Annoying players! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Annoying players! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shocker250
07-09-05, 10:57 PM O.K. Now, i have endured several annoying players, as both a player and a DM. Today, well, really sumed up all the annoyance there is for him. Now, for a player that has been "playing" dungeons and dragons for at LEAST 3 years. AT LEAST 3. And when i say "playing" i mean, he plays the game... CLAIMS to have read the players handbook, and I know for certain he memorized the monster manual in order to metagame. Now, today, i know for DAMN sure that he didnt read the players handbook.

He, USED to be a "rules lawyer"... that one is in quotes because he THINKS he knows the rules, however, he stopped being a Rules lawyer after players proved him wrong on his thoughts on rules about 50 times in a row. But, he still tries to lawyer.

As another point... He is sooo lackluster in knowing the rules, that he failed to give himself bonus spells from high stat bonus. So, after he ran out.. goes.. oh wait, i stil have those. and casts spells as if he had preparred them, choosing of course spells that are best fit for the situation.

Second problem about him, he wastes a lot of time thinking of plans that are useless, and asks for pointless information.. like.... what color are those rocks... is there a burrowing mamal near by. (that time, we were like... WE ARE IN A CAVE 500 feet underground.... HELL NO).

Lastly, the problem is, he knows not how to, role play. Now, its not that, he cant get INTO character. Its more like... all his characters are the same personality wise... and personality wise the characters, no matter what KIND of character or background it has, OR EVEN gender, have the personality of the player himself.

But, let me get to the final straw, he was playing a wizard with a 20 intellegence. Now, with that kind of a stat, he should be a DAMN intellegent wizard. Now, while i THINK this decision is intellegence based, i think there is SOME, TINY amount of arguement that it is wisdom based. However, this is how it works. There is a race, and the first one out the door wins, there is a fire giant guarding the door. My character is in mellee with the giant, who is at fairly low HP -22... and my cleric is at 11 next to him. He casts ice storm on both of us. It only delt 9 damage because of a REALLY crappy role. He goes again, and casts fireball... for the sole purpose to kill me. He does, and he is then killed by the fire giant. Now, while, he wanted to win the race, and he assuredly prevents me from winning if i die, he himself should have been intellegent enough to know.. i CANT kill this firegiant, alone now, especially seeing i have NO spells left. No spells... at all. Being an intellegent person, should he have been able to use a little thinking ahead to know the outcome? Or perhaps, know that seeing as he is true neutral, that it isnt in his best favor to PTK someone on purpose.

So, please help. How have all of you delt with problem players. If any have known of THIS kind of player, that would be even better.
20goingon1232
07-09-05, 11:38 PM Please don't mix up player intelligence with character intelligence. They are not the same.

His alignment also means nothing in this particular scenario, unless he was Chaotic Evil, which would then fit (being insane and stupid).

I have a player that is 100% himself in every single character he plays, but much more highly exaggerated. I see no problems with that. Not all DMs demand that players must play an evil, conniving baby-raping character or one that is totally opposite the player's real personality in order to qualify said player as a roleplayer.

I agree that asking pointless questions is a pain. I suggest hitting him with a high relative CR monster while he is doing that (from ambush, of course) to simulate him spending so much time and effort studying the rocks that he missed that thing sneaking up on them. This is particularly effective if he is lagging behind looking at things.

Since he is no longer rules lawyering, I don't think a discussion on that will be appropriate.

As for him metagaming, ask him how his character would know how to do that, considering he has never seen it before? If he argues, ask him to prove it (ie., show you his character sheet). Now, don't punish players because they did the right thing (ie., by accident), like, for example, a wizard Fireballing a Troll. Wizards Fireball everything.

If he is a wizard, he CAN use those spell slots he missed out. IF he had 15 mins to prepare them. Treat them as if he deliberately left them empty when he was preparing before. Do not, however, allow him to cast them as spontaneous spells. Just flat out say no. Too bad.
Shaken, not Stunned
07-10-05, 12:06 AM This is an out of game problem. People don't seem to get that with these things. The solution to such problems invovles social interaction with the person involved. If you have yet to discuss this problem with the player in question, go do that now (yes, I know, it is between midnight and four in the morning, I mean it metaphorically).

Are people here so socially inept that they don't know to talk to the person they are having difficulties with? Are they so tied to D&D that they would suffer fools to play? WTF, man. W-T-F.

If you have talked to him, and he refuses to change, why are you still playing with him?

Now, forget what ever reason you just gave for that question, and find a way not to play with him (typcially by starting your own game, to which he is not invited)
Thorak
07-10-05, 01:01 AM O.K. Now, i have endured several annoying players, as both a player and a DM. Today, well, really sumed up all the annoyance there is for him. Now, for a player that has been "playing" dungeons and dragons for at LEAST 3 years. AT LEAST 3. And when i say "playing" i mean, he plays the game... CLAIMS to have read the players handbook, and I know for certain he memorized the monster manual in order to metagame. Now, today, i know for DAMN sure that he didnt read the players handbook.
The "read the MM to metagame" is an easy thing to fix. Point out that for his character to know anything about a given monster, he needs to make a Knowledge check tied to it's HD, the Knowledge in question related to it's Type. So, for instance, no character can know, without having experienced it first-hand, that a Troll regenerates and is vulnerable to fire and acid without making a DC 16 Knowledge: Nature check.

And Knowledge skills can't be used untrained. So no sneaking around it by rolling luckily, either.

So if he sees a Troll, and pulls out a torch, thwack him upside the head and tell him his character doesn't know that.
He, USED to be a "rules lawyer"... that one is in quotes because he THINKS he knows the rules, however, he stopped being a Rules lawyer after players proved him wrong on his thoughts on rules about 50 times in a row. But, he still tries to lawyer.

As another point... He is sooo lackluster in knowing the rules, that he failed to give himself bonus spells from high stat bonus. So, after he ran out.. goes.. oh wait, i stil have those. and casts spells as if he had preparred them, choosing of course spells that are best fit for the situation. [/quote]
You should have nipped this in the bud; a caster isn't required to memorize all their spells when they rest, and can hold some slots open. If he didn't memorize all he could, then he has open slots, not memorized spells he forgot about.
Second problem about him, he wastes a lot of time thinking of plans that are useless, and asks for pointless information.. like.... what color are those rocks... is there a burrowing mamal near by. (that time, we were like... WE ARE IN A CAVE 500 feet underground.... HELL NO).
So don't give him time. Enforce a wee bit of realism; if something's happening, give the players a 1 minute countdown to come up with a plan. Sure, it might be panicky and poorly thought out, but if their characters get less time, why would they be reacting any better?
Lastly, the problem is, he knows not how to, role play. Now, its not that, he cant get INTO character. Its more like... all his characters are the same personality wise... and personality wise the characters, no matter what KIND of character or background it has, OR EVEN gender, have the personality of the player himself.
Ask him, for every character he's about to play, to write up a 1-2 page backstory. That often helps in these cases. Just trying to fill out that much space makes the person shift things away from how they are just to have something to say.

If you do this, though, do it with every player. The ones with decent RP ability won't have any problems filling out a couple pages, and shouldn't complain, and this way you're not picking on anyone.
But, let me get to the final straw, he was playing a wizard with a 20 intellegence. Now, with that kind of a stat, he should be a DAMN intellegent wizard. Now, while i THINK this decision is intellegence based, i think there is SOME, TINY amount of arguement that it is wisdom based. However, this is how it works. There is a race, and the first one out the door wins, there is a fire giant guarding the door. My character is in mellee with the giant, who is at fairly low HP -22... and my cleric is at 11 next to him. He casts ice storm on both of us. It only delt 9 damage because of a REALLY crappy role. He goes again, and casts fireball... for the sole purpose to kill me. He does, and he is then killed by the fire giant. Now, while, he wanted to win the race, and he assuredly prevents me from winning if i die, he himself should have been intellegent enough to know.. i CANT kill this firegiant, alone now, especially seeing i have NO spells left. No spells... at all. Being an intellegent person, should he have been able to use a little thinking ahead to know the outcome? Or perhaps, know that seeing as he is true neutral, that it isnt in his best favor to PTK someone on purpose.
Intelligence doesn't translate into common sense. That's Wisdom. Think Fizban from the Dragonlance books; "Oh look, a rabbit. I like roast rabbit. Fireball! *PFOOM*"

However, as a TN, he wouldn't have killed you, unless losing the race meant a rather dire outcome for himself. Neutrals have compunctions about killing the innocent, let alone allies. If he eagerly killed you, then he's Evil.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shocker250 07-09-05, 10:57 PM	O.K. Now, i have endured several annoying players, as both a player and a DM. Today, well, really sumed up all the annoyance there is for him. Now, for a player that has been "playing" dungeons and dragons for at LEAST 3 years. AT LEAST 3. And when i say "playing" i mean, he plays the game... CLAIMS to have read the players handbook, and I know for certain he memorized the monster manual in order to metagame. Now, today, i know for DAMN sure that he didnt read the players handbook. He, USED to be a "rules lawyer"... that one is in quotes because he THINKS he knows the rules, however, he stopped being a Rules lawyer after players proved him wrong on his thoughts on rules about 50 times in a row. But, he still tries to lawyer. As another point... He is sooo lackluster in knowing the rules, that he failed to give himself bonus spells from high stat bonus. So, after he ran out.. goes.. oh wait, i stil have those. and casts spells as if he had preparred them, choosing of course spells that are best fit for the situation. Second problem about him, he wastes a lot of time thinking of plans that are useless, and asks for pointless information.. like.... what color are those rocks... is there a burrowing mamal near by. (that time, we were like... WE ARE IN A CAVE 500 feet underground.... HELL NO). Lastly, the problem is, he knows not how to, role play. Now, its not that, he cant get INTO character. Its more like... all his characters are the same personality wise... and personality wise the characters, no matter what KIND of character or background it has, OR EVEN gender, have the personality of the player himself. But, let me get to the final straw, he was playing a wizard with a 20 intellegence. Now, with that kind of a stat, he should be a DAMN intellegent wizard. Now, while i THINK this decision is intellegence based, i think there is SOME, TINY amount of arguement that it is wisdom based. However, this is how it works. There is a race, and the first one out the door wins, there is a fire giant guarding the door. My character is in mellee with the giant, who is at fairly low HP -22... and my cleric is at 11 next to him. He casts ice storm on both of us. It only delt 9 damage because of a REALLY crappy role. He goes again, and casts fireball... for the sole purpose to kill me. He does, and he is then killed by the fire giant. Now, while, he wanted to win the race, and he assuredly prevents me from winning if i die, he himself should have been intellegent enough to know.. i CANT kill this firegiant, alone now, especially seeing i have NO spells left. No spells... at all. Being an intellegent person, should he have been able to use a little thinking ahead to know the outcome? Or perhaps, know that seeing as he is true neutral, that it isnt in his best favor to PTK someone on purpose. So, please help. How have all of you delt with problem players. If any have known of THIS kind of player, that would be even better.
20goingon1232 07-09-05, 11:38 PM	Please don't mix up player intelligence with character intelligence. They are not the same. His alignment also means nothing in this particular scenario, unless he was Chaotic Evil, which would then fit (being insane and stupid). I have a player that is 100% himself in every single character he plays, but much more highly exaggerated. I see no problems with that. Not all DMs demand that players must play an evil, conniving baby-raping character or one that is totally opposite the player's real personality in order to qualify said player as a roleplayer. I agree that asking pointless questions is a pain. I suggest hitting him with a high relative CR monster while he is doing that (from ambush, of course) to simulate him spending so much time and effort studying the rocks that he missed that thing sneaking up on them. This is particularly effective if he is lagging behind looking at things. Since he is no longer rules lawyering, I don't think a discussion on that will be appropriate. As for him metagaming, ask him how his character would know how to do that, considering he has never seen it before? If he argues, ask him to prove it (ie., show you his character sheet). Now, don't punish players because they did the right thing (ie., by accident), like, for example, a wizard Fireballing a Troll. Wizards Fireball everything. If he is a wizard, he CAN use those spell slots he missed out. IF he had 15 mins to prepare them. Treat them as if he deliberately left them empty when he was preparing before. Do not, however, allow him to cast them as spontaneous spells. Just flat out say no. Too bad.
Shaken, not Stunned 07-10-05, 12:06 AM	This is an out of game problem. People don't seem to get that with these things. The solution to such problems invovles social interaction with the person involved. If you have yet to discuss this problem with the player in question, go do that now (yes, I know, it is between midnight and four in the morning, I mean it metaphorically). Are people here so socially inept that they don't know to talk to the person they are having difficulties with? Are they so tied to D&D that they would suffer fools to play? WTF, man. W-T-F. If you have talked to him, and he refuses to change, why are you still playing with him? Now, forget what ever reason you just gave for that question, and find a way not to play with him (typcially by starting your own game, to which he is not invited)
Thorak 07-10-05, 01:01 AM	O.K. Now, i have endured several annoying players, as both a player and a DM. Today, well, really sumed up all the annoyance there is for him. Now, for a player that has been "playing" dungeons and dragons for at LEAST 3 years. AT LEAST 3. And when i say "playing" i mean, he plays the game... CLAIMS to have read the players handbook, and I know for certain he memorized the monster manual in order to metagame. Now, today, i know for DAMN sure that he didnt read the players handbook. The "read the MM to metagame" is an easy thing to fix. Point out that for his character to know anything about a given monster, he needs to make a Knowledge check tied to it's HD, the Knowledge in question related to it's Type. So, for instance, no character can know, without having experienced it first-hand, that a Troll regenerates and is vulnerable to fire and acid without making a DC 16 Knowledge: Nature check. And Knowledge skills can't be used untrained. So no sneaking around it by rolling luckily, either. So if he sees a Troll, and pulls out a torch, thwack him upside the head and tell him his character doesn't know that. He, USED to be a "rules lawyer"... that one is in quotes because he THINKS he knows the rules, however, he stopped being a Rules lawyer after players proved him wrong on his thoughts on rules about 50 times in a row. But, he still tries to lawyer. As another point... He is sooo lackluster in knowing the rules, that he failed to give himself bonus spells from high stat bonus. So, after he ran out.. goes.. oh wait, i stil have those. and casts spells as if he had preparred them, choosing of course spells that are best fit for the situation. [/quote] You should have nipped this in the bud; a caster isn't required to memorize all their spells when they rest, and can hold some slots open. If he didn't memorize all he could, then he has open slots, not memorized spells he forgot about. Second problem about him, he wastes a lot of time thinking of plans that are useless, and asks for pointless information.. like.... what color are those rocks... is there a burrowing mamal near by. (that time, we were like... WE ARE IN A CAVE 500 feet underground.... HELL NO). So don't give him time. Enforce a wee bit of realism; if something's happening, give the players a 1 minute countdown to come up with a plan. Sure, it might be panicky and poorly thought out, but if their characters get less time, why would they be reacting any better? Lastly, the problem is, he knows not how to, role play. Now, its not that, he cant get INTO character. Its more like... all his characters are the same personality wise... and personality wise the characters, no matter what KIND of character or background it has, OR EVEN gender, have the personality of the player himself. Ask him, for every character he's about to play, to write up a 1-2 page backstory. That often helps in these cases. Just trying to fill out that much space makes the person shift things away from how they are just to have something to say. If you do this, though, do it with every player. The ones with decent RP ability won't have any problems filling out a couple pages, and shouldn't complain, and this way you're not picking on anyone. But, let me get to the final straw, he was playing a wizard with a 20 intellegence. Now, with that kind of a stat, he should be a DAMN intellegent wizard. Now, while i THINK this decision is intellegence based, i think there is SOME, TINY amount of arguement that it is wisdom based. However, this is how it works. There is a race, and the first one out the door wins, there is a fire giant guarding the door. My character is in mellee with the giant, who is at fairly low HP -22... and my cleric is at 11 next to him. He casts ice storm on both of us. It only delt 9 damage because of a REALLY crappy role. He goes again, and casts fireball... for the sole purpose to kill me. He does, and he is then killed by the fire giant. Now, while, he wanted to win the race, and he assuredly prevents me from winning if i die, he himself should have been intellegent enough to know.. i CANT kill this firegiant, alone now, especially seeing i have NO spells left. No spells... at all. Being an intellegent person, should he have been able to use a little thinking ahead to know the outcome? Or perhaps, know that seeing as he is true neutral, that it isnt in his best favor to PTK someone on purpose. Intelligence doesn't translate into common sense. That's Wisdom. Think Fizban from the Dragonlance books; "Oh look, a rabbit. I like roast rabbit. Fireball! PFOOM" However, as a TN, he wouldn't have killed you, unless losing the race meant a rather dire outcome for himself. Neutrals have compunctions about killing the innocent, let alone allies. If he eagerly killed you, then he's Evil.