"Free Play" - Evil Campaign Advice [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Free Play" - Evil Campaign Advice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Grimmoloth
05-12-07, 05:41 PM I have a DM that lets us "free play" , which is we go around doing what we want. In mine we are too be bandits, we aren't yet. We do what we want and he makes scenarios to accommodate us. So we don't do a mission but more like small things that overall make a big story or just live the life!

So thats what free play is, In my campaign as i mentioned earlier we are bandits. At higher levels bandits wouldn't be much fun. I predict that we will have a lot of money and a few followers. So i was wondering if you guys had any ideas what to do. I was thinking about something like sky pirates but i'd would appreciate your input, of what to do beyond bandits. Any ideas would help.
Sunic_Flames
05-12-07, 05:51 PM Well first off what type of evil we talking here? Both in terms of the other side of the alignment and in terms of specifics regarding the characters?
Grimmoloth
05-12-07, 06:00 PM More of being completely selfish with no moral bounds. I guess if we want we could help people but we ask/take something in return.
taradusis
05-12-07, 06:07 PM Infiltrate and/or destroy a theives guild.Following bagmen as they make pickups and steal their loot.Collect bounties on on criminals you know without people finding out.Find a chain gang of slaves,beat up the slavers and sell them along with the other slaves?Discover a new drug and set up a network to produce and sell it.Become assassins.RANDOM THOUGHTS
BlackWeasel
05-12-07, 06:45 PM Tryand take control of thieves guilds, maybe a gang war sort of thing between the guilds hired killers and you. Take over a small country
Yanagita Kunio
05-12-07, 07:07 PM Start an organization or enterprise that suits your skillsets and utter lack of morals. There are always "gap industries" that take care of the stuff that lawful/moral societies don't want to deal with, or don't want to admit to having a demand for.

Alternately, you could make a bid to tear down the existing social structure and supplant it; as bandits you're already halfway there.

Once y'all start pursuing such goals, your DM will have more data from which to improvise obstacles, opponents, et cetera, for your group. I won't give specifics, since I don't know your group's play style or interests.

More generally, as evil PCs you have to be a bit more proactive--you have to either go out and make work for yourself or find people that need evil flunkies (since there's rarely a stable employment grid for evil flunkies). Of course, a lot will hinge on if your evil characters are capable/sane enough to cooperate periodically in a I-stratch-your-back, you-stratch-mine way relative to their individual selfish, greedy pursuits.
LadyAlaria
05-12-07, 07:59 PM The line between bandit and lord is quite fine. David, King of Israel, started out as a bandit preying on the Philistines (and the Hebrews, most likely). History overflows with other examples. And if you like the bandit life, you'll *love* the life of the noble ruler, who controls both justice and taxation.

Keep your eye out for an isolated barony that could be bought or conquered. Or enter the service of an embattled Lord, and betray him at the proper time. Then get ready to play politics with the local dukes and kings. Can you convince the King to formally legitimize your possession, given your lack of noble heritage? Can you purchase a title from a down-and-out count? What of rival lords who either resent you as usurpers, have their own designs on your lands, or want to recruit you to their factions? And how loyal to your new liege will you be?

Banditry is *easy* compared to all that.
Maekrix_Waere
05-13-07, 02:51 AM Bandits? Your DM lets you play Evil aligned characters, and the best you can think of is bandits?

Seriously...you need to be more creative...(:P)

Don't get me wrong, banditry is all well and good but, well...like the rogue says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0158.html), it isn't the best thing to do.

Good 'ol assassination and dungeon crawling would be the way to go until you can start annihilating towns with JUST the party, and have a Metropolis where you can use your misbegotten wealth without penalty. Call it banditry if you will, but banidts usually don't destroy towns and take their good, they just raid them, take some of their goods, and then run away.

Killing that many low-level NPC's probably won't give you any EXP, so make sure that you spend some time between conquering to kill some things of appropriate CR so that by the time to law enforcement gets there (mid-level paladins at first, varying sized groups of Inevitables will be likely later, though) they won't stand a chance against you.

Finally, I would make sure you have at least one Cleric of Afflux with the Deathbound Domain (Libris Mortis) with you so you can animate any really vicious creatures you meet as Undead and have him awaken (Spell Compendium "Awaken Undead", not the Libris Mortis one) the best ones you find (Awakened Hydra Unkillable Zombies FTW) so that later you can conquer Small Kingdoms relatively easily.
Toloran
05-13-07, 02:51 AM Oh, and ALWAYS remember: Possesion is 9/10ths of the law :)

EDIT: And no, I don't mean the demonic kind.
Sunic_Flames
05-13-07, 11:12 AM More of being completely selfish with no moral bounds. I guess if we want we could help people but we ask/take something in return.

Oh good, that would be my area of expertise.

Note: Advice assumes Lawful Evil, the other types I'm not familar enough with to properly comment on.

First off, bandits are more often neutral than evil, so not really a good example, nor is it very creative.

Second, keep in mind evil is proactive, whereas good is reactive. So you'll have to find your fun, not wait for it to come to you.

Third, LE works well with others with similar goals, and if played right can appear LG to non magical detection as you seem to be good people but are really only doing good things for your own benefit (and evil things out of the public eye).

Here's a decent example of what I mean.

Under an assumed identity, get some monsters or monsterous creatures to attack a town. Then when they ask for assistance, play the hero and eliminate them without asking for payment, but knowing you'll get it anyways. (and if you don't know you'll get it anyways, leave them to their fate then take advantage of a power vacuum or something that would result from this) Now your public image is that of a hero, you get your fame and fortune, and you've eliminated those that could potentially betray you.

Some options for things you can do:

Mercenary company, assassin guild, running a town (and corrupting it)... Likely more than 1 of the above in combination.

Necromancy fits well, make a huge army of undead and start conquering things, or keep them in reserve to deal with your enemies...

Make sure to ally yourself with those that have similar goals that can be useful to you, find a use for as many people as possible. Even paladins, your likely sworn enemies can be your pawns if they are decieved into thinking you're good.

Psion (telepaths), Beguilers, Sorcerers/Wizards with lots of enchantment and so forth is another way, control the populace utterly, one mind at a time. The psions especially make very good LE characters. And chances are the actions of your thralls cannot be tied to you, which again allows for that hero appearence that keeps those pesky paladins away.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Grimmoloth
05-13-07, 11:39 AM Sorry to disappoint you all but i found out a few more things about my DM. We are not TOTALLY evil, like i previously thought. We are CN for the most part. (Ex. Attacks slavers to set slaves free and take slavers to sell at market.) So when we are not totally evil we aren't total good either. Umm, What i meant more or less was the likes of what can Bandits specifically (i like bandits :D, because i like to be outlaws and have forts :D ) at higher levels with the money. I liked the idea of LadyAlaria and that bandits and Lords are closely related. (Ex. Have a small barony and run it to steal from other small barons) Any more ideas like that?

Also out whole party if warrior based so we don't have any spell casters, though i do have a six-teen int so we all aren't dumb. So just for more information to base you ideas off of.
Maekrix_Waere
05-13-07, 02:16 PM All Warriors? No Spells?

My Prediction if the DM plays it HOW HE SHOULD:

You will be the average group of bandits, marauding around the countryside. Once you do enough damage, the kingdom/fiefdom/etc. will get so ****** off they will hire a group of adventurers to take you down. Likely, a Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard/Sorceror; maybe even with an accompanying Paladin.

They will find you easily, and will probably defeat you even easier, though you might take one or two of them down with you. Probably the Rogue and the Fighter, though the Cleric will probably prevent them from dying.

Those of you who survive will be tried and executed.

So ends another episode of TPK theatre, brought to you by the Four Fighter Party. See you next week, same TPK time, same TPK channel.

:P :D :P :D :P :D :P :D
Sunic_Flames
05-13-07, 03:44 PM All Warriors? No Spells?

My Prediction if the DM plays it HOW HE SHOULD:

You will be the average group of bandits, marauding around the countryside. Once you do enough damage, the kingdom/fiefdom/etc. will get so ****** off they will hire a group of adventurers to take you down. Likely, a Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard/Sorceror; maybe even with an accompanying Paladin.

They will find you easily, and will probably defeat you even easier, though you might take one or two of them down with you. Probably the Rogue and the Fighter, though the Cleric will probably prevent them from dying.

Those of you who survive will be tried and executed.

So ends another episode of TPK theatre, brought to you by the Four Fighter Party. See you next week, same TPK time, same TPK channel.

:P :D :P :D :P :D :P :D

:rofl: Or four CoDzillas. :rofl:

But seriously though. It does seem a bit... low aspirations.
Maekrix_Waere
05-13-07, 08:09 PM :rofl: Or four CoDzillas. :rofl:

But seriously though. It does seem a bit... low aspirations.

They haven't made any offences against nature, and I doubt that 4 Clerics of sufficient level could be arsed to go all the way down there to own some bloody bandits...
Grimmoloth
05-14-07, 06:35 AM So i guess you all don't like my party? Well prob hire a mercenary or two like Cleric r wizard now you mention it. Is there anyone with positive advice on it? :mad: :D
Sunic_Flames
05-14-07, 07:40 AM They haven't made any offences against nature, and I doubt that 4 Clerics of sufficient level could be arsed to go all the way down there to own some bloody bandits...

If they're robbing people, they're probably gonna end up accidently nailing some traveling druids or clerics by accident sooner or later... *shrugs*
Maekrix_Waere
05-15-07, 12:26 AM If they're robbing people, they're probably gonna end up accidently nailing some traveling druids or clerics by accident sooner or later... *shrugs*

Theres a big difference between a group of bandits qualified to mug travelers and a group of bandits qualified to raid a village.

As village raiding (IF PLANNED OUT) is often the more profitable, they would probably do that.

Still, unless they started genociding against a particular religion, or started burning up the forest, they won't have to worry about a group of FOUR CoDzillas. They might run into one or two by chance, but not four.
Carwyn_Nhung
05-15-07, 12:31 PM So i guess you all don't like my party? Well prob hire a mercenary or two like Cleric r wizard now you mention it. Is there anyone with positive advice on it? :mad: :D

Don't take it personally; there's a running obsession on this boards with the comparative power of spell-casters. Don't include them if you don't want to, although their power will make things "easier". :rolleye2: To be honest I'd bandit for a bit but tell my DM I'm on the lookout for sources of ultimate power, if he happens to know of any, and hope he starts dropping hints. From then on I'd start trying to build a basic power base to get a chance at the prize. From there I imagine the game would start to shift into overland Dungeon Keeper, with added devious plotting. I'd read some good fantasy to get my imagination going, although some childrens fantasy actually does the basics better; they can't get too grotesque, so their villains have to switch to plotting!
Maekrix_Waere
05-15-07, 07:05 PM Don't take it personally; there's a running obsession on this boards with the comparative power of spell-casters. Don't include them if you don't want to, although their power will make things "easier". :rolleye2: To be honest I'd bandit for a bit but tell my DM I'm on the lookout for sources of ultimate power, if he happens to know of any, and hope he starts dropping hints. From then on I'd start trying to build a basic power base to get a chance at the prize. From there I imagine the game would start to shift into overland Dungeon Keeper, with added devious plotting. I'd read some good fantasy to get my imagination going, although some childrens fantasy actually does the basics better; they can't get too grotesque, so their villains have to switch to plotting!

The problem isn't comparative power, it is versatility. A group of four Fighters have a maximum of 6 attack types to choose from:
Melee Slashing
Melee Bludgeoning
Melee Piercing
Ranged/Reach Slashing
Ranged/Reach Bludgeoning
Ranged/Reach Piercing

A balanced group (Fighter, Rogue, Arcane Spellcaster, Divine Spellcaster) will have closer to 40 attack types:
(All those listed above)
Ranged Energy (Fire, Sonic, Cold, Positive, Electricity, Negative, Acid, Unnamed)
Melee Energy (Fire, Sonic, Cold, Positive, Electricity, Negative, Acid, Unnamed)
AOE Ranged Energy (Primarily Fire, but also the others)
Charm
Necromancy
Healing
Illusion
Stealth
Etc.

Thats 34 right there, and I could find more if you want me to.

Spellcasters are there for versatility, something their group will lack...unless they get a caster or a bunch of scrolls/wands (which, as fighters, they probably cannot use properly).

When it comes to power levels, yes, Spellcasters are much more powerful at higher levels (unless you use the ToB:BotNS) but their main strength is still versatility.

Edit:IMHO-Anyone considering the Fighter Class should instead eaither take Barbarian or ask to use classes from the ToB:BotNS. At least the barbarian gets some shiny class features, and can qualify for Frenzied Berzerker, which is just plain mean.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grimmoloth 05-12-07, 05:41 PM	I have a DM that lets us "free play" , which is we go around doing what we want. In mine we are too be bandits, we aren't yet. We do what we want and he makes scenarios to accommodate us. So we don't do a mission but more like small things that overall make a big story or just live the life! So thats what free play is, In my campaign as i mentioned earlier we are bandits. At higher levels bandits wouldn't be much fun. I predict that we will have a lot of money and a few followers. So i was wondering if you guys had any ideas what to do. I was thinking about something like sky pirates but i'd would appreciate your input, of what to do beyond bandits. Any ideas would help.
Sunic_Flames 05-12-07, 05:51 PM	Well first off what type of evil we talking here? Both in terms of the other side of the alignment and in terms of specifics regarding the characters?
Grimmoloth 05-12-07, 06:00 PM	More of being completely selfish with no moral bounds. I guess if we want we could help people but we ask/take something in return.
taradusis 05-12-07, 06:07 PM	Infiltrate and/or destroy a theives guild.Following bagmen as they make pickups and steal their loot.Collect bounties on on criminals you know without people finding out.Find a chain gang of slaves,beat up the slavers and sell them along with the other slaves?Discover a new drug and set up a network to produce and sell it.Become assassins.RANDOM THOUGHTS
BlackWeasel 05-12-07, 06:45 PM	Tryand take control of thieves guilds, maybe a gang war sort of thing between the guilds hired killers and you. Take over a small country
Yanagita Kunio 05-12-07, 07:07 PM	Start an organization or enterprise that suits your skillsets and utter lack of morals. There are always "gap industries" that take care of the stuff that lawful/moral societies don't want to deal with, or don't want to admit to having a demand for. Alternately, you could make a bid to tear down the existing social structure and supplant it; as bandits you're already halfway there. Once y'all start pursuing such goals, your DM will have more data from which to improvise obstacles, opponents, et cetera, for your group. I won't give specifics, since I don't know your group's play style or interests. More generally, as evil PCs you have to be a bit more proactive--you have to either go out and make work for yourself or find people that need evil flunkies (since there's rarely a stable employment grid for evil flunkies). Of course, a lot will hinge on if your evil characters are capable/sane enough to cooperate periodically in a I-stratch-your-back, you-stratch-mine way relative to their individual selfish, greedy pursuits.
LadyAlaria 05-12-07, 07:59 PM	The line between bandit and lord is quite fine. David, King of Israel, started out as a bandit preying on the Philistines (and the Hebrews, most likely). History overflows with other examples. And if you like the bandit life, you'll love the life of the noble ruler, who controls both justice and taxation. Keep your eye out for an isolated barony that could be bought or conquered. Or enter the service of an embattled Lord, and betray him at the proper time. Then get ready to play politics with the local dukes and kings. Can you convince the King to formally legitimize your possession, given your lack of noble heritage? Can you purchase a title from a down-and-out count? What of rival lords who either resent you as usurpers, have their own designs on your lands, or want to recruit you to their factions? And how loyal to your new liege will you be? Banditry is easy compared to all that.
Maekrix_Waere 05-13-07, 02:51 AM	Bandits? Your DM lets you play Evil aligned characters, and the best you can think of is bandits? Seriously...you need to be more creative...(:P) Don't get me wrong, banditry is all well and good but, well...like the rogue says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0158.html), it isn't the best thing to do. Good 'ol assassination and dungeon crawling would be the way to go until you can start annihilating towns with JUST the party, and have a Metropolis where you can use your misbegotten wealth without penalty. Call it banditry if you will, but banidts usually don't destroy towns and take their good, they just raid them, take some of their goods, and then run away. Killing that many low-level NPC's probably won't give you any EXP, so make sure that you spend some time between conquering to kill some things of appropriate CR so that by the time to law enforcement gets there (mid-level paladins at first, varying sized groups of Inevitables will be likely later, though) they won't stand a chance against you. Finally, I would make sure you have at least one Cleric of Afflux with the Deathbound Domain (Libris Mortis) with you so you can animate any really vicious creatures you meet as Undead and have him awaken (Spell Compendium "Awaken Undead", not the Libris Mortis one) the best ones you find (Awakened Hydra Unkillable Zombies FTW) so that later you can conquer Small Kingdoms relatively easily.
Toloran 05-13-07, 02:51 AM	Oh, and ALWAYS remember: Possesion is 9/10ths of the law :) EDIT: And no, I don't mean the demonic kind.
Sunic_Flames 05-13-07, 11:12 AM	More of being completely selfish with no moral bounds. I guess if we want we could help people but we ask/take something in return. Oh good, that would be my area of expertise. Note: Advice assumes Lawful Evil, the other types I'm not familar enough with to properly comment on. First off, bandits are more often neutral than evil, so not really a good example, nor is it very creative. Second, keep in mind evil is proactive, whereas good is reactive. So you'll have to find your fun, not wait for it to come to you. Third, LE works well with others with similar goals, and if played right can appear LG to non magical detection as you seem to be good people but are really only doing good things for your own benefit (and evil things out of the public eye). Here's a decent example of what I mean. Under an assumed identity, get some monsters or monsterous creatures to attack a town. Then when they ask for assistance, play the hero and eliminate them without asking for payment, but knowing you'll get it anyways. (and if you don't know you'll get it anyways, leave them to their fate then take advantage of a power vacuum or something that would result from this) Now your public image is that of a hero, you get your fame and fortune, and you've eliminated those that could potentially betray you. Some options for things you can do: Mercenary company, assassin guild, running a town (and corrupting it)... Likely more than 1 of the above in combination. Necromancy fits well, make a huge army of undead and start conquering things, or keep them in reserve to deal with your enemies... Make sure to ally yourself with those that have similar goals that can be useful to you, find a use for as many people as possible. Even paladins, your likely sworn enemies can be your pawns if they are decieved into thinking you're good. Psion (telepaths), Beguilers, Sorcerers/Wizards with lots of enchantment and so forth is another way, control the populace utterly, one mind at a time. The psions especially make very good LE characters. And chances are the actions of your thralls cannot be tied to you, which again allows for that hero appearence that keeps those pesky paladins away. That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Grimmoloth 05-13-07, 11:39 AM	Sorry to disappoint you all but i found out a few more things about my DM. We are not TOTALLY evil, like i previously thought. We are CN for the most part. (Ex. Attacks slavers to set slaves free and take slavers to sell at market.) So when we are not totally evil we aren't total good either. Umm, What i meant more or less was the likes of what can Bandits specifically (i like bandits :D, because i like to be outlaws and have forts :D ) at higher levels with the money. I liked the idea of LadyAlaria and that bandits and Lords are closely related. (Ex. Have a small barony and run it to steal from other small barons) Any more ideas like that? Also out whole party if warrior based so we don't have any spell casters, though i do have a six-teen int so we all aren't dumb. So just for more information to base you ideas off of.
Maekrix_Waere 05-13-07, 02:16 PM	All Warriors? No Spells? My Prediction if the DM plays it HOW HE SHOULD: You will be the average group of bandits, marauding around the countryside. Once you do enough damage, the kingdom/fiefdom/etc. will get so ****** off they will hire a group of adventurers to take you down. Likely, a Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard/Sorceror; maybe even with an accompanying Paladin. They will find you easily, and will probably defeat you even easier, though you might take one or two of them down with you. Probably the Rogue and the Fighter, though the Cleric will probably prevent them from dying. Those of you who survive will be tried and executed. So ends another episode of TPK theatre, brought to you by the Four Fighter Party. See you next week, same TPK time, same TPK channel. :P :D :P :D :P :D :P :D
Sunic_Flames 05-13-07, 03:44 PM	All Warriors? No Spells? My Prediction if the DM plays it HOW HE SHOULD: You will be the average group of bandits, marauding around the countryside. Once you do enough damage, the kingdom/fiefdom/etc. will get so ****** off they will hire a group of adventurers to take you down. Likely, a Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard/Sorceror; maybe even with an accompanying Paladin. They will find you easily, and will probably defeat you even easier, though you might take one or two of them down with you. Probably the Rogue and the Fighter, though the Cleric will probably prevent them from dying. Those of you who survive will be tried and executed. So ends another episode of TPK theatre, brought to you by the Four Fighter Party. See you next week, same TPK time, same TPK channel. :P :D :P :D :P :D :P :D :rofl: Or four CoDzillas. :rofl: But seriously though. It does seem a bit... low aspirations.
Maekrix_Waere 05-13-07, 08:09 PM	:rofl: Or four CoDzillas. :rofl: But seriously though. It does seem a bit... low aspirations. They haven't made any offences against nature, and I doubt that 4 Clerics of sufficient level could be arsed to go all the way down there to own some bloody bandits...
Grimmoloth 05-14-07, 06:35 AM	So i guess you all don't like my party? Well prob hire a mercenary or two like Cleric r wizard now you mention it. Is there anyone with positive advice on it? :mad: :D
Sunic_Flames 05-14-07, 07:40 AM	They haven't made any offences against nature, and I doubt that 4 Clerics of sufficient level could be arsed to go all the way down there to own some bloody bandits... If they're robbing people, they're probably gonna end up accidently nailing some traveling druids or clerics by accident sooner or later... shrugs
Maekrix_Waere 05-15-07, 12:26 AM	If they're robbing people, they're probably gonna end up accidently nailing some traveling druids or clerics by accident sooner or later... shrugs Theres a big difference between a group of bandits qualified to mug travelers and a group of bandits qualified to raid a village. As village raiding (IF PLANNED OUT) is often the more profitable, they would probably do that. Still, unless they started genociding against a particular religion, or started burning up the forest, they won't have to worry about a group of FOUR CoDzillas. They might run into one or two by chance, but not four.
Carwyn_Nhung 05-15-07, 12:31 PM	So i guess you all don't like my party? Well prob hire a mercenary or two like Cleric r wizard now you mention it. Is there anyone with positive advice on it? :mad: :D Don't take it personally; there's a running obsession on this boards with the comparative power of spell-casters. Don't include them if you don't want to, although their power will make things "easier". :rolleye2: To be honest I'd bandit for a bit but tell my DM I'm on the lookout for sources of ultimate power, if he happens to know of any, and hope he starts dropping hints. From then on I'd start trying to build a basic power base to get a chance at the prize. From there I imagine the game would start to shift into overland Dungeon Keeper, with added devious plotting. I'd read some good fantasy to get my imagination going, although some childrens fantasy actually does the basics better; they can't get too grotesque, so their villains have to switch to plotting!
Maekrix_Waere 05-15-07, 07:05 PM	Don't take it personally; there's a running obsession on this boards with the comparative power of spell-casters. Don't include them if you don't want to, although their power will make things "easier". :rolleye2: To be honest I'd bandit for a bit but tell my DM I'm on the lookout for sources of ultimate power, if he happens to know of any, and hope he starts dropping hints. From then on I'd start trying to build a basic power base to get a chance at the prize. From there I imagine the game would start to shift into overland Dungeon Keeper, with added devious plotting. I'd read some good fantasy to get my imagination going, although some childrens fantasy actually does the basics better; they can't get too grotesque, so their villains have to switch to plotting! The problem isn't comparative power, it is versatility. A group of four Fighters have a maximum of 6 attack types to choose from: Melee Slashing Melee Bludgeoning Melee Piercing Ranged/Reach Slashing Ranged/Reach Bludgeoning Ranged/Reach Piercing A balanced group (Fighter, Rogue, Arcane Spellcaster, Divine Spellcaster) will have closer to 40 attack types: (All those listed above) Ranged Energy (Fire, Sonic, Cold, Positive, Electricity, Negative, Acid, Unnamed) Melee Energy (Fire, Sonic, Cold, Positive, Electricity, Negative, Acid, Unnamed) AOE Ranged Energy (Primarily Fire, but also the others) Charm Necromancy Healing Illusion Stealth Etc. Thats 34 right there, and I could find more if you want me to. Spellcasters are there for versatility, something their group will lack...unless they get a caster or a bunch of scrolls/wands (which, as fighters, they probably cannot use properly). When it comes to power levels, yes, Spellcasters are much more powerful at higher levels (unless you use the ToB:BotNS) but their main strength is still versatility. Edit:IMHO-Anyone considering the Fighter Class should instead eaither take Barbarian or ask to use classes from the ToB:BotNS. At least the barbarian gets some shiny class features, and can qualify for Frenzied Berzerker, which is just plain mean.