| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| DrakoShade05-16-06, 01:50 AM | The group I play with has been active for about a year and a half. We started out playing AD&D, primarily because nobody in the group had any of the 3.5 books yet... but because of my efforts, the group was able to get into the most recent rules edition. Over the period of a year, I spent a good deal of money at the local book store. I purchased the core rule-books, plus Monster Manuals 2 and 3, DMG 2, Epic Level Handbook, Complete Psionic Handbook, the Books of Exalted Deeds and Vile Darkness, Stronghold Builders' Guidebook, Tome and Blood, Song and Silence, Deities and Demigods, Manual of the Planes, and a few others that don't come to mind without actually looking at my bookshelf. Recently, my DM has "acquired" a CD with PDF files of every single book that I spent that hard-earned money on (and as many more that I hadn't yet purchased.) I've refused to even look at his disc. It makes me mad that he's not only made all my investment suddenly worthless, but done so in an obviously illegal way. I've spent hundreds of dollars, and he has twice the amount of resources without spending a dime. What's a player to do in this situation? Am I supposed to up and leave the group? Call the cops and tell them that my friend is guilty of piracy? Neither of these options is appealing... I honestly can't picture him throwing away such a useful resource no matter how high I roll on my Diplomacy check. So, how can I show my friend and DM that what he's done isn't just wrong from my own moral standpoint, but that it also shows a serious lack of respect for me (since I'm still the only one in the group who legitimately owns a 3.5 resource?) |
| Dragonsblood05-16-06, 02:25 AM | Diplomacy check failed huh? Have you tried casting atonement? :P Seriously though, your investment isn't wasted. I'd much rather have the books than a PDF. Books are easier to browse, they're easier on the eyes, and they're more convenient at the game table. Why else would I buy the core books when I can download the SRD? |
| kelvinaw27305-16-06, 04:04 AM | Don't you just hate it when that happens? Seriously, I can understand why your DM felt the need to own all the core material himself, but refering to a PDF mid-game is not practicable and hence your investment is not wasted - it's just that now your DM has the facility to look stuff up that he hasn't borrowed from you at the time. Chill. The piracy police will catch up with him in time ... until then, enjoy the game. |
| allenchan05-16-06, 04:06 AM | Would you be angry at someone because you bought a CD album you really liked, but someone else downloaded two albums of the same artist? Sounds foolish, imo. I really dont see why it would affect anyone other then the person who did/does it. You still have your books, and obviously you wouldn't have bought them unless you wanted them, so enjoy your purchase and your (legal) product, and leave it at that. |
| Witch05-16-06, 04:39 AM | I personally don't have a problem with it. I own dozens of books, but I used to have a couple of pdf's too. The problem I believe is that in this case, the DM is getting -everything- on pdf, thus removing the support for WotC, and that's bad for the game as a whole if enough people do it. Try to convince him to buy a few books, at least. And if he's your friend, you won't tell anything to the police, or similar. This is not murder. This is not assault. Many people wouldn't even consider it theft - including me. He's taking nothing away, after all. And above all, do NOT go to the police to spite him, because you payed money and he didn't. If you actually deem it "offensive" that he copies something, well, you might have a decent reason. Spite is not a decent reason. Pdfs are barely useable during a session, unless he brings a laptop. |
| King_Bulba05-16-06, 04:53 AM | I think like many others said, you need to calm down and look at the situation. During the game PDFs are not going to be helping anyone. Your books on the other hand will be and are NEEDED. Also we don't know the situation. First of all from our standpoint they could be legal PDFs. You imply they are illegal but doesnt mean they aren't legal PDFs, I know because I have some. Also from our standpoints the guy could be poor and stealing them is the only way for him to plan out things at home in an effecient manor. I am not going to shead a tear if he is stealing them though since WoTC has has screwed all of us all from time to time. Complete Psionic being my recent burn they gave me. Putting Errata on the the EPH into the limited page count of CP is MESSED up, let alone the poor editing and ALL the other defeciencies that the book has. (Sorry like I said I was burned a little.) If the dude was wealthy and stealing just because he can then I can understand the rub. WoTC needs money to continue making products and he is intentially trying to screw WoTC. Don't be a dick about it can report him but if it does REALLY bother you then leaving might be apporiate. Like in DnD if your lawful and a party memeber is chaotic and you catch him stealing you dont turn him over, hopefully your bond will not allow it as friends. You dont condone it either so you remove him or you from the group. Since he is the DM then I dont see him leaving, but you can leave or talk to your group to abandon him and someone else DM... Personally I think WoTC makes enough money and if he isnt going to support them then dont worry about it. He can not play without your books so you are still of value even though he has them. If it really matters then leave. Well my two coppers anyways. |
| J.Augustus Rose II05-16-06, 05:01 AM | Would it be better if he went out and bought copies of all the books you already bought? Would that make your purchases worthless too? To me it sounds like you're more jealous than anything. :rolleyes: |
| DrakoShade05-16-06, 05:11 AM | You guys do have a point... it's a rub for a few reasons: a) He makes thrice the money I do. b) Each of the others in the group has at least my income. c) NONE of them have bought a single book. For a while, my books stayed in a suitcase at the DM's house, because we were running seperate games for nights when one of us couldn't show (and I didn't want the guys unable to play because I was working on their night off.) My Monster Manual "got lost" while under the DM's care. Since I made the first post, he came to me with a shiny new one-- the first book he's payed for, as a replacement for the one I haven't seen in two months. As for the issue about getting mad at somebody for downloading two albums when I bothered to pay-- I would be. Let's just say that piracy of copyrighted works is one of my major pet peeves. To clarify the situation: the collection of PDFs are pirated, and have now been copied and distributed to every other member of our group (I refused the copy he made for me.) Piracy seems to be the one "blind spot" that the group has toward the law. Otherwise, they're as lawful as I am. Even the ex-drug-dealer who now earns his living as a security guard. I guess this one thing isn't such a big problem in itself-- just another symptom of what I feel is a major problem in our society. |
| Witch05-16-06, 05:14 AM | They might deem the piracy law unjust. I know I do. It's a principle solely based on greed and profit, without any actual reason to it. Copying something is just that - copying. You don't steal anything. |
| DracoPhoenix05-16-06, 08:31 AM | Well, with the advent of this CD, you won't have to worry about people borrowing your books, so that's a plus. I tend to take the approach "this is how I live my life, how others live theirs is their problem" so the fact that they choose to commit a crime (not theft - copyright infringement (LG irl, it sucks)) is their decision, doesn't mean you must automatically break it and use the material. Don't mean you should run to the law either. It's not like he's selling it on the street corner. funny story: CDs have a few mil of durable plastic on the under side to protect the data layer from scratches. But they have next to nothing to stop a ball point pen from the label side from writing on it & destroying the data as a result... Just saying. (I think I have a streak of CG...) |
| Dragonsblood05-16-06, 01:35 PM | Don't destroy their CDs. They'll know you did it, they'll kick you from the group, and they'll just make new CDs because I'm sure your DM has a copy saved on his computer. |
| Gedrin05-16-06, 02:06 PM | I'd support you if you chose to leave your group over the issue. If everyone had done as your group for their PHB...we'd never have seen another D&D book out of WotC. Each book that WotC produces is an investment of time, manpower, and money...even before it's printed. As a digital document it represents hundreds of man hours in writing, testing, art and formatting. WotC is only willing to risk those resources under the condition that there is probable monetary reward. Your groupmates simply want other people to do the hard work of writing, playtesting, editing, composing art, marketing, preparing a book for publication, and making the first print run without paying those people for that work. |
| kelvinaw27305-16-06, 02:12 PM | Well aside from a certain copyright blindspot they seem a decent enough bunch, and it cannot hurt for everyone to have all the information at their fingertips. If I were you I would encourage them to actually buy the books - mention things like: "if we had another players handbook at this session both us and the DM could be looking up things and saving time in the fight scene." Eventually, somebody will go out and buy one ... and once WotC have all the sales they would have made otherwise, the pirate PDFs aren't hurting anyone (I hope ... looks up worriedly at the WotC website logo). |
| InterSilva05-16-06, 02:30 PM | What in the %$#@! is wrong with you guys!? You support him leaving!? The guy replaced a book he lost! That's a $30 replacement out of his own pocket, not to mention the OP got a brand new one! His group hasn't done anything mean or malicious aside from a minor piracy! I have a ton of books on PDF because I simply cannot afford to pay for all the books I'd like to have. I also own a healthy collection of books (PHB, MMI, DMG, DMGII) and the PHB and DMG are both leatherbound $75 special edition books. You can encourage your group to at least buy themselves a PHB, and encourage the DM to get all three core books, but for goodness' sake, even if they don't get the books, don't leave the group! |
| Gedrin05-16-06, 02:34 PM | I have a ton of books on PDF because I simply cannot afford to pay for all the books I'd like to have. I also own a healthy collection of books (PHB, MMI, DMG, DMGII) and the PHB and DMG are both leatherbound $75 special edition books. :thinks: |
| Felyndaer05-16-06, 02:48 PM | I understand how you feel, I buy practically every darn book my group has. Also pretty recently one of my members got pretty much the same thing, a big pile of PDFs. I've been trying to get the other members to invest a bit more, and so far it looks like all of them severely prefer the actualy hardback to a picture on a computer. Just have a talk with them all, and if they're all douches then address them as such. |
| Dragonsblood05-16-06, 02:49 PM | I'd support you if you chose to leave your group over the issue. If everyone had done as your group for their PHB...we'd never have seen another D&D book out of WotC. Each book that WotC produces is an investment of time, manpower, and money...even before it's printed. As a digital document it represents hundreds of man hours in writing, testing, art and formatting. WotC is only willing to risk those resources under the condition that there is probable monetary reward. Your groupmates simply want other people to do the hard work of writing, playtesting, editing, composing art, marketing, preparing a book for publication, and making the first print run without paying those people for that work. LOL it HAS been done for the PHB. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 |
| 00_Whupass05-16-06, 02:58 PM | The group I play with has been active for about a year and a half. We started out playing AD&D, primarily because nobody in the group had any of the 3.5 books yet... but because of my efforts, the group was able to get into the most recent rules edition. Over the period of a year, I spent a good deal of money at the local book store. I purchased the core rule-books, plus Monster Manuals 2 and 3, DMG 2, Epic Level Handbook, Complete Psionic Handbook, the Books of Exalted Deeds and Vile Darkness, Stronghold Builders' Guidebook, Tome and Blood, Song and Silence, Deities and Demigods, Manual of the Planes, and a few others that don't come to mind without actually looking at my bookshelf. Recently, my DM has "acquired" a CD with PDF files of every single book that I spent that hard-earned money on (and as many more that I hadn't yet purchased.) I've refused to even look at his disc. It makes me mad that he's not only made all my investment suddenly worthless, but done so in an obviously illegal way. I've spent hundreds of dollars, and he has twice the amount of resources without spending a dime. What's a player to do in this situation? Am I supposed to up and leave the group? Call the cops and tell them that my friend is guilty of piracy? Neither of these options is appealing... I honestly can't picture him throwing away such a useful resource no matter how high I roll on my Diplomacy check. So, how can I show my friend and DM that what he's done isn't just wrong from my own moral standpoint, but that it also shows a serious lack of respect for me (since I'm still the only one in the group who legitimately owns a 3.5 resource?) Well telling the police won't really do anything, Intellectual Property violations are Torts, not Crimes. If you really wish to contact an authority the proper contact would be someone in the legal departments of WotC or Hasbro, who would then consider filing a civil complaint. In all likelihood they would not, since the opportunity cost of prosecution mitigates the eventual outcome. If your friend begins mass producing and distributing that CD to the magnitude of a few hundred copies, the whole ball game changes and prosecution becomes far more likely. That said, my advice is this: The only two things in the entirety of the universe that you can control are your own actions and reactions. You've chosen to purchase these books, patronizing a company who you support, and you've reacted to your friends violation of anothers sovreign property by expressing your displeasure. Sounds to me as though you've done all you can. As to the issue of disrespect, I don't see it. It was your choice to purchase the books, you did so of your own volition and with no expectation of repayment. The fact that your friend and DM has aquirred the same materials unlawfully, has no bearing on your decision to purchase them and is not in and of itself a disrespect. If your friend has knowingly inflamed your sense of righteousness, that may be a disrespect, but simply choosing to violate the property of WotC is a disrespect to WotC, not to you. Of course your feelings are your own and you are free to feel however you wish, I just don't see it. As I said all you can control are your own actions therefore you have to choose how you will respond. Will you contact the rightful owners of the intellectual property? Will you be able to play with these people in the future, if this behavior continues? Will you partake of thier unlawfully aquired knowledge? Decide your own comfort level, have boundries and always treat others with respect and I'm sure you'll do fine. Disclaimer- I am not a Lawyer and have no legal education beyond the 10 credits required for my undergradute business degree, and even such knowledge may be out of date. |
| Gedrin05-16-06, 02:59 PM | If you can't tell the difference between the SRD and PHB I can't help you. |
| Witch05-16-06, 03:08 PM | It's not very hard to "aquire pdfs". Any p2p program will get them for you. The fact is that they're just not useful at the gaming table, and don't directly support WotC. However, I've seen several that list "If you enjoyed this product, please support WotC and buy it". This is an opinion I share. I think we have the right to know what's in a book, and what quality it has before we buy it. I don't believe in "owning" text. I do believe in supporting developpers. Personally, I don't mind if someone downloads a book that he'll use 1 feat out of, for example. I would however mind if that player intends to use the entire book extensively, or downloads every book, and buys nothing. That said, I'd still talk to them, and not report them. |
| mlund05-16-06, 03:12 PM | Piracy in this situation is just a lot of scummy leeching. If everyone behaved the way that they did there wouldn't be any comerically available D&D products on the market. Kick them to the curb and don't fall for any of their nonsensical BS about how they are somehow entitled to have the books without paying for them. - Marty Lund |
| Need_A_Life05-16-06, 03:47 PM | I think you've done enough. You've expressed that you'll have nothing to do with piracy and that's that. Or, laugh at them. While they're holding [pg dn] down, you are flipping through the book faster and without getting your eyes messed up. Now, I am not claiming I haven't had my brushes with piracy, but I have a personal rule about those sorts of things. I try them out for a little while, if it catches my interest I buy it at the earliest opportunity. If not, they go into the garbage and are never seen by me again. Also, do you realize how much easier it is to transport .pdf-documents compared to +200page books? We use it in our group, but our collective libary of D&D books is already extensive so it's only natural that we don't bring all of them to the table. I own the Expanded Psionics Handbook, as does another member of the group, and I don't really feel like bringing my (undamaged) copy to the table, so I leave it on the shelf and bring my laptop EDIT: Again, I own every book. Everyone should try to follow the same example. |
| Thiez05-16-06, 03:50 PM | lol, I have, in PDF: Libris Mortis Complete Divine Complete Arcane Stormwrack Fiend Folio Manual of the Planes Monster Manual 3.5 Player Handbook Dungeon Master Guide Complete Adventurer Book Of Vile Darkness Races of the Wild And probably some more on a CD that I haven't looked into yet. Thing is, the only thing me and my party have ever used from all of those books is the Warmage. I just like to read them books, and yes, should be ever get to use them a lot, I'll probably buy the book, because PDFs suck when you're in a game. It's actually a good thing to try them out like that. After seeing how bad warmages suck (dont' read this, danta! :P), I dont' think I'll ever use Complete Arcane. Stormwrack I have because we had this PC who wanted to be a pirate. We died before we got to that, and I don't like the book anyway. Complete Divine I had to read because I spam clerics. Go team clerics! But I've been DM'ing, so I've never used any of it. Most of the other books I haven't even read yet :) |
| Gondor05-16-06, 05:05 PM | So... your DM illegally obtained copies of books you have. This makes you angry because your "investment" is now "worthless"? On what plane does that follow? If you invested in three hundred shares of some company's IPO, and the company crashed, would you whine about someone else having "ruined your investment?" This is absurd. You have no right whatsoever to having your "investment" (the definition of which is currently screaming in pain at being stretched far enough to include D&D manuals) protected by anyone. Suppose I invent a great new game to replace D&D. Would you be outraged and attempt to use the legal system against me? The fact that you are considering doing this to your friend is beyond absurd; it is appalling. Outrage denied. If you have some sort of problem with internet piracy, then go on a crusade. Join the RIAA; I don't care. You have no reason to complain about his invalidating your "investment", and while you have the right to turn him in to the law for it (not that the law would do anything), I would never treat one of my friends that way. But before you go and plead with the local constabulary, consider this. Who has actually been harmed by this action? By your own admission, WotC has not lost a single customer (since none of the pirates buy manuals anyway). Also, many other posters have discussed the inferiority of .pdf documents as compared to physical books. This should soon become apparent in your game. Unrestricted internet piracy is a concern for society, but nearly so grave a threat as the willingness to turn on one's friends for such a triviality. I wish you ill luck in this and related endeavors. |
| Gedrin05-16-06, 05:58 PM | Unrestricted internet piracy is a concern for society, but nearly so grave a threat as the willingness to turn on one's back on principle for the sake of expediency and popularity. |
| Gondor05-16-06, 06:07 PM | Unrestricted internet piracy is a concern for society, but nearly so grave a threat as the willingness to turn on one's back on principle for the sake of expediency and popularity. That's also true, although rather mangled. The implication is that I endorse turning one's back on principle for the sake of expediency and popularity. I question your reading comprehension if this is truly what you think I believe, and I question your integrity if this is a deliberate strawman. Let me be perfectly clear for the record: Expediency and popularity have less value than abstract ethical principles. Abstract ethical principles have less value than real human beings. My earlier post implied, at best, a difference in abstract ethical principles, and in no way indicated a willingness to disregard those principles for "expediency and popularity" (neither of which, you'll note, were mentioned directly or indirectly in my post). |
| OravennasBrother05-16-06, 06:34 PM | They might deem the piracy law unjust. I know I do. It's a principle solely based on greed and profit, without any actual reason to it. Copying something is just that - copying. You don't steal anything. No Copying Copyright protected material without permission is stealing. In the Book business it has ramifications beyond just "Person A now has their own copy" Every book which a major book store (Barnes and Noble for example) fails to sell in a given time frame is returned. Not the whole book, just the cover. And the store does not pay for that copy. But the publisher did pay for printing the copy. So person A just took money from the publisher if he would otherwise have bought a copy of the book. And the Author. Excluding exceptions like Steven King and John Grisham, Authors do not make 6 figure incomes; many struggle to get by. Many make less than minimum wage; for highly skilled labor. They also are shorted payment by the theft. Reading a book from the library is a different case - that is legal, fair use of a book. What I would do - Ask your friend to get rid of the illegal PDF and purchase the Books. Give him a week or two. Then report him to the police - the FBI has a division which specifically investigates copyright infringement. Yes he will get a huge fine, and MIGHT face some jail time, but he CHOSE to break the law and has ignored a reasonable request to change his stance. |
| J.Augustus Rose II05-16-06, 09:24 PM | Yeah, because it's best you prove you're "the better man" by turning in your so-called friend because you're upset he makes more money than you and that you bought books he didn't. That's a very mature and upstanding thing to do, let me tell you. Which is worse: being a pirate or being an extrodinarily bad person and friend? |
| Gedrin05-17-06, 12:18 AM | That's also true, although rather mangled. The implication is that I endorse turning one's back on principle for the sake of expediency and popularity. I question your reading comprehension if this is truly what you think I believe, and I question your integrity if this is a deliberate strawman.Please try not to begin with the blatant insult. Let me be perfectly clear for the record: Expediency and popularity have less value than abstract ethical principles. Abstract ethical principles have less value than real human beings. No lives of real humans are at stake. What might be at stake are the feelings of people. The OP has actually stated that he believes it to be wrong to use this material, so it seems that his principles are clear in this matter. I personally believe that "abstract ethical prinicples" (like a commitment to honesty or a society of law) are, in generaly, more important than the feelings of others. My earlier post implied, at best, a difference in abstract ethical principles, and in no way indicated a willingness to disregard those principles for "expediency and popularity" (neither of which, you'll note, were mentioned directly or indirectly in my post).I'm sorry if I misunderstood. It seemed that you suggested that there was no genuine harm done and that he would be better off maintaining his relationship with his friends than acting against something he views as wrong. It seemed that you suggested that it would be better to just let it go, and that he would be poorly viewed by others, namely the offending friends, were he to take a stand against their actions. If you were in fact suggesting something else, I would appreciate a clarification. As a side note, I asked my wife, an author, how she would react if she knew that a group of people were downloading her work illegally for use. She said she'd inform the authorites, even if it was only to make the report. |
| Grey_Mage05-17-06, 01:03 AM | Ok, youve made a choice to invest time and money into your hobby of choice. Good for you. You stood up for what you believed in by not taking the CD. Good for you. The other DM has found a way to fix a hole in his resources. Good for him. He has shared this with the players. Double good for him. Hes replaced your book= took long enough, but its a just thing to do. Youve made your stand and said what you dont like to these people. Theyve made theres and done what they feel is right anyways. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on a matter, especially one as grey as file sharing. Wether or not you see it as black and white you must realise that not everyone sees things your way on this issue and allow them to make up their own minds. Now if the continually use these .PDFs of books you dont have, and thus deny you rules that they get to use Id request, politely, that perhaps each player buy a book and bring it in so you guys can have a "hard cover backup" for "ease and convenience during the games" and to "double check" files that may or may not be reliable. Dont expect to get everything you want, and please dont get upset if they politely refuse and/or once again offer you a copy of the disk. I myself believe that file sharing is not a bad thing, nor is profit. If I enjoy a song that Ive downloaded then by god Ill go buy the CD. If I enjoy a Wizards book I read on .PDF Ill go buy it. However considering the amount of stuff out there it really is my only viable alternative to looking up obscure rules, or looking at books before I buy them to see if I will use them or not. Personal quality protection, not to mention economic efficiency. In the end wizards gets more money out of me because I wont buy a book Im not sure about, and in the end I get more enjoyment cause I was sure enough to buy that book. Wether or not you see that as an evil in this world.... *spreads hands* My own opinion remains unchanged. I dont know you, but I do hope you have the maturity to see more than one side of an issue. |
| Grey_Mage05-17-06, 01:09 AM | What I would do - Ask your friend to get rid of the illegal PDF and purchase the Books. Give him a week or two. Then report him to the police - the FBI has a division which specifically investigates copyright infringement. Yes he will get a huge fine, and MIGHT face some jail time, but he CHOSE to break the law and has ignored a reasonable request to change his stance. And you have CHOSEN to tell a person that they should harm their friends. Drakoshade has stated that hes known these people a good deal of time, and you would have him turn them in for such a petty dead as this? What honor and loyalty does that show? Your right, alot of authors make **** poor wages for the artistic and entertainment or informative value that they provide to people around the nation and/or world. Wizards of the coast is NOT such an author. They make a huge amount of money and their writers are paid their salaries wether or not these .pdf's are in existance. This is not the way to happiness. |
| Gondor05-17-06, 02:31 AM | Well, I've sworn off posting this late at night, but here goes anyway. Please try not to begin with the blatant insult. I interpreted your post as you "taking the first shot". Maybe I was in a bad mood when I read it; if you didn't intend it that way then I apologize. No lives of real humans are at stake. What might be at stake are the feelings of people. The OP has actually stated that he believes it to be wrong to use this material, so it seems that his principles are clear in this matter. Obviously no lives are at stake; that wasn't what I was suggesting. Perhaps it would be best to view this as as a question of principles, rather than a question of principles vs. people. I find that my first obligation is not to the law or to any system of honesty, but to my friends. That is the foundation of all ethical systems. It is not a question of offending those friends or of making them angry toward you–what they think is ancillary to other concerns. The question is of how you treat your friends. It matters not that they will dislike you afterward–what matters is that you will have betrayed them. It is... the principle of the thing that matters. I'm sorry if I misunderstood. It seemed that you suggested that there was no genuine harm done and that he would be better off maintaining his relationship with his friends than acting against something he views as wrong. It seemed that you suggested that it would be better to just let it go, and that he would be poorly viewed by others, namely the offending friends, were he to take a stand against their actions. If you were in fact suggesting something else, I would appreciate a clarification. As a side note, I asked my wife, an author, how she would react if she knew that a group of people were downloading her work illegally for use. She said she'd inform the authorites, even if it was only to make the report. Well, I clarified what I meant above, so I won't repeat it here. I will add, however, that what we are discussing is similar to an old ethical conundrum. Given that you must betray one of the two, would you choose your friend or your country? I prefer E.M. Forester's response. He said: "If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country." In this case it isn't a question of betraying one's country, but the markedly less serious offense of violating (indeed, of allowing someone else to violate) that nation's laws. On the level of abstract ethical principles, the choice is between loyalty to one's friends and loyalty to the code of laws. I know which one I would choose. |
| Witch05-17-06, 03:30 AM | No Copying Copyright protected material without permission is stealing. In the Book business it has ramifications beyond just "Person A now has their own copy" Nonsense. The book can still be sold. I'm afraid Copyright Violation is not stealing. Hence I support Copyleft, for all I know about it. |
| DracoPhoenix05-17-06, 03:50 AM | Just in case anyone was wondering, http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31256 is a rather interesting article on how changes to the US law on copyright infringement (care of the music industry & co) means that it is now more severe to infringe copyright than be a very nasty person..... The good news is it appears to only affect software & music infringements - so I don't know if the OPs mates have anything to worry about. Unless they have illigitimate versions of windows. |
| Witch05-17-06, 04:29 AM | Just in case anyone was wondering, http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31256 is a rather interesting article on how changes to the US law on copyright infringement (care of the music industry & co) means that it is now more severe to infringe copyright than be a very nasty person..... The good news is it appears to only affect software & music infringements - so I don't know if the OPs mates have anything to worry about. Unless they have illigitimate versions of windows. My God. How greedy can those people be to put that over assault? Thank God I don't live there. |
| Gedrin05-17-06, 04:54 AM | In this case it isn't a question of betraying one's country, but the markedly less serious offense of violating (indeed, of allowing someone else to violate) that nation's laws. On the level of abstract ethical principles, the choice is between loyalty to one's friends and loyalty to the code of laws. I know which one I would choose.I see it, not a question between loyalty to one's friends and loyalty to the law, but rather between loyalty to friends who are dishonest and adherence to the ideal of honesty. Personally, I'd rather be honest than loyal to those who are dishonest. From my POV, if a stranger were downloading a piece my wife wrote, and I found this out...I might well report that. I certainly wouldn't want to spend several hours of my free time with them. I can't see a way that I could justify my position there, and not support the idea that perhaps these strangers who are downloading another person's for-profit work should be reported as well. How can I say,"People should pay for the books my wife writes and not take her work for free," if I don't also say,"People should pay for the books WotC publishes, and not just take their work for free." In this case, I think it would be perfecty apropriate, if the OP wanted to take a stand on principle, for him to find another group that didn't engage in activity he found dishonest. I am aware that some people feel that this is not dishonest, and that no harm is done. I disagree. Some people feel that it would be unacceptable to turn a friend in for anything other than a violent offense. Again, I don't think I would do it, but at the least I would distance myself from a person if I found their actions unsettling. The wierd thing here is that the basic question: Some people I hang out with are doing something illegal, but I'm not. It makes me mad that they get away with it, while I have to go the legal route. I've tried talking to them, but they don't think there's anything wrong with what they're doing, and they've no plans to stop. Should I report the illegal activity? Should I just leave the group? I'm guessing that normally everyone would suggest he just distance himself and find a group that isn't breaking the law. That's a sensable, non-confrontational, suggestion. ...but this is downloading...and not only should he not report, not only should he not leave the group, but he'd be some sort of tratorous freak if he even left the group. The suggestions here have litterally been that he act against his concience. It is suggested that he stay with a group that is doing something illegal, even if it bothers him. I am normally reluctant to advise people to go against what they think is right (even if I argue for a different view on what is right). The fact that so many people would encourage the OP to do so is troubling to me. Doubly so when it also involves some illegality. |
| Witch05-17-06, 04:57 AM | So what it all comes down to here, is: "Oh no, they're reading something I wrote to get more money. And they didn't give me more money for reading it! Ofcourse I still have the original, but they made a copy and hence I didn't get more money! I want more money! I'm so poor! I'm starving, just like the poor people in Afrika! More money, please! What? No no, if you copy it, I don't lose my version of it - so I don't really lose anything. I just want more money!" That is what copyright is. |
| King_Bulba05-17-06, 05:11 AM | What I would do - Ask your friend to get rid of the illegal PDF and purchase the Books. Give him a week or two. Then report him to the police - the FBI has a division which specifically investigates copyright infringement. Yes he will get a huge fine, and MIGHT face some jail time, but he CHOSE to break the law and has ignored a reasonable request to change his stance. LOL you just won the biggest dusch award for the universe. That is just about the most heartless thing I have heard on this message board and I have seen quite a bit. What type of person do you have to be to turn on your friends just because they do somthing that is not even a crime. Everyone does something that isnt lawful, EVERYONE. If it really bothers you then you should leave. BTW do you call the cops on someone speeding 66 in a 65 zone too? They are also breaking the law. If you dont want to support them using the PDFs then leave. Without your books someone will have to buy the books for playing DnD. |
| DrakoShade05-17-06, 07:46 AM | Point of frustration: DM: "Oh, we don't need your books any more. I've got this." Player: "Yeah, he gave me a copy. Now I don't ever have to buy a book!" Me: "..." DM: "Why don't you have your MM with you, any way? It'd be handy when everybody else shows up and we get started playing!" Me: "You lost it last time I let you borrow it. Remember?" DM: "Oh, yeah... well, I've got the PDF!" No, I wouldn't actually throw in any attempt to get a suit thrown at my gaming buddies. That would be pointless and petty. I don't appreciate the fact that, in later conversations, I've been called a fool for "actually paying for something you can get for free so easily." Another player's words. As for Witch's comments throughout this thread... I'm disappointed. Copyright exists to protect a person's intellectual property. Robert Jordan has every right to decide that people should pay him for the right to read his story, as it IS his work and he put a lot of time into it. Same goes for Boris Valejo wanting people to pay for prints of his paintings. It also applies to Hasboro wanting to be able to pay its writers and playtesters. If you don't want to pay for others' work, then don't expect to benefit from it. It's as simple as that. |
| Sereno05-17-06, 09:55 AM | So what it all comes down to here, is: "Oh no, they're reading something I wrote to get more money. And they didn't give me more money for reading it! Ofcourse I still have the original, but they made a copy and hence I didn't get more money! I want more money! I'm so poor! I'm starving, just like the poor people in Afrika! More money, please! What? No no, if you copy it, I don't lose my version of it - so I don't really lose anything. I just want more money!" That is what copyright is. You don't work for a living, do you? I often notice a high correlation between people who don't work, and people who don't think they need to pay for certain copyrightable material (specifically books and music). Writing a book is work, designing a game is work, composing music is work, writing lyrics is work. People who work deserve to be paid for their work ... and, not only the actual person creating the material but everyone included in the distribution path. Do you think it's in any way fair for a writer (say George R.R. Martin, who's writing a magnificent seriers of books called the "Song of Ice and Fire" or Keith Baker who's writing Eberron novels) to spend a year, or two, writing a book only to sell only one copy and then have everyone else copy and read it for free? It's completely fine to copy things when they're in the public domain, or offered freely by the creator ... it's theft, otherwise. |
| OravennasBrother05-17-06, 09:57 AM | Just in case anyone was wondering, http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31256 is a rather interesting article on how changes to the US law on copyright infringement (care of the music industry & co) means that it is now more severe to infringe copyright than be a very nasty person..... I'm unsure if The Inquirer is a trustworthy sourse. IF, and that is a big if, what it states is true, that child pornography carries less penalty than pirating music/video, then the solution is to increase the sentences for child porography. Not to cheapen the US Constitution. Yes the US constitution mentions Copyright and Patent protection. A document arguably written by some of the most able minds of an age makes a particular point of protecting the value of intellectual property. But wait there's more. I have recently read an economist (Sowell IIRC) who puts forth a strong case that the protection of individual property rights is central to the prosperity of a nation. A corallary to that would be that Intellectual Property, which leads to technological advances, is the most important property for a nation to protect. When someone talks about gray areas, they should consider the possibility that protecting intellectual property of limitted technological value (Fiction for example) cannot be readily distinguished. The TV series Star Treck inspired many people to join NASA, even though the science in the series is minimal. That series (the original Star Trek) had many excellent episodes which were a remake of shorts by Science Fiction Authors. Had there existed no protection for writers, those shorts would not have been written, Star Trek would not have been able to draw upon that body of literature to have superior episode, and no one would have been inspired, any more than they were by Space 1999. It may be impossible to count how many advances which are spin off technology from the NASA space program would not be available today if Star Trek had not inspired any young people in the 60's but the number is almost certainly positive. On the claim that "Copying doesn't take anything away." Try this gedanken experiment. You are in high school and have written a paper for senior English. Another student manages to make a copy of the body of your work, to which they attach their own cover page. That person retains a copy for themself and studies it, knowing that the instructor will try to determine who did the copying. When questioned about details from the paper the instructor believes, and reasonably so, that the other student wrote tha paper. You receive a zero and a hence failing grade which prevents you from graduating. Now tell me that Copy did not take value away from the paper you wrote. On "But I'm just evaluating" There exists a fair use clause in copyright laws to allow reasonable attempts at evaluation. The FAIREST way is to physically borrow a copy from a friend. Nothing is illegal or immoral about letting anyone who desires the chance to read a copy which you legally purchased. However if you use Pirate Copies for evaluation you are open to legal action. If I were sitting on a jury and it could be shown by the accused that any Pirate Copy which was kept more than two weeks resulted in a purchase of a legal copy of the the original work I would be inclined to render a Not Guilty verdict. On "You are Turning on Your Friends" The Law exists for a reason. You have been very fair in telling your friend that you disapprove and are willing to report him. Let me ask: What sort of FRIEND would force you to choose between your conscience and their friendship? If he truly thinks the law is wrong, then he should be willing to stand up and be noticed - Nelson Mandela spent years in prison rather than betray his personal ethical stance. If the OP's friend is such a person then I applaud his defense of his beliefs. I still do not share his beliefs. If however he is someone who has stolen the value of that pirate CD, and just wishes to be left alone with the fruit of his ill gotten gains, then I have no respect for him and he has admitted that he is in fact in agreement with me, that the copyright laws are fair. Sometimes making the MORAL, ETHICAL choice is easy. The Friend of the OP could, upon being confronted easily go to his pirate CD and break it into pieces, discarding those pieces, and wipe any copies off his computer. Sometimes the choice is not so easy. The OP cannot easily turn in his friend, even though it is the right thing to do. There must be a line somewhere, if not the CD then do you turn in a friend when -they ask for help replacing the bumper of their car and admit to you this is because they hit a parked car, drove off, and want to conceal the evidence. -they ask for help replacing the bumper of their car and admit to you this is because they hit a pedestrian, drove off, and want to conceal the evidence. -they ask for help hiding the body of someone they killed, which they admit occured when the (now dead) prson was trying to kill him. -they ask for help hiding the body of a child they killed, which they admit occured whiloe they were shooting child porography. |
| Sereno05-17-06, 10:04 AM | The other DM has found a way to fix a hole in his resources. Good for him. He has shared this with the players. Double good for him. If the DM "fixed the hole in his resources" by managing to sneak a backpack full of books out of Barnes & Noble, would this also be "Good for him"? Likewise if he shared such resources with his players would it be "Double good"? |
| J.Augustus Rose II05-17-06, 10:38 AM | There must be a line somewhere, if not the CD then do you turn in a friend when -they ask for help replacing the bumper of their car and admit to you this is because they hit a parked car, drove off, and want to conceal the evidence. -they ask for help replacing the bumper of their car and admit to you this is because they hit a pedestrian, drove off, and want to conceal the evidence. -they ask for help hiding the body of someone they killed, which they admit occured when the (now dead) prson was trying to kill him. -they ask for help hiding the body of a child they killed, which they admit occured whiloe they were shooting child porography. Did you seriously just compare having pdfs of D&D books to murder and child pornography? What is wrong with you people? If you think the owner of the CD is morally bankrupt then you'd better take a good hard look at yourselves because you're probably the worst people I've ever come across. You think your moral but you're about as far from it as you can get. I'm disgusted. Oh, and just so you lot know: The dm in question is not stealing from the authors and writers. If anything he's stealing from the company. The artists and writers have already been paid and the amount of books sold has no impact on how much money the creators make. How do I know this? Because I'm a freelance artist who's had to sue a company for copyright infringment. And you know what? I barely made enough money from the lawsuit to cover the cost of my lawyers. The amount of product sold by the company made no difference to the court. So the company made out anyway, even though they were in the wrong. But hey, copyright pirates are as bad as kiddie molestors, right? You people make me sick. |
| Sereno05-17-06, 11:05 AM | Oh, and just so you lot know: The dm in question is not stealing from the authors and writers. If anything he's stealing from the company. The artists and writers have already been paid and the amount of books sold has no impact on how much money the creators make. How do I know this? Because I'm a freelance artist who's had to sue a company for copyright infringment. And you know what? I barely made enough money from the lawsuit to cover the cost of my lawyers. The amount of product sold by the company made no difference to the court. So the company made out anyway, even though they were in the wrong. So, it's OK to steal from a "company" because ... why? It sounds like you got a raw deal with someone infringing on your rights, but hey, they weren't stealing anything ... they were just copying! Right? The truth is, your work is just that ... work. You are entitled to get paid for it. If you had been able to get a better contract, you should be paid each and every time someone "acquires" a copy of your work. Just because you didn't get a deal with royalties doesn't make infringing on your copyright and more "right" than if you did. Why is it that so many people think that only people who create PHYSICAL things deserve to get paid for them? |
| J.Augustus Rose II05-17-06, 11:15 AM | So, it's OK to steal from a "company" because ... why? It sounds like you got a raw deal with someone infringing on your rights, but hey, they weren't stealing anything ... they were just copying! Right? The truth is, your work is just that ... work. You are entitled to get paid for it. If you had been able to get a better contract, you should be paid each and every time someone "acquires" a copy of your work. Just because you didn't get a deal with royalties doesn't make infringing on your copyright and more "right" than if you did. Why is it that so many people think that only people who create PHYSICAL things deserve to get paid for them? And betraying a friend because he makes more money than you is okay...why? And that's all this is about. And if you think that freelancing is so easy that you can demand what your contracts state, you have another thing coming. And the artists and writers WERE paid for their work and that's as far as it goes for them. You're stoned if you think they're getting royalties for each book printed. Why is it that people who don't know what they're talking about insist on talking like they do? It's like a friggin' katana thread in here. A lot of people talking and none of them knowing a bloody thing. |
| DracoPhoenix05-17-06, 11:36 AM | Did you seriously just compare having pdfs of D&D books to murder and child pornography? What is wrong with you people? If you think the owner of the CD is morally bankrupt then you'd better take a good hard look at yourselves because you're probably the worst people I've ever come across. You think your moral but you're about as far from it as you can get. I'm disgusted. Um, RTFP - it was in response to this: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31256 Which actually made copyright infringement WORSE than kiddie porn. These are the elected officals deciding it, not us. To OravennasBrother: The inquirer is a pretty reliable source. But it looks like cnet story originally, so milage may vary. But your actual solution has a flawed approach - how about making the punishment of copying an intangible loss, and this is just me, fit the crime? Seriously. The law is being used to prop up an outdated industry. But I feel that the moral / legal rights and wrongs of music sharing are detracting from the OPs problem. (FYI, I am LG irl and don't infringe copyright (or, pirate as it is being banded about - gotta love social engineering), won't stop anyone else other than saying they shouldn't either though. Not going to shop them to the cops as 1) lack of faith in the system (UK: 2% chance an officer will visit / any follow up after a break in, 98% of getting fined and points on your license for speeded... O.o). 2) The music industry is not exactly the moral pillar of society - and sueing customers left right and centre instead of revising their business model isn't exactly helping and 3) the punishment is nowhere in line with the crime. Augustus Rose II: Might surprise you to know that the Music industry is paying the artists very little for their products, and on top of that, charging them for services rendered. They also charge an excessive amount for the product. Now, two wrongs don't make a right, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who bring trouble on themselves by acting so dishonestly, make matters worse and then cannot understand when nobody respects them. |
| OravennasBrother05-17-06, 11:57 AM | Why is it that people who don't know what they're talking about insist on talking like they do? It's like a friggin' katana thread in here. A lot of people talking and none of them knowing a bloody thing. Perhaps you should go to the Home Page of Martha Wells. OR go to Amazon and order some of her books. I read Martha's stuff, have been an admirer of her work since "The Element of Fire," her first novel. Saw her at a convention, where I discovered why it was so difficult to get a Copy of siad "element of Fire" to replace the one I loaned to a friend. Turns out the Publishing company had managed to bind her in a suboptimal contract, and they refuse to reprint. So "The Element of Fire" remains out of print. Most Novelists DO get royalties, but only if enough copies are sold. IF sales are too poor, a novelist may never get another novel published. So every copy "Pirated" directly affects the novelists, even if it is below the threshold for them to get royalties. FYI typical first novels get ~$5,000 US for producing ariound 90,000+ words. Fast Authors can draft at about 2000 words per day, and rewrite to finished form in about the same time it takes to draft, so they get $5,000 for 90 days of work. IF they sell that novel, and IF they managed to write it in 90 days at 8 hours a day they get $6.94 an hour, less because of the time they spend convincing someone to purchase the book, and far less is they attend a lot of conventions (and except for big name authors, the convention fee generally covers travel and lodging but NOT time). A typical writer, who managess only 1000 words a day, makes half as much. For those of you keeping track that's less than $3.47 an hour. Before all the extra time for marketing etc. This is the Internet, so no one can determine if a poster is actually a writer or not. But it is possible to go to Amazon and look up "The Gate of Gods" by Martha Wells, and then go from there to Martha's home page and be sure it is no scam. You can also go to any number of writers resource pages to see confirmation on a lot of the numbers above. Copyright infringement is a serious crime, one which undermines the essential underpinnings of wealth in a modern society. Not everyone can afford to own their own copy of every book they read - they can however go to a public library and legally read it without cost. By the same token not every writer is John Grisham or JRR Tolkien. The World would be a much poorer place if all the novelists like Martha Wells were never published. That is what Copyright piracy could cause. So think on that the next time you decide to STEAL the livelyhood of an author through piracy. |
| jasper05-17-06, 12:00 PM | Order order the local thieves guild number 761-167 will come to order or the sgt at arms will use his magic missile wand You being mad that your investment worthless is silly and does not stand. The person replacing the lost book did what a responsible person should do. He lost it and had to note I say had to replace it. However your group has stolen x copies of copyright material. You have mentioned your two options, and miss one. 1. Remain silently and play with people you think are goobers and immortal. 2. Leave the group. Use your judgment if they want a reason. 3. Tell WOTC give names, addresses, and phone numbers. I would have chosen 2. People are ragging on each other on weather he should drop a dime on his quote friends unquote. Sorry guys and gals every person has his personal limits when comes to law breaking and violating principles. Gondor, My first responsibility is to my principles this does means I sometimes lose friends. Some times I still associate with the former friends for various reasons, same club, same school, same office. Others I wave to in the local gaming store and remember the good times of our passed friendship. |
| Sereno05-17-06, 12:04 PM | And betraying a friend because he makes more money than you is okay...why? And that's all this is about. And if you think that freelancing is so easy that you can demand what your contracts state, you have another thing coming. And the artists and writers WERE paid for their work and that's as far as it goes for them. You're stoned if you think they're getting royalties for each book printed. The issue isn't at all about "he makes more money than you" ... I don't even see where you're getting that. The OP doesn't like the fact that his friend is doing something he finds dishonest but isn't sure how to be true to his values and still keep his (in his, and other's eyes) dishonest friend. There's an even bigger problem, here, in that many people don't think what the DM is doing is at all dishonest and others of us (including the OP) believe that it is. No where in my post did I say that freelancing was easy ... please point it out if I did. I completely understand that that is the nature of the publishing business. You get paid for doing a piece of work, and then the publisher owns it. It works exactly like that in the software consulting business (mine), too. When I develop an application it belongs to my customer (the whole thing, including the source code). If my customer wants to go ahead and sell what I wrote for them and make money from it (maybe millions, I don't know) -- even if I don't ever see another penny for MY work -- it still isn't legal, ethical or fair for someone to just download a "warez" copy of that software and use it for free. If you want a car, you have to buy a car. You don't get to just walk into the parking lot of a mall, pick out a car you like and drive off with it. If you can't afford a car, you save money or finance one or you do without. The same should hold true for non-tangible "intellectual property" -- if you can't afford it, you earn enough to purchase it or do without. If you had your own website selling the work that you'd normally freelance to a bigger publisher (say, selling PDF files for a couple of bucks each). Would you NOT be losing money if I bought one copy of your PDF files and hosted them for free on my web site? Of course you would, and I'd be stealing your work and it would be wrong! |
| J.Augustus Rose II05-17-06, 12:15 PM | Augustus Rose II: Might surprise you to know that the Music industry is paying the artists very little for their products, and on top of that, charging them for services rendered. It doesn't surprise me because it's always been that way with musicians. Bands make the majority of their money by touring and through merchandizing. They make pennies on each cd sold. Most Novelists DO get royalties, but only if enough copies are sold. And that would be a valid point if novelist contracts and freelancer contracts were the same thing. But they are not. So your entire argument is pointless. When you work as a freelancer you learn these things. Obviously you are not and have not. And once again, this has nothing to do with copyright infringement (and really, it's not copyright infringement unless the DM is the one copying AND distributing the cds. But he's not. So he's only in POSSESSION of pirated materials which is an entire other court case.) This entire thing stems from the OP being jealous because the DM has more money than he does and is using swiped books anyway. He's a lousy person and a lousy friend and that entire group would be better off without him around. Oh, and any elected official who says that pirated material is worse than kiddie porn should be removed from office and anyone who agrees would have to be a damned fool. You people need to get off your moral high-horses and get your priorities straight. The issue isn't at all about "he makes more money than you" ... I don't even see where you're getting that. From the OP: "It makes me mad that he's not only made all my investment suddenly worthless, but done so in an obviously illegal way. I've spent hundreds of dollars, and he has twice the amount of resources without spending a dime." "You guys do have a point... it's a rub for a few reasons: a) He makes thrice the money I do. b) Each of the others in the group has at least my income. c) NONE of them have bought a single book." See where I'm getting it from now? He's not mad that it's "piracy." He's mad because of the money issue. If you had your own website selling the work that you'd normally freelance to a bigger publisher (say, selling PDF files for a couple of bucks each). Would you NOT be losing money if I bought one copy of your PDF files and hosted them for free on my web site? Of course you would, and I'd be stealing your work and it would be wrong! And I'm saying that it's even more morally wrong to rat out your friend because you're mad that he makes more money than you do. It's petty and childish. |
| J.Augustus Rose II05-17-06, 12:26 PM | Oops. |
| Sereno05-17-06, 12:42 PM | From the OP: "It makes me mad that he's not only made all my investment suddenly worthless, but done so in an obviously illegal way. I've spent hundreds of dollars, and he has twice the amount of resources without spending a dime." "You guys do have a point... it's a rub for a few reasons: a) He makes thrice the money I do. b) Each of the others in the group has at least my income. c) NONE of them have bought a single book." See where I'm getting it from now? He's not mad that it's "piracy." He's mad because of the money issue. OK, fair enough ... but I also focused on these lines: As for the issue about getting mad at somebody for downloading two albums when I bothered to pay-- I would be. Let's just say that piracy of copyrighted works is one of my major pet peeves. To clarify the situation: the collection of PDFs are pirated, and have now been copied and distributed to every other member of our group (I refused the copy he made for me.) It seems that the piracy is at least as problematic for the OP ... that fact that the guy makes enough to legally purchase the material seems to be additional "salt in the wound". And I'm saying that it's even more morally wrong to rat out your friend because you're mad that he makes more money than you do. It's petty and childish. I agree. But what about the law breaking? Would you stand by a friend who was selling pot? Selling alcohol to 18-year-old frat guys? Where someone draws the line in the sand of "OK, I don't like what you're doing but we're still friends" is a valid argument. I have a friend who doesn't believe it's a problem to download. I'm still his friend. I just hassle him about it, hoping he'll change his mind. :) |
| J.Augustus Rose II05-17-06, 12:53 PM | OK, fair enough ... but I also focused on these lines: It seems that the piracy is at least as problematic for the OP ... that fact that the guy makes enough to legally purchase the material seems to be additional "salt in the wound". I disagree. Look at it again: As for the issue about getting mad at somebody for downloading two albums when I bothered to pay-- I would be It's still about money. Where someone draws the line in the sand of "OK, I don't like what you're doing but we're still friends" is a valid argument. But he's not doing that. He's threatening to turn his "friend" into the cops because he's mad about money. That's extremely petty and far more morally bankrupt than copying files. I mean look at the guy. He was complaining that the DM lost his MM even AFTER the DM bought him a brand new one! This guy is about as far from moral as you can get. |
| OravennasBrother05-17-06, 01:18 PM | This guy is about as far from moral as you can get. Lass Moral would you say than someone who trafficks in child porography? I cannot agree with that. I did not even express agreement with the statement "Copyright Infringement should be punished more severely than Child Pornography." In point of fact, I stated that rather than lessen the punishment for Copyright infringement, one should increase the punishment for Child Pornography. I will go further and state that so long as the punishment for child porography is insufficient to deter said crime it is insufficient and should be increased. I did not even tell the OP to "Rat out" his friend. I told him that I would confront the "friend" and inform him of my stance and ONLY if he refused to conform to the law would I, OravennasBrother, notify the authorities. This is still my advice for the ethical approach to the situation. I do not imagine that the OP will actually "Rat out" his friend, though I hope that he can find a new group should he choose to disassociate with his current gaming group. I do encourage him to turn in his friend, as I believe it is the right thing to do, just as you encourage him to ignore it as you believe that is the right thing to do. I could have mistaken your intent. As a writer I would expect you to have a concern for Copyright law. Certainly, if you ever aspire to write a novel, I would think you would be irate if a publishing company were to return your manuscript, tell you they could not use it, then publish from the copy they made and claim "Hey I gave you back the physical document, you were out nothing." |
| J.Augustus Rose II05-17-06, 01:27 PM | Lass Moral would you say than someone who trafficks in child porography? I cannot agree with that. That's the craziest thing I've heard all day. I did not even express agreement with the statement "Copyright Infringement should be punished more severely than Child Pornography." In point of fact, I stated that rather than lessen the punishment for Copyright infringement, one should increase the punishment for Child Pornography. I will go further and state that so long as the punishment for child porography is insufficient to deter said crime it is insufficient and should be increased. I'll agree that the punishment for child porn should be harsher but how that puts it on the same level as photocopying something that isn't yours is beyond me. It makes me rather ill that people could even compare the two. I do encourage him to turn in his friend, as I believe it is the right thing to do, just as you encourage him to ignore it as you believe that is the right thing to do. And if you'd do this you'd be a lousy friend too. I could have mistaken your intent. As a writer I would expect you to have a concern for Copyright law. Certainly, if you ever aspire to write a novel, I would think you would be irate if a publishing company were to return your manuscript, tell you they could not use it, then publish from the copy they made and claim "Hey I gave you back the physical document, you were out nothing." Actually, I'm an artist but that's just splitting hairs. And by law, the company could take the ideas from the manuscript and print it as their own book and I couldn't do a bloody thing about it. You can't copyright ideas so your example is invalid. But as an artist I am concerned about copyright laws. But the OP isn't concerned for the law, as I've pointed out. He's concerned about money. That makes it petty and immoral. |
| DracoPhoenix05-17-06, 01:44 PM | Well, back to the OP (I just love scenic routes :)): If it's that much of an issue, the OP should just ditch the group. I can't see the rest of the group buying the originals, even on the installment plan. If he can't reconcile his ethical views on the matter (and I'm not saying he is right or wrong (he's right :D)) it will only aggrevate any and all future encounters. As for the turning them into the police (though I think copyright infringement can only be delt with by the copyright holders), it won't solve that much, and will most likely cause more harm than good in the long run. (That said, I wouldn't be surprised if WotC, having read the board hasn't pm'd him) |
| Witch05-17-06, 01:59 PM | You don't work for a living, do you? I often notice a high correlation between people who don't work, and people who don't think they need to pay for certain copyrightable material (specifically books and music). Writing a book is work, designing a game is work, composing music is work, writing lyrics is work. People who work deserve to be paid for their work ... and, not only the actual person creating the material but everyone included in the distribution path. Do you think it's in any way fair for a writer (say George R.R. Martin, who's writing a magnificent seriers of books called the "Song of Ice and Fire" or Keith Baker who's writing Eberron novels) to spend a year, or two, writing a book only to sell only one copy and then have everyone else copy and read it for free? It's completely fine to copy things when they're in the public domain, or offered freely by the creator ... it's theft, otherwise. As for Witch's comments throughout this thread... I'm disappointed. Copyright exists to protect a person's intellectual property. Robert Jordan has every right to decide that people should pay him for the right to read his story, as it IS his work and he put a lot of time into it. Same goes for Boris Valejo wanting people to pay for prints of his paintings. It also applies to Hasboro wanting to be able to pay its writers and playtesters. If you don't want to pay for others' work, then don't expect to benefit from it. It's as simple as that. I do not believe in copyright at all, and I do not believe that artists should consider writing/painting/etc their job. No, I don't work. I still write. I make it public. I don't consider anything I write "my property", cause it's not. All I expect is the acknowledgement that I wrote it. I've heard about people who threathened to sue a DM for using their characters, because they quit the campaign and didn't want the character to become an NPC. Because it's "the violation of intellectual property". No. If I deem a writer good, I will support him. Writing should never be a job, it should be a hobby. You write because you like it. You write because you want to inspire people. You write because you like to create beauty. You do not write because you want money. I'll support people if I like their material, because I would like to see more. I will pay for the books that I find worth it. And I've got a hell of a lot of books I think I should never ever have bought, because their quality was far far inferior. What a lot of us pay for now, for example, is advertisement. When you buy a movie ticket - you pay a lot to advertisers, and extravagant amounts for actors. Do I deem it just that actors receive millions of dollars for their simple role in a movie? No. Do I deem it just that books such as the Da Vinci code create a hype upon complete fiction portrayed as reality? No. If things deserve support, they will get support. Copyright is an excuse of bad writers, failed singer-songwriters and others. Since you bring up Robert Jordan: I've bought every single Wheel of Time book. I could've just borrowed it from the library, for free. I didn't do that, however. I bought every single one of them. As for Martin, I'd buy them if I could find them. They're quite hard to find here. Willing people will continue writing, with or without support. Perhaps they'll just distribute it as e-books. Perhaps not. If they're talented, they'll eventually get support, and be payed to make time for more creations. The silliness of the copyright industry is enourmous, at times. Now, if you deem these opinions disappointing, sure, go ahead. But allow me to say: writing is nót work if you like it. If you don't like it, you shouldn't do it. |
| Sereno05-17-06, 02:00 PM | Actually, I'm an artist but that's just splitting hairs. And by law, the company could take the ideas from the manuscript and print it as their own book and I couldn't do a bloody thing about it. You can't copyright ideas so your example is invalid. I'm not sure that's exactly right. If I wrote a book about a young wizard name Barry Planter* who attends a magic school named Bullwarts, I'm pretty sure that JK Rowling and her publisher would have plenty to say, and plenty of legal action to take. You can't just steal the basic plot and characters from someone's work and get away with it; there was just a case about this in the news (Kaavya Viswanathan (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195162,00.html) ). You are right that you can't copyright "ideas" but there IS a line where ideas cross over into tangible elements that can be copyrighted. *Edited because I realized that in my example I was actually ripping off Rich Burlew of OOTS! :) |
| Sereno05-17-06, 02:31 PM | I do not believe in copyright at all, and I do not believe that artists should consider writing/painting/etc their job. No, I don't work. I still write. I make it public. I don't consider anything I write "my property", cause it's not. All I expect is the acknowledgement that I wrote it. That's perfectly fine for you, or me, or anyone to do. I do this myself with a number of "freeware" DM tools I've written. But, it is MY choice to give away my work. It's not YOUR choice to take it and give it away for me. I've heard about people who threathened to sue a DM for using their characters, because they quit the campaign and didn't want the character to become an NPC. Because it's "the violation of intellectual property". No. OK, this, I'll grant you, is ridiculous. If I deem a writer good, I will support him. Writing should never be a job, it should be a hobby. You write because you like it. You write because you want to inspire people. You write because you like to create beauty. You do not write because you want money. I'll support people if I like their material, because I would like to see more. I will pay for the books that I find worth it. And I've got a hell of a lot of books I think I should never ever have bought, because their quality was far far inferior. Why shouldn't a writer write for money? Why should that be any different than making cars, or furniture, or violins? If everyone had to have a "day job" because writing should only be a hobby, we'd have so much less material to choose from because it would take years and years for anyone to ever finish a novel. I already wait long enough for each of George R.R. Martin's novels ... I would hate to wait even longer because he should have a "day job". What a lot of us pay for now, for example, is advertisement. When you buy a movie ticket - you pay a lot to advertisers, and extravagant amounts for actors. Do I deem it just that actors receive millions of dollars for their simple role in a movie? No. Do I deem it just that books such as the Da Vinci code create a hype upon complete fiction portrayed as reality? No. So long as moviegoers continue to go to movies, actors will continue to receive big salaries for it. Same goes for sports, too. So what? Does "having a lot of money" mean it's OK to be stolen from? Is it fair for some homeless guy to mug you and take your wallet because he had nothing and you've got $50? If things deserve support, they will get support. Copyright is an excuse of bad writers, failed singer-songwriters and others. Since you bring up Robert Jordan: I've bought every single Wheel of Time book. I could've just borrowed it from the library, for free. I didn't do that, however. I bought every single one of them. Willing people will continue writing, with or without support. Perhaps they'll just distribute it as e-books. Perhaps not. If they're talented, they'll eventually get support, and be payed to make time for more creations. The silliness of the copyright industry is enourmous, at times. This is so short-sighted as to be laughable. Even the greatest novelist in the world wouldn't be "supported" if they can't get their product to the market. That requires publishers, book-stores, transportation and a host of other support services. Now, if you deem these opinions disappointing, sure, go ahead. But allow me to say: writing is nót work if you like it. If you don't like it, you shouldn't do it. Why should art (writing, music, painting) be any different than other work? In a perfect world, everyone should enjoy doing their jobs. I certainly enjoy mine ... no matter how much someone enjoys doing their job, they still deserve to be paid for it! |
| Witch05-17-06, 02:46 PM | That's perfectly fine for you, or me, or anyone to do. I do this myself with a number of "freeware" DM tools I've written. But, it is MY choice to give away my work. It's not YOUR choice to take it and give it away for me. I'm afraid I don't even believe property itself is right, even less so for intellectual property. I feel claiming property is infact, stealing. OK, this, I'll grant you, is ridiculous. I know - apparently the woman even threathened with a lawsuit. Why shouldn't a writer write for money? Why should that be any different than making cars, or furniture, or violins? Because you're not making anything material. A violinmaker takes twice as much time for two violins as he does for one. A writer takes just the same amount of time for two copies of one book. So long as moviegoers continue to go to movies, actors will continue to receive big salaries for it. Same goes for sports, too. So what? Does "having a lot of money" mean it's OK to be stolen from? Is it fair for some homeless guy to mug you and take your wallet because he had nothing and you've got $50? If the homeless guy is starving? I'd certainly not hold a grudge. It might not be okay to steal, but it's certainly not okay to let someone starve. Why should art (writing, music, painting) be any different than other work? Let's go into this comparison. If I see you made a chair, and I copy that chair with my own materials, will I be sued? No. If I see you made a book, and I copy that book with my own materials (paper), wil I be sued? I might. |
| OravennasBrother05-17-06, 02:59 PM | I'll agree that the punishment for child porn should be harsher but how that puts it on the same level as photocopying something that isn't yours is beyond me. It makes me rather ill that people could even compare the two. Both are Illegal, that is the point of commonality between the two. As long as Both are illegal, then both should be punished in a way that discourages said behaviour. Now you are free to believe that it should not be illegal to copy copyright protectec material. If you are a man (or woman) or principle, you will announce your defiance of the law and accept the punishment meted out as a method of demonstrating your principles. If you do that, I will applaud your convictions. If however, you surreptitiously copy copyright protected material, and attempt to hide said tansgression, then I will view you as no different than any other criminal. Protection of Property rights, including intellectual property, is vital to both the wealth of nations and of individuals. Ignoring property rights, including Intellectual property rights, leads to a decline in wealth on both a national and individual scale. Copyright violation is not a victimless crime, all society suffers - including the holder of the intellectual property rights. I personally would rather live at the level of wealth prevalent in the United States, a country with the strongest intellectual property rights of any nation, than live at the level of wealth prevalent in Ethiopia, a country with weak property rights and little protection of intellectual poperty. I am willing to go further and say that it would please me greatly if every nation around the globe strengthened Intellectual property rights with the result that every nation rose to the per capita wealth of the United States. I also conceded the point that some individuals would find that state of affairs appaling, and that others might have such distaste for intellectual property rights that in order to indulge their preferences they would willingly condemn billions of human beings to poverty rather than give up their right to cheap copies of intellectual property. I just would hope not to meet them on these boards. |
| 00_Whupass05-17-06, 03:13 PM | I'm afraid I don't even believe property itself is right, even less so for intellectual property. I feel claiming property is infact, stealing. Well your in the minority there, thats ok, just be aware of it and don't expect a lot of people to agree with you. A violinmaker takes twice as much time for two violins as he does for one. A writer takes just the same amount of time for two copies of one book.You're leaving out consideration of the whole chain of production, yes the author doesn't invest any additional time in printing that second book, but tons of people do, from the publisher to the printers, right on down to the stock clerk and cashier at the local Barnes and Noble. Copyright laws protect these people as well. Let's go into this comparison. If I see you made a chair, and I copy that chair with my own materials, will I be sued? No. If I see you made a book, and I copy that book with my own materials (paper), wil I be sued? I might. If I made a chair and can prove that you used substantive design elements from my design, which I have not released to the public domain you have committed the same tort as if you copy a book. The design of the chair is my intellectual property which you have violated without my consent. The reason you're less likely to be sued is because chair makers have comparitively shallow pockets and don't generally have the liquidity to weather long court cases, and the likely damages in such a court case are likely less than the opportunity cost of prosecution making legal action a bad business decision. This has nothing to do with the law, which you have violated equally in both cases. |
| OravennasBrother05-17-06, 03:24 PM | I'm afraid I don't even believe property itself is right, even less so for intellectual property. I feel claiming property is infact, stealing. Because you're not making anything material. A violinmaker takes twice as much time for two violins as he does for one. A writer takes just the same amount of time for two copies of one book. Let's go into this comparison. If I see you made a chair, and I copy that chair with my own materials, will I be sued? No. If I see you made a book, and I copy that book with my own materials (paper), wil I be sued? I might. A few points - If you don't believe in property rights then how can ANY action be stealing? BTW can I umm Borrow your car, computer, and anyting else you have on hand of value? Since you don't lay claim to the property I would like to have it. :rolleyes: How much labor does a violin maker take in making a single violin? How much is he reimbursed for that labor? How much time does a writer take to write a single novel? Why should his time and labor be worth nothing? If the original Chair was made from a specific pattern, and you used the pattern without permission you COULD be sued. It would be akin to copying a dress pattern - you know those fragile onionskin paper things people can use to help insure that their work in making a dress is not wasted because they got a measurement or angle or stitch wrong. The same sorts of patterns DO exist for carpentry and stealing them is the same as stealing a Dress Pattern. A book BTW obtains most of its value from the information contained therein. IF you doubt that, try this experiment - take one of your Robert Jordan Novels and ADD to it. Add Ink on every single page so it obscures the original print. IF the information has no value, then what you now hold should be worth more, because the INK you added is a material object. Go ahead, try it and report what others thought the change in value might be. |
| Witch05-17-06, 03:31 PM | You're leaving out consideration of the whole chain of production, yes the author doesn't invest any additional time in printing that second book, but tons of people do, from the publisher to the printers, right on down to the stock clerk and cashier at the local Barnes and Noble. Copyright laws protect these people as well. Put it on a website, and a lot of these people become unnecessary. If I made a chair and can prove that you used substantive design elements from my design, which I have not released to the public domain you have committed the same tort as if you copy a book. The design of the chair is my intellectual property which you have violated without my consent. Which is silly... Imagine I got to the same idea, on my own. Could you sue me then? |
| Witch05-17-06, 03:34 PM | A few points - If you don't believe in property rights then how can ANY action be stealing? BTW can I umm Borrow your car, computer, and anyting else you have on hand of value? Since you don't lay claim to the property I would like to have it. :rolleyes: Any action which lays claim to something which should never be owned by anyone is stealing. Property happened when someone said "This is mine" and people accepted that. He stole it from the rest of the world, in a way. How much labor does a violin maker take in making a single violin? How much is he reimbursed for that labor? How much time does a writer take to write a single novel? Why should his time and labor be worth nothing? A violin? Takes a couple of months, I believe. And heavily reimbursed, yes. If the original Chair was made from a specific pattern, and you used the pattern without permission you COULD be sued. It would be akin to copying a dress pattern - you know those fragile onionskin paper things people can use to help insure that their work in making a dress is not wasted because they got a measurement or angle or stitch wrong. The same sorts of patterns DO exist for carpentry and stealing them is the same as stealing a Dress Pattern. A book BTW obtains most of its value from the information contained therein. IF you doubt that, try this experiment - take one of your Robert Jordan Novels and ADD to it. Add Ink on every single page so it obscures the original print. IF the information has no value, then what you now hold should be worth more, because the INK you added is a material object. Go ahead, try it and report what others thought the change in value might be. I believe information should be free for all to know. |
| J.Augustus Rose II05-17-06, 03:43 PM | Both are Illegal, that is the point of commonality between the two. As long as Both are illegal, then both should be punished in a way that discourages said behaviour. Now you are free to believe that it should not be illegal to copy copyright protectec material. If you are a man (or woman) or principle, you will announce your defiance of the law and accept the punishment meted out as a method of demonstrating your principles. If you do that, I will applaud your convictions. If however, you surreptitiously copy copyright protected material, and attempt to hide said tansgression, then I will view you as no different than any other criminal. Did you even bother reading the rest of the thread before you hopped on your high-horse? :rolleyes: Oh, and the fact that you see child molestors and kiddie pornographers as the same as someone who copies things disgusts me to the point that I have nothing more to say to you. Good day. To everyone else: Why are you wasting your time with Witch? Either he/she is just screwing with you or he/she is really out of touch with reality. Either way, why bother? |
| Sereno05-17-06, 03:44 PM | I'm afraid I don't even believe property itself is right, even less so for intellectual property. I feel claiming property is infact, stealing. So, you wouldn't report it to the police if someone came in to your house (or dorm room) and walked off with all of your (not-)possessions? Do you lock your doors when you leave? If so, since nothing behind them is actually property and your own life isn't in danger (since you're not there), why? Strange.... :confused: Because you're not making anything material. A violinmaker takes twice as much time for two violins as he does for one. A writer takes just the same amount of time for two copies of one book. Just because it's not material doesn't mean it's WORTHLESS. You sound like those people who justify stealing MP3's because music is just sound, and sound is just waves in the air, and you can't charge for air.... :rolleyes: If the homeless guy is starving? I'd certainly not hold a grudge. It might not be okay to steal, but it's certainly not okay to let someone starve. Nope ... he's not starving. He's just had a filling meal from a local soup kitchen ... he just wants the $50 to buy a couple bottles of Mad Dog 20/20 for the afternoon. But, you have more money than he has, so it's OK for him to take it from you, right? Let's go into this comparison. If I see you made a chair, and I copy that chair with my own materials, will I be sued? No. If I see you made a book, and I copy that book with my own materials (paper), wil I be sued? I might. Well, it depends on whose chair you copy. A generic mass-produced K-Mart plastic chair ... of course not. If you pick a known designer and try to sell the knock-offs as your own ... you might be. And, should be. And, as far as the "Well maybe I had the idea completely on my own at the same time" argument, the chances that two people, working independently, coming up with exactly the same design are so ridiculously slim that you'd better be prepared to PROVE that you had your idea first. That's how copyright and patent law works. |
| OravennasBrother05-17-06, 03:49 PM | Any action which lays claim to something which should never be owned by anyone is stealing. Property happened when someone said "This is mine" and people accepted that. He stole it from the rest of the world, in a way. I believe information should be free for all to know. So if I make something is it mine? Or would that be stealing my creation from the rest of the world? FYI (and this is even free information) public Libraries exist so one can access information for FREE. You just cannot make a COPY of said information without reimbursing the holder of the Intellectual property rights (betond that coverred by fair use law). Really though, you could gain my great admiration by making a lot of bootleg copies of different things, going to the FBI and telling them "I made all these copies because I believe it is unethical for the law to prevent me from making these copies." Give them a written uncoerced confession of having copied and distributed all sorts of information to which you have no Legal right. Then make a big public court case out of it. Show everyone that you are willing to stand up for your beliefs. Even go to prison for them. Just don't write a book about your experience and copyright it. That would be hypocritical. |