Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jagyr Ebonwood 12-29-04, 02:56 PM	(Edit: Scroll to post #11 after reading this one. We've decided to lose the player, and need help figuring out how) If you're reading this, then you've read the title. Yup, it's one of those. What we have here is a quandry of a frustrating nature. We have a player who apparently does not want to play, but does want to play... He continues to play with our group (which he invited himself into a few months ago), but is convinced that we don't want him playing (and focuses this conviction on one or two players in particular). Now, this isn't true in as many words. There are times when he complicates things (for example, making a psionic character w/o permission and not bothering to read any of the rules that balance psionics)...but usually we enjoy having him in the group because he makes things interesting. But still, he insists that we don't want him there. This puts us in a hard place, because the more he complains that he's unwanted, well, it makes him unwanted. His problem I think is that his last two characters have been killed by the party, and that his current character is being attacked by the party. We try to explain that these deaths were purely character motivated, not player motivated, but he still refuses to listen. His first character was killed when the party caught on to his plan to assassinate the other new player's character. We're a very neutral aligned, rogue oriented group, with little in the way of morales or ethics. The soon-to-be assassinated PC was an honorable prince who was somewhat annoying (the way goody-two-shoes are), but he was offering us political safety and the protection of his country. Seeing as we had just been ejected from our guild, if it came down to supporting our murderous, traitorous companion or the wealthy man who would save our collective arse from impending not-goodness, we would choose the prince. And we did. His next character to die was the psion. He lasted a lot longer though, because he was a much better made and played PC. However, his last character's grudge against the prince seemed to somehow carry over to this PC, and things started up again. The in-fighting and bickering, which is at least IC, builds like a snowball until last session. We were in a snowy mountain pass with an unfathomable deep chasm next to us. The prince is singing for no good reason, bound to cause an avalanche, and the psion and I can't get him to shut up. Eventually, he and I pick up the prince by the arms and carry him to the cliff edge. I tell him to stop singing or else, and he quickly agrees to shut up. I set him down, having only intended to threaten him. However, the psion says "I 'accidentally' slip and drop him of the edge." Following this is a very cool scene involving me diving off the cliff to catch the prince in midair while our rogue with flight capability swoops down for the save. Anyway, the prince is (literally) royally P.Oed when he gets back up, and draws his sword on the psion, who basically says "bring it." The rest of the party is kind of angry at the psion for the stunt now too, and some of us are even under order to protect the prince from harm. So no one goes to the psion's aid as the prince decapitates him with some good rolls. The psion utters a dying curse that strikes the prince blind and deaf, which eventually means he starts to go mad and we have to send him home. Now, the new PC is a rakshasa (using SS rules) sorceror who is bound into slavery by our perty's enemy. The DM planned for him to ally with us in a attempt to break out of slavery, but that looks a little less than likely now. The first thing he does, with the alliance of the local evil town guard, is arrest me, and strip me of all my possessions. That annoyed me a lot, but I hoped to roleplay it out. Of course, the rest of my party saw me being arrested, and attempted to break me out. This leads to lots of me being used as a human, well, litorian shield, and my party thinking that I'm going to die and they should save me. Eventually, everyone escapes. The rakshasa is trying to retroactively steal my magic items, but thats a side issue. The main issue is that the player is now becoming more determined that the party is against him, because they tried to shoot him and they killed his guards. We explain to him that he was threatening my character's life, and endangering the entire party's mission by taking one of their own into the hands of the enemy. In the party's eyes, they were protecting themselves and their teammate from potential and iminent death, respectively. This argument has had little effect. He seems to have a hard time separating in game actions from the out of game enviroment. He also fails to realize the consequences of his character's actions. He thinks that his PCs die because we don't like him, and doesn't see that what he is doing makes a difference. In fact, I think he doesn't notice this for other PCs either. When another character did something that potentially threatened the whole party, and we bullied him about it in game, the ex-psion said "You guys are just taking it out on him because I'm not there to be mean to". This is somewhat paraphrased, but I believe its pretty accurate. We want him to continue playing, he's our friend, but we won't be able to tolerate this attitude, as it creates out of game stress and unfriendliness. Nothing we say seems to get through to him. If we ask him to leave, he will be enraged, and it will, to him at least, prove his point about us not wanting him to play. It's all very stressful and bothersome to myself, the other players, and the DM especially, who is new to DMing and shouldn't have to deal with out of game hostility in his first campaign. Argh. What to do?
Thoronmir 12-29-04, 03:51 PM	Print him a copy of your post. You did a very good job articulating the situation. Often, it’s easier to express such issues in writing since you have time to craft your text. You said nothing that he ought not to hear. He needs to separate the issue of whether the other players want to associate with him from whether the other PCs want to associate with his PC. Because, as you realize, those issues can be entirely unrelated. Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s much you can do to solve this problem. He needs to accept the fact that he is accepted (I don’t want to wander too far down the Message-Board Psychology tangent, but his described behavior reeks of a need for attention). If he remains convinced that the other players are out to get him, ask him how he thinks your PCs should have reacted to his characters’ conduct … then let him explain sound roleplaying bases for his expectations. Though, I doubt he’d even be willing to engage in such an exercise. Maybe I’m just feeling old and grumpy today, but it seems to me that you’ve already expended too much time and effort coddling his inferiority complex. The guy whines about not being wanted at the table, then basically calls you all liars when you assure him he’s wrong. Since I’m feeling a little confrontational, I recommend a confrontation. If he’s right and you’re lying, why does he keep coming back where he’s not wanted? What does that behavior say about him? Never forget the first rule of D&D ... it's supposed to be fun for everyone involved.
XArchangelX 12-29-04, 04:07 PM	I would like to concur with Thoronmir on this one. This guy does not sound like someone who wants to play DnD, he sounds like someone who needs attention. Not much of a friend, especially if he won't listen to you, and creates annoying characters.
Razoreface 12-29-04, 04:08 PM	If a player really has trouble separating the game from the world, there's really nothing good that can come of it. Especially since he's directing it at one or two specific others, and trying to act victimized.
Board_Rider 12-29-04, 04:13 PM	I have to agree with Thoronmir's suggestion. This guy actually sounds like a self absorbed baby. Even when it's not about him, he makes/wants it to be about him. You know if what Thoronmir suggested doesn't work...give him the boot. Seriously, let him think he's "won". Who cares? Ask him to go have the pity party on his own or grow up. This may sound harsh but clearly this guy just doesn't "get it" and ruins others playing experiences. Alternatively the DM could step in and say something to the effect of "I appreciate the roleplaying, but this OOC stuff has got to stop."
Dragonsbane1313 12-29-04, 05:32 PM	I think he wants attention. I personally wouldnt let him play with my group.
Razoreface 12-29-04, 05:50 PM	The funny thing is what Board Rider said about how he'd feel about getting kicked out is probably right. He'd feel like he had somehow "won" because he'd believe he was right all along, that the group didn't like him. Forming reality to fit his original vision, by being a twit. I find it funny, anyway.
eudas 12-29-04, 05:52 PM	damnable self-fulfilling prophecies! :) eudas
danielinthewolvesden 12-29-04, 06:47 PM	I think your group has too much in the way of in-party fighting. This ALWAYS causes hard feelings. Not to mention other in-party conflicts like stealing from each other. I don't think it's a problem player you have so much as a problem group. Try working as a team and not spending most of each game getting on each others nerves or attacking each other, eh? If it was just this guy- why is your Prince PC not shutting up when his singing could cause an avalanche? And here "When another character did something that potentially threatened the whole party, and we bullied him about it in game". D&D works better if it is the PC's vs the bad guys, not the PCs vs each other.
Jagyr Ebonwood 12-29-04, 08:12 PM	I think your group has too much in the way of in-party fighting. This ALWAYS causes hard feelings. Not to mention other in-party conflicts like stealing from each other. I don't think it's a problem player you have so much as a problem group. Try working as a team and not spending most of each game getting on each others nerves or attacking each other, eh? If it was just this guy- why is your Prince PC not shutting up when his singing could cause an avalanche? And here "When another character did something that potentially threatened the whole party, and we bullied him about it in game". D&D works better if it is the PC's vs the bad guys, not the PCs vs each other. Normally I'd agree with you, but this party is working out very well, considering we're all amoral scoundrels :D The group is enjoying itself, and the characters are working together because they're being paid to. Actually, the PCs are becoming actual friends...cool, character development for once! :D I don't recall exactly what happened for the PC to be "bullied", but I remember someone's character got reprimanded or something, and that the rakshasa player reacted that way. It was a minor incident, extremely IC and unremarkable, and he made it a bigger one with his comment. Anyway, I must stress that contrary to popular belief, our "all CN rogue" type party is holding together remarkably, thanks to the players and the DM working out those kind of issues ahead of time. Our one problem at the moment is this player being upset and us not knowing how to respond. (Edit: I agree with you on the last part. PCs v Bad Guys is better than PCs v PCs, which is why its disappointing to see this particular PC break away from the hook the DM gave him and instead head towards the path of "I'll get back at them now! Mwuhahaha!" Sigh. Also, the prince was singing because he's the kind of guy that enjoys singing when he's in a good mood...and he didn't realize the threat of avalanche. He's known for being the least sharp sword in the royal armory...)
Jagyr Ebonwood 12-29-04, 11:42 PM	Update. Having talked it over with the DM, and showing him this thread, he and I have come to the conclusion that keeping this player in the group will start us down a slippery slope. It'd be better to get him out now while the campaign is still strong. So...now the question becomes, how do we have him leave the group without confronting him and saying "you need to leave"? This would really make him mad, and turn him against us (IRL) for an indeterminable period of time. This is not so bad for the DM, but my brother and I see him much more regularly in other social settings (he's practically a neighbor), and this would make things very weird for us (and the other members who see him often in school) socially. He is currently trying to start up his own campaign with a few members of our current group, and our DM thought that if we encouraged this project and got him interested in his own campaign he might disengage from our campaign by himself. Or after his campaign got going, the DM might say to him "this is supposed to be fun, and honestly, it doesn't seem like you're having that much *fun* in my campaign." The other option is the "Boot to the head!" approach...we kill his new character off, and hope that he gives up and leaves. This is somewhat (okay, a lot) mean, and still leaves him angry...but it's less confrontational then telling him to leave. Any ideas? Different takes on the issue?
e-z0r 12-29-04, 11:57 PM	I think the best option to start with is Thronmir's suggestion. Several people seem to agree. Try showing the thread. If he doesn't see, then do something more drastic like drive him away from the group.
Board_Rider 12-30-04, 12:01 AM	Cut those ties buddy!!! Seriously. I mean I know that this guy is your friend and all, but man, if he is going to act like a child perhaps during the next game tell him that it's time to go. If he holds a grudge in another setting well...if it were me... I would laugh straight in this guys face. Then ask,"Are you serious?" You seem like a smart guy....isn't this guy? Step back for a moment and look at this...it really is funny. Everyone is all bent out of shape because of a game!!! A game!! Give him the boot....deal with the reprocussions afterwards and look at this guy funny if he brings anything up in another social setting. Say Grow Up and keep walking..
Jagyr Ebonwood 12-30-04, 12:26 AM	Cut those ties buddy!!! Seriously. I mean I know that this guy is your friend and all, but man, if he is going to act like a child perhaps during the next game tell him that it's time to go. If he holds a grudge in another setting well...if it were me... I would laugh straight in this guys face. Then ask,"Are you serious?" You seem like a smart guy....isn't this guy? Step back for a moment and look at this...it really is funny. Everyone is all bent out of shape because of a game!!! A game!! Give him the boot....deal with the reprocussions afterwards and look at this guy funny if he brings anything up in another social setting. Say Grow Up and keep walking.. Hey, cool idea man. Right, I'm extermely tired right now, not fit for decision of this magnitude. Good advice, I'll think about it, thanks everyone.
MoogleEmpMog 12-30-04, 02:12 AM	Some players really enjoy a backstabbing, work-together-because-we-have-to, character development means HAVING to say you're sorry, amoral mercs campaign - I'm one of them. Some players don't. This particular player seems to be the kind who doesn't. Or rather, he seems to be the kind who wants to be completely free from repercussions and character development, the kind who cripples not many but most such campaigns. You're truly blessed to have a sizable group who can play this type of game; you certainly shouldn't let this one player ruin that rare gift. First, explain. Use this thread. If he doesn't get if - and I'll be honest, he most probably won't - boot his rear. If he's immature enough to hold a grudge against you for that, why is it 'weird' for you to encounter him in a social setting? :rolleyes: Don't you encounter anyone else you dislike in a social setting? If you essentially like every other acquaintance, then you definitely shouldn't worry about having one person you no longer get on famously with.
Stuntman 12-30-04, 02:39 PM	I may be a little late, but I'll add my thoughts to the original post. When this player decided to assassinate the new PC, it seems to me that he either doesn't care or is not aware of the new player's feelings. How would he feel if he were the new PC and some other existing PC assassinates him? would he feel that it would be fun to him if that happened to him? If he succeeded in his assassination plot, doesn't he realise that that player would be as PO'ed as he is now? The idea of playing a game together is so that everyone, I mean everyone can have fun. If you make it not fun for someone else, either that person will not continue with the game or you will not be invited back. We all need to respect everyone else not just when playing D&D but when doing other group activities as well. Your player seems to not respect the other players. He just wants to do what he wants regardless of how it makes others feel. If he doesn't get what he wants, he thinks everyone is against him. Board Rider described him best. If he is unable to understand or follow the Golden Rule and respect the other players in the game, you have the choice of putting up with him or cutting him loose. If you do choose to cut him loose, you can put it in a way that allows him the option of coming back in. Just explain that your reasons for no longer inviting him is that he is not respecting the other players and making the game not fun to play. If he is willing to change his ways, he can be invited back at a later time. He will merely be suspended and have a second chance. If he can demonstrate that he can play and not disrupt the game for everyone, he can then get a second chance. This puts the ball in his court. If he does not choose to come back, then you probably don't want him anyway.
Jagyr Ebonwood 01-02-05, 02:02 PM	Thanks for the advice, Stuntman. The next session is this weekend, and we're still trying to figure out how to los him nicely. Giving him the option of coming back is a good idea.