Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adrian_Crane 01-16-07, 05:12 PM	This is the type of thing that I think is better suited for a DM to answer, but it's a player problem so I put it here. I'm intending to progress my character as a gish, an arcane/melee hybrid. I want to go into Knight Phantom, which allows casting in light armor with no ASF, and take Battle Caster to boost myself up to medium armor. The feat prereq is "ability to ignore ASF from armor." However, I enter Knight Phantom at 7th level (Ftr 1/Wiz 5 start), right after I've already spent my 6th level feat. Would it be reasonable to ask my DM if I can spend my level 6 feat on Battle Caster in advance to boost my survivability when I *do* get Knight Phantom, instead of having to wait until level 9 to take it? Could I even make a case for being allowed to cast in light armor during level 6? I know the second one's reaching, but I thought I'd see how most players and dungeon masters would look at such a request.
Zherog 01-16-07, 05:16 PM	I'm a pretty lenient DM, and I wouldn't allow it as you don't meet the pre-reqs at 6th level.
Totentanz 01-16-07, 05:26 PM	So you want to take a feat and not get any benefit from it until you get the level of the class? I'd be okay with that. Now RAW, you can't take a feat you don't qualify for. However, in your case I don't see it being particularly abusive. I wouldn't let you cast in light armor at 6th with just a feat. That would slippery-slope its way right into every wizard wearing a belt of giant-strength and fullplate.
DarkRhystar 01-16-07, 06:08 PM	Can I break the rules to have a more powerful character? No.
Garble Willowwits 01-16-07, 06:16 PM	I'm with Totentanz on this one. It doesn't look like too much of a gamebreaker. The alternative would be scouring around for a feat that would ALSO be useful until you can grab it at level 9.
Cifer 01-16-07, 07:07 PM	Sorry, doesn't work that way.
nightwyrm 01-16-07, 07:19 PM	Do you have to take a feat when you get one? Is it against the rules to let a feat go unfilled for a level or two? In any case, talk with your dm. He might not allow you to use the feat before you get the class ability, but I doubt it's unreasonable to hold the feat open till you get your new class.
allenchan 01-16-07, 07:25 PM	You can take feats you cant use yet (such as metamagic feats), but you must still meet the prerequisites necessary. ps:Yes, you must take a feat when you receive one, otherwise high-level chars would save up and just take epic feats, etc.
nightwyrm 01-16-07, 07:35 PM	You can take feats you cant use yet (such as metamagic feats), but you must still meet the prerequisites necessary. ps:Yes, you must take a feat when you receive one, otherwise high-level chars would save up and just take epic feats, etc. Oh, I guess that makes sense. Never thought about it that way since I never got around to playing anything pass lv 8.
Moon-Lancer 01-16-07, 07:57 PM	my dm has a pritty nice house rule that deals with this. You can bump a feat by one level and only one level, and only one feat at a time. You can also only do this once though. he dident ask what was possible or if it was by the book, or raw or anything. he asked if it was reasonable and i think it is.
Adrian_Crane 01-16-07, 08:14 PM	I know it's against RAW. I do realize that the big drawback is it potentially allows for getting an extra "high level" feat into the build, but I plan to put in a couple vanilla metamagic selections anyways after I get the basics down. Empower/Quicken Spell, for instance--highly useful, but I'm just trying to see if it's within reason to get this "core concept" feat in a bit earlier, and take the fluffier metamagic after my build's fleshed out. Thanks for the replies, good to have a variety of different opinions. And yeah, I knew the second part was seeeeeriously reaching :D
Ace_of_Diamonds 01-16-07, 09:21 PM	I personally don't think it's reasonable. A whole is the sum of all its parts. To make an example, a 20th-level character is the end result of a progression from 1-20. What I see behind your question is that you're willing to gimp yourself now in exchange for being more powerful later. To me, that rather ruins the point of a proper level progression. I hope that made sense.
Adrian_Crane 01-16-07, 09:29 PM	It ends up being, I gimp myself for one level (6, when I can't use the feat), I'm more powerful for two (7 and 8, before I could normally get it), and then it hits dead even at 9.
Ace_of_Diamonds 01-16-07, 09:38 PM	It ends up being, I gimp myself for one level (6, when I can't use the feat), I'm more powerful for two (7 and 8, before I could normally get it), and then it hits dead even at 9. At first glance, yes. However, I personally do not feel you have broken dead even at 9, because by pre-selecting a feat you do not qualify for at the time you are taking it, despite not being able to use it until you do gain the prerequisites, you have upset the level progression of your character.
Adrian_Crane 01-16-07, 09:46 PM	Hm, true enough. Which is why I asked for input, I wanted to see how different people react to the idea. I can take the feat at 9th, just thought I'd get a read on how people view it.
Ace_of_Diamonds 01-16-07, 09:47 PM	Hm, true enough. Which is why I asked for input, I wanted to see how different people react to the idea. I can take the feat at 9th, just thought I'd get a read on how people view it. Indeed, so you have my personal view on it. Of course, the view that ultimately matters is the view of your DM. I just hope mine helped.
Archangel_James 01-17-07, 12:30 AM	It's against the rules, but it's reasonable. Better this than some unreasonable yet technically legal optimization. I'd let you do it.
Cifer 01-17-07, 06:32 PM	It ends up being, I gimp myself for one level (6, when I can't use the feat), I'm more powerful for two (7 and 8, before I could normally get it), and then it hits dead even at 9. But the feat you take at level 9 is not the one you would take at level 6 if you couldn't take the one you wanted, is it? Further, imagine an epic game. Players start at level 21 and everyone selects his 8 feats. If they could say they delayed them until level 21, you'd suddenly have 8 epic feats. See the difference?
Illithid_Tentacles 01-17-07, 08:01 PM	Feats have things called prerequisites. pre·req·ui·site –adjective 1. required beforehand:
Garble Willowwits 01-18-07, 11:11 AM	Then simply limit yourself to the feats you could take at 7th level when you take your 9th level feat. Has your DM decided yet? Because then it's all a moot point.
gorckat 01-18-07, 11:30 AM	Then simply limit yourself to the feats you could take at 7th level when you take your 9th level feat. Has your DM decided yet? Because then it's all a moot point. I was just thinking the same thing, although I might even ask for that feat to be chosen now, as well, so its locked in.
Krusk 01-18-07, 12:47 PM	A lot of Dm's will let players, within reason, hold onto feats until they level up once. My current dm, just says "write Feat TBA" on your character sheet. Of course you have to check with him first, and im sure if it were "I want to save for all epic feats" no dm would ever let you do it. unless you were playing 1-20+X. Id let a player, "so you want to be terrible for the first 3 years of gaming, and then suddenly get amazing? sure, you better hope it lasts that long."
Johnny_Angel 01-18-07, 03:26 PM	I wouldn't allow it if I were the DM, but your DM has the final say.
Garble Willowwits 01-18-07, 03:50 PM	I was just thinking the same thing, although I might even ask for that feat to be chosen now, as well, so its locked in. Brilliant. I hadn't thought of that. Any idea when it will all be decided?
archerpwr 01-18-07, 08:26 PM	actually at the cost of medium and heavy armor proficiency you could have spellcasting in armor its a any class that grants medium and heavy armor proficiency alternative feature from somewhere and in exchange for only light armor you get to cast spells from one class without ASF in light armor btw this is the RAW way to take the feat at your lvl only problem is it might negate the need for the PrC and would force another feat (medium armor prof) in order for casting in mithral fullplate to work