Post/Author/DateTime	Post
edgelett 07-28-04, 09:14 PM	OK, some of you are familiar with the DM I whine about, some aren't. I currently play in a game in which my BF is the DM. There were 2 other players. One recently decided to start a campaign of his own. We all said "cool", cause this would mean me & my BF could play together as players. I managed to convince one of my mates to play too, as he'd never played D&D I figured he'd enjoy it. We rolled our characters, and I decided to play a halfling ranger, as I'd never played either a halfling or a ranger before. with a dex of 20, strength of 13 & con of 7 I figured the bow would be a good way to go. We were playing 3.0 at this time, and I picked a riding dog as my future animal companion, bought a shortsword/dagger & shortbow as these were the biggest weapons I could use in 3.0. I also went the Precise Shot/Point Blank Shot feat way (can't remember which was first). We were not permitted to write our own character backgrounds - our DM did that for us. In our backgrounds he gave us no names on where we were from. From the first session he started on about how rangers were the most overpowered class in the PHB. I had a copy of Masters of the Wild & asked if I could progress to a deepwood sniper PRC - DM said "fine". When we reached level 3, our DM announced he was changing to 3.5 rules (NOTE - he still uses a 3.0 DMG & 3.0 MM though). We were a little miffed that we didn't get asked, but said ok, what's changed. DM said "nothing really, oh a few ranger things". Next session I discovered I had my HD reduced, and could no longer use TWF (which I didn't use anyway so it didn't matter that much), and my shortbow & shortsword had their damage reduced (due to being smaller weapons for halflings). I asked the DM if I could just upgrade them to a longbow & longsword, since they do the same damage that a shortbow did for halflings in 3.0 - DM said No, I had to sell my existing weapons at 50% cost & buy new ones at full price. Needless to say I started getting shirty at this point. Next game DM announces that he's decided the Deepwood Sniper is way too powerful, and as the ranger was revised for 3.5 he was going to revise it. He said since a ranger dropped a hit die, my DWS would have to drop from a D8 to a D6. he said he will also be looking at some of the abilities & changing them too. My arguments that ANYONE can be a DWS were met with "Yes but it's not a melee combat class so it doesn't need a D8 hit die". Later that same session, we were attacked by goblins using longbows (remember - small bows = D6 hit die). These goblins did 7 points of damage against us on nearly every roll - apparently the 6 goblins all had point blank shot. With 7 Con, I was constantly getting wacked down to negative hit points. After combat I asked the DM whether the goblins were using masterwork arrows since they managed to hit us every single strike...he said I couldn't tell whether their arrows are better than mine or not. On top of that, he told me that my halfling had NO clear shot of any of the goblins since they were in melee with medium size creatures & had 100% cover. At this point, my mate who was playing decided he didn't like the fact that every time he wanted to do something with his character the DM would say "no, you can't do that" and he quit. He told me "I thought you said D&D was fun to play!" Our DM announces the campain is set in the Forgotten Realms (as he had used no place names until this point, none of us knew this!) He & I have the following discission: DM says "OK, since some of you have played Forgotten Realms, if any of you mention anything about the realm or gods your characters wouldn't know I'm docking experience" "(our other DM does this too and we're fine with it - players shouldn't act on knowledge characters wouldn't have) Me "None of us have played forgotten realms" "DM "Yes you have, Neverwinter Nights is set in forgotten realms!"" Me" um....I'd hardly call playing a computer game the same as having knowledge of a realm!! Besides, You haven't told us anything about what continent we're on, who the gods are, what town names are..." "DM" You don't know any of that, you only know what the name of your home town is, you wouldn' t know the names of the gods, just what you call the god you worship!" Me"But you haven't told us what town we're from!" DM' Yes I did. it's on your background I made for you" Me" No you didn't - look!" (I hand my background to my DM who sees no towns mentioned" DM "Well you must just be from the town I started you in then...whatever one that was" Next session we're hired to "Investigate" what's going on in the local sanitarium. we're getting paid 50GP to find out what's going on. Turns out there are a LOT of undead there. We're all level 4 by now (yes, we level up VERY slowly). Anyhoo, these undead all have special abilities that drain temporary ability scores whenever they touch you, with no saving throw allowed - and there are 4-6 of them at every encounter. First, one player gets reduced to 2 strength. Then I get wacked down to -3 HP (again), so we all rest & go back to town to tell the sherrif that it's too hard for three 4th level characters, with no cleric, no healing potions, and only 1 magic item to get through. TOwn sherrif orders us back there, giving us 1 cure light potion each. At the start of the NEXT session, DM says to me "oh I've been looking up the rules on firing in to melee & cover - there's a rule that says that if you miss the person you're shooting at by a 1-4, you hit the friendly who's in melee.". Me "Huh?? what's the point of taking feats in the bow to make shooting in to melee easier if you're going to pull out a new rule every session making it harder for me to shoot in to melee??" DM" well that's the rule" I get out my PHB & start looking at the rules on cover and say "Can you tell me where in this book it says I'll hit my friends when I shoot in to melee??" DM" Oh that's an optional rule, in the DMG. It's not in your book" My BF"Mate, she's taken all these bow feats & you're saying that even with precise shot she's going to hit me if I'm in melee?" DM" Yes" I then made a decision - I bought NO arrows in town....when we waded back in to the sanitarium I did not use my bow once - I grabbed my greataxe & waded in to melee. I managed to survive until I had 8 HP left. Then something attacked us that drained PERMENANT ability points of wisdom from our monk (remember, we have NO cleric in the party), we defeated it but there was a "strange darkness" in the room. The monk throws a stone at the darkness, it dissapears. I have an idea "I'm going to stick my hand in the darkness" DM"ok, take 12 points of damage & make a fortitude save" Me"oh, I failed" DM"Ok - you're completely dead. You can only be raised with a raise dead" At that point I said "OK" and turned to my BF & said "can you get a lift home, I'm leaving now. See you there" When he got home he said "you're not coming back are you?" No I'm not. SO end result - the DM is left with only 2 players from his original 4, my friend thinks D&D is a game where the DM is meant to kill the PC's, my BF & I joined another group so we can play on weekends together as players (and we love our DM too - thanks fools_wildhunt!) and invited THAT DM to the game my BF dm's. And I think I'm going to be much happier playing only in games where I can actually play the character I want to play!
Mr. Domino 07-28-04, 09:21 PM	You made the right decision, your DM was crazy.
Quartermain 07-28-04, 09:22 PM	That's definitely no fun...I don't see why he took the ranger down so badly! Good on you for quitting and finding the new DM :)
Nick Soapdish 07-28-04, 09:28 PM	My condolences. The 3.0 ranger was the most overpowered class around? Are the only other options the 3.0 bard and the fighter? I think the 3.5 ranger is a lot better, but a d8 with a 7 Constitution really bites and the new weapon size rules can be ... disappointing for a small character. I'd never make the switch in mid campaign unless everyone in the party wanted to. I think the hack job of the DWS is totally unnecessary. Maybe, maybe a few abilities need to be changed in the move to 3.5, but the HD should be completely independent of that. Whaddya wanna bet that if you had gotten to 11th level ranger (or a BAB of 12) and gotten Improved Precise Shot, you'd still be hitting friends due to cover? Out of curiosity, was this the DM's first campaign ever?
Super Guy 07-28-04, 09:45 PM	I'm actually going to have to thank you for quitting that. It's a shame that some DMs can play a game like that and think it's fun for the players. I really don't understand how so many DMs (and players) can be total idiots (about the game. I'm sure there are plenty out there who are idiots about the game but can be really cool outside of the game)
Red_Decker 07-28-04, 10:14 PM	From what I read there's only one thing that could make it worse. DMPC's to over shadow and break all the rules. Good choice to get out see if you can get your friend to try with the new DM, it might get them to realize that every group has bad apples. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Thorak 07-29-04, 12:18 AM	People here usually call me strict and overbearing. And those are the kinder terms. And I think this guy's a control-freak tool. For one; a 3.0 Shortbow, used by a Small character, should be converted to a 3.5 Small longbow. Since they're closer to the same than a Small shortbow is. For two; he's admittedly inexperienced, and yet he throws out the reccomendations of the game system in favour of his own 'ideas'. For three; basic knowledge for a character in the Forgotten Realms would include things like the names of the gods and their role in the pantheon, and such. At least generally. Sort of a "Bhaal, he was that nasty god that died, right?" kind of knowledge, at the very least. Otherwise, it's like being raised Christian and not understanding who Jesus or Moses is, or more closely, being raised in ancient Greece and not knowing who Mars or Poseidon are. You might not know their favourite fruits or specifics of their duties, but you'd know that Mars is god of War, and Poseidon of the Ocean. And the same thing for geographical features; "Wow, there's a city called Calimshan? Who knew?" You might not know how big it is compared to others, or what it exports, but you know it's down south somewhere. So, in short, he's a controlling, egotistical, illogical tool of a DM. My condolences on having to waste the hours listening to him vent at you.
the dmg 07-29-04, 12:29 AM	Originally posted by Thorak So, in short, he's a controlling, egotistical, illogical tool of a DM. My condolences on having to waste the hours listening to him vent at you. Pretty much sums up everything about that DM. Good thing you got out when you did because who knows what would have happened later on. I hope that you can convince your friend to give D&D another chance and try it out with the other DM.
Methos of Aundair 07-29-04, 12:30 AM	Wow!?! How you managed to stay in that campaign for that long shocks me. In the campaign I run, I asked the players on whether they wanted to change to 3.5, the majority said no, I went with them. After all, it is called a group, not the DM's personal game. I often wonder if DM's of this type run their campaign not for the fun of it, but more for the power they see themselves as having over the PC's. I've played in campaigns similar to this, though not as bad, and left immediately and found a different group. Sorry for the horrible gaming. And as to the precise shot feat, your ex-DM is failing to follow the rules, tell him to read the feat description and quit being an idiot. Hope you find a better DM, one who knows that a true game means everyone has fun, not just the DM or just the players, but everyone.
SnowbearK 07-29-04, 12:30 AM	:looloo: Y'know, I've been dying to use that icon...
ImmortalBlueMage 07-29-04, 02:13 AM	I'm starting to think there should be commandments for DMing. Something along the lines of: -Thou shalt not write character backgrounds for the players. If you want to come up with your own cast, write a book. -Thou shalt not overhaul core classes. WotC wrote them that way for a reason numbnuts. -Thou shalt not change editions, campaign settings, or major rules structures in mid-campaign. At LEAST wait until the current adventure is over. We need about seven more, but you get the idea.
Arcuna 07-29-04, 02:46 AM	First off, you must have amazing endurance if you stuck around to fourth level (regardless of how long it took). Second off, he needs to realize that D&D is not DM vs. PC. If it were, then I'd have thrown Vampiric Incorporeal Tarrasques (yes, plural) at my 9th level party a loooooooooong time ago. Third off, you should show him this thread and explain to him that what he did was plain stupid. (I'd go into detail on that last statement, but it's 1:40 AM here and I'm really tired) :w:
green_yawgmoth 07-29-04, 03:11 AM	We were not permitted to write our own character backgrounds - our DM did that for us. Right there you should've walked out. A DM who writes the character histories for his PCs is already showing too much of an "I'm the DM! I can do whatever I want, and you HAVE to sit here and take it!" In which you: http://www.geocities.com/sphyre_san/smile/shoothammer.txt http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Crossover-Chronicler 07-29-04, 03:48 AM	Originally posted by Arcuna Third off, you should show him this thread and explain to him that what he did was plain stupid. (I'd go into detail on that last statement, but it's 1:40 AM here and I'm really tired) :w: I especially agree with this sentiment. How's he expected to know he screwed up unless someone tells him?
KismetRose 07-29-04, 04:10 AM	It sounds like the DM was very intimidated and trying to control as many aspects as possible. Writing your character backgrounds for you was a way of controlling your character in several ways; the control was the point, however, not accuracy, so it didn't matter that you didn't know your character's hometown. It seems like the DM was afraid of being overpowered by the PCs, so he changed the rules to put you at a disadvantage and threw things at you heedless of what you could handle. It also seems that he jumped the gun and started fudging die rolls. What's worse is that he didn't give you even a chance of hitting your enemies. Players should just about always have a chance, even if it a million to one, to defend themselves. And you were fighting goblins in your example - goblins! It doesn't appear that your DM knew the Forgotten Realms that well; that may have been the reason for his paranoia about your knowledge. At the very least, he should have known that the Forgotten Realms is a place with many gods, where many gods are widely known, prayed to, and feared. It's not just about the god you worship in the FR. Please grab your friend and show him this thread - show him that D&D is not nearly as bad as his experience of it in this game. It isn't fair that he should walk away with such a bad impression. There are many wonderful games out there that are fun and dynamic. He was unlucky, but there are much better DMs out there.
Thorak 07-29-04, 11:07 AM	Originally posted by ImmortalBlueMage I'm starting to think there should be commandments for DMing. Something along the lines of: -Thou shalt not write character backgrounds for the players. If you want to come up with your own cast, write a book. Well, to a certain extent. It can be fun to be handed a character, to knock you out of a rut. But the player should still be allowed to detail the character's personality and specifics about the history, beyond things they wouldn't control like birthplace. And once the DM hands the character off, he's got no right to say "your character wouldn't do that". But yes, if you want to create a whole cast of characters and have them do what you want them to do, write a book. The game will essentially devolve into you telling everyone what everything does anyway. -Thou shalt not overhaul core classes. WotC wrote them that way for a reason numbnuts. Unless you have played the system for quite some time, and have seen that certain classes are horribly designed or have some critical flaws. *coughFightercough*. But not right out of the starting gate and wholesale like this DM apparently did. It should be reactive, not proactive. -Thou shalt not change editions, campaign settings, or major rules structures in mid-campaign. At LEAST wait until the current adventure is over. Agreed. Unless everyone agrees that you'll make a switch, unanimously. We need about seven more, but you get the idea. Most important one, IMHO; Thou art not God. Thou art a referee and storyteller. Thou serve the players, not the other way around.
Count Arioch the 28th 07-29-04, 11:40 AM	heh, I broke most of those rules. I routinely write in any blanks left open in my player's character histories, I changed editions in mid-campaign, and I overhauled Fighters, Sorcerors, and Sohei. I'm a bad DM. :cool:
The GOP Dragon 07-29-04, 01:44 PM	Originally posted by ImmortalBlueMage I'm starting to think there should be commandments for DMing. Something along the lines of: -Thou shalt not write character backgrounds for the players. If you want to come up with your own cast, write a book. -Thou shalt not overhaul core classes. WotC wrote them that way for a reason numbnuts. -Thou shalt not change editions, campaign settings, or major rules structures in mid-campaign. At LEAST wait until the current adventure is over. We need about seven more, but you get the idea. -Thou shalt honor thine players and all shall play well with you. - Thou shalt not commit monty hauls. -Thou shalt not murder thine PCs. No matter how funny it is. (Did that once to DaTedinator. Actually, I balful Polymorphed him into a lizard.) -Thou shalt noy underminethine character concepts, classes, races or anything else for asinine reasons. Two more now. Actually, I think that it probably would be best to show this to your DM. As arcuna said, he may not know he is doing something wrong. Out of curiousity, WAS this his first time DMing? Edit: I changed PCs in the thrid one from player characters to prevent to police from chasing me.
anshar 07-29-04, 03:16 PM	Originally posted by The GOP Dragon -Thou shalt not murder thine players. No matter how funny it is. Actually, this one is already covered in most countries as just plain 'murder'. Of course if you meant the players' characters... :D - Thou shalt not utter the phrase "Your character wouldn't do that." - Thou shalt not have thine own character in the game.
The GOP Dragon 07-29-04, 03:33 PM	Finally: - Thou shalt not use anything from 1001 ways to tell that you are an evil DM. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=271292). Well, that covers everything that a DM can do to be evil. Now all we need to do is ask a WizO to permanetly post these ten DM commandments on the DM message boards. :D P.S. Anshar, you are right Thou shalt not murder is already covered in the Bible. (Exodus 20 for those who want to know.) I did mean the PCs in fact I should probably change it.
MrkGrismer 07-29-04, 05:01 PM	You might be in a game with a bad DM if... We were not permitted to write our own character backgrounds - our DM did that for us. In our backgrounds he gave us no names on where we were from. From the first session he started on about how rangers were the most overpowered class in the PHB. When we reached level 3, our DM announced he was changing to 3.5 rules (NOTE - he still uses a 3.0 DMG & 3.0 MM though). DM announces that he's decided the Deepwood Sniper is way too powerful [after formerly approving the class] and he was going to revise it. After combat I asked the DM whether the goblins were using masterwork arrows since they managed to hit us every single strike...he said I couldn't tell whether their arrows are better than mine or not. Every time he wanted to do something with his character the DM would say "no, you can't do that" DM announces the campain is set in the Forgotten Realms (as he had used no place names until this point, none of us knew this!) DM says "OK, since some of you have played Forgotten Realms, if any of you mention anything about the realm or gods your characters wouldn't know I'm docking experience" DM" You don't know any of that, you only know what the name of your home town is, you wouldn' t know the names of the gods, just what you call the god you worship!" DM "Well you must just be from the town I started you in then...whatever one that was" Undead all have special abilities that drain temporary ability scores whenever they touch you, with no saving throw allowed - and there are 4-6 of them at every encounter. As an aside, since you say the new one is great, you should see if your mate can join up and find out that D&D really can be fun!
Yuffie 07-29-04, 05:43 PM	Originally posted by ImmortalBlueMage -Thou shalt not write character backgrounds for the players. If you want to come up with your own cast, write a book. I agree, although I think sometimes a DM should have the right to at least require a player to create a character within certain boundaries. I've often had successful campaigns where I said "alright, one of you has to play a prince or princess of Kindgom XYZ (regardless of class)... one has to play someone in the imperial army (regardless of class)... and one of you has to play spy (again, regardless of class)", etc. But I agree... if you're limiting more than the basic details, you're probably going too far unless the PCs and the DM all agreed to do a special kind of game. -Thou shalt not overhaul core classes. WotC wrote them that way for a reason numbnuts. Only applicable to inexperienced DMs. The core classes are not perfect for everyone's D&D campaign, and in fact make many concessions from play balance in favor of trying to maintain archaic and perhaps outdated traditions. To say that a DM couldn't do a better job of the core classes for their own campaign world is to be wrong. -Thou shalt not change editions, campaign settings, or major rules structures in mid-campaign. At LEAST wait until the current adventure is over. I agree. Unless the PCs want it too.
ImmortalBlueMage 07-29-04, 06:20 PM	I'm not even going to try to suggest that the core classes are perfectly balanced. But it's been my experience that attempts to "fix" classes generally just cause more problems than they solve.
ChimericalWolf 07-29-04, 07:27 PM	Wow, that story is quite the zinger. I'll share one with you all , too. Once apon a time, I had a DM who was running a campaign in a world entirely of his own creation (strangely, it was just like his last one) in which there were many strange and fantastical occurances. For instance - his NPC rouge robs and kills people in broad day light with no repercousions. Yet our psion tries to charm someone, and is somehow immeadiately called a witch (by very unintelligent town guards, btw) and stabbed, before being carted toward jail. He never made it however, because that same rouge traded an unspeakably evil book(the one our psion was trying to get away from him, because it was so evil) to a demon-faerie in order to have him(and his entire race) killed in a rather unspeakable fashion. This was of course the NPC that was filling our fourth character slot in the party. And I have so many, many more terrible stories of this man's attempts at "adventures".... I shudder to think that others may still play in his group.... Please if you DM in this way, reconsider you outlook on the game, (or indeed the value of your life, you a$$) so that your players might be able to enjoy themselves a little. Finally good luck to anyone dealing with a DM from Hell right now. May the almighty strength of the PHB be with you.
edgelett 07-29-04, 08:53 PM	Hey, thanks to everyone for your kind words, I thought i'd answer a few of your questions: 1) Why did I stay so long?? Well at that time, my boyfriend had been DMing for 6 years and he really wanted to play as a PC. We didn;t know any other gamers & as this was the only game we could find at the time we stuck it out. My boyfriend told me yesterday he probably won't stay either cause he's sick of being told he can't do anything. 2) Should I get my mate to join another game? Yes I'd like to, I don't know if he'll join the game our new DM runs, we're 5th level now so it might be a bit tricky for someone who's just learning. Plus my mate has a very very very short attention span, and our sunday games go for about 6 hours - he might not be able to sit still that long!! My boyfriend has just started a brand new 1st level dragonlance campaign though, played for 3 hours every second wednesday - perhaps I can convince my mate to join. 3) Am I going to tell the DM why I left? Yes. He'll be at the game my BF runs this wednesday, and I'm simply going to say sorry, I'd rather play games I enjoy!! 4) Is he an inexperienced DM?? Apparently he's run games before, but my BF & I didn't game with him then. Oh Red_Decker - there WAS a DMPC (I forgot to mention him). When we started the campaign, the PC's included 2 fighters,a monk and ranger. SO what NPC is introduced??? Another fighter!! WHY we needed 3 fighters (rather than 1 magic user or 1 rogue) I'll never know. my BF said that last week after I left, the two PC's couldn't hit anything but for some reason the NPC managed to vanquish all foes...dodgy!!
Dragonspirit 07-29-04, 09:03 PM	I have no problem with a DM establishing character histories occasionally (especially if it's to start a campaign) but the unfair nerfing of a class he frankly just didn't like - not out of balance but as a form of punishment... that's weak. You were definetly right to leave. In fact, you should have dropped it sooner.
Thorak 07-29-04, 11:50 PM	Originally posted by edgelett 3) Am I going to tell the DM why I left? Yes. He'll be at the game my BF runs this wednesday, and I'm simply going to say sorry, I'd rather play games I enjoy!! If he raises any questions or makes any comments, direct him to this thread. I look forward to defending my position that he's a, let's see, what was it? Ahh yes, a "controlling, egotistical, illogical tool of a DM."
danielinthewolvesden 07-30-04, 12:43 AM	Originally posted by edgelett 4) Is he an inexperienced DM?? Apparently he's run games before, but my BF & I didn't game with him then. Oh Red_Decker - there WAS a DMPC (I forgot to mention him). When we started the campaign, the PC's included 2 fighters,a monk and ranger. SO what NPC is introduced??? Another fighter!! WHY we needed 3 fighters (rather than 1 magic user or 1 rogue) I'll never know. my BF said that last week after I left, the two PC's couldn't hit anything but for some reason the NPC managed to vanquish all foes...dodgy!! You know, I was about to say- "This DM violated just about every guideling for good DM'ing there is- except he didn't have a DMPC":rolleyes: :D :sad: And, he had one of those, too. Tell me- did he also dock xps or run a "low magic campaign"? :pile: So we have:- Thou shalt not write character backgrounds for the players. If you want to come up with your own cast, write a book. -Thou shalt not overhaul core classes. WotC wrote them that way for a reason numbnuts. -Thou shalt not change editions, campaign settings, or major rules structures in mid-campaign. At LEAST wait until the current adventure is over. -Thou shalt honor thine players and all shall play well with you. - Thou shalt not commit monty hauls. (see below) -Thou shalt not murder thine PCs. No matter how funny it is. -Thou shalt not undermine thine character concepts, classes, races or anything else for asinine reasons. - Thou shalt not utter the phrase "Your character wouldn't do that." - Thou shalt not have thine own character in the game. I'd add "Thou shalt not dock xps- find some other way of enforcing your rules- hand out cookies or use a cricket bat" and "Thou shalt not run a "low magic campaign" without giving back plenty of cool non-magic stuff to make up for it." We can combine that with #5 and have it read "Thou shalt not run a "low magic campaign" without giving back plenty of cool non-magic stuff to make up for it, but on the other hand, remember you're not Monty Haul, either. OK? I'll add these to the "What's a DM to do" sticky if we all agree.
Palin the Wizard 07-30-04, 01:11 AM	There's nothing wrong with low magic worlds.
danielinthewolvesden 07-30-04, 01:19 AM	Palin- did you see the rest of it? "....without giving back plenty of cool non-magic stuff to make up for it." Low magic is fine. Just being CHEAP isn't. Any DM worth his salt can hand out plenty of cool, useful stuff in a low magic game. If you're not trying to make back up the lack of magic in some way- you're just being cheap and/or a control freak.
The GOP Dragon 07-30-04, 03:24 AM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden You know, I was about to say- "This DM violated just about every guideling for good DM'ing there is- except he didn't have a DMPC":rolleyes: :D :sad: And, he had one of those, too. Tell me- did he also dock xps or run a "low magic campaign"? :pile: So we have:- Thou shalt not write character backgrounds for the players. If you want to come up with your own cast, write a book. -Thou shalt not overhaul core classes. WotC wrote them that way for a reason numbnuts. -Thou shalt not change editions, campaign settings, or major rules structures in mid-campaign. At LEAST wait until the current adventure is over. -Thou shalt honor thine players and all shall play well with you. - Thou shalt not commit monty hauls. (see below) -Thou shalt not murder thine PCs. No matter how funny it is. -Thou shalt not undermine thine character concepts, classes, races or anything else for asinine reasons. - Thou shalt not utter the phrase "Your character wouldn't do that." - Thou shalt not have thine own character in the game. I'd add "Thou shalt not dock xps- find some other way of enforcing your rules- hand out cookies or use a cricket bat" and "Thou shalt not run a "low magic campaign" without giving back plenty of cool non-magic stuff to make up for it." We can combine that with #5 and have it read "Thou shalt not run a "low magic campaign" without giving back plenty of cool non-magic stuff to make up for it, but on the other hand, remember you're not Monty Haul, either. OK? I'll add these to the "What's a DM to do" sticky if we all agree. Yes! :thumbsup::D.
The Half-Orc Wizard 07-30-04, 08:47 AM	i know this looks kind of insignifcant next to all the other ridiculous things your DM did, but it is impossible for the gobilins to do 7 dmg with a shortbow, even with point blank shot. They have a strength penelty, so that is taken away from dmg.
striderII 07-30-04, 02:08 PM	Palin- did you see the rest of it? "....without giving back plenty of cool non-magic stuff to make up for it." Low magic is fine. Just being CHEAP isn't. Any DM worth his salt can hand out plenty of cool, useful stuff in a low magic game. If you're not trying to make back up the lack of magic in some way- you're just being cheap and/or a control freak. Oh, jeez...this old chestnut again. *sigh* Listen to me. ROLEPLAYING GAMES ARE NOT ABOUT GETTING STUFF!!!! Ahem. Let me repeat. ROLEPLAYING games are not about *stuff*. While getting new equipment and whatnot for your character is cool and all, it's hardly the point, which you seem to advocate. Obviously, if the DM takes your "kewl magik toyz" away, he should give you some kind of "kewl non-magik toyz", or else you're going to take your ball and go home? Is that it? A low-magic campaign is a perfectly valid choice of a campaign to run if the DM and the players wish to run such a campaign. Also, messing with the core classes, etc. is also okay, as the rulebooks assume one particular lock-stepped campaign type, which is un-realistic. The folks at WOTC, for all the things that they do that I disagree with, know this, and that's what Rule 0 is for. I would say that most gaming companies these days are implementing some similar rule, if only for the simple fact that gamers would change things anyway. In that vein, I heartily agree with the following: Only applicable to inexperienced DMs. The core classes are not perfect for everyone's D&D campaign, and in fact make many concessions from play balance in favor of trying to maintain archaic and perhaps outdated traditions. To say that a DM couldn't do a better job of the core classes for their own campaign world is to be wrong. Well said, Yuffie. In any event, to say that the rulebooks are infallible, nothing should be changed, and that all campaigns should be run as the rulebooks assume is the worst sort of rules-lawyering, powergaming, retardedness. It's also criminally stupid. But go ahead and do it anyway - gives me someone to mock. strider
danielinthewolvesden 07-30-04, 04:53 PM	Originally posted by striderII Listen to me. ROLEPLAYING GAMES ARE NOT ABOUT GETTING STUFF!!!! Let me repeat. ROLEPLAYING games are not about *stuff*. While getting new equipment and whatnot for your character is cool and all, it's hardly the point, which you seem to advocate. Obviously, if the DM takes your "kewl magik toyz" away, he should give you some kind of "kewl non-magik toyz", or else you're going to take your ball and go home? Is that it? strider Well, you're right- but D&D is . Not entirely of course. Nor is D&D JUST about "going up levels" or "killing monsters". But cool loot, killing monsters, and getting xp are all integral & fun parts of the game. Do note my line "If you're not trying to make back up the lack of magic in some way ...."- that "some way" does allow for other methods & rewards. But "cool loot" is a fun part of the game- take it out, and you should make it back up- in SOME way.
striderII 07-30-04, 10:42 PM	Well, you're right- but D&D is . So you're saying that D&D isn't a roleplaying game? What, then, is it? (And yes, I did read the rest of that paragraph) Do note my line "If you're not trying to make back up the lack of magic in some way ...."- that "some way" does allow for other methods & rewards. But "cool loot" is a fun part of the game- take it out, and you should make it back up- in SOME way. True, but somehow I doubt that being able to out-think your opponents, having wonderful roleplaying scenes, and generally being able to revel in the notion that your character defeated some kind of pesky trap or puzzle using *only* his own abilities constitutes those "other methods and rewards" in your mind. strider
Palin the Wizard 07-30-04, 11:03 PM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden Palin- did you see the rest of it? "....without giving back plenty of cool non-magic stuff to make up for it." Low magic is fine. Just being CHEAP isn't. Any DM worth his salt can hand out plenty of cool, useful stuff in a low magic game. If you're not trying to make back up the lack of magic in some way- you're just being cheap and/or a control freak. That is quite a presumptous statement to make. Yes, I did read the rest of that sentence, and my comment stands. As strider said above, role-playing games are not about getting new items. That goes for D&D as well. D&D is, above all, a role-playing game. A game of hack'n'slash can be fun, sure. But ultimately, D&D is about roleplaying. I know for a fact that plenty of groups do not advance in levels for months--indeed, some have played the same character for years, without being higher than 10th level. You can easily play without advancing in levels at all. A game of intrigue, for example, would provide little experience, and you might spend the entire game without getting any new items at all or only gaining a single level. Of course, the best games are a mix of both. But getting new items are not so integral a part of the game that it can't be left out.
danielinthewolvesden 07-30-04, 11:46 PM	Originally posted by striderII So you're saying that D&D isn't a roleplaying game? What, then, is it? (And yes, I did read the rest of that paragraph) True, but somehow I doubt that being able to out-think your opponents, having wonderful roleplaying scenes, and generally being able to revel in the notion that your character defeated some kind of pesky trap or puzzle using *only* his own abilities constitutes those "other methods and rewards" in your mind. strider Of course it's *A* Roleplaying game. And it is a Roleplaying game that is also about killing monsters and getting cool loot..... AND going up in levels. All of that is what makes D&D what it is. Take a look at the first Original 3 Volume set- 1/3 of everything printed then was about Monsters & loot. Take that stuff away from D&D and you have another game. Now- there's nothing wrong with that- Traveler is fun even tho you can't go up in levels... but still note that despite the fact the all the OTHER games are fun- NONE have been as successful as D&D. Why? Becaase you can roleplay all you want (or not)- and still get cool loot, kill fantastic monsters, and advance in power. THAT's what makes D&D the success it is. And, you can do all of that stuff with a nice magic sword, too. Or a Knighthood given for your derring-do. Or a party thrown in your honor by the town. Or a big sack of gold. Or without all that- and the game would still be fun, sure. But D&D is most fun when you have all the basic elements- roleplaying, loot, monsters & advancement. Unless somehow you think that the only way to enjoy all that is by playing a PC that never plays as a part of a party, and go through life without weapons, armour, spells, or even clothes.:rolleyes:
Nick Soapdish 07-31-04, 01:08 AM	Originally posted by The Half-Orc Wizard i know this looks kind of insignifcant next to all the other ridiculous things your DM did, but it is impossible for the gobilins to do 7 dmg with a shortbow, even with point blank shot. They have a strength penelty, so that is taken away from dmg. Ah, but they could be ELITE goblins! Put that 15 in Strength which drops to 13 and they don't even need to roll all 6s with Point Blank Shot. Or they could be really elite levelled goblins that had that 13 Strength and boosted it to 14 at 4th level. And actually the standard goblin in the MM started with a 13 Strength which got bumped down to an 11 so he could be rolling 7s if he rolled all 6s and had PBS. Or they could be critting each time. It's still awfully unlikely that they'll be getting 7 points of damage once, much less multiple times.
striderII 07-31-04, 03:57 AM	Take a look at the first Original 3 Volume set- 1/3 of everything printed then was about Monsters & loot. Take that stuff away from D&D and you have another game. Um...the original set grew out of a tactical wargame. It was a step in the roleplaying direction. It makes sense that it featured those things. You're taking things out of context there. Besides, I should think that the game has grown up a bit since then, wouldn't you? Now- there's nothing wrong with that- Traveler is fun even tho you can't go up in levels... but still note that despite the fact the all the OTHER games are fun- NONE have been as successful as D&D. I wouldn't really say that, exactly. As D&D was purchased by WOTC, which in turn is now owned by Hasbro - HASBRO, for crying out loud! - I would say that they have a lot more money to put into things like shipping, POS materials, etc., as well as being able to churn out more supplements and whatnot due to having a much larger staff. Now, I have no hard and fast figures on staffing numbers, etc, of WOTC or any other gaming company, but I think it's easy to agree that WOTC easily has a larger staff than any other gaming company, yes? Okay, then - now, if I ask you to name the two biggest gaming companies for RPG's (not counting wargames like Warhammer, etc.), you would probably say WOTC and White Wolf, right? Even though White Wolf is a much smaller company, they are currently (according to the blurb at the bottom of every one of their press releases) holding 26% of the market share (I think...could be 29%). That's not bad, considering relevant size. What all that rambling is supposed to point at is that D&D isn't necessarily the "most successful" due to quality, but rather due to marketing, longevity (it's been around for a LONG time, after all), and other such features that give it the edge. Also, what is the "most successful"? It doesn't necessarily mean the "best" - look at all the reality shows on TV these days - they get a lot of ratings, but they're just plain crap. (No, I'm not saying D&D is crap. I'm just saying that the quality of anything, especially something in a subjective market like RPG's or TV, that the quality of something is not necessarily analagous to its perceived success) Unless somehow you think that the only way to enjoy all that is by playing a PC that never plays as a part of a party, and go through life without weapons, armour, spells, or even clothes. I never said that. What I was saying is that, from the tone of your posts, it seems like *stuff* is a prime motivator in your games. I see you can come up with other rewards, but whether or not you have the moral fiber to use them is the question, or do you go to the lowest common denominator of "stuff"? I think my biggest problem with you is every time you hear "low magic", "DM makes decision X that the players disagree with", or similar statements, you *immediately* jump out with the "control freak DM" or "bad low magic campaign!" bandwagons. Either accept that there is more to a roleplaying game than loot and killing stuff, or go back and play Doom on the computer. Seems to be about your mental level. strider
danielinthewolvesden 07-31-04, 04:24 AM	I don't debate with folks who stoop to personal attacks. My part here is over. Thanks to several of the other posters- we have enshrined the "10 laws of DMing" now elsewhere. Good work!
Red_Decker 07-31-04, 11:53 AM	I really don't like the DMPC, had a DM that pulled that trick before, had two of them in fact. Not that we needed them he just wanted them in. A Half-dragon barbarian and a paladin that seemed to be able to smite every turn. The paladin was a favorite, I tried to get them both killed at every oppurtunity. Also, D&D is successesful because it's been around so long and most of us grew up with it being around. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
striderII 07-31-04, 05:45 PM	I don't debate with folks who stoop to personal attacks. My part here is over. Hey, I call 'em like I sees 'em. Never said I was a nice person. In fact, read my sig, and I think you'll see a theme going. Thanks to several of the other posters- we have enshrined the "10 laws of DMing" now elsewhere. Good work! Yeah, so where are they at, sparky? I certainly hope that they aren't what you have posted above, as they're wrong, but I'd like to see them. strider
Palin the Wizard 07-31-04, 08:14 PM	He put them where he said he'd put them. The 'What's a DM to Do?' FAQ. Check here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=4087560#post4087560).
striderII 08-01-04, 01:45 AM	Thanks, Palin - I figured it was there, but didn't feel like going through the pages to find it (yes, I know I could just click "Last Page", but I was being lazy). :) Posted my comments on that thread. strider
Petchvarry 08-01-04, 05:26 AM	We can each play it how our imaginations see fit. neither of you are right and niether are wrong. To me that is the main reason for its success as well. If you like getting a bunch of crap and seeing big numbers cool find groups that like similar things if you like an immersive story that has sporadic fighting and occasional item rewards great find a group and do it. For me i like a mix immersive story with fun rewards and slow proggresion but thats my style and i dont expect you to play like unless of course we are in the same group then if you dont like that style 1 of us will have to move on and i usually carry a big axe. now go have your fun quit trying to prove a game of imagination has a right and wrong way to play it only has general guidlines.
striderII 08-01-04, 05:36 PM	now go have your fun quit trying to prove a game of imagination has a right and wrong way to play it only has general guidlines. I'm not trying to say that there is a right way to play or a wrong way to play (now, I do believe that, but that's outside the scope of this current discussion). What I *was* trying to do was knock him off his "low-magic campaign = control freak DM" horse, that he's been on for just about forever. It's a wrongheaded and retarded way to think of gaming. strider
FrogTheMighty 08-02-04, 12:20 AM	First of all strider, I completely agree with you that there is nothing wrong with a "low magic campaign. However I do believe you were a little..."sharp", in how you have responded to some of the others. This is after all supposed to be a friendly forum. No room for mean people here! :D
Centerpoint 08-02-04, 02:23 AM	Low magic campaigns are fun, but it doesn't mean I won't loot the corpses of all those elite goblins!!:D There is a person in my gaming group who actually likes the DM to write the backgrounds for his characters. I used an amnesia flashback/slowly regaining memory as an entertaining addition to one of the campaigns I DMed. I do, however, think your DM was a DM in need of a wake up call. Fudging rolls to hurt characters always bad, like, puke flavored jelly beans bad. Good for you, getting out before *too much* time was wasted. I hope you get your buddy to give it another shot. Also, just a pet peeve of mine, but your characters not knowing the world they live in? Please...... are you going to tell me the two hundred year old elf and the seventy year old dwarf or the (insert age here) halfling you are playing, particularly in FR, do not know what god they worship? Was your DM running his campaign out of a FR novel? That is like saying a peasant in eighteentn century France does not know he is ruled by a King....:censored: :censored: :censored: :censored:
striderII 08-02-04, 06:01 AM	First of all strider, I completely agree with you that there is nothing wrong with a "low magic campaign. However I do believe you were a little..."sharp", in how you have responded to some of the others. This is after all supposed to be a friendly forum. No room for mean people here! No, that wasn't me being "sharp" - that was me being blunt. Me being "sharp" would have a lot of things like **** and ***** and such in it (I just typed asterisks, guys...no words are editted out there). And, I'd be a lot less sharp if he and others like him didn't think that way, and if he in particular didn't have that knee-jerk reaction *every* time I've seen him post on the subject. As I'm a stubborn bastard, I'm going to be the guy to rail against him every single time I see it, and if I'm a bit "sharp", then so be it. strider
Zelphi 08-02-04, 09:39 AM	After this and many other topics... Why do people allow bad DM's to DM? Can't you do it? Most Dm's are weenies... punch him... take his DMG and turn him into a Kobold. Why put up with them ever?
Beamup 08-02-04, 09:47 AM	Sometimes the bad DM is the only DM around. Sometimes people want to give them the benefit of the doubt and see if they learn. Sometimes even a bad DM is the best available, if nobody else has even a clue how to do it.
Zelphi 08-02-04, 10:24 AM	That can't be possible... if you can identify a bad DM, you can aknowledge what makes a Good DM and not do whatever chumpy crap the bad DM does. Seeing as the basics of being a DM can be performed by a cruddy DM, it must be possible to just commandere... As long as you avoid being or becoming a bad DM then you must be better than a bad DM. It can't actually be a real situation, just someone being scared to make a pop.
Beamup 08-02-04, 10:31 AM	Originally posted by Zelphi That can't be possible... if you can identify a bad DM, you can aknowledge what makes a Good DM and not do whatever chumpy crap the bad DM does. Not necessarily. There's a lot more to being a good (or even decent) DM than being able to recognize a bad one.
Palin the Wizard 08-02-04, 10:36 AM	Not to mention that (in trying to avoid making recognized "bad" mistakes), you could make mistakes which you don't see.
Arbitrary Aardvark 08-02-04, 02:11 PM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden Traveler is fun even tho you can't go up in levels... Actually, you can go up levels in the newest, d20-based, version of the game.
MrkGrismer 08-02-04, 02:29 PM	You could go up in skill levels in all previous versions as well. Although every Traveller game I ran was more about the money as far as the PCs were concerned.
Lokiyn 08-02-04, 03:37 PM	Originally posted by Zelphi Why do people allow bad DM's to DM? Can't you do it? Well i let them do it for the amusment. Take a dm who likes to throw in these save or die situation where his dmpc never seems to get into (oh bob goes to take a leak) 30 sec later a meteor strikes reflex save or die.... not that bad but ancient potions that have a save of 3000+ if you succed you get divine ranks are common. now take auspician and take him up to level ten then drink the potion, make the save, become an over diety and smote his campaign world and remake it. In other words set up carefully orchestrated situation where the dm has to either a.) realize that he's making asinine decisions and blatently dm'ing like a puppet master. b.) grow a little and realize that everyone deserves the spotlight not just his puppet. If the dm doesn't change i leave. i prefer the level nine spell Players Conspirisy illusion [Good] Level: Player 1-9 Components: V, S, M, F Casting Time: Multiple Sessions Range: Close Area: Small group of creatures Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Mature or die Spell Resistance: no This spell is a unique real world spell in which player conspire togather to take advantage of a bad dm's badness to construct and ingame situation in which the dm must eight mature and realize what an horrible dm they are being or lose the playing group. Such Events are rare and takes the cooperation of all players involved in said session. Often times this comes about by taking advantage of house rules, or noting violations of consistancy and carefully charting statistics of wealth and power between dmpc's and pc's themselves. After the event occurs usually there will be a period where the dm enters a rage as a first level barbarian. After the rage ends the dm either continues on as before with a vicious streak and loses all players or becomes a mediocre dm with a chance of becomeing a good dm. Material Component: Mt Dew,Snacks, time, patience Focus; bad Dm.... in my experince this has about an 80% success rate and the lesson sticks about 60% of the time causing repeated castings to occur.:D
Red_Decker 08-02-04, 06:28 PM	Some players can't DM and some DMs can't play. I can't DM, everytime I try something gets in the way of my fun and/or the groups fun. Also I'm something of a perfectionist, if the game isn't going to exactly my specifications [which never happens], I don't get a story idea out correctly. I throw in a npc to help the party and they party attacks to npc[actually happened made me really mad.] Long story short I don't DM, its a fact of life the people in my group understand that and accept it. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
edgelett 08-02-04, 09:18 PM	Originally posted by Zelphi Why do people allow bad DM's to DM? Can't you do it? Why put up with them ever? if you can identify a bad DM, you can aknowledge what makes a Good DM and not do whatever chumpy crap the bad DM does. It can't actually be a real situation, just someone being scared to make a pop. OK, I'm pretty sure I explained myself but now I'm being accused of lying and being scared to DM I'm rather mad. The reason I played with the crappy DM was, my boyfriend had been MY DM for about 6 years, and he wanted to play as a PC in a game with me...i.e we both wanted to be PC's together for a change. This left a choice of only 2 other people we knew at the time to DM - one just wasn't interested cause she works full time and is studying part time, and wouldn't have any spare time to do the background work (create adventures etc). The other bloke had heaps of time & said he wanted to DM. None of us had played under him before so we didn't know he sucked. Now that my BF & I have found another DM we can play under as PC's, I'm starting to prepare my OWN campaign to run (I will be running Hackmaster, just for something different!) and as soon as I finish reading the DMG & the first module I have planned I'll be initiated in to the ranks of DM.
Red_Decker 08-02-04, 10:05 PM	That last sentence really makes being a DM sound like being in a cult... http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
edgelett 08-03-04, 12:50 AM	Originally posted by Red_Decker That last sentence really makes being a DM sound like being in a cult... http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt you mean it's not??? j/k :D
Zelphi 08-03-04, 06:22 AM	It's not against you, but there are countless threads were someone complains about some naff DM. It's not actually that hard... for a long time I DM'd (back in 3.0) without a DMG and with only player with dice. All it takes is to guid the people through an adventure, and take it through there. You (not Egglet, but the suffering player) can at least take an aggressive stance and explain these things to his face if he's a screw up DM. Whilst you might do worse, you'll at least show the stupid former DM now Player what a bad DM can be. You can't identify a bad DM and what they're doing unless you can identify a bad DM and what they're doing. Seeing as you (again not ms Egg but the suffering player) are complaining about it on some board... you have identified the problem, someones being stupid. It's strange, but I raraly see threads from DM's complaining about their players. Of course their are the odd few, but they are rarely as prominent as this.
Beamup 08-03-04, 07:23 AM	Originally posted by Zelphi It's strange, but I raraly see threads from DM's complaining about their players. If you frequent the DMG forums, particularly "What's a DM to do?", you'll see them EVERYWHERE. At least as many as players complaining about DMs. Plus threads complaining about how players can actually have the gall to complain about their DM since all DMs are obvious paragons of all that is good about D&D.:rolleyes:
Crusher Nate 08-03-04, 07:38 PM	Originally posted by edgelett you mean it's not??? j/k :D No, it's not a cult. It only seems like one until you reach the Second Circle of Harmonic Convergence and all the 47 Truths of the Eternal Bliss are revealed to you in their shining glory.
Sphyre 08-04-04, 02:47 AM	Originally posted by green_yawgmoth Right there you should've walked out. A DM who writes the character histories for his PCs is already showing too much of an "I'm the DM! I can do whatever I want, and you HAVE to sit here and take it!" In which you: http://www.geocities.com/sphyre_san/smile/shoothammer.txt http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif LOL, glad to see you using the smiley I made :D Comes in handy, huh? :)