Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quenditar 03-12-04, 03:29 PM	What do you think the alignments of these anime characters are? Lina Inverse (Slayers) Zelgadis Graywords (Slayers) Washuu (Tenchi Muyo) Piccolo (Dragonball Z) Inuyasha (Inuyasha) Excel Excel (Excel Saga) Zechs Merquise (Gundam Wing) Komagata Yumi (Rurouni Kenshin) Saitou Hajime (Rurouni Kenshin) Yuukyuuzan Anji (Rurouni Kenshin) San (Princess Mononoke) Jounouchi Sai (Angelic Layer) Asuka Langley (NGE) Unit 01 (NGE) Tendou Nabiki (Ranma 1/2) Vash the Stampede (Trigun) Himura Battousai (Rurouni Kenshin)
Almast 03-12-04, 04:07 PM	Just my opinions, but... Lina, Chaotic Neutral. Zel, True Neutral. Inu-Yasha, Chaotic Good. Excel, Lawful Neutral/Stupid. Saitou, Lawful Neutral Anji runs the gamot of Lawful... If you mean him as an enemy, Lawful Evil. Nabiki, Neutral Good.
CrimsonRyoko 03-12-04, 04:18 PM	Washuu (Tenchi Muyo) Chaotic Good, she has a good heart, but if you do something to someone she loves, hel hath no fury. Piccolo (Dragonball Z) NG - see above, but alot less chaotic, almost LG, but not totally lawful, and a bit self absorbed. Excel Excel (Excel Saga) Chaotic - just chaotic. . . . San (Princess Mononoke) TN/NG - she does what she has to to save what she loves, and cares only for the forests. Asuka Langley (NGE) CG - she means well, but her past makes her too closed up to really show how she feels, so she never acts how you would think she should. Unit 01 (NGE) - Not enough char development for the actual unit to say, but prolly TN Those are the main ones i paid enough attention to to give an opinion on.
the Horc 03-12-04, 04:34 PM	Zechs Marquise: Lawful evil. Loyal, honorable, willing to screw over a lot of people for the advancement of his cause. Hell, that puts Lady Une and Treize in there too. Quite frankly, they are willing to go to great lengths and propagate horrible acts of evil, just to advance their cause which they believe is good, but from I get in the whole Gundam Wing saga, I find their beliefs and how they go about promoting them inherently flawed. However, I also would claim that Zechs and Une are both headcases too.
Mr. Fahrenheit 03-12-04, 05:19 PM	I'll try to help with the NGE characters as those are the ones I'm most familiar with. Unit 1: Neutral Evil. Whenever it gets free will it starts cannibalizing and ruthlessly tearing apart its enemies. Somewhat hard to pin down though. Which actions are the Eva(evil) and which are the soul within it(good)? Asuka: I agree with chaotic good. She wants to win so badly that she doesn't care how she does it. Not so good at keeping her word either :P She gets points on the good scale for crusading against the 3rd impact and helping Shinji with his physics homework ^_^
Mousse 03-12-04, 06:11 PM	Lina Inverse (Slayers)- Chaotic Good with Neutral tendencies Zelgadis Graywords (Slayers)- True Neutral Inuyasha (Inuyasha)- Chaotic Goof Excel Excel (Excel Saga)- Lawful Neutral Tendou Nabiki (Ranma 1/2)- Lawful Evil Embarassingly though, I can't recall San or any of the Kenshin characters at the moment.
Vaalingrade Ashland 03-12-04, 10:03 PM	I have all the Slayers characters and Hellsing characters typed up, but the boards are being screwwy :nonono:
Korhal_IV 03-12-04, 10:54 PM	Originally posted by the Horc Zechs Marquise: Lawful evil. Loyal, honorable, willing to screw over a lot of people for the advancement of his cause. Hell, that puts Lady Une and Treize in there too. Quite frankly, they are willing to go to great lengths and propagate horrible acts of evil, just to advance their cause which they believe is good, but from I get in the whole Gundam Wing saga, I find their beliefs and how they go about promoting them inherently flawed. However, I also would claim that Zechs and Une are both headcases too. Oh, definitely headcases. That's half the fun. I think every PC I've made since then owes something to Zechs. Personally, I don't think there's an evil component to Zechs until we get to the endgame. Though he's fighting on the wrong side, he's always fighting for peace, for his honor and for his friends. Remember the Antartica duel? Lawful Neutral, right there, obeying his personal code of honor and his chosen superiors against the greater power of the Alliance. At the end, he's definitely evil. He's still fighting for peace, but when he's settled on mass genocide as the only way to accomplish it... :rolleyes:
the_fools_wildhunt 03-13-04, 12:46 AM	Saito Hajime: Hard line Lawful Neutral. Good and Evil mean nothing to him, only law. Washuu: Chaotic Good. Crazy but good-hearted. Tendo Nabiki: Chaotic Good. Can come across as self interested and selfish but is loyal and looks out for her friends. San: True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral. Good and Evil mean nothing to her, just peace of her forest and freedom. Would post on the other Kenshin Characters but not sure of who they are. Anya: The stripped armed guy??? (Lawful Neutral if it is) Yumi: The owner of the tea house??? (Neutral Good if it is) Oh, can I ask why?? Are you going to have all these characters in one game????? Scary.
ssvegeta555 03-13-04, 12:52 AM	Originally posted by Mousse Inuyasha (Inuyasha)- Chaotic Goof Funniest typo ever.
Bromabaz Silvertwister 03-13-04, 02:25 AM	Washuu (Tenchi Muyo) CN, she uses everyone and thing to her own ends, regardless of if they want to or not. She's nearly blown up the universe a dozen times, but she's not evil. Piccolo (Dragonball Z) LE to LN. a former BBEG, he spent a year alone in the woods with his greatest enemy's kid... countless slash fiction has flowed ever since. Inuyasha (Inuyasha) CN to CG, He didn't want to help anyone in the begining, but his heart grows over the series. Zechs Merquise (Gundam Wing) LE, he's the Judge of the series, ready to sacrafice millions in order to get what he wants. the fact that he'd kill so many makes him evil. San (Princess Mononoke) LN: Another Judge, she protects the forest, no matter the cost to herself. those she sees as evil must die, but her loyality cannot be contested. Her word given, her word kept. Tendou Nabiki (Ranma 1/2) CN: Will sell out anyone for the right amount of money, but charging a lot more for dirt on her friends.
Quenditar 03-13-04, 02:29 AM	Actually, no, I don't intend to use these characters in a game. I chose them because I thought their alignments might be hard to agree on (I've seen Lina Inverse described as CG, CN, and CE) and so it would help me with borderline alignment calls (i.e. if a fireball-flinging, property-obliterating, omnipotent-goddess-summoning sorceress is CN, then a CE character has to be morally worse than her). And for some of them I was just curious about the consensus. P.S. Anji is the huge (~7') monk who teaches Sano the Futae no Kiwami. Yumi is Shishio's lover, the woman in the loose-fitting kimono. The one wearing stripes is Hannya of the Oniwabanshuu and the owner of the Akabeko restaurant is Sekihara Tae.
Skyrocket 03-13-04, 02:34 AM	Lina Inverse: CG Zelgadis Graywords: CN Washuu: CG Inuyasha: CG Excel Excel: Cg Zechs Merquise: LN Komagata Yumi: NE Saitou Hajime: LN Yuukyuuzan Anji: LN San: CG Asuka Langley: CG Tendou Nabiki: LN
Kupokpok 03-14-04, 05:00 PM	Il Parratzzo!: LE - LN FLCL (in general) : CN Haruhara Haruko: CN all the way Naota: LN - N Konti (robot): LN - LG
Felgraf2 03-14-04, 08:25 PM	I think I'm gonna have to argue with whoever said Excel was Chaotic Good. Let's see.. she muders someone twice, and accidentally starts a fire and then leaves a friend to die in it. In the same episode. And her good concious murders her evil one. :P No, I don't think she's chaotic good. (Nabeshin might be, though.) some musings of some other anime charachters: Vash the Stampede (Trigun): This one's probably obviously Chaotic Good. I merely felt like mentioning him because I believe he's also an excellent example of an exhalted character. Millions 'Knives': NE-CE. Definately. Legato Bluesummers: Evil, but not sure where he is on the law/chaos grid. Xellos: CE, with neutral tendencies. But heck, why limit this to just anime characters? Let's shove in some from books, too. Could be fun. :) Lord Havelock Venatari, The Patrician (From the Discworld novels): LE, definately. He shows, however, that LE does not necessarily mean 'Bad', or that they cannot work with a 'Good' charachter.. He will make sure Ankh-Morpohrk stays safe and smooth running, regardless of what it takes. (Assasinations, and the like.).
Aramil_silverwind 03-15-04, 03:37 AM	Lina Inverse (Slayers) - CN Zelgadis Graywords (Slayers) - LG Washuu (Tenchi Muyo) - Never seen the Anime Piccolo (Dragonball Z) - CG Inuyasha (Inuyasha) - CG Excel Excel (Excel Saga) - Never seen the anime Zechs Merquise (Gundam Wing) - NG Komagata Yumi (Rurouni Kenshin) - Can't recall the character Saitou Hajime (Rurouni Kenshin) - LN / LG Yuukyuuzan Anji (Rurouni Kenshin) - Can't recall the character San (Princess Mononoke) - Can't recall the Character Jounouchi Sai (Angelic Layer) - Never seen the anime Asuka Langley (NGE) - CG Unit 01 (NGE) - Can it reall even have an alignment that is discernable? If nothing else, I woudl call it Neutral Tendou Nabiki (Ranma 1/2) - Been while scince I've seen it, sry.
Edymnion 03-15-04, 10:43 AM	You know, we do have a d20 Anime board now, right? http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=444 You know, since this really doesn't have anything to do with "Whats A Player to Do"...
Felgraf2 03-15-04, 10:59 AM	Actually, it sorta does, as the person later said they created this thread not to use the characters, but to use these characters as examples of specific alignments. I threw Vash in there because I feel he was an excellent example of an Exhalted character, for instance.
the Horc 03-15-04, 12:08 PM	Originally posted by Felgraf2 I think I'm gonna have to argue with whoever said Excel was Chaotic Good. Let's see.. she muders someone twice, and accidentally starts a fire and then leaves a friend to die in it. In the same episode. And her good concious murders her evil one. :P No, I don't think she's chaotic good. (Nabeshin might be, though.) Excel is an excellent example of Chaotic Stupid.
crazysamaritan 03-15-04, 03:13 PM	Originally posted by ssvegeta555 quote: ------------------------------------ Originally posted by Mousse Inuyasha (Inuyasha)- Chaotic Goof ------------------------------------- Funniest typo ever. I don't think it's a typo. Two words; "Down, boy!" On-Topic: Piccolo [DB]: Lawful Evil, bent on taking over the world. Piccolo [DBZ, goku dead]: Alignment changes to LN. He has killed his greatest enemy, but there is someone who wishes to destroy the world he wishes to own. To repay his enemy for helping him, he trains his son. Piccolo[DBZ, training finished]: Alignment changes to LG. Gohan is pure good, and the involvement Piccolo has had with him has had an unalterable effect. The two had to change. Gohan gained courage, and Piccolo learned kindness. Piccolo[DBZ, fuse with Nail]: Alignment begins change to NG. Nail was LG as well, but had different priorities. Their personality conflicts, along with the knowledge of Kami's importance (which came to a head during the Buu saga) forced Piccolo to do some deep thinking once the battle with frieza was over. Piccolo[DBZ, fusion of Gotenks]: His alignment is NG, but with the chaos of trying to control two kids who are both stronger than him... let's just say he probably started praying for order.
bjorntfh 03-15-04, 04:17 PM	Saitoh is DEFINATELY LE. Watch his fight against the blind guy in when he explains his motivations for killing "evil" people. He says he kills evil people because he can get away with it, without fearing punishment for his actions. That's not even remotely LN. That's LE.
Serene Selene 03-16-04, 04:11 AM	I would absolutely classify Lina Inverse as nothing other than Chaotic Good. Despite the fact she has blown apart countless towns (I wonder if there's huge tracks of land devoid of civilization on the map?), she's never -really- killed any of the citizens, at least shown. Episode 1 of the TV series shows this (the villagers are still alive and drive her off, which she could of killed them). She is also nick named the bandit killer, has killed countless mazoku (demons), trolls, monsters, etc etc. She honestly cares for her friends (A good quality), yet runs from the law (chaotic). As for Zelgadis Graywords, I'd have to say he's True Neutral. I can see where he could be classified as a Lawful Neutral, or even Lawful Good (though I think that would be best reserved for Amelia), I believe TN works best.
bjorntfh 03-16-04, 10:04 AM	Washu... umm... Chaotic Neutral with Good tendencies... sometimes? I mean after all she has destroyed entire galaxies "for science" and although she does try to protect Tenchi, it's more infatuation than a sense of philanthropy. I would say that Excell is Chaotic Stupid while Hyatt is ummm, Dead Good? She's realy nice, and kind, but the whole 15 second lifespan kinda screws with the effectiveness of the image.
Quenditar 03-16-04, 11:26 AM	Okay, this is what I've collected so far: Lina: Any chaotic (the person arguing she's CE is on another thread here) Zelgadis: True neutral, lawful neutral, lawful good Washuu: Chaotic neutral, chaotic good Piccolo: Changing over time, from LE to NG Inuyasha (Inuyasha): Chaotic Good Excel: Lawful Neutral, Lawful Stupid, Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Stupid Zechs: Lawful evil, lawful neutral, neutral good Yumi: Neutral evil Saitou: Any lawful Anji: Any lawful (changes over time) San: Any neutral (except NE), chaotic good Jounouchi Sai: You ought to watch Angelic Layer, it's good! Asuka: Chaotic good Unit 01: True neutral, neutral evil Nabiki: Any lawful, any good, chaotic neutral So the only people everyone agreed on are Inuyasha, Yumi (because only one person remembered her - I personally think she's LN or NN), and Asuka. I knew the alignment system was up to interpretation...but I didn't think it was this variable between people.
KitsuneSoup 03-16-04, 02:24 PM	Lina Inverse (Slayers) -- Chaotic Neutral She's only good when it's her life on the line. Otherwise, she's a manipulative, lying, backstabbing sneak. Zelgadis Graywords (Slayers) -- Neutral Zelgadis does exactly what has to be done and the rest of the universe be damned. If it wasn't for his love for Amelia (LG), he wouldn't even be close to nice. Ever. Washuu (Tenchi Muyo) -- Neutral Evil For the Glove of Od, her goal in life is the destruction of everything! She manipulates matter, combines people with fruit, and generally acts only out of self-interest. Piccolo (Dragonball Z) -- Lawful Neutral Sure, he used to be Lawful Evil, but he's not really ever good. Tendou Nabiki (Ranma 1/2) -- Neutral Evil She all about the bling-bling. KitsuneSoup
bjorntfh 03-16-04, 03:29 PM	The problem with Washu being NE is that if you pay attention to the series she's one of the three fates. (Tokimi, Washu and Sasami are the three.) She is either the second or third fate, but there's enough circumstancal evidence (Tokimi being seen as the one who Washu fears will end all her fun, etc.) that Washu is middle one, thus her nature is to measure how long things are to last in order for them to be destroyed. It's not that she's psychotically wants to destroy things... she just likes to see what it takes for them to break. That's chaotic neutral curious rather than neutral evil destructive.
Feathercircle 03-16-04, 07:08 PM	I'll have to agree on LE sliding into LN for Piccolo, LN/LE but insane for Zechs, and some form of neutral on the good/evil axis for San... I don't really have much to say for any of those, though. Everyone's more or less listed the same reasons that I would, and I don't see the point in being repetetive. Now, on to what I don't quite agree with. Be warned, there WILL be spoilers. I've got to take issue with BOTH of the alignments proposed for the Eva characters. Asuka may be saving the world, but she isn't fighting with that as her reason- or even to protect anyone she cares about. She fights to prove herself and to bask in the praise of others- she fights because it's how she feels that she's a worthwhile person. Her motives aren't evil, but they certainly aren't altruistic either- and she's absolutely godawful to Shinji, to the point where it borders almost on sadistic. Granted, Shinji is sort of pathetic, but he still doesn't deserve the treatment he gets from her. Helping him with his physics homework once doesn't really make up for the rest of the crap she puts him through. I'd peg her at CN. Unit 01 as NE? Is this from the same school of thought which gives us mindless zombies and skeletons as 'always neutral evil'? I don't really see the Evangelions as having enough intelligence to make any sort of moral or ethical decisions in the slightest. There's a form of awareness there and self-motivation, but not a fully sentient mind... You see 01 acting of its own will only a few times, and it NEVER tries to wrest control away from its pilot, rather, it acts on its own when he's been disabled and can no longer act for it. Notice also that EVERY time it berserks, it's ALWAYS to protect Shinji. Hell hath no fury like a mother defending her offspring. The only time we ever see 01 acting in a sadistic manner is when Gendo triggers the dummy plug- and that's still not Unit 01 acting on its own. Speaking of dummy plugs and the like, I'd like to hear what alignment people would peg Kaworu/Tabris at.
Serene Selene 03-17-04, 01:47 AM	Lina Inverse (Slayers) -- Chaotic Neutral She's only good when it's her life on the line. Otherwise, she's a manipulative, lying, backstabbing sneak. I have to disagree. There's countless times where she has helped people, and not just because her life was on the line.
wdarkk 03-17-04, 02:28 AM	I'm positive she has some sort of "Mastery of Subdual" thing that lets her choose to deal subdual damage. Martina lived through a direct Dragon Slave hit.
Bluebrush 03-17-04, 09:12 AM	Originally posted by wdarkk I'm positive she has some sort of "Mastery of Subdual" thing that lets her choose to deal subdual damage. Martina lived through a direct Dragon Slave hit. Subdual spell feat. Tome and blood. All the damage, none of the deadness. As for alignment, For Lina I'd say CG with CN tendencies. Lina's willing to blast her way to the loot when there's small potatoes on the line (Like, say, bandits) but she normally doesn't outright rob people who aren't evil. She is also occasionally willing to help people out for no reward, though generally only if they're weak but good. Naga, however, is exactly Chaotic Netral, and Gourry is Lawful Good. As for Excel, she does have some strong lawful evil traits. She's incredibly loyal and dedicated, but almost completely amoral. He behaviour is better described as zany rather than chaotic.
msoya 03-17-04, 09:51 AM	Originally posted by Feathercircle Speaking of dummy plugs and the like, I'd like to hear what alignment people would peg Kaworu/Tabris at. POSSIBLE EVANGELION SPOILERS All the Angels and Evangelions are neutral. They're pretty much non-sentient, remember? Eva-01 has a soul, and some free will, but it's obviously not evil. The only Angel who shows any free will is Tabris... and e's a special case. Still, I wouldn't call eir evil, because e's willing to give his life to allow humanity to continue. The dummy plugs are likewise neutral. Lack of free will makes them effectively animals, and animals in D&D are neutral. Well, that's my opinion anyway.
Remnant 03-17-04, 03:18 PM	Because I can: Spike: Somwhere between chaotic neutral and chaotic good, leaning heavily toward chaotic good. Jet: Lawful Neutral, edging toward Lawful Good, based on his personality and behavior. Faye: Chaotic Neutral all the way. Doesn't have the tendency to do good that the above two do- is more concerned with her own well being and will gleefully break deals and defy authority. Ed: Chaotic Neutral, easy. Maybe even chaotic insane- one of the creators says that Ed "percieves the world through feeling." Viscious: Neutral Evil- he uses order when it supports his ends, and destroys it when it does not.
obrysii 03-25-04, 08:00 PM	Zechs eventually becomes NG in Endless Waltz...
DrakeRunner 03-25-04, 09:21 PM	*sigh* Lawful is not Lawbiding. Chaotic is not Rulebreaker. Neither of those alignments have anything to do with society. They have to do with how the person structures their life. If they live by whim and fancy, they're Chaotic. If they live their life with structure and order, they're Lawful. Lawful is not Government Worshipping Stick In The Mud. Chaotic is not Anarchistic Psychohead. Edyminion: Report it then. And Zechs was still quite Lawful Evil. Twisted as he was, he still wanted peace. And this peace worked just as well as his DESTROY EARTH plan. And I just HAVE to argue with you Felgraf2. Vash The Stampede is one of the most extreme examples of Lawful Good I have ever seen. He has a code that he lives and breathes by. When he violates his personal code, he willingly gives himself to an angry mob, desperate for atonement. Knives is Lawful Evil. He's hardly Chaotic or Neutral. He wants the humans to die, and Vash to pay. He had a complex plan for it all. Chaotics don't do complex plans. Heck, most of the Trigun characters are quite lawful. Although I'd peg Wolfwood at Neutral Good, Milly at Chaotic Good, and Meryl at Neutral Good.
wdarkk 03-25-04, 10:05 PM	For _all_ of Endless Waltz, Zechs acted good. Remember the way he changed suddenly at the _very_ end of the main series and aborted his own destroy the world plan?
Mr. Fahrenheit 03-25-04, 11:05 PM	Originally posted by Feathercircle Unit 01 as NE? Is this from the same school of thought which gives us mindless zombies and skeletons as 'always neutral evil'? I don't really see the Evangelions as having enough intelligence to make any sort of moral or ethical decisions in the slightest. There's a form of awareness there and self-motivation, but not a fully sentient mind... You see 01 acting of its own will only a few times, and it NEVER tries to wrest control away from its pilot, rather, it acts on its own when he's been disabled and can no longer act for it. Notice also that EVERY time it berserks, it's ALWAYS to protect Shinji. Hell hath no fury like a mother defending her offspring. The only time we ever see 01 acting in a sadistic manner is when Gendo triggers the dummy plug- and that's still not Unit 01 acting on its own. What about when Unit 1 cannibalizes Zeruel (14th angel)? Shinji no longer needed protecting as the angel was already down and out. That was just evil. Other than that I could go either way on the issue.
Felgraf2 03-26-04, 11:24 AM	Actually, yes, you're probably right about Vash being LG. Either way, He's most definately Exalted. :) However, he also seems somewhat capricious in some ways.. it's really hard to tell which he is. :) He has the strong moral code when it comes to killing, but in other aspect's he seems to be a bit of an on-the-fly kind of guy. Perhaps Neutral Good fits him as well, I'm not sure. I don't think Wolfwood started out Neutral Good, however. He was probably True Neutral with good Tendancies when he first met Vash (Given who Wolfwood was working for... I won't state explicitly who, snce I doubt everyone here has seen the Anime, and it's an interesting twist. :) ), and eventually came out Neutral Good due to his interactions with Mr. Stampede.
Lina_Inverse 03-26-04, 12:47 PM	Lina:CN at start CG by the end.by the end of the show she really is trying to save people,early on she just likes to blow up the badguys. Zelgadis:LN,he >hates< all the chaos around him it drives him bonkers,this shows a lawfull alingment.but he is motivated by...enlightend self intrest,not evil but not good. Amelia:LG then NG.she willing joins the chaos of lina and goury to fit end and learns that codes arent always the best way to do good. Goury:NG hes good and well good. Xellos:LE...LE...LE.he will kill his friends on an order,it dosent matter.and yes lina and crew are friends or his version of it,the way he acted when valgaav says no shows he didnt want to kill lina but orders were orders.(which incedently is one of the signs lina has moved to CG she forgave him) Filia:LG,yep LG. Washuu:CN,shes insane but not evil.yes she trys to build things to blow up the universe but its standard scientific dont care what it could do but can I build it. Inuyasha:CG,he may act tough but hes a softie. Kenshin:LG,he lives and breaths a code and strict order.and is definitly good now. Vash:vash is what exalted charecters should strive towards,he has a code which he lives and breaths but is an off the cough kind of guy.but when it came down to it he would give up his code to save people.and after doing so is stronger for it and accepts that you cant always see the best solution.Vow of Peace breaks it then atones for it because he had no other option.(yes i realize he shoots people and rule wise that breaks vow of peace but you know he has it.) evangelion:TN it may have a disgustingly high charisma but is wayyy too stuipid to really decide moral things,and no cannabilism is not evil espilly considering WHY the eva did.
Millennium 03-26-04, 04:34 PM	Lina Inverse (Slayers) - Chaotic Neutral. Zelgadis Graywords (Slayers) - Angsty Good... I mean Lawful Good Piccolo (Dragonball Z) - Neutral Evil (but not particularly malevolent; this reflects his attitude more than his actions) Excel Excel (Excel Saga) - Neutral due to insanity. Zechs Merquise (Gundam Wing) - Neutral. He's a pacifist and a violent psychopath; that's a little hard to pull off and renders him too schizophrenic to be anything but Neutral. Saitou Hajime (Rurouni Kenshin) - Lawful Evil (again, not particularly malevolent, but he recognizes himself to be evil, and that's good enough for me) San (Princess Mononoke) - Neutral. She cares only that nature can take its course; the rest doesn't concern her. Tendou Nabiki (Ranma 1/2) - Lawful Evil, and loving every minute of it.
Millennium 03-26-04, 04:44 PM	Originally posted by bjorntfh Saitoh is DEFINATELY LE. Watch his fight against the blind guy in when he explains his motivations for killing "evil" people. He says he kills evil people because he can get away with it, without fearing punishment for his actions. That's not even remotely LN. That's LE. No, that's not it. You need to go back to the Japanese to get what really happens there. It is incredibly difficult to translate properly into English, but when Usui asks Saitou how long he can keep going on with his code, Saitou's reply is translated "Until I die, of course". But in the Japanese, he uses the same words from his code. What they should have translated it as is: "Until I am destroyed." That's the essence of the code of the Shinsen Gumi: become a monster to fight the monsters. You slay evil immediately and indiscriminately, but in doing so you become evil, and so one day somebody will come for you, and you will deserve it for the things you have done. Saitou knows this and accepts it as worthwhile; it's as integral a part of Aku Soku Zan as the words themselves. This is why Saitou is LE. He has made a conscious choice to accept evil, so that evil may collapse upon itself, with his body as the last one on top of the pile. It's a type of evil you don't often see played in D&D, but it is most definitely there.
Bromabaz Silvertwister 03-27-04, 12:10 AM	Originally posted by DrakeRunner And Zechs was still quite Lawful Evil. Twisted as he was, he still wanted peace. And this peace worked just as well as his DESTROY EARTH plan. [/B] Well, he didn't plan on destroying the planet, he wanted to make a war so huge and terrible that no one would ever want to wage war again. sending a satilite into a city wouldn't kill the planet, it wasn't dense enough for that, it would kill a bunch of people and wipe out a good chunk of Austrilia, sure. but that's the scale he thought he needed. endless waltz just showed that he didn't want another tiny war lead by tiny minded people. off topic, but I have to say it: I loved that little girl, she brought that whiney little emptyheaded blond down a peg...
the Horc 03-27-04, 12:23 AM	Originally posted by Bromabaz Silvertwister Well, he didn't plan on destroying the planet, he wanted to make a war so huge and terrible that no one would ever want to wage war again. sending a satilite into a city wouldn't kill the planet, it wasn't dense enough for that, it would kill a bunch of people and wipe out a good chunk of Austrilia, sure. but that's the scale he thought he needed. endless waltz just showed that he didn't want another tiny war lead by tiny minded people. off topic, but I have to say it: I loved that little girl, she brought that whiney little emptyheaded blond down a peg... Actually, near the end, he was going to destroy the planet. Not Death Star style, but he ordered the ship to crash on the planet and therefore cause the Earth to become incapable of supporting human life within a few years (huge ship, huge reactors). All because he misguidedly believed that the colonies were more peaceful. Yeah, the original operation Meteor was REAL peaceful. Even if he believed he was doing good, he was doing evil, on a massive scale, and blowing up large quantities of people and destroying a natural resource as rare and precious as the Earth does not make me think he's deserving of the title of a "good guy".
wdarkk 03-27-04, 02:38 AM	When he blew up the ship's last reactor at the very end, he had repented.
wiz_omega 03-27-04, 03:53 PM	What's Vash from trigun's alinement? I'm thinking CG. :schemes:
Felgraf2 03-27-04, 05:28 PM	I think we just had that argument, if you scroll up. :P Someone pointed out he could also be taken as LG, since he sticks very, very strongly to his own personal code (I.e., DON'T KILL). I'm not entirely certain that counts, however, as it may simply be an example of his exhalted-ness (As he is definately a shoe-in for an exhalted character). He also seems somewhat capricious and fickle at times, but then, it's also hard to tell whether or not he's actually like that, or if it was all a facade he put up. So Vash is a little hard to categorize on the law/chaos aspect. (Although he does often end up *causing* massive ammounts of Chaos wherever he goes, but then again, it's not completely his fault.)
Bromabaz Silvertwister 03-28-04, 03:13 AM	Originally posted by the Horc Actually, near the end, he was going to destroy the planet. Not Death Star style, but he ordered the ship to crash on the planet and therefore cause the Earth to become incapable of supporting human life within a few years (huge ship, huge reactors). All because he misguidedly believed that the colonies were more peaceful. Yeah, the original operation Meteor was REAL peaceful. Even if he believed he was doing good, he was doing evil, on a massive scale, and blowing up large quantities of people and destroying a natural resource as rare and precious as the Earth does not make me think he's deserving of the title of a "good guy". I never called him a good guy, LN or CN tops. As for the "slow death of the the earth" thing, I doubt that it had the mass to do any kind of real damage. If a single controled blast from heero's "over-compensation gun" could knock out a colony (something built to last as it were.) then something smaller like the ship wouldn't do any real harm. No more then say, all the debris from the space battle making it's way back to earth. And reactors aren't big fans of outside heat sources. So there was a good chance it would explode on re-entry. and lest we forget: human lives have a very low resell rate, and the colonies were already self sufficent.
Henry Hankovich 03-28-04, 04:20 AM	Asuka Langley-Soryu Definitely Chaotic Evil. For the bulk of the series anyway. She's 'domesticated' enough that she's not trying to take over the world, or anything, but almost every action she takes is based on an almost sociopathic selfishness. She basically doesn't care who she hurts, or how, as long as it makes her feel good about herself. She has the capacity to be 'better' than that, but that doesn't change what she is. Seeing her as being other than Evil is just wishful thinking.
Mr. Fahrenheit 03-28-04, 04:24 PM	I sincerely doubt that's she'd be considered evil by DnD's Black and White standards. I agree she's pretty cruel to Shinji sometimes but I wouldn't put her on par with Demogorgan, Prince of Demons.
Henry Hankovich 03-29-04, 03:13 AM	Yes, she's not aggressively evil, BBEG style--it's just that her actions and motivations can't really be characterized as anything else. You don't have to be spectacularly evil--hell, you don't even have to do anything outwardly evil at all--to have a fundamentally evil attitude. Of course, I'm of the opinion that all young children are intrinsically Evil (i.e., self-centered and incapable of empathizing with others), until they (first) are reined in with discipline, and (later) eventually learn that other people are 'real' and should be treated like one wants onesself to be treated. Asuka never really makes it to that second part, even if she's housebroken enough that she 'behaves' most of the time.
Mr. Fahrenheit 03-29-04, 04:05 AM	I think the gulf between moderately unkind actions and the kind of evil which is implicit in the label of Chaotic Evil is much too vast to allow for Asuka to be called evil. At least in the DnD universe. In our world, I still say she gets off the hook for her exceptionally troubled past and tragic upbringing, as well as her adolescence. I meet people like Asuka every day (pity me) and I can't truthfully say that being a jerk (harsher language is called for but I cannot use it) qualifies one as Evil.
the Horc 03-29-04, 04:30 AM	Originally posted by Bromabaz Silvertwister I never called him a good guy, LN or CN tops. As for the "slow death of the the earth" thing, I doubt that it had the mass to do any kind of real damage. If a single controled blast from heero's "over-compensation gun" could knock out a colony (something built to last as it were.) then something smaller like the ship wouldn't do any real harm. No more then say, all the debris from the space battle making it's way back to earth. And reactors aren't big fans of outside heat sources. So there was a good chance it would explode on re-entry. and lest we forget: human lives have a very low resell rate, and the colonies were already self sufficent. My understanding was that the Libra was the size of a colony, and those things could get to over 20 Km (or was it miles?) in length. That's not some paltry lesser asteroid. Also, they mentioned that when the Peacemillian rammed it, that should the Libra now hit the planet, their combined everything would set the Earth into a permanent downwards spiral. I haven't seen the show in a while nor do I have a desire to check (both because I don't know what time it's on, if it's on, and also, with the amount of repetition of words that show has, and the lack of Pronouns, I'm not missing it. At least in Inu Yasha, they only do it to dog boy)
wdarkk 03-29-04, 05:01 AM	I'm pretty sure the idea was that the reactors would cause nuclear winter. I was pretty sure that the ship was much smaller than a Colony, but now I'm not since I'm trying to remember how big mobile suits are in comparison with the colonies and the ships.
Bromabaz Silvertwister 03-30-04, 08:58 PM	huh, I don't remeber if they said it would cause that or not. haven't seen it in over a year. still, if the reactors were that powerful and zechs stabs them with a sword, (that's the libra right? i don't remember wich ship that was.) you would think it would cause a winter anyway, since the reactor blew up so close to the planet. But I'll never try and question the "Last Second Save" reality again. the thing that gets me about Inuyasha (haven't read all of it yet, so if I'm wrong oh well) is that I think that miroku and sango are kagome's ancestors. I don't know why, but I just think they are...
the Horc 03-31-04, 01:21 PM	Originally posted by Bromabaz Silvertwister huh, I don't remeber if they said it would cause that or not. haven't seen it in over a year. still, if the reactors were that powerful and zechs stabs them with a sword, (that's the libra right? i don't remember wich ship that was.) you would think it would cause a winter anyway, since the reactor blew up so close to the planet. But I'll never try and question the "Last Second Save" reality again. No, the first ship was taken out my Zech's (well, actually Treize's) overcpmpensation sword. Heero took out the piece that fell off the Libra with his overcompensation gun. the thing that gets me about Inuyasha (haven't read all of it yet, so if I'm wrong oh well) is that I think that miroku and sango are kagome's ancestors. I don't know why, but I just think they are... I think it's because all the main characters on that show look exactly alike.:D Honestly, Kagome and Kikyo look more different that Kikyo and most of the others, and that's only because they have rampantly different hairstyles.
Koga:The ninja trick 03-31-04, 02:05 PM	I'm a big fan of DB so The Koga would be a master at this. 8) Piccolo Diamou: (His first appereance as a "demon") Chaotic evil. He had two purposes: One, to not so much take over the world. Just leave it in utter ruin. And two, wish on the dragonballs to restore his youth. As he knew he couldn't directly kill Kami without killing himself. Piccolo Majunior. (As we know him.) Lawful evil. He was dedicated to avenging his "father's" death by destroying Goku. Also he wanted to dominate the world, not destroy it utterly. DBZ--Lawful neutral. After some time spending with a sweet boy and greather threats outside thier world, Piccolo grew more relaxed and focused but still had a bit of a mean streak and an arrogant attitude. Picconail. (Piccolo/Nail fused.) Neutral good. At this time Piccolo really started becoming a good guy. Though I say neutral and not lawful because he did take a few risks when telling the others about Trunks from the future but not all of the truth. This left Vegeta with enough clues to put two and two together that his son was infact the saiyan from the future. Just Piccolo. (Heh, reminds me of Will&Grace.. "Just Jack!" :P ) Lawful good. Finnally Piccolo fused with Kami to gain some more strength and Krillin did not know wether to refer to him as Piccolo or Kami or something else and he said "Just call me Piccolo". Though at the tournament he did put his name down as "Majunior" as he did in DB when he enterd the same tournament.
Quenditar 04-03-04, 01:38 AM	I added Vash (given that everyone has taken care of that for me) and Himura Battousai (I'm a big RK fan) to the list.
wdarkk 04-03-04, 01:46 AM	Do you mean Himura Battosai or Himura Kenshin? There's a rather significant difference. The first is LE and the second is CG. Battosai: brutally slays anyone he is ordered to, and rather enjoys it Kenshin: doesn't care much for authority but tries to help out wherever possible.
Quenditar 04-03-04, 02:20 AM	Originally posted by wdarkk Do you mean Himura Battosai or Himura Kenshin? There's a rather significant difference. The first is LE and the second is CG. Battosai: brutally slays anyone he is ordered to, and rather enjoys it Kenshin: doesn't care much for authority but tries to help out wherever possible. Yes, I was talking about the Hitokiri Battousai - there are 3000+ pages of manga to remind me of the difference. ;)
Bromabaz Silvertwister 04-05-04, 12:55 AM	Originally posted by the Horc I think it's because all the main characters on that show look exactly alike.:D Honestly, Kagome and Kikyo look more different that Kikyo and most of the others, and that's only because they have rampantly different hairstyles. not really, it's just that kikyo just wears a priestess robe while kogome wears a shenshi-short skirt. when she wore the preistess' robes they looked very simular. I just figured that after all the shikon stuff was over, that miruku and sango, having no where to live, would settle down there. kiade's got one foot in the grave already, and mirruku could take over as the priest of the temple...
Random bloke 04-06-04, 07:59 AM	Asuka - I always thought of her as a proto-typical CN. You see, one of the basic kinds of CN is the arche-typical teenager. Someone who really wants to be free (nobody to tell me what to do) and appreciated/loved by others (not necessarily a staple of all CN, but defintely of the teenager kind). She's not CE, because we've never seen her willing to really hurt people. Being a bit of a jerk isn't enough to qualify you for CE - you have to be at least on the spousal abuse / getting a co-worker "friend" fired so you can take his position / getting a girl intoxicated, pregnant, then telling her to get lost, level of un-niceness to be evil. Vash I always thought of as CG. CG's are often predictable when it comes to moral decisions (The "Never Kill" thing isn't exactly a structured personal code that governs his life - Vow of Peace fits it quite well actually), and he seems to act on a whim most of the time... besides he NEVER has a detailed plan - he jumps into a situation, acesses it, and gambles that his abilities and luck will get him through. If that's not a CG character... Wolfwood... there's no doubt that he's NG after he spends some time with Vash, but we really don't know what he was like before that. I think he was TN with small NG leanings (though he fancied himself NG) - killing even people who didn't really deserve to die for their crimes, using a gun to solve every problem, without worrying about consequences. I'll have to reverse the opinion on Jet/Spike on the last page - they're LG/CG with LN/CN leanings who only pretend to be LN/CN (even to themselves) because they're not "goodie-to-shoes". Let's take episode 8 - did anyone really think that Spike would fail to do the right thing?
crazysamaritan 05-07-04, 03:06 AM	Originally posted by Quenditar Yes, I was talking about the Hitokiri Battousai - there are 3000+ pages of manga to remind me of the difference. ;) 1 QUOTE: "Just because one is a battosai, does not mean one enjoyes killing." 2 Quote: "But if this one had a wish it would be that her dream was the reality." Obscure to those who don't follow the GN, I think you two will recall the b/g of these quotes. That said, I can't tell If Battosai was Law/Chaos but he was Good. Maybe Neutral with Good tendancies. That is WHY he became rurouni. "To protect without being tied." With the sakubato, he is Exalted/close to. I simply don't see enough Pre-mejii era scences to tell.