Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Steef 03-22-06, 11:03 AM	Greetings! New to the board and the game, and thought I would start off with a question :) I've been playing my first campaign for a while now, and now I am a level 10 paladin of Cuthburt. We finally killed supervillain liche named Cyrus, through some godly intervention. My problem is this... One of our teemates, a halfling ninja, has repeatedly betrayed our group by selling us out, running away, lying to NPC's and getting us in trouble, and then the final straw, actually accepting a contract from Cyrus to have him bring us to him, which he did. This resulted in myself and another character about to be sacrificed for a ritual. Luckily I escaped due to an amulet I had on that almost killed myself, but completely destroyed the liche. (Having destroyed his fulactory(sp) a few hours prior) My issue now is, I want to kill this guy. His character has intentionally made it hard to roleplay as a good character, and his constant treachery, aside from him cheating and being an all around a$$ has made the game difficult to play. The only reaosn anyone puts up with it is because he lives at the house we play at. Please help!
Rivelstraz 03-22-06, 11:38 AM	If he's cheating try talking to him (to the player, not the character) There are lots of places where you can play, I'm sure his placement isn't D&D paradise or something, so just work with it in the personal department, not in-game, since if he's cheating you'll probably stand no chance unless you kill him while sleeping.
dragonseth 03-22-06, 12:37 PM	Do what my roommate is considering doing to me: assassination We are arguing about returning an artifact to a town, he's evil and wants to sell it. I refuse to give in, and I'm worrying about sleeping. But, if you character can't do it for some ethical reason, get someone else in the group to do it. Show him that being an a$$ is not cool. And do it in game. Good times.
Steef 03-22-06, 02:31 PM	hey thanks for the advice ooc my girlfriend plays and she's a lvl 9 fighter who has been infected with were tiger lycanthropy :) We decided that while we all sleep she's gonna rip his hands off heh.. He's a ninja who uses a bow as his weapon, so we figured that way he can either continue with the group with no hands, or leave and reroll. It's only fair right? hehe
TheChilliGod 03-22-06, 02:39 PM	Why just the hands? The jugular is a much better option. Quick, clean and you don't have to worry about any future usurping. But talk with the player and the DM about it first. Make it known to the two that you are clearly not having fun at the table.
blackjackg 03-22-06, 02:49 PM	To be totally honest, what the guy has been doing IC sounds like it's adding a lot of spice to the adventure. Your characters haven't died yet, and it sounds like they're having more interesting adventures because of this guy. (Well, at least the selling you out to the lich thing. I don't know about annoying NPCs.) In any case, if what's bugging you is in character, deal with it in character. Your paladin will probably take serious exception to being turned in. So fight this turncoat. Or keep him on a chain for the remainder of your adventures. He's playing his character, you play yours. That's how the game works. Now, if he's behaving badly out of character, deal with it out of character. Tell the guy that you've got a problem with how he's behaving. If that doesn't work, tell the DM. People being jerks is the opposite of what D&D is about, and you don't have to put up with it.
Witch 03-22-06, 03:02 PM	Seriously, don't cut his hands off. It is most annoying. a)Kill him, forcing him to reroll. b)Turn him in to the authorities, providing an adventure hook. If you cut his hands off, it is the biggest anticlimax a character can get. Someone made -one- hand fall off with a spell on one of my characters, while I was dominated by something. The character is utterly ruined, and you are totally annoyed because you didn't just die.
SureFoot 03-22-06, 03:04 PM	heh. Seems like half the replies are "deal with it out-of-game" and the other half are "deal with it in-game." Edit: OK, nowhere near half and half. Most are saying "in game" My reply: in game all the way. With what you've described, and not knowing anything else going on at your gaming table, it sounds to me like you all are playing a group of characters who would really have no business adventuring together. Your paladin should see this ninja's actions for what they are: evil. A good person does not make a deal with a lich to turn his friends in. You are in danger of losing your paladin abilities if you continue to associate with this evil bastage, no question (if the DM is AT ALL paying attention). Play your character the way it shoudl be played, no more, no less. How would *you* react if one of *your* companions, on whom you rely to survive in the dangers of adventuring, was actively working against you? Now multiply that by ten, adn you're approaching the righteous wrath of a paladin of St. Cuthbert!! If I were DMing, I would be *very* surprised if you simply did not openly declare his character an enemy of the church and cut him down on the spot, no questions asked (assuming you know for sure he's guilty of what you described, and you can prove it). At the *very* least, you should Detect Evil on him, and immediately break of contact as soon as the result of "very" comes back (because this guy is definitely evil). It surprises me to no end when it appears that people are willing to "forgive" a fellow adventurer turning on them, writing it off as "oh, he's role playing, deal with it!" If *you* were actually in that situtation and someone sold you out to an undead fiend, how would you react? Kill him, you say? Exactly.
jaydubyadub 03-22-06, 03:32 PM	You're a paladin, he's undeniably evil and has sold you and your party out - if not for a lucky break, you would be dead. SMITE HIM DOWN. Don't do it to him in his sleep, don't sink to his level... or you might find yourself an Ex-paladin. Challenge him outright, and use smite evil for the takedown. If I were your DM, I'd wonder why you hadn't cut him down the first chance you had. The player should understand that actions have consequences. If he tries to stealth and skulk away, detect evil and follow the aura. If he's not considered "Evil" after what you've described above, your DM is a retard. * * * Disclaimer: This is all, of course, dependant upon you presenting all the information above accurately and honestly. If, say, your knowledge of the ninja's betrayal only comes from meta-game knowledge, you would have no right to act as such.
Fanged Fremont 03-22-06, 04:40 PM	I like smitings. Evil peoples who try to kill the paladin get smited. If the player gets mad, pull the same crap he did, "I was just playing my character". Tell him if he doesn't want to get smited, don't backstab the party. He can play an evil character and still not backstab the party he's with. But there's a better way to deal with him. You could instead try and find a helm of opposite alignment. Tie up the doofus, and proceed to place the helm on his head, over and over until he fails his will save. You now have no need to reroll anything, it's the same character, except now he's good and will be totally apologetic about trying to off you guys. At that point you have had done something better than ridding the world of one evil, you have converted it to good. Sure it was forceful conversion, but you've added another member to the side of good which is what really counts. Plus you're forcing the guy to play a good character. If you kill him he can just make another evil one.
sir_dwar 03-22-06, 05:01 PM	Ok, here's my comments: 1. Helm of opposite alignment-Not a good idea, the player isnt much for playing a good ccharecter. 2. Hands off-Regenerate spell comes to mind 3. Kill him- The key word in your description is St. Chubert. You may not have thought of this, but anyone who worships the god of retribution has the obligation to kill this guy if they are the one's he betrayed. Also, as a paladin, you have to do it. But then he'll just create another evil charecter, right? No. Explain to your DM that as you search for a new sneak, you scan them with detect evil. Mind Blank would be metagaming for him, so he can't play an evil charecter! Worse-Case Senario: He Quits... Well, thats my 2 coppers (I know some other people say it, but hey, it isn't copyrighted... IS IT?)
20goingon1232 03-22-06, 05:51 PM	Get your other party members together and maim him. No eyes, no hands, no feet, permanent hearing loss, cut out his tongue. Then leave him. Sit down with the DM and tell him that disruptive players like that is NOT good for the group (not the party, the GROUP). It causes resentments and fosters anger, and we all know that leads to the Dark Side.
Vacerious 03-22-06, 06:05 PM	I've been playing my first campaign for a while now, and now I am a level 10 paladin of Cuthbert. We finally killed supervillain lich named Cyrus, through some godly intervention. My problem is this... One of our teamates, a halfling ninja, has repeatedly betrayed our group by selling us out, running away, lying to NPC's and getting us in trouble, and then, the final straw, actually accepting a contract from Cyrus to have him bring us to him, which he did. This resulted in myself and another character about to be sacrificed for a ritual. My issue now is, I want to kill this guy. His character has intentionally made it hard to roleplay as a good character, and his constant treachery, aside from him cheating and being an all around a$$, has made the game difficult to play. The only reason anyone puts up with it is because he lives at the house we play at. By the looks of your typos, it's pretty obvious that you're angry with this guy. However, I'm going to have tell you to calm down. Because, chances are, you probably will wind up killing this guy. Allow me to clarify. One of our teamates, a halfling ninja, has repeatedly betrayed our group by selling us out, running away, lying to NPC's and getting us in trouble, and then, the final straw, actually accepting a contract from [the BBEG] to have him bring us to him . Has it ever occured to you that, perhaps, the DM might be using this character as a plot device? I'm not saying he is. But from what I can tell, it is a good possibility. Hence, if its his part of the story to betray y'all, you will inevitably wind up killing him. After all, betraying people for profit is a clearly evil act, making this halfling ninja clearly evil. Hence, as a paladin, its your duty to bring him to justice. His character has intentionally made it hard to roleplay as a good character, and his constant treachery, aside from him cheating and being an all around a$$, has made the game difficult to play. Has the DM been allowing him to reroll and, overall, made his capability of surviving easier? Because if he is, then the player is not cheating. This is what many people on this board call railroading. If this is the case, then its pretty clear that the DM wants him alive for story purposes. This only enforces the point that you'll wind up killing the trouble player anyway even more. But if he isn't a plot device for the DM, then you really should bring up your situation with the player. Also, you are a paladin. You have a really handy ability called "Detect Evil." Has it ever occured that you should probably try it on this guy? If he rings up as 'Evil', guess what? Part of your paladin code of conduct states that you can't associate yourself with evil people. Hence, something's gotta give.
Doopliss 03-22-06, 06:53 PM	I'm putting my vote in for 'kill him in his sleep.' I also fail to see how killing someone in his sleep isn't acting honorably when compared to challenging, then killing him. Killing someone in his sleep is completely painless. (Unless you use poison, I suppose) Nor can one (mundane) action facilitate an alignment change. Finally, a paladin killing a ninja in his sleep. Think of the sweet, sweet irony!
Ganny.Harper 03-22-06, 07:22 PM	Killing him in his sleep is not a good idea nor letting other party members do it but if you do it then you'll just loose all your paladin stuff, you'll be a generic fighter without the extra feats. Turn the player over to the authoreties in the game if he resists you can fight him which might lead to the death of one of you, the same goes for a chalange. You could also try to convert him in the game which will lead to more roleplay. As for the cheating I agree with the others he is either a DM plotdevice or the DM hasnt cought on to the cheating yet.
jaydubyadub 03-22-06, 08:11 PM	Understand that IN GENERAL, I advise the chaotic klepto rogue and the virtuous paladin to get along and not fight on the all-too-often used "It's what my character would do!" HOWEVER, there comes a point where to do anything BUT fight would be so inutterably stupid and out-of-character and meta-gaming, etc. etc. that it would ruin the game and any sense of immersion you might have as a player, and that point has arrived. He betrayed you and your party to the BBEG. SMITE HIS ASS.
Morotis 03-22-06, 08:21 PM	Someone mentioned cutting off his hands. You mentioned he uses a bow often. I'd cut off his middle and ring fingers on each hand, makes using a bow impossible, so all his feats and mone spent on a bow were wasted. :D Paladins are Lawful good, he did an evil act. The first time he betrayed you, you should have cut off the fingers as repayment, settling the score. Then the next time, well, Paladins don't hang with that crew so you should have killed him then. Now, I'd suggest waking him while he sleeps and smashing a rock against his face while he's still half asleep, while he's gripping his face in pain, cut off his fingers. Finally, throw an elixer of love down his throat, I'm not sure why you should give him an elixer of love but it's all for the best...
sir_dwar 03-22-06, 08:29 PM	Okay, Maybe a little more details on the party here: We know that your party includes Paladin 10 Fighter 9 Ninja ? We really ought to know: Ninja's level Any other party members. However, I'd still suggest kicking hs chaecter out of the group at a minimum.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 03-22-06, 08:55 PM	He betrayed you to the BBEG. Accepted a contract to work for him. Treat him like you would any LBEG.
taradusis 03-22-06, 09:33 PM	A paladin should be played like john wayne,and john wayne would look at this clown and say"Freind,you have betrayed me ,your party and whatever code of decency you once held dear,and it's high time somone taught you the error of your ways"The duke would then hand out a manly beating. option two,hit him with a baleful polymorph that turns him into an actual snake (or petrification).
jaydubyadub 03-22-06, 11:01 PM	You guys keep suggesting he do nasty things to the ninja in his sleep - that doesn't work for a PALADIN. And neither does torture or dismemberment or anything else awful this character probably deserves - a Paladin must be honorable at all times, not only when it is convenient, or he's no better than this scummy ninja. Ergo, call him out John Wayne style (as the poster above put it) and take him down.
Doopliss 03-22-06, 11:23 PM	I still don't think a coup de grace while he's sleeping violates the code of conduct... Acting honorable is a maybe, but I fail to see how granting him a quick and painless death as opposed to a duel. (Which is much more torturous, when you think about it. There's no way a Ninja can win, and it would hurt.) As for turning him over to the law enforcement, has he done anything that actually breaks a law with a death/life sentence? It seems like he's just... Evil to you guys.
Doopliss 03-23-06, 09:51 AM	Ooh, I just thought of a good one. Completely Paladinlike, and most effective yet IMO. First, talk to the other players out of game, ask them what they think of his antics. If they're all as ticked off as you, confront him IC next game... "I had a talk with the other party members, and we think you've been having a real negative impact on the party. It might be better if we were to go on without you." If he's willing to leave, that's fine. He's out of your hair. (Especially considering he hasn't really done anything against the law) Again, keep this IC and let him roll up a (lower charisma and good aligned) new character. Assuming he wants to stay and says he'll shape up, tell him he would naturally consent to the dreaded mark of justice with each other party member knowing the command word. Don't let him stay until he agrees to be marked, and don't hesitate to threaten triggering it if he begins messing with the party again. It avoids intra-party strife, saves two sheets of paper, and would make St.Cuthbert proud. :) Y'think it could work?
jaydubyadub 03-23-06, 09:53 AM	Ah, so you want him to be "Belkar'd?"
Doopliss 03-23-06, 11:14 AM	Hehe, you got it. The situations are disturbingly similar...
Steef 03-23-06, 11:59 AM	Okay few questions answered... Paladin- 10 Fighter- 9 Ninja- 10 (Started prestige in Assasin) Recently Deceased Rogue- 9 Psion- 8 Basically.. The Ninja, Rogue, and Psion live together ooc. The DM doesn't live there. There is a delicate situation due to how much of a dick this guy is, but he's on a lease and people don't want to **** him off too much. Therefore, the psion often sides with the Ninja in order to "keep the peace." The ninja cheats by rolling his die and then picking it up right away (which we try to catch often), and constant metagaming (which we tell him to stop doing constantly). Also, he doesn't know how to roleplay his allignment, and ignores all diplomacy checks/sense motives and others. I have asked the DM to do something but he doesn't wanna **** off the group.. Since he betrayed our fighter as well, who is chaotic neutral alligned, she wants to kill him in his sleep, or maim him. This game may be falling apart due to the fact that thiskid is probably going to throw a hissy hit and quit the game, which may or may not cause 2 other members to quit. I'm just trying to hold it together, because I really am having a lot of fun with the game. And yes, his betrayal was a fun plot twist, and I made concessions to string him along in order to continue the game. The real problem is he has a difficult time separating my character's frustration with his character as a personal attack on himself. I think when he betrayed us he said something like "Now you learned a lesson in roleplaying" which in my mind is the last straw. Unfortunately my character, as well as the fighter's are stripped naked from a fire, and horribly burned down to 1 hp. I'll have to do some work to replace equipment and health before we can do this, in which case our diplomacy is important so the ninja (recently made into an Assasin) so he won't try to kill us with poison in our sleep. thanks
Senevri 03-23-06, 12:02 PM	I still don't think a coup de grace while he's sleeping violates the code of conduct... Acting honorable is a maybe, but I fail to see how granting him a quick and painless death as opposed to a duel. (Which is much more torturous, when you think about it. ...Honor is often painful, yes. But, seriously, you're mixing up mercy and honour here. Attacking someone while they're helpless is dishonourable. Besides, in a duel, it's possible for a paladin to give him a sound beating... and then heal him afterwards, to prevent him from dying. There's no way a Ninja can win, Mwahahaha! Hee Hee. *snerk* Okay, admittedly, it depends on the specifics of their character builds, and their grasp on tactics... And, a duel is the most unfavorable situation, but still. Around lv8-12, a Ninja only has AB that's worse by 2 to 3, from a Paladin. Defensive fighting, tumble, trip, caltrops, poison... Anyway, plenty of good advice around. To summarize: 1. Stay calm. 2. Talk to the player & DM. 3. Whack the bad guy. Either Belkarize or bring to justice. Remember: No torture.
Lincoln Hills 03-23-06, 03:58 PM	You and your fellow players need to vote him out of the group. Do it democratically: you (since you are not one of his housemates) are able safely to announce that you find his cheating and his in-game behavior are ruining your fun and you want him out of the group. Learning that his cheating is obvious, and that he's not the darling of his fellow players for being such a witty and considerate fellow, is probably going to come as a great surprise to the player. Ask the DM to accept votes from the players before the next session. It's his job to be impartial already, so he's the only reasonable one to hold the votes. In addition to allowing the players to vote anonymously, away from Mr. Ninja's accusing eyes, this gives Mr. Ninja a week to try to cajole his fellow players with promises of good behavior. Who knows - he might even KEEP a few of those promises. At the next session, the DM can announce whether the player stays in or not. He shouldn't give numbers: Mr. Ninja will look around the table, do some mental arithmetic, and start holding grudges against his suspects. Oh, and he'll hold a grudge against you whether he stays or goes. But from the sound of things, I think you'll manage to survive without this little toad's approval.
Ataur 03-23-06, 04:48 PM	My vote, as a long-time player of Paladins-----SMITE HIM---as soon as you can. I realize that you are injured. bide your time and try to heal yourself. If he heals you, so what. that does not make up for anything. If he kills you in your weakened state, that's your fault, you should have killed him much earlier in the adventure. I realize that it's a touchy situation in the house, but once you are at full strength again, it is time for you to give this cretin a "lesson in roleplaying" for himself. The char you have chosen would at no point permit this constant betrayal. you need to understand, there is no gray area for a paladin. there is good, and there is dead. that's it. period. end of discussion. it is incumbent on you to "roleplay" your character appropriately. i say, "roleplay" his sneaky a$$ right into the next world.
20goingon1232 03-23-06, 04:54 PM	Dead might be too good for him. That is why I favour crippling him completely and leaving him in the gutters of a city somewhere. When it reaches that stage, killing PCs, I find, do not make them learn their lesson. Utter humiliation followed by an explanation usually works better. At the very least, you'd get a bit of satisfaction out of it. When it reaches this stage, the player is very unlikely to listen to you, as if he were so inclined, he would have the x hundred times you have warned him beforehand.
Steef 03-23-06, 05:04 PM	Yeah the fighter is ooc my gf, and also the one who was to be sacrificed to the lich (being a virgin pc) He messed with the wrong chica with her. She has decided to change into her were tiger form (which has a strength of 30) and rip his hands off and eat them. The psion can't stop it because we picked up a jewel that cancels out all psionic powers within 35 ft, and haven't disposed of it yet. My char will be asleep so I can't tell her that it's "wrong" but when I wake up I will tell him it's karma, and he should leave the group. I do want to kill his character, and it may come down to it, but this idea sounds like fun, since it would make his bow shooting, poison using, lockpicking self completely worthless.
20goingon1232 03-23-06, 05:18 PM	High level Cleric/Druid spell: Regeneration. Watch out for that one. He may decide to come back after getting his hands back and DA you. I suggest when your paladin wakes up, you take one look at him and smite him. Honour != stupid. He had the advantage then, with you being naked and all. Now you have the advantage, with him being dis-armed. Nail his hide to the wall and then loot him.
dragonseth 03-23-06, 08:46 PM	I like teh idea of Smity Smity Death, but there are some negative influences in here. For paladins, it's not good and dead. They definitely have a code of honor, and can't just go around smiting evil wherever it is detected. They have to be blatantly evil. The ninja is, but just thought I'd point that out.
Ataur 03-24-06, 01:36 PM	You're probably right. I just get particularly bitter about this situation. Pacts with Lichs, batrayal for personal gain at the expense of the lives of other good pary members, HUMAN SACRIFICE. I don't see another option for this paladin. I know in my past games, were I in control of that character, my DM would have taken away my paladin adilities long ago. Maybe he was a little hard on his PC's but it definitely kept us honest. As far as the maiming and torturing, while fun, would not be an option for a paladin. the paladin does not relish the idea of killing. It is a duty, nothing more (now, if other party members were to cut off the ninjas hands without the paladin kniwing, he wouldn't have to heal the ba$tard). The best option (and most fun) that no one has discussed yet would be the venerated "DM Power Play". Particulary cruel is the mist that would transport the offending character to Ravenloft. (then again he might like that) Particularly funny would be my DM's favorite- Having a flaming ball of werewolves fall on his head (messy but effective) More realistic - simple - sick an Inevitable on him! happy gaming :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh
jasper 03-24-06, 04:46 PM	sounds like you playing with goober with power (he on the lease). Solution don't play with him even if means not playing until you find a new group.
Judging Eagle 03-24-06, 06:24 PM	And this kids is why DMs must be both willing to crush the life out of their player's characters. The DM should have made you fall long ago for not immediatly slaying the rogue party member. I don't mean in the sense of class levels, but rather as a description of personal character. This guy has no moral fibre to speak of. As soon as you found out that this guy had gone rogue on your party (selling you out) you should have called him out and killed him. As for the rise of this situation... 1. Blame your DM for being an utterly blind idiot. He allowed a party member to betray the party of their own will. That alone would make me take the character sheet and would now be a minion for the lich. Also, the DM should have known better than to give a dick the option to play a betraying rogue at all. 2. Has your paladin seen this character perform any evil acts in the past? Rob innocents, kill the helpless, profane the divine? It's sort of your fault too since your character wasn't doing his job as a paladin. 3. I probably shouldn't, but why is your paladin's lover a lycanthrope? Shouldn't your paladin be trying to either 1) cure her of her lycanthropy or 2) kill her before she spreads it further? 4. You said this character is now an assasin. Do you know what it takes to become an assasin? You have to kill someone for money and money alone. That beyond anything else that has happened should make your Paladin senses scream to bring this halfing before the authorities and have them cast Zone of Truth to reveal who he killed for money; if he makes a will save, ask him 'Why are you resisting? Stop resising or we will have to kill you since you are obviously a criminal'. Yes, I play living greyhawk in Ket... bloody annoying place, everyone carries either a sap or a merciful weapon and courts are judged with a 'triple' Zone of Truth (yes, they bring in 3 clerics to cast it...). Finally, I think your best way to solve this is to talk to this player and tell him he has to do the following: 1. Stop cheating in dice rolls 2. Actually be a party member, not a killer/mercenary who hangs out with you to sell you out to liches etc. 3. Play the game, not the meta-game. If you meta-game.. you shouldn't be gaining XP, let alone remain playing. Remind him that meta-gaming is as bad; actually it's worse than cheating since your character is not you. 4. Remind him that your character is not you, and his character is not him. It's roleplaying. That whole "now we're roleplaying" bit after he betrayed you will come back and bite him in the ass when your Paladin does his chosen duty and kills the blackgaurd. If he doesn't stop cheating, start doing the same. Roll behind your hand and always roll max damage criticals. If you're asked to show your rolls, ask why since the other player doesn't have to. If you do that once you'll get your point across very hard and very fast, when they realize that his cheating does nothing to help the game they'll be harder on him if he does the same. For his next character. Go to town and start looking/recruiting a new scout, in fact, specifically go out of your way and look to hire a good asetic monk/rogue or a knightly trained paladin/rogue. Tell the DM that the party is not going to allow anyone who doesn't fit those two criteria from joining. Now that's roleplaying. Assclowns who use the term roleplaying to cause unnessecary havoc get killed or booted from adventuring parties. Then again, I tend to play with people who are fairly serious about party cohesion... most of the time.
Ataur 03-25-06, 10:31 AM	I still think sending an Inevitable would be more fun. That move might be a little bit above your DM's pay-grade, tho.