"I shall smite thee, demon, in four-part harmony!" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"I shall smite thee, demon, in four-part harmony!" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wall
12-03-06, 09:01 PM I have what is probably one of the weirdest paladin connundrums to crop up on these boards. And please, correct me if I'm wrong.

So I want to play a paladin. Okay, not that weird. Now, I have the book Frostburn. I absolutely love this book, and want to get as much use out of it as I can. In Frostburn, there are a variety of feats for - strangely - paladins.

So I want to play a paladin of the frost. That could be pretty fun, right?

But for some reason, the following idea kicked in:

"I should... multiclass... as a bard!"

Wait. What? A bard? Yes, a bard.
For those of you with Complete Adventurer, you know the feat Devoted Performer? Likely involving that.

So in total, here is what I am going for: A multiclass Paladin/Bard of the frost. A fair amount of requirements, though probably not enough considering the build-up I gave it! [Long winded intros... I am so prone to these things.]

As for the race, I am thinking human, but am willing to change that if needed.

With such an odd combination, obviously I have a few questions.

1) Not really about the character design, but does Devoted Performer continue to improve Smite damage?

2) I'm obviously going to take some of the feats from Frostburn, namely Smite Fiery Foe and Champion of Winter. Are there other feats I could take to make the character better, while retaining the flavor? The character doesn't have a set weapon or fighting style as of yet.

3) Would this combination of classes have any particular strengths? Weaknesses? I can figure I'd have some pretty great Saving Throws.

4) What about bard spells? Any particular spells worthwhile?

5) In general, how could I make this character worthwhile? I'm not looking for some "uber-extreme" combination of abilities, just some way to make the character worth playing.

Thanks in advance for the help!
DFoster
12-03-06, 09:38 PM The only way you can be both a Bard and a Paladin is if you take all the Bard levels you want first, and then level up in Paladin. This is because the Bard requires a non-lawful alignment however if you become lawful you can still use your abilities, and the Paladin requires you to be Lawful-Good otherwise you lose your powers, also the Paladin cannot multiclass freely.

This might be different with the Paladin of Frost but I doubt it.
Wall
12-03-06, 09:41 PM I guess I should have noted that. Yes, the first level would be in bard. Thankfully, that "Devoted Performer" feat allows you to multiclass between the two, as long as you stay Lawful Good.

The frost part of this is really a secondary thing... it's more the Bard/Paladin combo I'm wondering about (Though any way to keep it "frosty" would be great).
Elemental_Elf
12-03-06, 09:58 PM I think the greatest strength of the class combo is that CHA is so very important to both of the classes. Many fun multi-class combos simply don't share their most important stat. Also the ability to switch from "Smite thou" to playing a lute, helping your allies is very fun and unexpectedly useful. It also alleviates many player's trepidation when adventuring with a Paladin.

The greatest weakness of the build is finding the right mix between Paladin and Bard levels. A Bard/Paladin plays very differently compared to a Paladin/Bard. I believe the crux of this dilemma boils down to this question: How much do you want to do as a bard. You definitely want 3 levels of both classes, but beyond that it really depends on how much you want to do as a Bard. Do you want more skills and Spells or do you want to be more martial and take less Bard levels?
Prak, the Mad
12-03-06, 10:09 PM There's also the feat "Knight Training" in Dragon Magazine #330

Knight Training
You are part of a knightly order that combines the divine calling of the paladin class with another form of training.
Benefit: Pick one class. Taking levels in this class does not prevent you from taking paladin levels. If you take levels in any other class, you lose your ability to progress as a paladin as usual. If the selected class also has restricted advancement, such as the monk class, taking paladin levels does not prevent you form advancing in that class.

as for the Bard alignment restriction, I think enough variant classes have been made to prove that alignment restrictions have no affect on balance. I suggest talking to your DM about the idiocy of the bard alignment restriction.
green_yawgmoth
12-04-06, 02:39 AM I suggest talking to your DM about the idiocy of alignment restriction.
Fixed for me. There's absolutely no point in them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Callista
12-04-06, 03:18 AM I think there are bard classes out there for Lawful performers... think herald, dedicated musician, or maybe a member of an orchestra. I'm not sure where, exactly they are, only that they exist, because I asked the same question a couple of years ago on another forum.

uhh... yeah, that probably doesn't help much. Sorry. But good luck on that character--sounds like a decent concept.
draco1119
12-04-06, 03:38 AM Another option would be to go with Paladin of Freedom (Unearthed Arcana) instead of "normal" Paladin. Alignment is CG, so no problems with being a bard, and you're still eligible for Devoted Performer. As for race, I would recommend human, half-elf, or aasimar. Humans and half-elves don't have a favored class, while the aasimar's favored class is paladin, so you won't have to worry about an XP penalty.
InterSilva
12-04-06, 04:11 AM Aasimar (Aasimars? Aasimari?) also get that nice CHA boost. I think Planetouched are some of the best LA +1 races out there.
draco1119
12-04-06, 04:13 AM Aasimar (Aasimars? Aasimari?) also get that nice CHA boost. I think Planetouched are some of the best LA +1 races out there.
Yup. Forgot to mention that little tidbit, didn't I? +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom. VERY handy for a paladin.
Rolof
12-04-06, 10:22 AM Catfolk also get a +2 charisma with a +1 LA...and a +4 dex.

You might want to consider snowflake wardance; it lets you stack dex and str
on attacks...IF you're wearing light armor with no shield, and at the cost of a
use of bardic music.

Since you won't have as many skill points as a full bard, you also might want
to consider versatile performer from Complete Adventurer; it lets you treat a
number of perform/x skills as if you had the same amount of ranks in them as
your best perform/x skill, also a +2 performance bonus if you mix two different
perform skills (like singing and playing an instrument at the same time).
Lakaniss
12-04-06, 10:40 AM Well i dont know for the rules, but in one of the greatest quest i ever played, i multiclassed Paladin after i was Lv6 Bard. This really was not expected but in the whole game my Bard really changed and learned a lot. He became a Paladin of Bahamut and lately became a Platinum Knight. Having 25 Cha at lv 22 whit Divine Grace and Bahamut Grace give your saves a fair boost ;)
Chrono Nexus
12-04-06, 01:16 PM Use your music as a weapon...
Buy a +1 vorpal guitar, and make your character paladin crusader for good- his high charisma and performance abilities would grant him rock star status. Throw in the leadership feat, and you have yourself a celebrity.
I love this character concept.
Bowmore
12-04-06, 02:03 PM Did anyone else instantly thing of Tenacious D's "Wonderboy" song when they read the title of this thread?
Chrono Nexus
12-04-06, 02:06 PM Did anyone else instantly thing of Tenacious D's "Wonderboy" song when they read the title of this thread?
Of course. :)
...................... :rimshot: :mage: :censored:
:invasion::invasion::invasion:
Prak, the Mad
12-04-06, 03:28 PM Did anyone else instantly thing of Tenacious D's "Wonderboy" song when they read the title of this thread?

yeah. Also the Pick of destiny.
Wall
12-04-06, 04:23 PM Thanks for the advice, all!

As funny as it is, I have to say that any Tenacious D references are completely unintentional.

So let's see. I'll take the advice and either go with Human or Aasimar (completely forgot about them).

I initially considered going with Paladin of Freedom, but I don't play Lawful characters often (a.k.a. once) so i thought this would be a nice change of pace.

As for how many Bard/Paladin levels... I was actually thinking of balancing it out, trying to stay about even with both classes.

Still trying to figure out what perform skills and weapon style to use...

Sing and a Two-Hander, maybe?
GaffeR
12-04-06, 04:33 PM As far as the Bard Pal goes, Devoted Perfomer and Initiate of Milil (Champions of Valor) give you pseudo-scaling bardic music. Bard 4/Paladin 16 is quite popular over on the CharOp boards. Throw in power attack and sing your heart out. Human or 0LA aasimar.
trapspringer
12-04-06, 05:58 PM Fixed for me. There's absolutely no point in them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif

The test agrees.
Elemental_Elf
12-04-06, 09:19 PM Perform (Oratory) might be a better fit for a Paladin/Bard, but any vocal Perform skill would do quite nicely.

I wonder though, can Perform (Kazoo) be used w/o any hands? :P
High Octane
12-04-06, 09:33 PM as for the Bard alignment restriction, I think enough variant classes have been made to prove that alignment restrictions have no affect on balance. I suggest talking to your DM about the idiocy of the bard alignment restriction.

Interesting, but not the issue. How does smite evil work in those circumstances? Since the paladin is one of the few classes where the alignment issue actually has a mechanical effect, I would suggest not trying to change all THAT along with it, at least not now.

The character idea is grand though. Bardic hero of the winterlands...
Mecha_Pope
12-04-06, 10:47 PM I'd personaly like to see an alternate bard with no arcane casting, do you think a hd bump and more armor profs would do it? I've alway's wanted a kind of commander or squad musicion type class, with like perform oritory or perform drum or piccalo!
Iry
12-05-06, 12:53 AM There is a feat for Paladins that turns their Smite Evil into Inspire Courage, usable a number of times per day equal to their Smite Evil progression with a morale bonus increasing as they level up.

Add that onto Human Paragon instead of Bard and you'll pick up +2 to a stat, keep Perform as a class skill in all classes, have a good selection of alternate class skills, and a bonus feat.
Kazeofwinds
12-05-06, 12:17 PM Take Perform(Heavy Metal) and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (FLCL Guitar), and bash people with your guitar as part of the perform skill.

Paladin of Metal, anyone?

Note: I've already got an agreement with my DM that I'm playing this next campaign, we're treating my guitar as a warhammer. (I'm going to probably be a bard/whatever that PrC with 9th level spells for bards is)
trapspringer
12-05-06, 01:08 PM I'd personaly like to see an alternate bard with no arcane casting, do you think a hd bump and more armor profs would do it? I've alway's wanted a kind of commander or squad musicion type class, with like perform oritory or perform drum or piccalo!

There is a variant in UA for a divine bard.

A bard that cannot cast spells would be a rogue.

If you want to have access to bardic music, someone mentioned a paladin varient (or feat, IDK), that lets you convert smite to inspire. There is also a prestige class in complete warrior and a coupel of alternative base classes scattered about that give you abilities identical in function with different names.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wall 12-03-06, 09:01 PM	I have what is probably one of the weirdest paladin connundrums to crop up on these boards. And please, correct me if I'm wrong. So I want to play a paladin. Okay, not that weird. Now, I have the book Frostburn. I absolutely love this book, and want to get as much use out of it as I can. In Frostburn, there are a variety of feats for - strangely - paladins. So I want to play a paladin of the frost. That could be pretty fun, right? But for some reason, the following idea kicked in: "I should... multiclass... as a bard!" Wait. What? A bard? Yes, a bard. For those of you with Complete Adventurer, you know the feat Devoted Performer? Likely involving that. So in total, here is what I am going for: A multiclass Paladin/Bard of the frost. A fair amount of requirements, though probably not enough considering the build-up I gave it! [Long winded intros... I am so prone to these things.] As for the race, I am thinking human, but am willing to change that if needed. With such an odd combination, obviously I have a few questions. 1) Not really about the character design, but does Devoted Performer continue to improve Smite damage? 2) I'm obviously going to take some of the feats from Frostburn, namely Smite Fiery Foe and Champion of Winter. Are there other feats I could take to make the character better, while retaining the flavor? The character doesn't have a set weapon or fighting style as of yet. 3) Would this combination of classes have any particular strengths? Weaknesses? I can figure I'd have some pretty great Saving Throws. 4) What about bard spells? Any particular spells worthwhile? 5) In general, how could I make this character worthwhile? I'm not looking for some "uber-extreme" combination of abilities, just some way to make the character worth playing. Thanks in advance for the help!
DFoster 12-03-06, 09:38 PM	The only way you can be both a Bard and a Paladin is if you take all the Bard levels you want first, and then level up in Paladin. This is because the Bard requires a non-lawful alignment however if you become lawful you can still use your abilities, and the Paladin requires you to be Lawful-Good otherwise you lose your powers, also the Paladin cannot multiclass freely. This might be different with the Paladin of Frost but I doubt it.
Wall 12-03-06, 09:41 PM	I guess I should have noted that. Yes, the first level would be in bard. Thankfully, that "Devoted Performer" feat allows you to multiclass between the two, as long as you stay Lawful Good. The frost part of this is really a secondary thing... it's more the Bard/Paladin combo I'm wondering about (Though any way to keep it "frosty" would be great).
Elemental_Elf 12-03-06, 09:58 PM	I think the greatest strength of the class combo is that CHA is so very important to both of the classes. Many fun multi-class combos simply don't share their most important stat. Also the ability to switch from "Smite thou" to playing a lute, helping your allies is very fun and unexpectedly useful. It also alleviates many player's trepidation when adventuring with a Paladin. The greatest weakness of the build is finding the right mix between Paladin and Bard levels. A Bard/Paladin plays very differently compared to a Paladin/Bard. I believe the crux of this dilemma boils down to this question: How much do you want to do as a bard. You definitely want 3 levels of both classes, but beyond that it really depends on how much you want to do as a Bard. Do you want more skills and Spells or do you want to be more martial and take less Bard levels?
Prak, the Mad 12-03-06, 10:09 PM	There's also the feat "Knight Training" in Dragon Magazine #330 Knight Training You are part of a knightly order that combines the divine calling of the paladin class with another form of training. Benefit: Pick one class. Taking levels in this class does not prevent you from taking paladin levels. If you take levels in any other class, you lose your ability to progress as a paladin as usual. If the selected class also has restricted advancement, such as the monk class, taking paladin levels does not prevent you form advancing in that class. as for the Bard alignment restriction, I think enough variant classes have been made to prove that alignment restrictions have no affect on balance. I suggest talking to your DM about the idiocy of the bard alignment restriction.
green_yawgmoth 12-04-06, 02:39 AM	I suggest talking to your DM about the idiocy of alignment restriction. Fixed for me. There's absolutely no point in them. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Callista 12-04-06, 03:18 AM	I think there are bard classes out there for Lawful performers... think herald, dedicated musician, or maybe a member of an orchestra. I'm not sure where, exactly they are, only that they exist, because I asked the same question a couple of years ago on another forum. uhh... yeah, that probably doesn't help much. Sorry. But good luck on that character--sounds like a decent concept.
draco1119 12-04-06, 03:38 AM	Another option would be to go with Paladin of Freedom (Unearthed Arcana) instead of "normal" Paladin. Alignment is CG, so no problems with being a bard, and you're still eligible for Devoted Performer. As for race, I would recommend human, half-elf, or aasimar. Humans and half-elves don't have a favored class, while the aasimar's favored class is paladin, so you won't have to worry about an XP penalty.
InterSilva 12-04-06, 04:11 AM	Aasimar (Aasimars? Aasimari?) also get that nice CHA boost. I think Planetouched are some of the best LA +1 races out there.
draco1119 12-04-06, 04:13 AM	Aasimar (Aasimars? Aasimari?) also get that nice CHA boost. I think Planetouched are some of the best LA +1 races out there. Yup. Forgot to mention that little tidbit, didn't I? +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom. VERY handy for a paladin.
Rolof 12-04-06, 10:22 AM	Catfolk also get a +2 charisma with a +1 LA...and a +4 dex. You might want to consider snowflake wardance; it lets you stack dex and str on attacks...IF you're wearing light armor with no shield, and at the cost of a use of bardic music. Since you won't have as many skill points as a full bard, you also might want to consider versatile performer from Complete Adventurer; it lets you treat a number of perform/x skills as if you had the same amount of ranks in them as your best perform/x skill, also a +2 performance bonus if you mix two different perform skills (like singing and playing an instrument at the same time).
Lakaniss 12-04-06, 10:40 AM	Well i dont know for the rules, but in one of the greatest quest i ever played, i multiclassed Paladin after i was Lv6 Bard. This really was not expected but in the whole game my Bard really changed and learned a lot. He became a Paladin of Bahamut and lately became a Platinum Knight. Having 25 Cha at lv 22 whit Divine Grace and Bahamut Grace give your saves a fair boost ;)
Chrono Nexus 12-04-06, 01:16 PM	Use your music as a weapon... Buy a +1 vorpal guitar, and make your character paladin crusader for good- his high charisma and performance abilities would grant him rock star status. Throw in the leadership feat, and you have yourself a celebrity. I love this character concept.
Bowmore 12-04-06, 02:03 PM	Did anyone else instantly thing of Tenacious D's "Wonderboy" song when they read the title of this thread?
Chrono Nexus 12-04-06, 02:06 PM	Did anyone else instantly thing of Tenacious D's "Wonderboy" song when they read the title of this thread? Of course. :) ...................... :rimshot: :mage: :censored: :invasion::invasion::invasion:
Prak, the Mad 12-04-06, 03:28 PM	Did anyone else instantly thing of Tenacious D's "Wonderboy" song when they read the title of this thread? yeah. Also the Pick of destiny.
Wall 12-04-06, 04:23 PM	Thanks for the advice, all! As funny as it is, I have to say that any Tenacious D references are completely unintentional. So let's see. I'll take the advice and either go with Human or Aasimar (completely forgot about them). I initially considered going with Paladin of Freedom, but I don't play Lawful characters often (a.k.a. once) so i thought this would be a nice change of pace. As for how many Bard/Paladin levels... I was actually thinking of balancing it out, trying to stay about even with both classes. Still trying to figure out what perform skills and weapon style to use... Sing and a Two-Hander, maybe?
GaffeR 12-04-06, 04:33 PM	As far as the Bard Pal goes, Devoted Perfomer and Initiate of Milil (Champions of Valor) give you pseudo-scaling bardic music. Bard 4/Paladin 16 is quite popular over on the CharOp boards. Throw in power attack and sing your heart out. Human or 0LA aasimar.
trapspringer 12-04-06, 05:58 PM	Fixed for me. There's absolutely no point in them. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif The test agrees.
Elemental_Elf 12-04-06, 09:19 PM	Perform (Oratory) might be a better fit for a Paladin/Bard, but any vocal Perform skill would do quite nicely. I wonder though, can Perform (Kazoo) be used w/o any hands? :P
High Octane 12-04-06, 09:33 PM	as for the Bard alignment restriction, I think enough variant classes have been made to prove that alignment restrictions have no affect on balance. I suggest talking to your DM about the idiocy of the bard alignment restriction. Interesting, but not the issue. How does smite evil work in those circumstances? Since the paladin is one of the few classes where the alignment issue actually has a mechanical effect, I would suggest not trying to change all THAT along with it, at least not now. The character idea is grand though. Bardic hero of the winterlands...
Mecha_Pope 12-04-06, 10:47 PM	I'd personaly like to see an alternate bard with no arcane casting, do you think a hd bump and more armor profs would do it? I've alway's wanted a kind of commander or squad musicion type class, with like perform oritory or perform drum or piccalo!
Iry 12-05-06, 12:53 AM	There is a feat for Paladins that turns their Smite Evil into Inspire Courage, usable a number of times per day equal to their Smite Evil progression with a morale bonus increasing as they level up. Add that onto Human Paragon instead of Bard and you'll pick up +2 to a stat, keep Perform as a class skill in all classes, have a good selection of alternate class skills, and a bonus feat.
Kazeofwinds 12-05-06, 12:17 PM	Take Perform(Heavy Metal) and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (FLCL Guitar), and bash people with your guitar as part of the perform skill. Paladin of Metal, anyone? Note: I've already got an agreement with my DM that I'm playing this next campaign, we're treating my guitar as a warhammer. (I'm going to probably be a bard/whatever that PrC with 9th level spells for bards is)
trapspringer 12-05-06, 01:08 PM	I'd personaly like to see an alternate bard with no arcane casting, do you think a hd bump and more armor profs would do it? I've alway's wanted a kind of commander or squad musicion type class, with like perform oritory or perform drum or piccalo! There is a variant in UA for a divine bard. A bard that cannot cast spells would be a rogue. If you want to have access to bardic music, someone mentioned a paladin varient (or feat, IDK), that lets you convert smite to inspire. There is also a prestige class in complete warrior and a coupel of alternative base classes scattered about that give you abilities identical in function with different names.