Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Luega 09-05-05, 12:52 PM	So, I'm playing in this game where the DM's rather inexperienced. He just need practise, that's all. And of the time I spend at the gaming table, 95% of it is as a DM so I really enjoy these campaigns. It allows me to step back from the responability and enjoy the game in a different manner than I would as a DM. It's refreshing. But here's the problem. The DM seems really anoyed at my character, playing style, or both, but he won't say what or why. Let me try and explain. The party consists of : Me Bernard (NE male gnome ROG1/FTR1) Sneado (CG male gnome WIZ2) Dorin (NG male halfling ROG2) some cleric whose name I don't remember (LN male human CLR1/FTR1) As you can see, I'm the odd man out due to alignment. However, I managed to keep it hidden from the others, both players and characters alike. Bernard is just amoral and egosentric, not nessisarily evil in the word's strictest meaning. I figured he wasn't neutral, and certainly not good, so evil it was. He thinks of the other characters in the group as friends and would never do anything to hurt them... much, and certainly not on purpose. But here's what happened (the cleric's player is absent this session, so the DM runs him in his stead. He's just sitting in our base camp, waiting to heal our wounds): We were exploring some ancient ruins, dodging traps and undead alike. And then we encounter a stream inside a room. There's three doors, the one we came through, one on the other side of the room, and one across the stream. The water is moving as great speed, and none of us are proficient swimmers (0 ranks in swim). We decide to check what's through the door on the other side of the door first. The halfling's the best jumper of us (jump +0, aww man), so we tie a rope around his waist so we could haul him up should he fall into the stream. This, of course, is exactely what happens. The gap is about 6 feet or so, so he should have been able to make it. But **** happens. So I have to pull him up from the water, requiring some strength checks whitch I barely pass. The halfling and the other gnome decides that this is beyond our abilities, and that we should come back later. I, however, have other plans. I decide go all Indiana Jones, and wrap the loose end of the rope around my wrist with a quick flick, then run towards the stream to jump over it. As luck would have it I rolled a "1", for a total jump check of "0". I stumble on some loose rock as I am about to jump, and fall into the stream. Luckily I have a firm grip on the rope. The DM calls for a strength check from the halfling (he still has the rope tied around his waist, remember), which he promptly fails by rolling a "1". With a strength of 10, that amounts to a total of, well, "1". Taken totaly by surprise by my sudden stunt, he is unable to get a proper footing before he is pulled into the water. The stream pulls us under the surface and carried us away. Being a gnome, I have a high CON (16 actually), but the halfling is not possessed by such a high constitution, and quickly begins to drown. Luckily we reach the surface before he perishes, and I have to do some CPR and manage to stabilize him. Now, the other players recognized this as roleplaying, and knows that sucky dice rolls make incidents like this inevitable once in a while. The DM, however, seemed utterly annoyed at this episode. But this isn't the real problem. This is what happened later that session: We're back at base camp and resting for the evening. Suddenly we spot a group of humanoids moving towards us. The halfling and I decides to hide. Each for our own resons. I did it because if the approaching characters turned out to be hostile, attacking from hiding is most preferable (rogue, remember). So, the group arives and is revealed to be another group of adventurers. They turn out to be friendly, and our gnome wizard decides to blow my cover by looking straight at me and telling me to get out of the shadows(Aww man, I make a mental note about punishing him for that later). One of the adventurers turns out to be a wizard, and our own wizard is ecstatic. Arcane discussion ensues, and the evening is concluded by some spell trading. The NPC wizard gives the PC wizard some "mystery spell". It a second level spell and the NPC wont tell us what it does, except for; "you'll know when you see it". Fair enough. Then, after convincing the NPCs that there's no need for a guard from each of the parites, I selflesly volenteer to take first shift. No, I mean; "selfishly" take first shift, as I intend to rob them blind in their sleep. Well, after about half an hour of grappling with my bloodthirst/conscience about whether I should kill them or just simply rob them, I start to formulate a plan. I decide that the NPC paladin should be the victim of my nefarious scheme. I stealthily removes his holy symbol and hides it in some rubble nearby (that should teach that goodie'two'shoes a lesson). Then for my cunning flank. I take one of their backpacks and hides it a few rooms into the dungeon. There's no way they can't notice that the backpack is missing. I intended to come clean at once, claiming that I have problems and couldn't help myself. And, hopefully, they wouldn't notice that the holy symbol was missing (it occured to me that this was pretty farfetched, but what the hell). However, when I get back from hiding the backpack the paladin is missing. Panick strikes. And since I apparently spent three and a half hour stealing the necklace and hiding the backpack (the DM seems to hava a poor grasp of time), I had to go to sleep before the elf woke up before I could do anything about that (actually I should have stayed awake until he woke up, but I forgot in the panic that arose with the missing paladin). Morning came, and I slept a while longer than the others. When I finally woke up, I was confronted with the theft at once. The NPCs produced both the back pack and the necklace. Uh-uh busted. Well, seeing that there's not much to do other than "appologize" and hope that they would forgive me. Now, this is where the DM decides to reveal what his mystery spell does. He described it as an "alarm-invisibility-sanctuary-protection from evil" spell (second level, huh?). What it does is that when an evil character steals from you, an alarm goes off in your head, you become aware of what the evil character did to you, and you turn invisible so that you can spy upon him. It feels like the spell was created just to set me in my place. I tell you, he's gunning for me. But anyways, the paladin then decides to tell the party about my evil alignment. The other characters are shocked, as well as their players. "What, are you evil"!? However, the PC take my side as I have never acted "evil" in their presence, and have been nothing but a friend to them. The NPCs then take off. It seems like the only purpose of the encounter was to expose me. Am I being paranoid? And that's not all. One last thing happened this session. As I said, the player of the cleric is not attending this session. So when we decide to venture into the dungeon again we need to be healed first. But the DM, running the cleric, refuses to heal me because I'm evil. Now, I'm the only warrior in the team, and I'm low on HP. The other two characters are a wizard and a rogue, so their combat ability is below what's healthy for adventurers. I then explains that if I'm not healed, I can't fight. The DM refuses to heal still. But we decide to go into the ruins anyways. We encounter some zombies and a fight ensues. I can't participate in this fight so much because of my low HP. The DM gives lectures me about this, and says that I should behave. Not helping the others in a fight like this is lousy of me. The other characters are knocked to negative HP, and I have to rescue them. I play it safe and fights defensively and prevails. 2 HP remaining, phew. I save the PCs and drags them back to base for healing. This pretty much concludes the session. A hefty discussion ensues, and the DM tells me to get a grip on myself and that I have to start acting properly. If I don't get my act together he'll "have to kick me from the group". I asked him what I did wrong but he wont tell me. All he said was that I was acting like a jerk. Am I? Did I do anything wrong? I honestly don't know, and he won't tell me. Arghh! Anyhow, I just needed to get this off of my chest. If you happen to have an oppinion about this it will be greatly appreciated. Edit: Correcting some typos. Ever the perfectionist. Edit II: The same. Those typos just sneak in everywhere, don't they.
MasterRookie 09-05-05, 01:07 PM	well sounds pretty cheap to me. I think either he just doesn't like evil PC's or he doesn't understand the situation very well . Or maybe your not telling us something of importance. If a player in my game had avoided a fight because of low hp I'd be fine. If he then proceded to save the entire groups lives then I'd give him double XP.
Morwen 09-05-05, 01:08 PM	Obviously we haven't heard the story from the other point of view, but it sure seems like he's got it in for your character somehow. I guess he doesn't like the "good party with evil pc included" part of it, but if that's the case he should just tell you rather than basically creating a spell for the sole purpose of giving your alignment away to the group and playing the cleric in a way that he refuses to heal a friend and fellow adventurer (however, being lawful, the cleric would be opposed to stealing).
lilwhiterabbit 09-05-05, 01:09 PM	Did you speak with the DM about your alignment before taking it? Did you explane to him why you were NE? I would agree with the DM that hiding the holy symbol and backpack were jerky moves. It seems like you did this for no other reason then for the fact that you could and from my stand point thats not realy justified. But thats just me. Id also say that you might want to speak with the DM one-on-one away from every one else to see if hes more willing to explain himself. LWR
Luega 09-05-05, 01:20 PM	Well, maybe the robbing of the paladin was kinda, well jerky. However, the reason for doing so sounded so reasonable in my head at the time. Stinkin' paladin deserved it I tell you. Comming here and being all good and so on. But the DM seemes to be the only one who has a problem whith this. The other players and I engaged in some pretty interesting role playing after I "came out" with my evil nature. As to whether I spoke to him about my alignment, he told us that we could play whatever we wanted. Maybe he just didn't expect anyone of us to be evil. But he knew of it before we started to play, as he reviewed all of our character sheets first. Maybe I should talk to him one-on-one. I really want to make this work. As I said, I don't get to play that often as I'm generally the DM. The next session is sometime later this week, so I'll get to talk to him then. Thanks for the repiles guys.
Gurthoron 09-05-05, 02:22 PM	Have your character leave. Have another character meet the others. Have him be NG or something. Your DM does not know how to deal with evils, and he is being an idiot about it. Since he does not seem to have any grasp of logic, replacing your character seems like the best course. I know it sucks, but I suppose its better than being kicked out of the group. Well, maybe. Or change the character's alignment. You just heroically rescued your party members. Bam, you are a neutral. Admittedly, the cleric doesn't realize this but if the other person starts playing it again you will probably be getting healed again anyway. Avoid the random annoying things like thievery just for the act of it, and you would be fine. Some work, and he would change to good. I hate my suggestions because this is really the DM's problem, not yours. But if you want to quickly fix it with minimal arguing with the DM, these are the paths I would contemplate. Good luck with this, and I hope your DM gets the stick out of his a$$.
Ni! 09-05-05, 08:52 PM	Your DM is an idiot. If he doesn't want you to play an evil character, he can tell you so. However, he has not said so yet. He has just screwed you over as much as possible. Did I mention he was a jerk too? However, he gave you a spell that, basically, prevents anyone from ever stealing from you again. Make use of it. Sleep in the street, whatever. You can never, ever have anything stolen from you. Let him feel the consequences of his actions. Also, seeing as your DM has no clue what your alignment realy means, change your alignment to TN. Play it exactly the same way. He can change your alignment back if he thinks you deserve it. However, I'm willing to bet he wont.
Verelor 09-05-05, 09:15 PM	The DM should've just told you that you can't play an evil character. Everything would've went fine. Anyway, with a paladin in the party, all that really has to occur is the paladin detecting evil once (a 1st-level ability) and the DM saying "Um, it's right next to you". But apperantly the DM didn't have the patience not to railroad it".
High Octane 09-06-05, 12:13 PM	If a DM says the spell is "You'll see" Then he hasnt decided it yet, but it will SCREW you over later or save your ass later. In any case, its a cheap metagaming ploy. I think he just added the other party to try to tempt you to act in a way he felt was lame. You acted in character (If a character hates paladins, he hates paladins! After all, to evil character, they are stuck up punks.) Not to mention you WERE looking after your own interests trying to disable his ability to pop detect evil. You were a bit sneaky about it and a bit foolish in trying to screw over those people for no reason. Being evil is not a crime, and your party defended you. Kudos to them. Using Order of the Stick as an example (its a better one than you think) Think of Belkar. He is OBVIOUSLY evil, but the cleric Durkin would heal him because for better or worse, he helps the party out more often than he hurts them! I see this situation is being almost EXACTLY that. Your DM is being a jerk. At least as far as I can tell. We SHOULD hear his side though.
crossbow 09-06-05, 12:43 PM	I’m going to take a slightly different stance on this than most of the posters here. First, I have to agree that your DM was out of line as to how he handled the situation and was showing his inexperience. However, (and it’s a big however) there is a huge difference between Neutral Evil and Neutral Annoying. You were neutral annoying verging on chaotic stupid. Such behavior should be punished when it impacts the NPC’s around you, especially when they are another party of adventurers. If you really spend 95% of your gaming time as a DM, than what on earth are you doing playing a character that is bound to disrupt another DM’s game, especially when you know the guy doesn’t have that much experience? That’s not only annoying, it’s rude. If you want to be neutral evil, that’s fine. Be neutral evil and not neutral annoying and disruptive.
Luega 09-06-05, 12:45 PM	That's true. As said, about 95% of my time at the table is as a DM, so I know that DMs and players almost never share the same view of things. Things that may seem perfectly reasonable to the DM might not be so to the players, and vice versa. However, what I find really annoying is that he wont tell me what I'm doing wrong. If I really am disruptive, I wouldn't mind changing the character or my behaviour, or even both, I don't want to ruin the game. But I don't know what to change. But I'll get a chance to talk to him later this week, so I might get him to tell me then. Edit: Heh, seems like there need for some slightly more information as to why I robbed the paladin. It's not an excuse, merely an explanation (I realize that I might not have been the best move I could have made). The NPC acted rather arrogant towards us when they arrived. Primarily towards me, but this is probably because the paladin knew I was evil long before they actually arrived. During the RP moments that ensued my character was largely left out (my character, not me. I had a blast, but my gnome was kinda angry over this. He sees himself as kind of a swashbuckler. He adventurer for fame and recignition, and to increase his wealth. The fact that he was so rudely ignored didn't please him at all.). I then decided to punish the paladin the only way I knew how, by robbing him. The backpack was merely a diversion, the real target was his holy symbol. Edit II: And Crossbow, I really appreciate your words, seriously. All I want is to get to the bottom of this.
Murrdox 09-06-05, 01:21 PM	It seems your DM TOLD you that you could play any alignment you wanted when you started... But then it seems he instantly decided that he did not like the group dynamic that having an evil character in the party created, and subsequently gave you a hard time about it. I'd simply tell him (with the other players there to back you up) - "Look, I'm playing an evil character, and from time-to-time I'm going to do evil things. I'm not looking to ruin the party, stab my friends in the back, betray everyone, or set fire to entire villages and ruin the adventure. But I am going to do evil things. It's not right of you to single me out and punish me for roleplaying my character. If you changed your mind, and do NOT want me to play an evil character, then tell me right now, so I can roll up a new character, or change my alignment. However, by not healing me just because my alignment is evil and I stole something, YOU are the one making the campaign less fun, not me". That's a mouthful, but get that general gist across. It sounds to me like your DM just honestly doesn't know how to deal with an evil party member though. The attitude of the Paladin towards you probably indicates that he is of the persuasion that anyone who has an evil alignment is obviously guilty of SOMETHING and should be punished automatically by anyone good who "discovers" their nature.
Twisted Puppy 09-06-05, 01:48 PM	So, I'm playing in this game where the DM's rather inexperienced. He just need practise, that's all. And of the time I spend at the gaming table, 95% of it is as a DM so I really enjoy these campaigns. Maybe I should talk to him one-on-one. I really want to make this work. Yes,you definitely should talk to him one-on-one. If I had to guess, I'd say that one reason he has not come out and said something to you is that he is intimidated by the fact that you have spent a lot of time DMing. To me it's more of a case of inexperience rather than, as some posters seem to believe, the DM being a pain. It's always tough being a new DM when you know that an experienced DM is at the table. Perhaps he feels like he is dropping sufficient hints that he is uncomfortable with you playing an evil character, but doesn't want to go back on his original statement that you could play whatever you wanted. From the tone of your posts, I don't think you meant to make it difficult for him. However, with your experience you should know that introducing an evil character to a good party is VERY difficult even for an experienced DM, even if the other players are ok with it. Perhaps you should, as you said, offer to change characters, taking a good or neutral aligned character. Something about you or your character is bothering your DM, and you need to find out what it is. From your attitude, I'm assuming he's a friend and you want him to enjoy what he is doing. I know it's rough when you finally get to be a player and can't play the character you'd like to. In this case, from what you've said, helping this guy out will benefit you in the long run.
crossbow 09-06-05, 02:11 PM	Luega, Your further explanation helped me understand what was going on a lot better so I won’t say any more about your characters actions or alignment. You knew what you were doing and had some reason for the actions and that’s generally good enough for me. As to your DM problem, Murrdox probably has some of the best advice on that. Talk to your DM, explain to him that what he was doing isn’t right and if he has a problem with your alignment or your actions, you’ll work with him to correct things. If he isn’t willing to discuss what he finds a problem with your character, it’s going to be really hard to fix things.
Luega 09-06-05, 02:15 PM	To me it's more of a case of inexperience rather than, as some posters seem to believe, the DM being a pain. <snip> From your attitude, I'm assuming he's a friend and you want him to enjoy what he is doing.True. He is a dear friend of mine, and if make him seem like an unsympathetic bastard, I appologize. He is really a nice person. Looking back, I should probably have chosen another concept for my character. It's just that I don't get to play that often, and when the opportunity presents itself, I jump on it. I had like a gazillion character concepts in my head when we started. It was probably unfair of me to choose one of the evil ones. Well, as I said, I see him later this week and I'll adress the matter then. I think I'll appologize to him for doing what I did, and offer to change character. I'd really like him to continue this campaign, as much for my own pleassure as that of the entire group. My own campaigns have begun to suffer as of late, due to a lack of inspiration. This campaign is just what I need.
WotC_Huscarl 09-06-05, 02:58 PM	I'd argue that what your character did wasn't evil, it was chaotic. Your actions were geared to cause confusion, embarrassment, and annoyance. An evil character would have just slipped a scorpion into the paladin's bedroll. From that viewpoint, you could argue that you weren't playing a NE character correctly. However, I agree with other posters that it sounds like your DM just doesn't want to deal with evil characters, and he should have been up front about that. Steve
Nom 09-06-05, 07:34 PM	Bernard is just amoral and egosentric, not nessisarily evil in the word's strictest meaning. I figured he wasn't neutral, and certainly not good, so evil it was.Ignoring the rest of the post, I find this summary odd. He's "amoral and egocentric". If he's just out for himself, with no particular desire either to aid others or to dominate them, then that's almost textbook N (in the animal sense). A bias to structure and order would make him LN, a bias to freedom (as an ideal) would make him CN, and no particular preference, just out for himself, would make him TN. Neutral in the sense of deliberately seeking a middle path rather than simply not having a preference (or care) is actually the much rarer version, at least in 3.5. Why do you describe him as "not neutral"?
Luega 09-07-05, 01:47 AM	He's evil in the sense that he belives the end justifies the means. He wouldn't shy from stealing, or even killing. He's the kind of guy that would do anything to reach his goals. While he isn't about random violence, nor do he care much for rules. He's in it for his own gain, and damned be those that stand against him. Edit: Actually, those are traits shared by many adventurers. However, while good adventurers differentiate between "monsters of the wild" and the civilized folk of the land, Bernard doesn't. He wouldn't feel bad about slaughtering an ogre and taking it's treasure. Neither would he fell bad about doing the same to the city councilor if the situation called for it. He wouldn't seek out and slay the councilor "just because he can", that would be stupid. But he wouldn't refuse to do it if he had to, or if it furthered his own schemes.
danielinthewolvesden 09-07-05, 08:13 AM	Generally, you shoudln't play a "lone evil" in a generally Good group. Especially if (as it seems) you might be stealing from that group- which might be the major issue. And ESPECIALLY if there is an inexperienced DM. Start a new PC, and have you old PC "mysteriously" leave the group. Without stealing anything, and with returning what you took.
LCD2YOU 09-07-05, 08:45 AM	Good for you!
Callista 09-07-05, 08:53 AM	I don't see anything wrong with your Evil character-- you just have an inexperienced DM who isn't ready for him. Three options: 1. Stay Evil. Form personal friendships with the other characters. That way they all know they're not going to get killed by you. Your DM may still try to kill your character, though. 2. Plan out a "change of heart" scenario. Generally, good ways to accomplish this are: Fall in love, get yourself rescued by a Good-aligned person, or have a near-death experience. Then RP that your character believes he's been altogether too much of a bastard in the past, and that he now sees other people as somewhat more valuable. After he performs a few Good acts, change his alignment to Neutral something-or-other. 3. Leave the party--they're just cramping your style. Create a new character. If you still want to have the same sort of character as the old, that's easy enough to do--just have him be a Neutral guy who, while he'll do anything to accomplish his goals, still won't step all over other people to do it. Maybe he charms (or Charms) them instead, or maybe he's simply adept at sneaking around so they don't know what he's doing in the first place. Anyway, it's easy enough to play a cynical/uncaring/etc. Neutral character who would be Evil, if he actually ever did anything Evil.
Ut-Napishtim 09-07-05, 09:41 AM	I'd say change your alignment to CN. Unless you've been torturing or raping people and you're not telling us about it then that's really what you're playing anyway. Stealing from the other party was a CN act, a truly evil character would have killed them. Saving the other party members? A truly evil character would've abandoned them, and then come back to loot their stuff when the monsters had left. Your character sounds like the classic, juvenile 'secretly evil' character. As others have said around here, alignment is a thermometer - not a straight jacket. There is no 'secretly evil' because if you are truly evil then your actions will reflect that and ultimately expose you. Sure, you can hide it for a time to suit your needs, but in the end those desires will overcome your character. Like an earlier poster mentioned your character is borderline Chaotic Stupid. Yeah, your DM is being something of a jerk, but if you knew he was inexperienced and you're so experienced then isn't it also partly your responsibility to play a more cooperative character? I would've simply changed your alignent to neutral when you saved the rest of the party. If you cried: But I'm evil! then I'd say: Prove it. Not that I'd run a game like this guy, but I think you get the idea. In all honesty we're hearing only your side of the story here, and your tale causes me to question just how much 'experience' you actually have. Your character talks big, but doesn't have the ganas to forsake all others and grab the brass ring for himself. That makes you CN, the diet coke of evil. Just one calorie, not evil enough to put an E on your character sheet. In fact most of your actions were really more foolish and annoying than evil, which makes your guy borderline CS. :twocents:
KoboldSlayer 09-07-05, 10:12 AM	I think your DM, being new, made a newbie DM mistake. People who are new at DMing just plain SHOULD NOT let secret-evil characters into their games. Even though the player can handle it (it certainly appears you can), the DM has not exercised their secretive muscles yet. Nor do they have any clue of how to manage a character that is going to do things such as yours did. Things that diverted from the storyline, diverted from what he intended, and generally (to his view) probably wasted some gaming time that could have been spent slaughtering zombies and clearing the ruins. That's not true of ALL new DMs, especially ones who have spent years as a player, and especially those who have played their own secretive-evil types and know how they would want to be treated as a player in a similar situation. But, in general, it's a bad idea for new DMs to allow evil characters. That said, you might give him a break and throw him a DM-bone. I liked the suggestion of changing your alignment, since you did act quite heroically: twice... you might have shed some of your evilness. It's early in the game for the others to "rub off" on you, but in a traumatic, near-death drowning and zombie-killing experience, maybe it just did. To the poster who said that "you'll see" spells are metagaming and used for either screwing players or bailing them out: This instance certainly was! However, I would say that most DMs don't use it that way. For example, if I have a wizard who can only cast 1st level spells among my party and he finds a scroll with a 2nd-level spell on it...even if it's a spell from the PHB...if he doesn't have any knowledge of it and reads it but doesn't comprehend it, I tell him "you can't tell what it says". True, later this means I can change that "melf's acid arrow" to "web" if I think it's more beneficial to the wizard or would tickle the player's fancy to have instead, as long as no one has told him what's on the scroll...but I generally don't. I think having alot of "wait and see" is fun, and my players tend to agree. (At least none have complained.)
TheRedRobedWizard 09-07-05, 11:05 AM	I'm going to have to rest the blame on both people. It is partially the DMs fault for not explaining why he's upset. Its also partially your fault for taking advantage of a newbie DM by playing a "HAY GUYZ! I"M EVEL IN A GOOD PARTY!!1! ZOMG I"M SO WITTY KTHXBYE!" character. You wouldn't want someone pulling that kinda stuff with you DMing, I'm going to guess. "Oooh, that paladin is so high and mighty, so I'll steal the physical manifestation between him and his god." <--- That isn't evil, that's douchery. Roleplaying is one thing, douchery is another. Just say no to douchery. -TRRW
Callista 09-07-05, 11:57 AM	Wha?... True Evil can stay in hiding forever if necessary, especially non-Chaotic. Lawful Evil, especially, will have long-range plans; and don't discount the power of friendship, even to an Evil character. A Chaotic character will steal; but he might not steal from his party, especially if they're his friends/they're protecting him/they're stronger than he is. And, for that matter, not all Chaotic Neutral characters are selfish jerks; they could easily just be free spirits. An Evil character will murder; but he might not murder his party, especially if they're his friends/they're protecting him/they're stronger than he is. Evil characters don't have to be undisciplined and random, either. Don't asume that an Evil character must be Chaotic, or that a Chaotic character must be Evil. They aren't linked like that at all. Being willing to hurt others for your own benefit doesn't mean you're uncontrolled or random, too; being undisciplined or free-spirited has no bearing on what you think is wrong to do to another person. Evil-aligned people use logic and reason just like anyone else; and the only thing that makes them different from non-Evil people is that they're willing to do things that would be repugnant to others. Even Chaotic Evil people don't just kill randomly; they always have a reason, even if they thought of that reason on the spur of the moment (i.e., "That rich merchant is alone in the wrong part of town; if I kill him I can steal his things."). Not all Evil characters will leave the party to the monsters and then loot them later. Chances are, an Evil character will defend his companions in any given fight. It is only when he sees clear benefits to murder that he will commit that act; because if he murders just because he can, he's a madman. Evil characters have relationships, friendships, and even love, because they're people just like anyone else. Those relationships are tainted; but they're there. Evil does not necessarily mean anti-social. Let's use this analogy with a different alignment: Good. Good characters will make sacrifices. The thing that makes them Good, and not madmen, is that they do this for a purpose, generally for the good of others. They don't do it "just because I'm good"; they do it because "he needed my help." Just like Good characters have a purpose for Good acts, so Evil characters must have a purpose for Evil acts--in fact, they probably need much more of a purpose than Good characters need for their actions. Evil acts are often dangerous, because society in general will punish those who perform them; and they are not beneficial to the character in and of themselves. Unless the character is an evil cleric or some other person who is dedicated to the purpose of Evil as an ideal, generally (unlike Good characters) he does not have allegiance to Evil itself, he just believes in his own pleasure to the exclusion of others'. This is in contrast to Good characters, who often believe in Good for its own sake, whether they are idealists or not.
Luega 09-07-05, 01:44 PM	So, it looks like saturday is the magic day. I'll appologize to him for my behaviour, whether or not I'm right. When I think of it, it's not really that big a deal. Besides, he is my friend and I don't want to ruin his fun. I could just as easily create a new character and still enjoy myself. Now, I even have a plausible reason for changing alignment. Seeing how his friends stood up for him even after his evil alignment was revealed, and all that. Might actually prove interesting, trying to prove to himself and those around him that he can actually be a good person. Thanks for all the input guys, really appreciate it. Really.
Andrew_980 09-07-05, 03:58 PM	Well, apropriate role playing ("this is how he IS...") can easily be countered by the like ("you stole my holy sybol in this dangerous place and risked the lives of my freinds, defend yourself") instead of DM lecture. This is why loner and evil characters are a BAD idea in group based games.
jasper 09-07-05, 04:42 PM	Let us see 0. you have a newbie dm and you 1. …..I, however, have other plans… gee not a group player especially when the newbie dm is now trying to run a pc as npc. 2. Steal form the party even thought most are npcs. Again not a team player. 3. The group does something stupid on top of dm is doing stupid. He has excuse because of 0. 4. the dm wouldn’t talk to about his problems is. See 0. You are being a jerk. I don’t care if he said you could play Amosdeus , have Demigorgon as a pet and a buck Rodgers jet pack. You are the one with experience in the hot seat and going out of your way to be a pill.
Ut-Napishtim 09-08-05, 09:25 AM	Evil-aligned people use logic and reason just like anyone else; and the only thing that makes them different from non-Evil people is that they're willing to do things that would be repugnant to others. I'd tend to disagree with your interpretation. Evil characters are not willing to do things that are repugnant to others, they enjoy doing them. A neutral character will torture someone if he has to, and while finding it unpleasant will tell himself 'The ends justifies the means.' A good character that truly respects the dignity of sentient life should not. Evil characters like torturing and raping people because of the rush of power and control it gives them - that's what makes them evil. Ask any headshrinker and they'll tell you that rape is about power and control - not sex. The touchy, feely 'Evil people can love too!' concept is really inappropriate for a game with a basic alignment system like D&D. Did Saddam actually love his sons? Probably did, but that didn't stop him from using them as much as he possibly could to bolster his own power, and he didn't suddenly jump in to "save" them at the last second (or even seem to care) when they bought the farm. Calculating and controlled? Yes. Valuing love, family, and/or freindship? No. If you actually care about what happens to some people (enough to jump in and risk your own life to save them) but not others then you're neutral - not evil. If not, what makes you evil? Because you want money and power for yourself? Hey, welcome to the club. That's pretty much the driving force behind the success of capilalism. By your logic every capitalist nation on the face of the planet is evil, from the mail-boy stealing office supplies to the Donald himself. Personally I'd say that's not true, everyone wants a little power for themselves. Wanting it so badly you torture, rape, and would step over your own mother to get that satisfaction is what makes one truly evil. There's a difference between being willing to do something when circumstances require it (survival canibalism) and doing it because you like to. :twocents: