"Machine Gun" rogue (or lack of) [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Machine Gun" rogue (or lack of) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pwolf
11-10-07, 03:59 PM Turns out I had to make a new char by friday (yesterday) so i spent my only time off during the week making one. I was looking at some forums (this one included) for some rogue ideas and came across the Machine Gun rouge concept. I've always wanted to make a thrower.

Anyway, i spent a good couple of hours which cut into my "i need to be sleeping now cause i have work in the morning" time. I show up to the session and we get started (tired from lack of sleep the night before and working all day). I start to realize that this kind of character is flawed...

At current, he is able to throw 10 daggers as a full attack (5 attack rolls, 2 daggers per). After asking the DM how many daggers i could have on me within "easy reach", he said 10 (according to the rules, you can only draw a weapon if it is within "easy reach", otherwise you have to treat it as retrieving a stored item). That pretty much means, i can get off one round of attacks, but then i have to spend 8 more rounds just to restock my supply of daggers from my bag of holding (two of them are +1 Returning).

After informing my DM of my situation and being completely discouraged that i need to remake my char again (after all the time i put into it already) he said to just play him as i thought he was meant to be played, then do some research as to how other players/DMs would deal with it. Then of course rework the char so he works (if i need to)...

SO! How would everyone else deal this? Is the way everything is setup right now (one round of attacks, 8 more to restock) the way it should be, or do most DMs count retrieving daggers and other similar items (darts, shirukens) from a pack as "drawing" a weapon?
ArgulFraster
11-10-07, 04:11 PM I had an Elven Ranger in a pseudo-Oriental game my friend made-and to this day, Omitamaru Ousaki's Throwing Shiruken of Returning can make him cry. I could throw seven a round-and they kept coming back. I would have kept using them forever if I had remembered I had enough money to get them all made +1. Hell, I had my own city at 7th level and a gold dragon for a friend-how blind could I have been?

Next level. Mr. Ousaki is taking the Multithrow feat. :devil:
taradusis
11-10-07, 05:57 PM 1)Consider more arms?A thri-keen or character with a permanent Giralions blessing?2)Ask the Dm if he would consider belts with multiple sheathes,like bandoliers for bullets?3)If you carried small size daggers could you carry more?
Pwolf
11-10-07, 06:05 PM 1)Consider more arms?A thri-keen or character with a permanent Giralions blessing?2)Ask the Dm if he would consider belts with multiple sheathes,like bandoliers for bullets?3)If you carried small size daggers could you carry more?

DM said i could only have a max of 10 daggers within easy reach via bandoleers and other straps. Later changed it to 20 but that still only allows for 2 rounds of attacks.
Etarnon
11-10-07, 06:08 PM In the old days, our rogues got by with:

A short sword.

Surprise.

One attack.

Back stab for Double Damage.

Things sure have changed. :)
KillerVole
11-10-07, 06:23 PM There's an item in the DMG, the Quiver of Ehlonna if I recall correctly, that hold TONS of arrows, javelins, etc. and lets you draw anything from it as from a normal sheathe. As in, quickdraw works.

Ah, here it is. From the SRD: Efficient Quiver: This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about twenty arrows. It has three distinct portions, each with a nondimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible. The first and smallest one can contain up to sixty objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. The second slightly longer compartment holds up to eighteen objects of the same general size and shape as a javelin. The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as six objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staffs, or the like). Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard. The efficient quiver weighs the same no matter what’s placed inside it.
Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Price 1,800 gp;Weight 2 lb.

See if daggers count as "the same general size and shape as an arrow". If they do, your problem is solved. If necessary, buy a few quivers, for even more storage capacity.
taradusis
11-10-07, 06:24 PM I once invented an Everfull Sheath for a knife thrower.This sheathe would create a new dagger every time you threw one and the daggers would dissolve after six rounds.Could you pull new bandoliers out of a backpack and put them on?
Nightshade
11-10-07, 06:33 PM KillerVole has the answer:
Quiver of Elhonna + Quickdraw feat = machine gun rogue. Just need to keep track of the number of daggers cause even the Quiver will reach a max eventually.
Pwolf
11-10-07, 06:36 PM There's an item in the DMG, the Quiver of Ehlonna if I recall correctly, that hold TONS of arrows, javelins, etc. and lets you draw anything from it as from a normal sheathe. As in, quickdraw works.

I did look at that as a consideration but without "Dagger" being in the list of possible items, i don't think my DM will let me use it like that. He's very literal to the point were if it makes sense to him the way <i>he</i> reads it, thats how it is. Granted, i'll give him the benefit of the doubt, sometimes he doesn't read or get the entire text read to him. In which case his view point may change.

However, i will add that to my list when i present him my findings.
Pwolf
11-10-07, 06:36 PM KillerVole has the answer:
Quiver of Elhonna + Quickdraw feat = machine gun rogue. Just need to keep track of the number of daggers cause even the Quiver will reach a max eventually.

I always keep track of ammunition, so thats not an issue.
Hack and Smasher
11-10-07, 06:49 PM Consider bandoleers, multiple dagger holsters on your belt 6 or so, daggers in your boots, one on each arm, and some over shoulder holsters and some more on your back. And some gloves of storing, also theres a braclet which lets you store small item in magic item compendium.
Cartigan
11-10-07, 06:49 PM KillerVole has the answer:
Quiver of Elhonna + Quickdraw feat = machine gun rogue. Just need to keep track of the number of daggers cause even the Quiver will reach a max eventually.
The quiver can't store daggers as it meets none of the compartment restrictions; however, there is the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades.
Pwolf
11-10-07, 07:02 PM Consider bandoleers, multiple dagger holsters on your belt 6 or so, daggers in your boots, one on each arm, and some over shoulder holsters and some more on your back. And some gloves of storing, also theres a braclet which lets you store small item in magic item compendium.

DM said i could only have a max of 10 daggers within easy reach via bandoleers and other straps. Later changed it to 20 but that still only allows for 2 rounds of attacks.

Gloves of storing only let you hold one item and im sure the bracelet will do the same(will have to look). so thats only 2 extra daggers... still have to spend another 6 rounds getting 6 more daggers to make another full attack. after which, i will have to spend 8 rounds to restock. good idea, but not very helpful still.
Pwolf
11-10-07, 07:05 PM The quiver can't store daggers as it meets none of the compartment restrictions; however, there is the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades.

GoIB = swift action to activate. free dagger is nice, but it's only one per round. was thinking of getting these anyway because of the other ability.
IceFractal
11-11-07, 03:26 AM I believe what you need is a Tenser's Floating Disc. It can hold a large number of daggers conveniently next to you. So, get a wand or custom item of TFD. Activate the disc, pour a bag of daggers onto it, and voila - lots of daggers in easy reach.

Also, the spell Unseen Servant Horde, from PHB II, could be of help here. It makes a large number of Unseen Servants, each of which could carry a couple bandoleers of daggers and replace yours when needed. You might still have to put them on yourself, but it would be reduced to one round to restock 20 daggers instead of 10 rounds.
Pwolf
11-11-07, 03:43 AM I believe what you need is a Tenser's Floating Disc. It can hold a large number of daggers conveniently next to you. So, get a wand or custom item of TFD. Activate the disc, pour a bag of daggers onto it, and voila - lots of daggers in easy reach.

Also, the spell Unseen Servant Horde, from PHB II, could be of help here. It makes a large number of Unseen Servants, each of which could carry a couple bandoleers of daggers and replace yours when needed. You might still have to put them on yourself, but it would be reduced to one round to restock 20 daggers instead of 10 rounds.

those are good ideas, thanks.
DrMorganes
11-11-07, 08:31 AM First, what level are you? This will have a major impact on whether the advice we give is actually applicable.

Have you taken a look at the halfling prestige class from Races of the Wild? The name escapes me at the moment, but it's one hekuva thrower.

If you DM won't allow you to store daggers in an Efficient Quiver, ask him if he'll allow you to purchase a custom magic item that does the same thing, but only holds daggers. Same cost, same max capacity, but just holds daggers. I'd allow it, but you're not playing in my game ;)
molten_dragon
11-11-07, 11:10 AM Here are some options I could think of. None of them are necessarily perfect, but they might help some.

1. Get a heward's handy haversack. You can pull something out as a move action, so you could pull 2 daggers per round, not really what you're looking for, but it's something.

2. I'm not really sure how the "machine gun rogue" concept works, but if you could throw javelins instead of daggers, there are the Gloves of Endless Javelins in the magic item compendium. You can make endless +1 javelins which only last 1 round. Activation is a free action so you can make as many as you need per round.

3. Alternatively, if your DM would let you, maybe you could get a custom crafted magic item that would do the same thing as the Gloves of Endless Javelins but make daggers instead.
Crash_00
11-11-07, 11:54 AM It shouldn't be that hard to create the dagger equivalent of the quiver of ehlonna. Just talk to you DM about it, if he's a decent DM he'll work with you on it. If he's not, make a new character that will fit with his world.
Pwolf
11-11-07, 01:11 PM First, what level are you? This will have a major impact on whether the advice we give is actually applicable.

Have you taken a look at the halfling prestige class from Races of the Wild? The name escapes me at the moment, but it's one hekuva thrower.

If you DM won't allow you to store daggers in an Efficient Quiver, ask him if he'll allow you to purchase a custom magic item that does the same thing, but only holds daggers. Same cost, same max capacity, but just holds daggers. I'd allow it, but you're not playing in my game ;)

lvl 14. I'll ask about making a custom item. That seems like the best alternative for a QoE/EQ. I have a feeling he'll increase the price of it tho.
Voran
11-11-07, 05:13 PM lvl 14. I'll ask about making a custom item. That seems like the best alternative for a QoE/EQ. I have a feeling he'll increase the price of it tho.

Level 14. How'd he get so many attacks in the first place?
Pwolf
11-11-07, 05:25 PM Level 14. How'd he get so many attacks in the first place?

BaB 13 + two weapon fighting + improved two weapon fighting = 5 attacks. Palm throw trick from Master Thrower lets you throw two daggers per attack roll. So 10 daggers.
Raynx
11-11-07, 05:36 PM Okay, has anyone bothered to look at mundane items yet?
The Arms & Equipment Guide can actually prove useful here. Seriously.
Check out the "Wrist Sheath" and "Boot Sheath", amongst others.
We once had a level five gnome rogue/ninja/assassin/ghost-faced-killer who paid particular attention to the way that he was dressed, resulting in 62 weapons concealed on his body with which he could actually utilize Quickdraw.
Interestingly enough, however, he never took the "Machine-Gun" path. He was content with the idea of just always having a dagger or shuriken on hand. 42 daggers and 20 shuriken, to be precise.

Also, I like the idea of a Javelin Rogue. May have to work this out. Master Thrower levels, that Endless Javelin magic item thing, Efficient/Ehlonna's Quiver... Yeah, that's nice.
Pwolf
11-11-07, 08:23 PM DM says i can have Gloves of endless daggers (Gloves of Endless Javelins remake). Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, very much appreciated.
katarl
11-12-07, 03:07 PM Could the daggers not be returning/teleporting? It's only a +1 enhancement, and if you have 5 attacks, you'll definitely be able to afford 10 +1 returning daggers (83,020gp).
doomXL
11-13-07, 06:53 PM cool I wanna character like that...*gets shifty eyed and takes photos of build*
HCL
11-13-07, 08:40 PM take some tinker levels and make a knife dispenser :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pwolf 11-10-07, 03:59 PM	Turns out I had to make a new char by friday (yesterday) so i spent my only time off during the week making one. I was looking at some forums (this one included) for some rogue ideas and came across the Machine Gun rouge concept. I've always wanted to make a thrower. Anyway, i spent a good couple of hours which cut into my "i need to be sleeping now cause i have work in the morning" time. I show up to the session and we get started (tired from lack of sleep the night before and working all day). I start to realize that this kind of character is flawed... At current, he is able to throw 10 daggers as a full attack (5 attack rolls, 2 daggers per). After asking the DM how many daggers i could have on me within "easy reach", he said 10 (according to the rules, you can only draw a weapon if it is within "easy reach", otherwise you have to treat it as retrieving a stored item). That pretty much means, i can get off one round of attacks, but then i have to spend 8 more rounds just to restock my supply of daggers from my bag of holding (two of them are +1 Returning). After informing my DM of my situation and being completely discouraged that i need to remake my char again (after all the time i put into it already) he said to just play him as i thought he was meant to be played, then do some research as to how other players/DMs would deal with it. Then of course rework the char so he works (if i need to)... SO! How would everyone else deal this? Is the way everything is setup right now (one round of attacks, 8 more to restock) the way it should be, or do most DMs count retrieving daggers and other similar items (darts, shirukens) from a pack as "drawing" a weapon?
ArgulFraster 11-10-07, 04:11 PM	I had an Elven Ranger in a pseudo-Oriental game my friend made-and to this day, Omitamaru Ousaki's Throwing Shiruken of Returning can make him cry. I could throw seven a round-and they kept coming back. I would have kept using them forever if I had remembered I had enough money to get them all made +1. Hell, I had my own city at 7th level and a gold dragon for a friend-how blind could I have been? Next level. Mr. Ousaki is taking the Multithrow feat. :devil:
taradusis 11-10-07, 05:57 PM	1)Consider more arms?A thri-keen or character with a permanent Giralions blessing?2)Ask the Dm if he would consider belts with multiple sheathes,like bandoliers for bullets?3)If you carried small size daggers could you carry more?
Pwolf 11-10-07, 06:05 PM	1)Consider more arms?A thri-keen or character with a permanent Giralions blessing?2)Ask the Dm if he would consider belts with multiple sheathes,like bandoliers for bullets?3)If you carried small size daggers could you carry more? DM said i could only have a max of 10 daggers within easy reach via bandoleers and other straps. Later changed it to 20 but that still only allows for 2 rounds of attacks.
Etarnon 11-10-07, 06:08 PM	In the old days, our rogues got by with: A short sword. Surprise. One attack. Back stab for Double Damage. Things sure have changed. :)
KillerVole 11-10-07, 06:23 PM	There's an item in the DMG, the Quiver of Ehlonna if I recall correctly, that hold TONS of arrows, javelins, etc. and lets you draw anything from it as from a normal sheathe. As in, quickdraw works. Ah, here it is. From the SRD: Efficient Quiver: This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about twenty arrows. It has three distinct portions, each with a nondimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible. The first and smallest one can contain up to sixty objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. The second slightly longer compartment holds up to eighteen objects of the same general size and shape as a javelin. The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as six objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staffs, or the like). Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard. The efficient quiver weighs the same no matter what’s placed inside it. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Price 1,800 gp;Weight 2 lb. See if daggers count as "the same general size and shape as an arrow". If they do, your problem is solved. If necessary, buy a few quivers, for even more storage capacity.
taradusis 11-10-07, 06:24 PM	I once invented an Everfull Sheath for a knife thrower.This sheathe would create a new dagger every time you threw one and the daggers would dissolve after six rounds.Could you pull new bandoliers out of a backpack and put them on?
Nightshade 11-10-07, 06:33 PM	KillerVole has the answer: Quiver of Elhonna + Quickdraw feat = machine gun rogue. Just need to keep track of the number of daggers cause even the Quiver will reach a max eventually.
Pwolf 11-10-07, 06:36 PM	There's an item in the DMG, the Quiver of Ehlonna if I recall correctly, that hold TONS of arrows, javelins, etc. and lets you draw anything from it as from a normal sheathe. As in, quickdraw works. I did look at that as a consideration but without "Dagger" being in the list of possible items, i don't think my DM will let me use it like that. He's very literal to the point were if it makes sense to him the way <i>he</i> reads it, thats how it is. Granted, i'll give him the benefit of the doubt, sometimes he doesn't read or get the entire text read to him. In which case his view point may change. However, i will add that to my list when i present him my findings.
Pwolf 11-10-07, 06:36 PM	KillerVole has the answer: Quiver of Elhonna + Quickdraw feat = machine gun rogue. Just need to keep track of the number of daggers cause even the Quiver will reach a max eventually. I always keep track of ammunition, so thats not an issue.
Hack and Smasher 11-10-07, 06:49 PM	Consider bandoleers, multiple dagger holsters on your belt 6 or so, daggers in your boots, one on each arm, and some over shoulder holsters and some more on your back. And some gloves of storing, also theres a braclet which lets you store small item in magic item compendium.
Cartigan 11-10-07, 06:49 PM	KillerVole has the answer: Quiver of Elhonna + Quickdraw feat = machine gun rogue. Just need to keep track of the number of daggers cause even the Quiver will reach a max eventually. The quiver can't store daggers as it meets none of the compartment restrictions; however, there is the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades.
Pwolf 11-10-07, 07:02 PM	Consider bandoleers, multiple dagger holsters on your belt 6 or so, daggers in your boots, one on each arm, and some over shoulder holsters and some more on your back. And some gloves of storing, also theres a braclet which lets you store small item in magic item compendium. DM said i could only have a max of 10 daggers within easy reach via bandoleers and other straps. Later changed it to 20 but that still only allows for 2 rounds of attacks. Gloves of storing only let you hold one item and im sure the bracelet will do the same(will have to look). so thats only 2 extra daggers... still have to spend another 6 rounds getting 6 more daggers to make another full attack. after which, i will have to spend 8 rounds to restock. good idea, but not very helpful still.
Pwolf 11-10-07, 07:05 PM	The quiver can't store daggers as it meets none of the compartment restrictions; however, there is the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades. GoIB = swift action to activate. free dagger is nice, but it's only one per round. was thinking of getting these anyway because of the other ability.
IceFractal 11-11-07, 03:26 AM	I believe what you need is a Tenser's Floating Disc. It can hold a large number of daggers conveniently next to you. So, get a wand or custom item of TFD. Activate the disc, pour a bag of daggers onto it, and voila - lots of daggers in easy reach. Also, the spell Unseen Servant Horde, from PHB II, could be of help here. It makes a large number of Unseen Servants, each of which could carry a couple bandoleers of daggers and replace yours when needed. You might still have to put them on yourself, but it would be reduced to one round to restock 20 daggers instead of 10 rounds.
Pwolf 11-11-07, 03:43 AM	I believe what you need is a Tenser's Floating Disc. It can hold a large number of daggers conveniently next to you. So, get a wand or custom item of TFD. Activate the disc, pour a bag of daggers onto it, and voila - lots of daggers in easy reach. Also, the spell Unseen Servant Horde, from PHB II, could be of help here. It makes a large number of Unseen Servants, each of which could carry a couple bandoleers of daggers and replace yours when needed. You might still have to put them on yourself, but it would be reduced to one round to restock 20 daggers instead of 10 rounds. those are good ideas, thanks.
DrMorganes 11-11-07, 08:31 AM	First, what level are you? This will have a major impact on whether the advice we give is actually applicable. Have you taken a look at the halfling prestige class from Races of the Wild? The name escapes me at the moment, but it's one hekuva thrower. If you DM won't allow you to store daggers in an Efficient Quiver, ask him if he'll allow you to purchase a custom magic item that does the same thing, but only holds daggers. Same cost, same max capacity, but just holds daggers. I'd allow it, but you're not playing in my game ;)
molten_dragon 11-11-07, 11:10 AM	Here are some options I could think of. None of them are necessarily perfect, but they might help some. 1. Get a heward's handy haversack. You can pull something out as a move action, so you could pull 2 daggers per round, not really what you're looking for, but it's something. 2. I'm not really sure how the "machine gun rogue" concept works, but if you could throw javelins instead of daggers, there are the Gloves of Endless Javelins in the magic item compendium. You can make endless +1 javelins which only last 1 round. Activation is a free action so you can make as many as you need per round. 3. Alternatively, if your DM would let you, maybe you could get a custom crafted magic item that would do the same thing as the Gloves of Endless Javelins but make daggers instead.
Crash_00 11-11-07, 11:54 AM	It shouldn't be that hard to create the dagger equivalent of the quiver of ehlonna. Just talk to you DM about it, if he's a decent DM he'll work with you on it. If he's not, make a new character that will fit with his world.
Pwolf 11-11-07, 01:11 PM	First, what level are you? This will have a major impact on whether the advice we give is actually applicable. Have you taken a look at the halfling prestige class from Races of the Wild? The name escapes me at the moment, but it's one hekuva thrower. If you DM won't allow you to store daggers in an Efficient Quiver, ask him if he'll allow you to purchase a custom magic item that does the same thing, but only holds daggers. Same cost, same max capacity, but just holds daggers. I'd allow it, but you're not playing in my game ;) lvl 14. I'll ask about making a custom item. That seems like the best alternative for a QoE/EQ. I have a feeling he'll increase the price of it tho.
Voran 11-11-07, 05:13 PM	lvl 14. I'll ask about making a custom item. That seems like the best alternative for a QoE/EQ. I have a feeling he'll increase the price of it tho. Level 14. How'd he get so many attacks in the first place?
Pwolf 11-11-07, 05:25 PM	Level 14. How'd he get so many attacks in the first place? BaB 13 + two weapon fighting + improved two weapon fighting = 5 attacks. Palm throw trick from Master Thrower lets you throw two daggers per attack roll. So 10 daggers.
Raynx 11-11-07, 05:36 PM	Okay, has anyone bothered to look at mundane items yet? The Arms & Equipment Guide can actually prove useful here. Seriously. Check out the "Wrist Sheath" and "Boot Sheath", amongst others. We once had a level five gnome rogue/ninja/assassin/ghost-faced-killer who paid particular attention to the way that he was dressed, resulting in 62 weapons concealed on his body with which he could actually utilize Quickdraw. Interestingly enough, however, he never took the "Machine-Gun" path. He was content with the idea of just always having a dagger or shuriken on hand. 42 daggers and 20 shuriken, to be precise. Also, I like the idea of a Javelin Rogue. May have to work this out. Master Thrower levels, that Endless Javelin magic item thing, Efficient/Ehlonna's Quiver... Yeah, that's nice.
Pwolf 11-11-07, 08:23 PM	DM says i can have Gloves of endless daggers (Gloves of Endless Javelins remake). Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, very much appreciated.
katarl 11-12-07, 03:07 PM	Could the daggers not be returning/teleporting? It's only a +1 enhancement, and if you have 5 attacks, you'll definitely be able to afford 10 +1 returning daggers (83,020gp).
doomXL 11-13-07, 06:53 PM	cool I wanna character like that...gets shifty eyed and takes photos of build
HCL 11-13-07, 08:40 PM	take some tinker levels and make a knife dispenser :)