective DnD rules, the Paladin must not kill the baby. This might cause the world to be destroyed, however, this is not the Paladin's fault, those responsable for the destruction are the ones to blame. However, attempting to rescue the child would be a fine and noble act. Carefully read the section in the BoED before you allow any Exalted characters and advice them to do the same. You'll save yourself many headaches later down the road. A thread is in the CO boards, and the common answer is yes you can, but since many of the neat effects stack and that 's all you get, you are really powerful in one area, but really don't have the power you need in others to compensate for the loss of power and flexibility that is VoP. Sure, you have a +X weapon with +X effects, can you fly? How do you heal? Etc. You become so specialized that you have to rely on others and often run into major issues as a result. Nice on paper, bad with dice. This is normnally true, however, I'd argue this completely. MoI allows for a flexibility that many other classes wish they could emulate. I actually made a build using MoI and VoP already: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7987008&postcount=1 The guy is a damage machine, however, he's not completely unable to deal with non-specific threats. Against flying creatures, he could bind the Frost Helm to his crown chakra to gain a range, cold based attack. If the target is a immune to cold damage, you could easily use Behir Gorget. For hidden creatures(ones that rely on concealment, incorporality or being invisible), VoP takes care of the invisiblity problem, with it's True Seeing abilitity. Incorporality can be handled with the Crystal Helm(Crown) soulbind, granting all your melee attacks the force descriptor. Concealment can be handled with the Diadem of Purelight(Crown) soulbind, negating all all concealment short of total. For healing, doesn't VoP have a form of regeneration? Also, one of the soulmelds(can't remember off hand) gives you a limited form of fast healing. There's even a soulmeld for healing other people. :P Now, I know I listed some soulbind that's aren't on the totemist's list, however, I'm merely demonstrating the options a MoI character has. Hell, with the Shape Soulmeld feat, you can pick up any soulmeld you want. Versaltility is the name of the game when your playing with MoI. :P
Zemyla 01-15-06, 05:57 PM	There's even a soulmeld for healing other people. :P You can heal yourself with it, since you only take half the damage that you heal . Bind it to your heart and go to town.