Post/Author/DateTime	Post
evilviper77 06-18-05, 02:54 PM	I'm currently a lvl 6 ranger/2 Arcane Archer/1 Sorceror. My problem is that my ability Imbue Arrow in the SRD states "At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted." So therefore if i am wearing light armor, trying to imbue an arrow, i have to roll a d10 to see if i botch the spell because of spell failure. To me that kind of ruins the whole feel of it, so is there any feats, abilitys, or anything out there that can lower an armor's spell failure short of getting feats like still or silent spell?
JohnnyShotMe 06-18-05, 02:59 PM	I think mithril or whatever version of the armor will make the penalty less.
Jaime_Wolf 06-18-05, 03:20 PM	Among other benefits, mithril armours have 10% less arcane spell failure than other armour. In the SRD look at the file SpecialMaterials for more.
evilviper77 06-18-05, 03:32 PM	cool, thanks guys =), but i got a question, i just looked into the Mithral idea but i can't make leather armor mithral can i? nor can i make studded leather mithral either right? Because if i can't, then i'm still stuck with a 10% spell failure which is much to high IMO.
Vercingetorix 06-18-05, 03:58 PM	Chain shirt seems to be an extremely popular choice. I hear it's the best kind of light armour, but I have a tendency to play heavily-armoured clerics, so I'm not so sure.
Ra-Tiel 06-18-05, 04:02 PM	Hi. === @evilviper77: What kind of spells do you want to cast from the arcane list? Don't forget that only spells you cast as a sorcerer and spells that have a somatic component are subject to the ASF. Neither are spells you cast as a ranger, nor are spells you cast as a sorcerer but that don't have a somatic component. And seriously, I hardly see any 1st level sorcerer spell with CL1 worth the effort to be imbued. What spells exactly are the cause for your troubles? Perhaps if you explained what you wanted to do with your character, the people here could help a bit more? === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
evilviper77 06-18-05, 04:15 PM	Ok, my character currently uses a +1 buckler/Mithral chain shirt combo. That makes for a spell failure of 15%. The spells he knows for 1st lvl are feather fall/true strike What the problem is, is the fact that i want to get scrolls of fireball and deep slumber and cloudkill etc etc to imbue into my arrows, but with a 15% spell failure, i don't like wasting my hard earned cash, or having a spell botch right when we need it most.
Ra-Tiel 06-18-05, 04:52 PM	Hi. === @evilviper77: Ok, my character currently uses a +1 buckler/Mithral chain shirt combo. That makes for a spell failure of 15%. The spells he knows for 1st lvl are feather fall/true strike What the problem is, is the fact that i want to get scrolls of fireball and deep slumber and cloudkill etc etc to imbue into my arrows, but with a 15% spell failure, i don't like wasting my hard earned cash, or having a spell botch right when we need it most. And there's one problem of imbue arrow, why IMHO it is not worth the trouble. According to the SRD, the spell has its point of origin set where the arrow lands. Fireball has long range, that means at the minimum casterlevel of 5 the spell has a range of 600ft. Cloudkill has a medium range, meaning at least a range of 170ft. Ok, deep slumber is only close, so here you'd have an clear advantage. But the real problem is: what if you miss because of blur/displacement/invisibility/darkness/...? Nowhere in the rules is explained/described/defined what happens to such a shot. There is no way to determine where the "arrow lands" AFAIK. So you're potentionally going to waste a lot of spells with that ability because of these circumstances. In my opinion you'd in almost all cases be better off casting the spell normally instead. Hmmm... I'm not that savvy into magic item creation, but I wonder if it was possible to create, say, a scroll of a stilled fireball? If that was possible, it should take care of many of your problems. Or you could get a level of spellsword and get the twilight enhancement for your armor. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
evilviper77 06-18-05, 05:15 PM	I agree, it would almost be better to just fire off the spell, but if i imbue my arrow, i get the spell to go off, as well as the dmg from my arrow, so its like attacking with my bow AND firing a spell, otherwise this would be a broken ability. As far as blur and such things go, i would just roll a d10 and assign the eight squares around the creature and the square he is on as 1-9, and re-roll on a 0 to see where the arrow hits.
Fargren 06-18-05, 05:20 PM	I agree, it would almost be better to just fire off the spell, but if i imbue my arrow, i get the spell to go off, as well as the dmg from my arrow, so its like attacking with my bow AND firing a spell, otherwise this would be a broken ability. As far as blur and such things go, i would just roll a d10 and assign the eight squares around the creature and the square he is on as 1-9, and re-roll on a 0 to see where the arrow hits. But the arrow could continue, instead of falling in an adjacent square. I would probably en up 300ft away from the target.
evilviper77 06-18-05, 05:28 PM	i suppose, but anyways, is there anything short of taking another prestige class to get my ASF down to 0%? Can u have mithral leather? or mithral studded leather armor? or a mithral buckler?
NinjaGarret 06-18-05, 06:18 PM	You could always try going armor-less. And to answer your questions, mithral is a type of light, fine metal. So no mithral leather or studded leather.
evilviper77 06-18-05, 06:23 PM	You could always try going armor-less. And to answer your questions, mithral is a type of light, fine metal. So no mithral leather or studded leather. Yea, i figured it wouldn't work for leather, but do you think it might work for studded? after all, it does have metal studs in it among other metal things
Jaime_Wolf 06-18-05, 07:52 PM	Mithril works for things that the main part of is metal (for example an arrow, since the functional part of an arow is the arrowhead, not that a mithril arrow would be too useful). On studded armour, the most important part is the leather, or, if you really wanted to be picky you could say they're equal in importance, but the studs clearly aren't where most of the armour bonus comes from. Also, ASF applies to sorcerors AND wizards AND anything that uses arcane spells as opposed to divine (assassin applies ASF to instance). I'd suggest you somewhat ignore AC actually, you're a ranged fighter and a wizard, so just act like a wizard or a ranged fighter and let the fighters handle taking damage. Also keep in mind that a buckler interferes with firing a bow unless I'm mistaken you lose the benefit of the buckler's AC when you use your bow (unless you take a feat somewhere) as the bow is a two-handed weapon. As for imbue arrow, it's completely not worthless later, with a distance bow, far shot, and a composite longbow you can get crazy range.
Ra-Tiel 06-19-05, 03:55 AM	Hi. === @evilviper77 I agree, it would almost be better to just fire off the spell, but if i imbue my arrow, i get the spell to go off, as well as the dmg from my arrow, so its like attacking with my bow AND firing a spell, otherwise this would be a broken ability. Yes, that's a small advantage, but not a really convincing one. As opposed to the spell, you always have a 5% chance of missing your target (nat1 on the attack roll) and then it's undefined where your arrow lands and releases the spell. I've also some builds for arcane archer, because I want to play one as my next character, but I largely ignored imbue arrow. The only way I can think of making this ability somewhat worthwhile is something like fighter 1/wizard 5 /eldritch knight 4/arcane archer 10. This way you get up to 4th level spells, and still have a BAB of 17. But with only 1 sorcerer or wizard level, IMHO it is hardly worth the trouble. And I also think that you cannot use scrolls with imbue arrow (because you have to manipulate the bow, the arrow and the scroll at the same time), although I might be wrong here. But true strike is a very solid choice for your character, simply because it doesn't have any somatic components and therefore isn't subject to ASF. --- As far as blur and such things go, i would just roll a d10 and assign the eight squares around the creature and the square he is on as 1-9, and re-roll on a 0 to see where the arrow hits. I think you confuse some things here. What you just said is similar to the deviation table for grenade-like weapons (alchemist's fire, acid flask, holy water,...). But sorry, I cannot see any reason why an arrow fired from eg a composite longbow should deviate in the same directions and/or for the same distance as a thrown flask of acid. Especially when you consider that on "shorter" distances you shoot directly - and not indirectly - the arrow suddenly hitting a square that's closer to you than the target seems somewhat strange. And really strange for an Arcane Archer. --- i suppose, but anyways, is there anything short of taking another prestige class to get my ASF down to 0%? Can u have mithral leather? or mithral studded leather armor? or a mithral buckler? The twilight enhancement from The Book of Exalted Deeds. IIRC, this special ability reduces the ASF of a suit of armor by -10% or -15%, not sure on it. It is only a +1 equivalent, and therefore shouldn't be too expensive for your character. Of course, your DM might require a hefty roleplaying prerequisite (it's from the BoED, after all), like freeing a celestial from the captivation of some demons or such, but it is worth the price IMHO. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
SnowbearK 06-19-05, 10:14 AM	So your fireball has a 600ft range. Nice. Arcan Archer/Deepwood Sniper build (3.0 at least, haven't tried it in 3.5 yet) can get a range of almost 2,500 ft with NO range penalties (true strike ability) at his full BAB with said fireball. I think that'd surprise Mr. Dark Wizard, sleeping in his tower. As for ASF, 10% isn't bad. It's about the same odds of an enemy spellcaster countering you.
Ra-Tiel 06-19-05, 12:41 PM	Hi. === @SnowbearK: *sigh* So your fireball has a 600ft range. Nice. Arcan Archer/Deepwood Sniper build (3.0 at least, haven't tried it in 3.5 yet) can get a range of almost 2,500 ft with NO range penalties (true strike ability) at his full BAB with said fireball. I think that'd surprise Mr. Dark Wizard, sleeping in his tower. As for ASF, 10% isn't bad. It's about the same odds of an enemy spellcaster countering you. And at what level? Let me guess: my wizard has already level 9 spells when you have that 2500ft range with your bow, right? Do you really want to compete with a wizard/incantatrix/archm build? Or Iot7fV? I guess not. Ok, you can shoot your bow for 0.75km without penalties, so what? The caster can do much worse things at even greater distances. BTW: how do you want to target me? To target me, you need to see me. To see me at that distance, you need to succeed on a spot check with a -250 penalty. How many ranks in Spot does your archer build have? I guess not enough. And surprising a wizard with contingency, moment of prescience and foresight? I'd really want to see that one. Have you heard of the level 6 spell Energy Immunity? Duration: 24h. Effect: what the name says. And which highlevel wizard sleeps in a tower? Come on! Mord's Mansion is the place to go. Also, you'll always be behind in casterlevels vs dispels, because standard scrolls always use the minimum caster level. The arcane archer is a nice, solid PrC with some good features (the always magical arrows being the best of them), but in no way can he compete with a dedicated caster. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
Encard 06-19-05, 12:53 PM	i suppose, but anyways, is there anything short of taking another prestige class to get my ASF down to 0%? Can u have mithral leather? or mithral studded leather armor? or a mithral buckler? I believe there's an armor enhancement in the Book of Exalted Deeds called Twilight that decreases spell failure by 10%, meaning that a twilight mithril chain shirt +1 would have 0% ASF.
SnowbearK 06-19-05, 01:43 PM	Greetings, _Ra-Tiel. Actually, you can do it by 15th level (again, 3e), with the right spells/items, the spot check is negligible. If the search function were working, you could back up a few years and find the build. But again, it's simply an example of why the Arcane Archer's imbue ability is not such a waste. As for "taking on...blahblahblah" any competently played spellcaster is nigh well unstoppable compared to any melee, ranged, or stealth class. A 20th level wizard should be near-impossible to kill, much like a Great Wyrm, without taking extreme measures. Which is why weaknesses such as overconfidence, megalomania, incompetent minions, etc. exist.
evilviper77 06-19-05, 03:20 PM	Well, if you were to imbue an arrow, and fire it at an enemy (sometimes missing AC is just the arrow not penetrating far enough to do dmg, so therefore the spell would still go off and hit them), they wouldn't get a chance to counter-spell it (if my recollection of counter-spelling is correct), so it would have some other uses as well. I just wish you could pre-prepare a number of arrows equal to 1/2 (?) your AA lvl (rounded down) with AoE spells on them or something like that, the only problem being if you got many shot you could if built right shoot off 4 different high lvl fireballs all in one round, which would be insanly cheap. Maybe something more like you can have one pre-prepared, but only one (like death arrow) except it only takes a half-round to prepare and you can only imbue an arrow once a day. Then you could manyshot a regular arrow with an imbued one, making it a worthwhile feat, because after all the DMG says that the reason elf archers are so feared is because of their arcane archers. BTW, is it possible to many shot any of the AA's special arrow abilitys?
Ra-Tiel 06-19-05, 04:06 PM	Hi. === @SnowbearK: I didn't want to come off rude or snapped, sorry about that. It is just that the arcane archer PrC is a solid choice, but with the build the original poster presented, imbue arrow is a barely useful class feature. --- I've found out that there are 2 ways leading to arcane archer: the fast one, and the useful one. The fast one is something like fighter 6/wizard1 or fighter2/ranger4/sorcerer1. But this way you have little spellcasting ability, therefore youre forced to make that :censored: casterlevel check for almost each and every scroll you want to use. The useful one is somthing like fighter 1/wizard5/eldritch knight 4. With this build, you focus first on spellcasting, improving your casterlevel. With eldritch knight you up your casterlevel and your BAB further. You get up to level 4 spells, where some really useful spells come in (polymorph, anyone?). The second build can draw much more benefits from imbue arrows than the first, even if it is only the advantage of not having to make casterchecks for using many scrolls. The first build can of course use that ability, but it shouldn't be the main focus for it. A better way would be to use the money you save because of Enhance Arrow to make your bow a killer weapon with special abilities and go for the various archery feats from CWar (ranged disarm, ranged sunder,...). --- For the second part of your post: I wholeheartedly agree with you. Hmm... can I take "incompetent minions" as a flaw for my BBE mastermind? ;) :rofl: ... Kind of reminds me of "The Order of the Stick" and the lich Xykon... :D === @evilviper77: Well, if you were to imbue an arrow, and fire it at an enemy (sometimes missing AC is just the arrow not penetrating far enough to do dmg, so therefore the spell would still go off and hit them), they wouldn't get a chance to counter-spell it (if my recollection of counter-spelling is correct), so it would have some other uses as well. No, you can be counterspelled. The description of the ability is that you cast the spell and imbue it in the arrow, with the casting and imbueing being a standard action and the attack being part of that action. It clearly states that you cast the spell, so it can be counterspelled. --- And you can miss because the shot was too short or too far the target moved out of the way/dodged you underestimated the winds magic blocked the arrow (wind wall, everything with a deflection bonus...) the arrow was destroyed before (wall of fire,...) you couldn't see the target clearly (pretty much everything with concealment) ... There are just too many possibilities why you missed that it is in no way acceptable to assume that the arrow was stuck in the armor/shield so the spell still hit the target. --- I just wish you could pre-prepare a number of arrows equal to 1/2 (?) your AA lvl (rounded down) with AoE spells on them or something like that, the only problem being if you got many shot you could if built right shoot off 4 different high lvl fireballs all in one round, which would be insanly cheap. Maybe something more like you can have one pre-prepared, but only one (like death arrow) except it only takes a half-round to prepare and you can only imbue an arrow once a day. Then you could manyshot a regular arrow with an imbued one, making it a worthwhile feat, because after all the DMG says that the reason elf archers are so feared is because of their arcane archers. That's the price to pay for the ability to shoot fireballs with your arrows at all. Imbue Arrow is and stays a standard action, with the shooting of the arrow being part of that standard action. That's just to prevent any abuse with loopholes like manyshot, greater manyshot or such a feat. That is called a balanced ability. You gain the ability to shoot spells with your arrows, but you loose the ability to make mutliple attacks if you use that feature. If at all, you could call the PrCs in the DMG the only one that are really balanced. Nothing to compare to madness like hulking hurler, frenzied berserker, incantatrix, and so forth. And arcane archers are so feared because the more powerful and magically proficient can use tactics like you suggested (with spells like fireball, cloudkill, and such) imbued in their arrows, protected by spells like stoneskin, polymorph, mirror image, and displacement. Can you imagine the sight when a squad of 10 level 10 arcane archers opens fire on a battalion of humans from an ambush in a forrest? Don't forget the fact that the arrows they shoot are magical, while each bow captured is merely masterwork, with no traces or transmutation magic left. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
Twisted Puppy 06-21-05, 11:07 AM	Hi. I've found out that there are 2 ways leading to arcane archer: the fast one, and the useful one. The fast one is something like fighter 6/wizard1 or fighter2/ranger4/sorcerer1. But this way you have little spellcasting ability, therefore youre forced to make that :censored: casterlevel check for almost each and every scroll you want to use. The useful one is somthing like fighter 1/wizard5/eldritch knight 4. With this build, you focus first on spellcasting, improving your casterlevel. With eldritch knight you up your casterlevel and your BAB further. You get up to level 4 spells, where some really useful spells come in (polymorph, anyone?). I've found the most flexible AA build, if you are planning on getting the most out of the Imbue Arrow ability, is Wizard 12/ AA2. After your second AA level, keep on going with Wizard levels. This gives you good flexibility with your spells and if your Dex bonus is decent your to hit bonus is acceptable. If you absolutely, positively have to hit your target, a quickened True Strike will do the trick. Wizard 1: Weapon Focus, Longbow (given limited spells, makes you almost as good as anyone else with a bow) Wizard 3: Combat Casting ( on general principles :) ) Wizard 5: Empower Spell Wizard 6: Point Blank Shot Wizard 9: Precise Shot Wizard 10: Quicken Spell Wizard 12: Spell Penetration (maybe at 3rd if you don't plan for your caster to be close enough to anyone to need Combat Casting. If you took SP at 3rd, take greater SP here. By this time you should not NEED Combat Casting.) Maybe I have misunderstood earlier posters, but I don't think you can imbue an arrow with a spell read off a scroll. The description specifically mentions that "it takes a standard action to CAST the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is CAST, or the spell is wasted." (DMGv3.5, p177)
chrisnd 06-21-05, 11:27 AM	A 20th level wizard should be near-impossible to kill, much like a Great Wyrm, without taking extreme measures. Which is why weaknesses such as overconfidence, megalomania, incompetent minions, etc. exist. Oh my...not to get off topic here, but it is nice to see that someone other than me agrees that a Great Wyrm is "near-impossible" to kill. In fact, in the list of "1001 things that say the party is too powerful" list that has been floating around here for so long, one of my contributions was: "You know your party is too powerful when they actually kill a properly played Great Wyrm Red Dragon." Thank you, Snowbeark, for telling it like it is!
AramilWindwalker 06-21-05, 12:21 PM	I've found the most flexible AA build, if you are planning on getting the most out of the Imbue Arrow ability, is Wizard 12/ AA2. After your second AA level, keep on going with Wizard levels. This gives you good flexibility with your spells and if your Dex bonus is decent your to hit bonus is acceptable. If you absolutely, positively have to hit your target, a quickened True Strike will do the trick. Wizard 1: Weapon Focus, Longbow (given limited spells, makes you almost as good as anyone else with a bow) Wizard 3: Combat Casting ( on general principles :) ) Wizard 5: Empower Spell Wizard 6: Point Blank Shot Wizard 9: Precise Shot Wizard 10: Quicken Spell Wizard 12: Spell Penetration (maybe at 3rd if you don't plan for your caster to be close enough to anyone to need Combat Casting. If you took SP at 3rd, take greater SP here. By this time you should not NEED Combat Casting.) Maybe I have misunderstood earlier posters, but I don't think you can imbue an arrow with a spell read off a scroll. The description specifically mentions that "it takes a standard action to CAST the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is CAST, or the spell is wasted." (DMGv3.5, p177) your first and third level feats would need to be switched, because of the BAB+1 prereq on WF:Lb, IIRC But otherwise, nice build
evilviper77 06-21-05, 02:19 PM	Maybe I have misunderstood earlier posters, but I don't think you can imbue an arrow with a spell read off a scroll. The description specifically mentions that "it takes a standard action to CAST the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is CAST, or the spell is wasted." (DMGv3.5, p177) I thought that you could cast off of a scroll? Because if you can't cast off of a scroll and imbue an arrow.......man that would suck
Twisted Puppy 06-21-05, 04:53 PM	I thought that you could cast off of a scroll? Because if you can't cast off of a scroll and imbue an arrow.......man that would suck That's one reason the Arcane Archer is restricted to elves (favored class: wizard) and half elves. They (potentially) have a wide variety of spells that will be effective, as opposed to a sorcerer's limited spell repertoire. Maybe someone has asked one of the gurus at WotC and got a different answer, but my interpretation is the AA actually has to cast the spell, not read it off a scroll. Hey, if he can imbue the arrow from a scroll, why not from a staff or wand? See how quickly that gets broken? IIRC, you said your character is a Sorcerer 1 in addition to ranger and AA levels, and you're concerned that the ASF from your armor might cause you to waste your money. You will likely be wasting your money spent on scrolls of fireball, cloudkill, et al at any rate since the likelihood of you actually successfully using those scrolls is not that good. Were I one of the other members of your party, my character would be standing well away from you anytime you pulled out a scroll. At least, depending on my PC's knowledge of magic, he would stand away after your first catastrophic botch (assuming he survived.) Another thing to remember when you chart the course for your potential AA is to ask the DM if he will allow more than one prestige class. A lot of the builds I've seen mentioned on this thread assume that more than one prestige class is allowed. I know a number of DMs who do not allow more than one prestige class, unless you have taken all the levels (usually 10) in your first PrC. That is up to the individual DM. Remember, he does not HAVE to allow PrCs at all. (I'm not criticizing the builds or DM prerogatives here. I'm just pointing out that you need to ask him first. It can potentially save both of you some heartburn.)
evilviper77 06-21-05, 05:16 PM	At lvl 6 ranger, i was looking into a PrC to choose, and the AA caught my eye. I read about imbue arrow, and looked into how hard it was to read and use scrolls, and it's not really hard at all. Just make SC check of 1+lvl of spell, then your pretty much good to go. But i'll have to look into whether or not you can cast off of a scroll to use it...
Twisted Puppy 06-21-05, 06:43 PM	At lvl 6 ranger, i was looking into a PrC to choose, and the AA caught my eye. I read about imbue arrow, and looked into how hard it was to read and use scrolls, and it's not really hard at all. Just make SC check of 1+lvl of spell, then your pretty much good to go. But i'll have to look into whether or not you can cast off of a scroll to use it... Actually, the DC is 1 + scroll's caster level. True, that's only a 6 in the case of a fireball. Note, however, this is one skill check in which a natural "1" is automatically a failure. (DMGv3.5, p238) A disadvantage to scrolls is that their save is based on the minimum attribute (Int, Cha, Wis) required to cast the spell. The saves will almost always be easier vs a scroll than a cast spell.
evilviper77 06-21-05, 07:08 PM	I agree, the save will be easy to beat, but my main problem now is whether i will be able to cast scrolls onto my arrows and imbue them, or if i actually have to cast the spell.