Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fitz10019 06-26-07, 08:59 AM	I have a druid, level 8, and his animal companion is his mount. The party stayed at an inn, and my druid left his mount in the stable. The night passes. In the morning, my druid goes to the stable and his mount is dead. No combat, no -9 but stable (no pun intended), just dead. Apparently, some people who don't like our party killed him. Is this common? I mean is "off camera" death common and considered fair play? I wouldn't expect a character to die unless he had a bad roll, or made a dumb decision, like not fleeing. Animal companions are a grey area where the player makes the creature but he is really an NPC. I know how easy it is to replace an animal companion, but for flavor, I didn't want to treat the animal as disposible. When my druid started talking about raise dead, the DM told me that druids, respecting the cycle of life, would not choose to have an animal raised. I'm struggling with the DM's decision to kill my animal companion, so I'm asking you all to comment on whether this is typical and I should lump it, or is this atypical and I've got a legitimate gripe.
Genetic 06-26-07, 09:11 AM	No combat makes me go "..."
claypigeons 06-26-07, 09:29 AM	Well, for one thing, off camera deaths of YOUR PARTY suck, and are probably the lamest thing a DM can do short of railroading you through his story. Off camera death of an NPC ally.. whatever. Off camera death of a class feature because you couldn't bring it into the inn? Lame beyond words. If your DM is going to slaughter your companions like that, then they are innately disposible. Just get a new one and find out who killed the other. After that, search them out and end their "cycle of life".
Holy_Beholder 06-26-07, 10:18 AM	Did you get a listen check for when they tried to sneak into wherever you were holding them? Did you get a listen check to hear the fight? What about the rest of the party, and other people in the inn? If you didn't then it was cheap, if you did and failed, tough luck. Also, these are not rhetorical questions, can you actually answer them please.
mearrin69 06-26-07, 10:32 AM	Yeah, that's pretty well BS. Even if your DM somehow parlays it into a great adventure hook it's still not cool in my book. BUT, if that's the way he's going to play and you want to stay in the game I guess you'd better avoid getting attached in the future and just call for Meat Shield #2 (the second in a long line). Remember to always take the biggest, baddest AC you can get. Hey, it's his rules. I'm the sort that would keep my underpowered 1st-level AC into epic levels is possible - but if my DM pulled this on my I'd become an AC powergamer quick as a wink. M Edit: Sorry, bad advice...you should talk to him first and tell him how much this distresses you and discuss how you view your PC's AC relationships.
Hydryh 06-26-07, 11:45 AM	Your DM was a ninny. Also, who's he to say that your druid won't raise the creature that may well be his best friend? Especially since he was brutally murdered. I smell railroading, and it smells like a rotten DM.
Some_call_me_Tim 06-26-07, 12:24 PM	Congratulations, your DM has brought new meaning to lame. He should have fought out the battle. Given the party a chance to hear it and stop it. If I tried a stunt like this as a DM (I probably wouldn't as its just cheesy). I would have either done it on-screen with you controlling the animal or at the very least, if I wanted to hide information about the assailants from you, ran it off-screen but recording the rolls and information so that you could be shown what happened afterwards to show that your companion died fighting by the rules not DM fiat. I suspect your DM just wanted to railroad you, which means he probably isn't that good of a DM.
Salla 06-26-07, 12:26 PM	Another good reason to not have animal companions or familiars.
bobothechimp 06-26-07, 12:30 PM	That is completely ridiculous. Horses tend to have plenty of hit points, and animal companions even moreso. The folks who killed it would almost definitely not kill it in one hit, and the horse should have at least put up some of a fight. This fight would have been plenty loud, definitely enough to wake up someone. This, along with not allowing the horse to be raised, seems like terrible railroading.
Evil DM Mk3 06-26-07, 12:32 PM	No not fair. Also how tough where these guys to take out an animal companion so easily? Bonus hd, str, dex, nat armour, not JUST a hourse remember.
wonlee76 06-26-07, 12:56 PM	Killing the AC "off camera" is not that horrific. Its an NPC. If a DM had to run every combat where an NPC that the PC's know or have some relation too but are unable to participate/help in any manner, the game would come to a screeching halt. Your DM dictacting to you that you should not raise dead your animal companion is wrong. Cycle of nature or whatnot, this is a situation of your animal companion being murdered/killed. Its one thing for an animal to die of old age or to a predator in the wild. Its another where some enemy of yours is out for petty revenge and decides to take it out on your animal companion. OOC: I suspect your DM may want to introduce a "better" animal companion for your druid and thus decided on his own that killing off your AC off camera would give you an opportunity to get the "better" animal companion. Its railroading but considering he said you shouldn't raise your AC tells me I believe he has plans for a new animal companion for you.
Ack 06-26-07, 02:10 PM	Any time a GM plans to 'improve' a PC when the PC is happy with what he's got requires that the GM talk to the PC about it. I've been in two different situations (in superhero games, to be precise, but that's beyond the point) where the GM decided to introduce a new aspect to my character without actually asking me what I thought about it. Both times, I fought tooth and nail against it. The first game ended shortly thereafter, but the second time, I actually convinced the GM that I really did want the character's powers to go back to the way they were before. So we went through an adventure with the specific aim of restoring his powers to standard. Change is not necessarily a good thing. I would say, go ahead and do the Raise Dead thing. Tell the GM that he's permitted to define his NPCs' attitudes, but your character's motivations and desires are your business and no-one else's.
pres_man 06-26-07, 02:17 PM	Your DM is right, a druid would not want to raise dead. Reincarnate though is another matter. ;)
BW0222 06-26-07, 02:51 PM	Fitz10019, I'm struggling with the DM's decision to kill my animal companion, so I'm asking you all to comment on whether this is typical and I should lump it, or is this atypical and I've got a legitimate gripe. It is a legitimate grip. Sneaking into a stable and killing off a large animal without causing the other animals to go nuts, alert others, etc. is either complete nonsense or a near epic task. You have dozens of spot and listen checks, you need to mask scent, you need to kill a 6hd+ creature in one hit, and then you need to somehow silence and calm down all the horses. If such a thing could happen, imagine that that person would have no problems doing the same to any of the PCs? Is there any reason he/they couldn't have entered the inn and killed any of the PCs in their sleep and snuck out without anyone noticing? Of course not. Is it possible to take an animal companion out? Sure. Is it possible to do so in a stable full of horses without causing a lot of noise, panicing the horses, having folks notice, etc.? Sorry and not anywhere near EL 8. If it was, you are all dead and you just don't realize it yet. I'd begin casting a few speak with animals on the horses in the stables. See if the DM can dream up some way none of them noticed an animal being killed outright, why they didn't panic, etc. Reincarnate and talk with your companion if necessary. If the DM can come up with such a case ... Druid PC: [i]"Ok, folks. We're obviously dealing with the lord or murder himself. I've never heard of an assassin outside of tales of the gods able to pull that one off. If it can sneak past a dozen animals and kill Gront in one hit without even a peep from any of them... then none of us stand a chance. I say, let's give up this quest and leave town. Go to some other country where we aren't known, try farming, or something where we won't be discovered. If not, then I'm heading for the woods and hiding out as a wolf in some cave for the next five years." i.e. If you DM doesn't want to play within the bounds of reality and wants to toss nonsense your way, react completely honestly -- flee, refuse to enter cities, don't ever leave your animal companion alone, become a paranoid hermit living in a cave, etc. If that happens to nerf his plot and waste hours of planning and preparation... not your problem.
pres_man 06-26-07, 03:02 PM	Did the party have any other mounts? Were those also killed? If not, then I'd say you got a pretty good issue to argue there. If he claims the bad guys knew this was your animal companion and the rest were just mounts, then I'd toss the yellow flag and call a metagaming penalty.
foxtail 06-26-07, 03:04 PM	Killing the animal was just a very poor choice on your DM's part. If he's going to kill someone to get the party riled up, that's what NPCs are for. Or whatever living family members you put in your backstory. Edit: Also, the no-raising thing? That's just plain bull.
zelf_gale 06-26-07, 03:04 PM	Hello Fitz, Is this common? I mean is "off camera" death common and considered fair play? "Off camera" deaths are common for NPCs in general, but I'd consider it rude to kill off (or otherwise steal) a player's animal companion (or familiar or special mount or cohort), without allowing the player to role play the encounter. If it was done, I'd expect it to become an immediate plot hook and include some way of recovering the previous animal companion. Otherwise they'd need a very good reason, one which I cannot think of at the moment. When my druid started talking about raise dead, the DM told me that druids, respecting the cycle of life, would not choose to have an animal raised. While this is a perfectly acceptable standard theology of druids in a particular campaign setting, it should never limit what your individual character does. If you want to role play your druid off type, do it. And get a new DM if he tells you that you can't. Druids do however, have one method of retrieval that should be more acceptable, the spell Reincarnation, which is on the druid spell list and has great "natural" flavor. Followed by a Wish or Miracle and you'll even have the companion back into his original form, no matter where the dice fell on the initial Reincarnation roll. I would expect a DM to provide these services after a quest initiated by the aforementioned plot hook at no or little additional cost, unless the DM was specifically attempting to bring party treasure back into line after an over distribution. And by the way, if you did want to kill someone in their sleep, a squad of low level rogues, under a silence spell, can easily kill most characters who haven't set up a good watch. Which is why when you take the Leadership feat your cohort and followers of 3rd level or higher should be clerics with a lot of 2nd level Pearls of Power and all your other followers should be rogues. :)
DaidojiTaidoru 06-26-07, 03:04 PM	Your DM is right, a druid would not want to raise dead. Reincarnate though is another matter. ;) Yes. Remember the chart in the PHB is for humanoids, so you'll have to make a new chart. Offer to help your GM. Smile. Seriously though that was kinda lame. He's just asking for you to revert to your true form and start breathing atomic fire.
Fitz10019 06-26-07, 03:12 PM	Did you get a listen check for when they tried to sneak into wherever you were holding them? Did you get a listen check to hear the fight? What about the rest of the party, and other people in the inn? I am not aware of any failed listen checks, but I concede that it's possible they were rolled and failed. (However, months ago, when the same animal was kidnapped in a different city, a silence spell was used.) But the overall attack (when the animal was killed) was well-planned. They hit at first light. The spellcasters were trying to sleep late because of interrupted sleep (an arsonous fire in the night). Our fighters were ambushed at the forge when they went to their daily weapon-crafting. Overall, we were at our most vulnerable. (FYI, our average party level is 8.) I simplified the animal's death for a baseline reaction (thanks to all the respondants). Now I should eleborate. When my druid got to the stable door, he saw the animal with it's throat slit. The same had been done to a party member weeks before (but that party member was only mostly dead, and we revived him with CLW). Seeing his mount in this state, my druid rushed over to it, in a straight line, heedless of anything on the floor. (The ambushed fighters had to deal with caltrops, and I explicitly didn't want to metagame, so the druid expressed no caution about the floor, even though as a player I had the urge to jump the last 10 feet.) The druid blundered across an exploding disk (AFAIK, no spot check), and the radius blast engulfed him and the animal companion. So, even if the animal were at -1, with no reflex save it had virtually no chance of surviving the blast. I don't know how much damage the blast did, because the DM doesn't give us our HPs until we're low. Technically, the animal could have been alive, and I could have saved him if I had inexplicably jumped the disk, inexplicably walked around it, or inexplicably entered the stable from the back door. Maybe with some imagination, I could find a dozen inexplicable ways to save him, but at the time I wanted to act in-character. To Wonlee and Mearrin69, your advice is to talk to, or to have trust in, the DM. I guess that's the crux of it. To me, blundering into the stable was an act of trust, and my druid literally got burned, and my animal companion got crisped. My trust account is now down below the minimum balance. I lumped it until the following session, and that was when the "cycle of life" comment was made. I truly appreciate Wonlee's observation that murder by a humanoid does not qualify as an animal's natural cycle. Perhaps I should let the DM run into trust overdraft.
Ack 06-26-07, 03:31 PM	Okay ... one does not 'slit' the throat of a horse. As one who has participated in the slaughter of livestock (for the purpose of making beef out of cow) an animal's throat is very tough and extremely hard to slash in one motion with anything short of a largish (over 2 ft long) and extremely sharp blade. And even then, if it is at all free to move, then its natural reaction is going to make the completion of the cut very friggin' difficult. If it was in a stall, then the would-be slaughterer finds himself trapped in a cramped space with a violently moving 500+ lb object. Tied to a rail? Stepped on, kicked, leaned on (even crushed against the rail). More to the point, if the AC is at all intelligent (as most ACs are) then it is likely to react violently to someone approaching it with weapon drawn (and make it nigh impossible for someone to get to the throat). So yeah, were I you, I'd call shenanigans. Tell the GM straight out that unless he has a really good plot hanging off this (and that you want to know a few details) then you will be bringing back your horse.
bob_the_great 06-26-07, 04:46 PM	No, not fair. It may be an NPC, but it is a player NPC. You should have been able to play it out. As for raising the animal, you can do whatever you want. Even if druids aren't fans of raising animals you're not a paladin. You can do it anyway and not fear losing your powers. The horse in no way died a natural death, so I don't buy the "cycle of life" view. Going forward, if you want to make a point to a crappy DM you should probably use a previous example and start naming your animals "Meat Shield #2." If the DM was trying to enrage your character by killing his animal have it instead deaden your emotions. You can't mess with a fatalist. Ooh, you could always use this to go evil. If a group of assassins did this, find out what group did it and who is in the group. Hunt down the family of those people and slaughter them the same way your animal was slaughtered. Constructively, just tell the DM it was uncool and discuss it to your satisfaction. Start casting reduce animal on your companion and take it everywhere with you.
wonlee76 06-26-07, 04:49 PM	Fitz10019, Sneaking into a stable and killing off a large animal without causing the other animals to go nuts, alert others, etc. is either complete nonsense or a near epic task. You have dozens of spot and listen checks, you need to mask scent, you need to kill a 6hd+ creature in one hit, and then you need to somehow silence and calm down all the horses. You make it sound like an impossible task to sneak up on a sleeping animal in a world where magic is plentiful. A simple coup de grace could kill the animal companion. Listen and Spot checks on a horse = +4. Penalty on the listen check while asleep is a -10. That's not a very difficult Move Silently check to make to at least go unnoticed by a horse by sound. Scent may be a bit more difficult to overcome but in a stable with other horses, maybe the scent of the other animals is sufficient to let the horse's guard down or magic or alchemical item of some sorts is used to disguise one's natural smell to overcome scent. Deep Slumber + Silence is one way of someone to slay a horse without anyone being the wiser. Deep slumber for the weaker horses and one for the animal companion if possible. Coup De grace. Dead animal companion. Of course the animals would go nuts when they wake up to the smell of blood in the air but by then its too late.
OravennasBrother 06-26-07, 05:00 PM	You knew you had enemies (the ones who earlier tried to get at you by taking you AC/mount) and yet did not use adequate security measures for you stay at the inn. It's hardly surprising the AC died.
Some_call_me_Tim 06-26-07, 05:12 PM	The same had been done to a party member weeks before (but that party member was only mostly dead, and we revived him with CLW).Wait, he had a PC ambushed off-screen? I'm sorry, but I would be packing my stuff and finding a new game if that happened to me. A couple of things you have said makes me think your DM is a bit of a control freak. Keeping track of player hit points, not giving you spot/listen checks, things happening off-screen that directly affect the characters. Those are not the hallmarks of a good DM. I also see a few things that your party did to aggravate the problem. Some one torched the building you were in and you didn't take extra precautions? You did rush in blindly into the stable, I would have at least asked to make a spot check to look around for an ambush.
wonlee76 06-26-07, 05:37 PM	To Wonlee and Mearrin69, your advice is to talk to, or to have trust in, the DM. I guess that's the crux of it. To me, blundering into the stable was an act of trust, and my druid literally got burned, and my animal companion got crisped. My trust account is now down below the minimum balance. I lumped it until the following session, and that was when the "cycle of life" comment was made. I truly appreciate Wonlee's observation that murder by a humanoid does not qualify as an animal's natural cycle. Perhaps I should let the DM run into trust overdraft. I didn't mean "trust" the DM. Just that the DM's comment about not raising your animal companion reeks of your DM either wanting to get rid of the animal companion or wanting to give you a "better" animal companion. This is just generally poor form in my opinion. As for stumbling into the stable and not spotting a trap... search is the skill that is used to find traps. A generous DM might give a spot check but there's nothing in the rules that allows a spot check to find a trap unless the DM wants to be obvious about it (or the bad guy who set up the trap is really bad at setting up traps). So I'm not sure why blindly rushing into the barn smack into a well placed trap would cause you to "distrust" your DM? Sounds like the DM is using very intelligent NPCs to fight you folks which may also explain why your AC is dead. If they're intelligent, they surely can use magic to sneak/coup de grace your animal companion.
Jagyr Ebonwood 06-26-07, 06:44 PM	I don't know how much damage the blast did, because the DM doesn't give us our HPs until we're low. Yet another point against your DM.
WolfHati 06-26-07, 06:52 PM	Taking actions which are essentially auto-kills without warning for characters, and by extension familiars and animal companions, is bad DM-ing form, no matter how reasonable it would be for an NPC to do such a thing. Also, while druids tending to be against disrupting the natural cycle of life is reasonable, characters can act according to their own conscience. Raising an animal companion who was murdered by unnatural means is not horribly undruidish.
Evil DM Mk3 06-26-07, 06:57 PM	Can I just say, attacking the hourse = Good sneaky Evil DMing (although a fireball or something might have been better, no need to be there when the PCs arrive) Doing it totaly off screen = Control freak or railroad DMing.
ranewen 06-26-07, 07:28 PM	Okay ... one does not 'slit' the throat of a horse. As one who has participated in the slaughter of livestock (for the purpose of making beef out of cow) an animal's throat is very tough and extremely hard to slash in one motion with anything short of a largish (over 2 ft long) and extremely sharp blade. And even then, if it is at all free to move, then its natural reaction is going to make the completion of the cut very friggin' difficult. If it was in a stall, then the would-be slaughterer finds himself trapped in a cramped space with a violently moving 500+ lb object. Tied to a rail? Stepped on, kicked, leaned on (even crushed against the rail). I have read about obsidian blades that can cut cleanly through a horse's neck, but that would decapitate. samauri of old would walk around, and use their sword against a bystander "to test their weapon" anything that didn't cut cleanly through the torso was a defective katana. i've been in a stall with a horse, just grooming it. horses are BIG, and they're heavy. I had an appaloosa step on my foot once. and I always used to put some characters up on heavy horses, until i got to work with some Belgiums. those draft horses feet alone were the size of dinner plates. one step with those, i don't care what stamina you have, you'll be limping out of that stall. my vote on this, is that what your DM did is lame. yes i'ts considered an NPC, but it's an extension of the character itself, not just joe smoe on the streets wanting to tag along. according to the AC info in the PHB, a druid of 8th level would have link: allowing him/her to control AC as a free action, and Evasion: allowing reflex save for half damage, in addition to the increase in HD, natural armor, and abilities. as someone who follows a nature respecting religion, we do honor the natural life cycle. being murdered is not a part of that. Reincarnate would allow the horses spirit to return in another form. also.. in the 2nd eberron module. shadows of the last war (page 23). there is a double scimitar (oddly enough was based on a elven ranger who lost his horse AC. one side of the blade features a horse head, the other a tail), you might also see about putting the horse's spirit into a talisman, weapon, or relic that would allow the AC to continue with you on your adventures.
Xenocide 06-26-07, 08:00 PM	I think the horse's death was fair enough. If some NPC has a gripe with the party that's a cruel thing to do and quite logical actually. You didn't mention but I would assume they killed all the mounts, not just yours. The telling you not to raise your horse is odd, very odd. I agree with previous poster that he might be trying to railroad in a new AC. Doing that to any player is pretty unfair though as you mentioned. I can see being killed in your sleep but you would get a Listen check at least and you would have to roll.
Ack 06-27-07, 12:26 AM	samauri of old would walk around, and use their sword against a bystander "to test their weapon" anything that didn't cut cleanly through the torso was a defective katana. Well, the version I heard was that they'd test it on the body of a condemned criminal (the story varies as to whether the criminal was actually alive or dead at the time; YMMV according to personal taste). But in any case, in order to get up sufficient power to do serious damage to a horse's neck, one would have to do a full-blooded over-the-head two-handed swing. Kinda hard to do in a stable.
Salla 06-27-07, 12:47 AM	Minor threadjack ... Am I the only DM that leaves control of mounts, animal companions, and familiars to the player? It's THEIR class feature, THEY can deal with it!
Fitz10019 06-27-07, 01:52 AM	You didn't mention but I would assume they killed all the mounts, not just yours. Nope, just mine. The other mounts are as healthy as horses. Heh. My druid is a halfling, and my mount was a brixashulty -- the medium-sized goat-like creature from RoW. The DM decided this is a very rare and conspicuous creature, even though the price in the book is the same as a light warhorse.
Salla 06-27-07, 02:04 AM	Nope, just mine. The other mounts are as healthy as horses. Heh. My druid is a halfling, and my mount was a brixashulty -- the medium-sized goat-like creature from RoW. The DM decided this is a very rare and conspicuous creature, even though the price in the book is the same as a light warhorse. I can hear it now. "I killed your animal companion because I can't pronounce it."
danielinthewolvesden 06-27-07, 02:15 AM	Wait, he had a PC ambushed off-screen? I'm sorry, but I would be packing my stuff and finding a new game if that happened to me. A couple of things you have said makes me think your DM is a bit of a control freak. Keeping track of player hit points, not giving you spot/listen checks, things happening off-screen that directly affect the characters. Those are not the hallmarks of a good DM. No, those are the warning signs of a control-phreak BAD DM. Show him this htread, ask him to come here and explain. If he does not, then leave the game. Oh, and tell him why and inform the other players too. Salla "Am I the only DM that leaves control of mounts, animal companions, and familiars to the player? It's THEIR class feature, THEY can deal with it!" Nope, I even leave the control of cohorts and hirelings to them, as long as they do not use them for silly suicide actions.
Evil DM Mk3 06-27-07, 02:17 AM	OK your DM is stupid. There I said it. On another note beware "facts" about historical weapons. For example the obsidian blades (in fact closer to an obsidian edged club) used by the natives of america when the spanish invaded could decapitate a human, but there are only two records of it decaptiating a hourse (and several of it getting stuck in a hourse.) Be doubly aware of Katana "facts". Tests using katanas forged with historical techniques (that is to say as close to real life historical samurai weapons as possible.) got only a third of the way through a pig (used to simulate a human due to very similar physiology and build) even when swung by a super humanly strong machine. You could disembowel with one (and also with any european blade of the same period) but the ribs and spine make severing a person it two highly difficult, you are more likely to snag the blade and with a Katana that usualy means it breaks. (A european sword would usually bend)
Some_call_me_Tim 06-27-07, 11:13 AM	Salla "Am I the only DM that leaves control of mounts, animal companions, and familiars to the player? It's THEIR class feature, THEY can deal with it!" Nope, I even leave the control of cohorts and hirelings to them, as long as they do not use them for silly suicide actions. That's pretty much what I do, players control their animal companion/familiar/cohort/hireling/animals with me retaining veto power of any action considered suicidal or beyond their intelligence/training.
Phrennzy 06-27-07, 04:41 PM	Your DM was a ninny. Also, who's he to say that your druid won't raise the creature that may well be his best friend? Especially since he was brutally murdered. I smell railroading, and it smells like a rotten DM. Well, I think that about covers it.
Magare 07-05-07, 07:34 AM	Wait a minute. As a DM I can imagine quite a few things that might have happened there. Firstly, he said a similar thing happened to a PC some time ago. If that was off-screen that was a mistake. However, from that we can gather that a pretty high level assassin is after them. So the assassin has been following them for some time, and the companion is quite different then normal city mounts (its a big war goat of a sort, if I got it right). The assassin follows the party into the town and after some time notices that the party went to sleep and left the AC sleeping on his own. Using his own skills (hide/move silently) he gets to the barn and coup de grace ("slits the throat") of the AC. AC dies after a failed fort save behind the screen. The assassin smiles and thinks "one down, 4 (or whatever) to go". While frustrating for the player I don't see a problem with this. And I certainly don't see a reason to leave the game over this. Frustrating? yes, no doubt. Possibly done 100% by the rules? yes again. I however wouldn't have a problem in you ressing your AC, but the material cost isn't that easy to find, and maybe your DM has a different view of druids then I do. Keeping the hp hidden seems like a strict way of doing things, but also quite interesting actually. If thats a problem, talk to your DM, tell him you would prefer to see your hp. But as for the AC death I need to say it again, its quite possible he did it 100% legally and if my theory is correct its quite logical he did it
BW0222 07-05-07, 11:48 AM	wonlee76, You make it sound like an impossible task to sneak up on a sleeping animal in a world where magic is plentiful. Not saying that it is impossible, but at anything near APL 8, it stretches the imagination. How many horses are in the stable? Let's say a dozen, since the PCs alone could have brought five in by themselves. How many of these horses are actually asleep? If you consider that fact that the companion might not be a horse (say a dire wolf, tiger, lion, etc.), I'd be that at least some of the horses would be awake. If fact, most would be staring across the stable at the carnivore sleeping. Then of course it is dark. How can you see in the place? Even if you can see, don't you need to move from pen to pen, looking for the animal companion. If the pens are open, then exactly what concealment or cover do you have in the place to hide? You can't use silence or darkness, since any of the animals would react to becoming blind and/or defeaf. Assume greater invisibility. You can't use deep slumber on the awake horses because you'd have to get inside, determine which horses might be awake (somewhat hard if some are lying down), cast the spell, somehow target them all (they might not be close enough to each other, nor can you necessarily see them all, nor can you necessarily affect that number of hit dice, some could save, etc.) Then you have scent. Next, you have to coup-de-grace the animal companion. With a tiger has say 45hp. Assuming a mighty magical short bow, that is 3d6+9 damage. Where does the other 7d6 come from near APL 8? Even then, it isn't automatic. You could roll low. Next, nothing says that a coup attempt is itself silent. Finally... as you pointed out. Of course the animals would go nuts when they wake up to the smell of blood in the air but by then its too late. Which we know didn't happen, so somehow they have a way of avoiding that. Is it possible? Sure. Given the right magical items, some smart planning, and a sufficiently high level assassin, you could do it. A darkvision spell, hide from animals, a +3, +3 strength mighty bow, frost arrow, 11th-level rogue, spiking their food with a slow acting sleeping drug, maybe some etheralness ability, hide in plain sight, etc., etc. However, this brings up two issues. First, if such a person/creature/group exists which can do this, what happens if they do the same to the PCs? If they can take an animal companion out in a stable fun of horses, what prevents them from doing so to the PCs any time they wish? Is there any place which the PCs can reasonable secure themselves in which a person with that type of skill and resources can't get them? Second, if such a person/creature/group exists with those type of abilities, why are they killing animal companions? Why not just kill the PCs? Why go through all that effort just to kill an animal, when the same effort would get you a PC? Again, my advice, talk to the horses, reincarnate the companion, and talk to it, etc. and find out how the creature pulled this off. However, IMO, this will likely only show that the DM is involved in rank meta-gaming. She wanted to kill off the animal companion and only after the fact is she then coming up with the means at the BBEG disposal, and is then trying to song and dance around the obvious issues that this creates.
Magare 07-05-07, 12:27 PM	A rogue 5 / assassin 3 Has about 20 or so to hide and move silently. Probably even more. A horse has +4 to spot and listen. I think its quite safe to assume no one heard the assassin. If they did sniff him out they smelled.... a humanoid? Damn, no horse must be used to that smell. As for the AC, obviously he was asleep and the Assassin in the above example attacks him for..... what did the person above me say 3d6+9 damage? +5d6 sneak attack.... Check this out, if the DM rolled all 1's the coup de grace fort save dc would still be 27. An average DC of 47. The AC normally has A fort save of 7. And from the extra 2 HD the AC gets (4 if the OP is a halfling, didnt catch that) I doubt his saves get THAT much better. The difference between the AC and a PC is that one of the PCs should be on guard. That way the assassin wont attack until he gets a clear and easy kill, like he did here.
BW0222 07-05-07, 02:22 PM	Magare Has about 20 or so to hide and move silently. Probably even more. A horse has +4 to spot and listen. I think its quite safe to assume no one heard the assassin. Is the stable full of fog, smoke, or something? Otherwise, where does this person get concealment or cover to make a hide check in a barn? How does the door open without an animal seeing it? If they did sniff him out they smelled.... a humanoid? Damn, no horse must be used to that smell. Yes. When it is about to be fed or watered. Maybe I should let the rest of the horses know that it is feeding time? Maybe if I make some noise, I'll get fed first? Then again, I can't hear this person? Why is that? Why is he in the dark? Why can't I hear the water being poured or the grain bags being opened? Why am I being fed in the middle of the night? Wait, this isn't the stable boy (creature with scent and identify individuals by smell as easily as a normal person can by sight.) What is this person doing? Isn't that person going near the tiger? I better warn him! OMG... he's opening its pen. Maybe he is going to let him loose? Maybe I should let the other animals know? Maybe I should get out of here? What was that? It sounded like someone firing a bow? Say, isn't that blood I smell? Oh well... I'll just go back to sleep. What do you think the natural reaction to a horse is when something is sneaking up on it or things start being murdered in the stable? And of course nothing says that the tiger (or whatever) was actually asleep at that time, and it is pretty hard to tell without actually entering the stables and approaching the tiger. The difference between the AC and a PC is that one of the PCs should be on guard. That way the assassin wont attack until he gets a clear and easy kill, like he did here. You mean all the PCs were in one in room and had guards just outside the door? Sorry, if the PCs were that paraniod, they'd have the animal companion with them, be sleeping in the stables, warded the stable, etc. And so what if they did have a guard up? If this guy can sneak past a number of horses and kill a tiger (or something) without anyone noticing, why can't he sneak past a PC guard? I mean how many PCs have +10 spot and listen checks and the ranger can't be up 24/7. Climb though a window of the wizard's room -- coup-de-grac, DC 47 fort save, sorry you are dead. Move to the rogue. DC 47 fort save, sorry you are dead. Move to the fighters room, DC 47 fort save, sorry you are dead. etc. Sorry, any case you can make for being able to kill off the animal companion in a stable full of horses without anyone noticing, is just proof that they could do the exact same thing to the PCs.
Alexeduardo 07-05-07, 03:15 PM	next time stuff your horse with someting that triggers an epic exploding spell WITHOUT telling your DM let's see how he likes off camera action now that the assasins he sent accidentally leveled the material plane PD: if you follow my instructions then please have your horse avoid pointy spikes or any form of spikes for that matter
Magare 07-05-07, 03:30 PM	BW022, the first thing you have to realize is that the animal companion is a GOAT. Not a tiger, not a wild animal that tears people apart, its a goat. A strong bushy goat, but a goat none the less. Horses in a city barn are used to people coming in and out at all times. They dont think "why this isnt the time for my cup of tea, maybe I should make some noise" and even if they did a DC of 10 or so handle animal would solve that. Yes, a proper assassin would have that, I know mine did when I played in a assassin like campaign. Btw, have you ever been on a horse farm? Those racing horses that are used to only jockeys touching them normally dont even react to you as you pass them, pet them or whatever. This is even less then that. Yes, the blood thing is somewhat weird, there are many ways to explain it, but in general it is weird. However that has nothing to do with the ACs death. A PC that ticked someone influential enough to hire an assassin like this has to be paranoid yes. And yes, if the PCs dont start being more careful that same assassin is probably going to kill them one by one. If they sleep together, in the wild if you will, the assassin probably wont go after them. Even 2 PCs together means he will have a fight on his hands, no real assassin wants that, and if he can delay the attack he will. This was probably a subtle way the DM let the party know, you're not careful enough, he's coming after you, and if you dont get your act together, he WILL get you
Radijs 07-05-07, 06:24 PM	The blood thing can be easily explained. The DM isn't an expert on animals and didn't realize that something like that would happen. (its news to me) And he didn't want to rewind the whole situation when it was asked for. And for god's sake. Its just an animal companion. Go and get even with the bastard who did this and go roleplay instead of whine here.
Ack 07-05-07, 06:25 PM	Note that horses sleep standing up. So first the assassin has to find the fricken goat :P
SoulLord 07-05-07, 07:03 PM	mmmm If I were handling a band to perform that deed and considering they are lvl 8. wait until they are asleep and cast silence (happened before) send the rogue with the potion of pass without trace(no scent) to the sleeping horse and cdg him with the short sword. silence 2nd lvl spell 3rd lvl cleric rogue short sword 1d6 + 3d6 SA = 2d6+3d6=5d6 dmg the coup de grace save for the horse is high enough that is likely to fail. then set up the trap and waitfor the pc
DX2052 07-05-07, 07:07 PM	Why has no one mentioned the use of a hammergun yet?
Tytalus 07-05-07, 08:14 PM	Another good reason to not have animal companions or familiars. It seems to only apply in situations with incompetent DM's, if you base your statement on this particular case.
Illithid_Tentacles 07-05-07, 09:03 PM	Why has no one mentioned the use of a hammergun yet? I second this suggestion.
Fatalis_902 07-05-07, 10:09 PM	Why has no one mentioned the use of a hammergun yet? You know something, I just noticed that. I'm usually the one who suggests it if it hasn't been by the time I join the thread. Therefore, I shall third the idea of hammergunning this DM. In the face. With a hammergun. That shoots hammers. The hammers will also be fired from the gun.