"A good nights sleep" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"A good nights sleep" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Herr Doktor
12-11-03, 06:02 PM My question concerns Wizards and the requirement of getting a good nights sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook to memorize spells per day.

A ring of sustenance makes it so that a person who needs to sleep only needs to sleep for 2 hours to be fully rested.

Does this mean a wizard with a ring of sustenance only needs to rest 3 hours 2 sleeping 1 studying to memorize new spellsWhat about a lich They dont sleep at all.

Is all that is required of them an hour of reading to have a full arsenal of spells againThe only thing I found about this in a source book is in the Unapproachable East with the Volodni race.

They get a special quality called Sustenance that states they only need two hours of sleep each night to gain the benefits of 8 hours of sleep although arcane spellcasters must still have 8 hours rest to prepare spells.

Is this the same case for rings of sustenance, elves, and lichdom?
Gondor
12-11-03, 06:20 PM Wizards need 8 hours of sleep. Rings of Sustenance don't matter. Neither does being an elf. I think this example was given in the PHB somewhere (maybe taken out in third edition): An elven wizard needs only 4 hours of trance to refresh his body. To refresh his mind, he needs 8 hours of rest. Thus, he could trance for 4 hours, and rest for 4 more, and then prepare spells.

Of course, for each interruption to your rest, you need an extra hour of sleep.
Mitchell
12-12-03, 12:48 AM Sleep for however long you need to (2, 4, or 8 hrs), but you must rest for 8 hrs. No conversation, combat, or any skill checks basically. Two elven casters could platoon watch, with one sleeping, then just waking and sitting around the camp (remember, no listen or spot checks), while the other does it in reverse.
nagilfarswake
12-14-03, 03:01 AM i disagree about the listen/spot. those are passive, not active, so i don't think it should be a problem.
mojo_202
12-15-03, 12:43 AM A wizard must have 8 hours of uninturrupted rest. This can be just sleep, but it must be restfull. That means that they cannot move around, (ie. travel), engage in combat, cast spells, use skills, converse with others, or do any sort of physically or mentally demanding task. Each inturruption adds an hour to the rest required and there must be one full hour of rest just before spell preparation.

This is taken right from the 3.5 PHB, (although in my words). So when it says 8 hours of sleep, it states that it must actually be 8 ours of uninterrupted rest.
Millennium
12-15-03, 10:21 AM A wizard needs eight hours to relax before preparing new spells. Unwinding and getting rid of the day's stress, and all that.

Most humanoidscan just go to sleep and get that relaxation; effectively killing two birds with one stone. Elves can get some of it by trancing, but then will need to find some other means of relaxation. Of course, who ever said elves couldn't trance for eight hours if they wanted to? It'd probably be less boring that way.

Rings of Sustenance grant the physical benefits of eight hours of sleep after only two, but that's still not enough time to relax. You'll have to find some other means of relaxation for the other six hours. Or perhaps you could house-rule (is this really a house-rule, even?) that someone with a ring of sustenance can still sleep for eight hours if they want to.
Kyaran
12-15-03, 04:22 PM Required: 8 hours of uninterrupted rest. Not sleep.
Sleep for 2, then rest (no strenuous activity) for the next 6.

Skill checks are totally fine. Standing/sitting watch is also OK, as long as they aren't running laps around the camp or participating in any combats. (I should really check to see if combat going on nearby counts as a 'distraction'.)
Raist27m
12-15-03, 06:19 PM Does anyone actually enforce this rule? Every campaign I've ever been in allows spells to be prepared so long as there was some rest, and it was essentially the next day. I've never seen anyone be hardcore about this rule.
YaoiGoddess
12-16-03, 03:39 AM What about elven clerics?
Santherus
12-16-03, 06:42 AM Doesn't matter - clerics don't need rest; they always prepare their spells at a given time, rest or no.
Edymnion
12-16-03, 11:31 PM Originally posted by Raist27m
Does anyone actually enforce this rule? Every campaign I've ever been in allows spells to be prepared so long as there was some rest, and it was essentially the next day. I've never seen anyone be hardcore about this rule. Yes, I enforce it as a DM, the three games I'm playing in as a player online right now enforce it, and all of the face to face games I've been in enforce it.

You must have 8 hours of rest, or you don't get your spells, period.
Otherwise, you get horrible abuses, such as the Ring of Sustanence, or worse yet, an Elemental Savant. The ES becomes an elemental creature. Elementals don't sleep, they don't need to. An Elemental Savant does not require sleep, and possibly not even food, but they would still need 8 hours of downtime to get their spells back.
Raist27m
12-17-03, 09:51 AM Originally posted by Edymnion
Yes, I enforce it as a DM, the three games I'm playing in as a player online right now enforce it, and all of the face to face games I've been in enforce it.

You must have 8 hours of rest, or you don't get your spells, period.
Otherwise, you get horrible abuses, such as the Ring of Sustanence, or worse yet, an Elemental Savant. The ES becomes an elemental creature. Elementals don't sleep, they don't need to. An Elemental Savant does not require sleep, and possibly not even food, but they would still need 8 hours of downtime to get their spells back.

I've never seen it strictly enforced. Yes, I require 8 hours of rest, but if it's interrupted at night by an attacking orc or something, I don't make them wait until 8 hours after that attack. I've never seen anyone else do it either.
Kyaran
12-17-03, 11:18 AM Originally posted by Raist27m
if it's interrupted at night by an attacking orc or something, I don't make them wait until 8 hours after that attack. I've never seen anyone else do it either.
That's because you don't wait another 8 hours. Each interruption adds one hour to the total required.
This is on the same page (PHB 177) that talks about characters still needing 8 hours of rest even if they don't need to sleep.
Lady Mia
12-17-03, 04:31 PM I agree with the others.

They clearly state that its Mental Rest not Physical Rest that a wizard needs to refresh her spell casting alotment. Many races and devices remove the need for physical rest or reduce the need as in the case of the elf. In this case you still need 8 hours of rest so that you can get the required Mental Rest.

There is only one exception I have found. The Ring of Sustenance clearly states that it refreshes you both Physically AND Mentally as if you had a full 8 hours on only 2 hours of sleep. So if you have that one particular item you can refresh spells with only 3 uninterrupted hours. To my knowledge this is the only item that states this benefit. Its a nice tool for a wizard... but I have found in practice the group rarely sits in one spot for the 3 hours needed unless they are camping. The biggest benifit of the device seems to be that its much harder to interrupt your sleep if the group does stop to camp. After all you get interrupted less in 3 hours than you will in 9 hours.
Aranael
12-17-03, 04:53 PM I agree entirely about what everyone else has said regarding the Rules (how can anyone not, they Are the rules, after all), but Not about their rationalization.

When it describes the Elves, it specifically says that they Trance, a series of Mental exercises that in essence provide the benefits of 8 hours of sleep. Now, if you know anything about sleep mechanics, the issue with sleep is Rarely entirely physical. Your body Does need some down time, otherwise you wear yourself out, but you get the same physical benefits from just sitting restlessly. It is the mental processes, the chemicals that need replenishment and removal, and all of the things involving the Brain, that truly require Sleep, not just rest.

Now, when elves Trance, they Get the mental requirements. All arguments about “relaxation” are then null, since the elves Just Did the Mental part. That is what Trance is. The ruling that they need 8 hours of rest, then, is a purely mechanical thing, meant to preserve balance. You could also argue that well, then, they need to refresh their Bodies, through down time longer than 4 hours, in order to do it. If that were the case, they would be fatigued unless they rested 8 hours a day, even though they only need 4 to refresh their minds. There is no “realistic” reason that they should need 8 hours, other than to Not make them any better of Arcane Spellcasters than Humans and other races, or eliminate abuses with Rings of Sustenance etc.

Now, personally, I partly find this unsatisfying. It seems dumb, that someone needs to just Sit there for 4 hours after their mind is fully rested before their mind is ready to do the work required to memorize spells. Or better yet, someone just got the benefits of 8 hours of sleep, but their minds need more Rest, another 6 hours, in fact, which is to be gotten while they waste a quarter of the day pointlessly. To bring it down to the lowest common denominator, as it were, seems rather dumb to me.

Personally, then, I handle it like this (note- this is Purely a house rule, everyone else has already given the rules as they stand). If they want to rest for less than 8 hours, fine. If they rest 2 hours a night, so be it, though they suffer fatigue if not everyone can go with that little. As to resting in the middle of the day every so often, or worse just the Wizard doing so, I only allow them to prepare new spells once per day. Per Day. So, in my campaign, not even resting for 8 hours in the middle of a dungeon to renew spells works, you Must wait it out for the next day.

How do I justify this to myself? In part, looking at Clerics, and how they prepare them at a certain time every day, drawing inferences from that, looking at the rules for preparing spells mid day, and how any slots that you Did Not Prepare you can fill, though Not any slots that are empty since you cast spells in the last day, etc. Mostly, though, it is purely a balance issue still, just one that I and my players are more comfortable with. When the entire party sits around for 6 hours a day doing nothing but waiting for the Arcane spellcasters to be ready to move, purely because of a mechanics rule, it is time for something to change, IMHO. So long as you don’t let it be abused, why not?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Herr Doktor 12-11-03, 06:02 PM	My question concerns Wizards and the requirement of getting a good nights sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook to memorize spells per day. A ring of sustenance makes it so that a person who needs to sleep only needs to sleep for 2 hours to be fully rested. Does this mean a wizard with a ring of sustenance only needs to rest 3 hours 2 sleeping 1 studying to memorize new spellsWhat about a lich They dont sleep at all. Is all that is required of them an hour of reading to have a full arsenal of spells againThe only thing I found about this in a source book is in the Unapproachable East with the Volodni race. They get a special quality called Sustenance that states they only need two hours of sleep each night to gain the benefits of 8 hours of sleep although arcane spellcasters must still have 8 hours rest to prepare spells. Is this the same case for rings of sustenance, elves, and lichdom?
Gondor 12-11-03, 06:20 PM	Wizards need 8 hours of sleep. Rings of Sustenance don't matter. Neither does being an elf. I think this example was given in the PHB somewhere (maybe taken out in third edition): An elven wizard needs only 4 hours of trance to refresh his body. To refresh his mind, he needs 8 hours of rest. Thus, he could trance for 4 hours, and rest for 4 more, and then prepare spells. Of course, for each interruption to your rest, you need an extra hour of sleep.
Mitchell 12-12-03, 12:48 AM	Sleep for however long you need to (2, 4, or 8 hrs), but you must rest for 8 hrs. No conversation, combat, or any skill checks basically. Two elven casters could platoon watch, with one sleeping, then just waking and sitting around the camp (remember, no listen or spot checks), while the other does it in reverse.
nagilfarswake 12-14-03, 03:01 AM	i disagree about the listen/spot. those are passive, not active, so i don't think it should be a problem.
mojo_202 12-15-03, 12:43 AM	A wizard must have 8 hours of uninturrupted rest. This can be just sleep, but it must be restfull. That means that they cannot move around, (ie. travel), engage in combat, cast spells, use skills, converse with others, or do any sort of physically or mentally demanding task. Each inturruption adds an hour to the rest required and there must be one full hour of rest just before spell preparation. This is taken right from the 3.5 PHB, (although in my words). So when it says 8 hours of sleep, it states that it must actually be 8 ours of uninterrupted rest.
Millennium 12-15-03, 10:21 AM	A wizard needs eight hours to relax before preparing new spells. Unwinding and getting rid of the day's stress, and all that. Most humanoidscan just go to sleep and get that relaxation; effectively killing two birds with one stone. Elves can get some of it by trancing, but then will need to find some other means of relaxation. Of course, who ever said elves couldn't trance for eight hours if they wanted to? It'd probably be less boring that way. Rings of Sustenance grant the physical benefits of eight hours of sleep after only two, but that's still not enough time to relax. You'll have to find some other means of relaxation for the other six hours. Or perhaps you could house-rule (is this really a house-rule, even?) that someone with a ring of sustenance can still sleep for eight hours if they want to.
Kyaran 12-15-03, 04:22 PM	Required: 8 hours of uninterrupted rest. Not sleep. Sleep for 2, then rest (no strenuous activity) for the next 6. Skill checks are totally fine. Standing/sitting watch is also OK, as long as they aren't running laps around the camp or participating in any combats. (I should really check to see if combat going on nearby counts as a 'distraction'.)
Raist27m 12-15-03, 06:19 PM	Does anyone actually enforce this rule? Every campaign I've ever been in allows spells to be prepared so long as there was some rest, and it was essentially the next day. I've never seen anyone be hardcore about this rule.
YaoiGoddess 12-16-03, 03:39 AM	What about elven clerics?
Santherus 12-16-03, 06:42 AM	Doesn't matter - clerics don't need rest; they always prepare their spells at a given time, rest or no.
Edymnion 12-16-03, 11:31 PM	Originally posted by Raist27m Does anyone actually enforce this rule? Every campaign I've ever been in allows spells to be prepared so long as there was some rest, and it was essentially the next day. I've never seen anyone be hardcore about this rule. Yes, I enforce it as a DM, the three games I'm playing in as a player online right now enforce it, and all of the face to face games I've been in enforce it. You must have 8 hours of rest, or you don't get your spells, period. Otherwise, you get horrible abuses, such as the Ring of Sustanence, or worse yet, an Elemental Savant. The ES becomes an elemental creature. Elementals don't sleep, they don't need to. An Elemental Savant does not require sleep, and possibly not even food, but they would still need 8 hours of downtime to get their spells back.
Raist27m 12-17-03, 09:51 AM	Originally posted by Edymnion Yes, I enforce it as a DM, the three games I'm playing in as a player online right now enforce it, and all of the face to face games I've been in enforce it. You must have 8 hours of rest, or you don't get your spells, period. Otherwise, you get horrible abuses, such as the Ring of Sustanence, or worse yet, an Elemental Savant. The ES becomes an elemental creature. Elementals don't sleep, they don't need to. An Elemental Savant does not require sleep, and possibly not even food, but they would still need 8 hours of downtime to get their spells back. I've never seen it strictly enforced. Yes, I require 8 hours of rest, but if it's interrupted at night by an attacking orc or something, I don't make them wait until 8 hours after that attack. I've never seen anyone else do it either.
Kyaran 12-17-03, 11:18 AM	Originally posted by Raist27m if it's interrupted at night by an attacking orc or something, I don't make them wait until 8 hours after that attack. I've never seen anyone else do it either. That's because you don't wait another 8 hours. Each interruption adds one hour to the total required. This is on the same page (PHB 177) that talks about characters still needing 8 hours of rest even if they don't need to sleep.
Lady Mia 12-17-03, 04:31 PM	I agree with the others. They clearly state that its Mental Rest not Physical Rest that a wizard needs to refresh her spell casting alotment. Many races and devices remove the need for physical rest or reduce the need as in the case of the elf. In this case you still need 8 hours of rest so that you can get the required Mental Rest. There is only one exception I have found. The Ring of Sustenance clearly states that it refreshes you both Physically AND Mentally as if you had a full 8 hours on only 2 hours of sleep. So if you have that one particular item you can refresh spells with only 3 uninterrupted hours. To my knowledge this is the only item that states this benefit. Its a nice tool for a wizard... but I have found in practice the group rarely sits in one spot for the 3 hours needed unless they are camping. The biggest benifit of the device seems to be that its much harder to interrupt your sleep if the group does stop to camp. After all you get interrupted less in 3 hours than you will in 9 hours.
Aranael 12-17-03, 04:53 PM	I agree entirely about what everyone else has said regarding the Rules (how can anyone not, they Are the rules, after all), but Not about their rationalization. When it describes the Elves, it specifically says that they Trance, a series of Mental exercises that in essence provide the benefits of 8 hours of sleep. Now, if you know anything about sleep mechanics, the issue with sleep is Rarely entirely physical. Your body Does need some down time, otherwise you wear yourself out, but you get the same physical benefits from just sitting restlessly. It is the mental processes, the chemicals that need replenishment and removal, and all of the things involving the Brain, that truly require Sleep, not just rest. Now, when elves Trance, they Get the mental requirements. All arguments about “relaxation” are then null, since the elves Just Did the Mental part. That is what Trance is. The ruling that they need 8 hours of rest, then, is a purely mechanical thing, meant to preserve balance. You could also argue that well, then, they need to refresh their Bodies, through down time longer than 4 hours, in order to do it. If that were the case, they would be fatigued unless they rested 8 hours a day, even though they only need 4 to refresh their minds. There is no “realistic” reason that they should need 8 hours, other than to Not make them any better of Arcane Spellcasters than Humans and other races, or eliminate abuses with Rings of Sustenance etc. Now, personally, I partly find this unsatisfying. It seems dumb, that someone needs to just Sit there for 4 hours after their mind is fully rested before their mind is ready to do the work required to memorize spells. Or better yet, someone just got the benefits of 8 hours of sleep, but their minds need more Rest, another 6 hours, in fact, which is to be gotten while they waste a quarter of the day pointlessly. To bring it down to the lowest common denominator, as it were, seems rather dumb to me. Personally, then, I handle it like this (note- this is Purely a house rule, everyone else has already given the rules as they stand). If they want to rest for less than 8 hours, fine. If they rest 2 hours a night, so be it, though they suffer fatigue if not everyone can go with that little. As to resting in the middle of the day every so often, or worse just the Wizard doing so, I only allow them to prepare new spells once per day. Per Day. So, in my campaign, not even resting for 8 hours in the middle of a dungeon to renew spells works, you Must wait it out for the next day. How do I justify this to myself? In part, looking at Clerics, and how they prepare them at a certain time every day, drawing inferences from that, looking at the rules for preparing spells mid day, and how any slots that you Did Not Prepare you can fill, though Not any slots that are empty since you cast spells in the last day, etc. Mostly, though, it is purely a balance issue still, just one that I and my players are more comfortable with. When the entire party sits around for 6 hours a day doing nothing but waiting for the Arcane spellcasters to be ready to move, purely because of a mechanics rule, it is time for something to change, IMHO. So long as you don’t let it be abused, why not?