Arcane Hierophant? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Hierophant? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tyrandor
01-03-08, 03:46 PM So if I understand correctly, you could end up as Wizard5/Druid5/Arcane Hierophant10... and thus have access to level 8 spell from both the Wizard and Druid Class, as well as Wild Shape.

Is it just me or does that sound incredibly powerful? >_>

And if not... why?

Anybody tried one of these guys?
Merestil Haye
01-03-08, 04:05 PM So if I understand correctly, you could end up as Wizard5/Druid5/Arcane Hierophant10... and thus have access to level 8 spell from both the Wizard and Druid Class, as well as Wild Shape.

Is it just me or does that sound incredibly powerful? >_>

And if not... why?

Anybody tried one of these guys?That's about right. :)

Of course it's not as strong as it might be. You miss out on 9th level spells so you never get Shapechange. Drd 7 / Wiz 3 / AH 10 to get 9th level Druid spells and 7th level Wizard would be more powerful.

Probably slightly worse on the power scale would be a Drd 3 / Wiz 3 / Arcane Hierophant 10 / Mystic Theurge 4.

9th level Wizard spells, 9th level Druid spells and Wildshape as a 13th level Druid.
ZiggZagg
01-03-08, 04:05 PM If you do it right, you can actually get 9th level spells from both. My one friend figured it out, though I don't remember how he did it.
Sinfire Titan
01-03-08, 04:10 PM So if I understand correctly, you could end up as Wizard5/Druid5/Arcane Hierophant10... and thus have access to level 8 spell from both the Wizard and Druid Class, as well as Wild Shape.

Is it just me or does that sound incredibly powerful? >_>

And if not... why?

Anybody tried one of these guys?

Whoever wrote the PrC was smoking something seriously strong, because it is far more powerful than that. It is the best example of what Mystic Theurge always wanted to be, but never had the power to do. What more, it makes your Animal Companion into your Familiar. Both of those are powerful on their own, and making them into one is just unsane. If properly built, it could be a house. You only need 9th level spells in either Wizard or Druid casting, not both.
tyrandor
01-03-08, 04:20 PM 9 level Druid vs 9 level Wizard spell... what wins?

Having a hard time believing Druid spells beat out Wizard's spell >_>
Fatalis_902
01-03-08, 06:04 PM 9 level Druid vs 9 level Wizard spell... what wins?

Having a hard time believing Druid spells beat out Wizard's spell >_>

They're both good, and both have access to shapechange, but you want to go for the Druid level 9 spells. The reason being that you want better wildshape, which comes from more druid levels.
Merestil Haye
01-03-08, 07:01 PM I'm not convinced that the Wildshape increases that come in at 14th to 16th levels compensate for losing 8th and 9th level Wizard spells.

You need to consider them in pairs.

You could go Wiz3/Drd7/AH10. This gets you 9th level Druid spells, 7th level Wizard and Wildshape as a 17th level Druid.

You could go Wiz3/Drd5/AH10/MT2. This gets you 9th level Druid spells, 8th level Wizard and Wildshape as a 15th level Druid.

You could go Wiz3/Drd3/AH10/MT4. This gets you 9th level Druid spells, 9th level Wizard and Wildshape as a 13th level Druid.

Taking 2 levels of MT instead of Druid gets you 8th level Wizard spells. You lose the ability to Wildshape into an Elemental of up to Large size once per day. Wildshape duration drops 2 hours. That seems like a fair trade to me.

Taking 4 levels of MT instead of Druid makes the above trade and also gives you 9th level spells, but loses one use of Wildshape and the ability to Wildshape into a Huge creature. Wildshape duration drops another two hours. The additional losses would make me hesitate; the final decision would depend on the character concept.

I also make it that taking 4 levels of MT means you lose 1 point BAB and 1 point Fort save, balanced by +1 Reflex save and +2 Will. Additionally, you are down 8hp (average) and 8 skill points and the points you do get are spent on a more academically focussed skill list.

Ultimately I'd probably play the character with two sets of 9th level spells, but then I've always preferred to play a spellcaster. My very first character was a magic user (the 1e class).
Vanulf
02-19-08, 03:46 PM Except that you cant enter the PrC until 8th level. you need a BAB of +4, which Druid 3/Wizard 3 does not give you. you need Druid 4/Wizard 3 or Druid 3/Wizard 4.
Bauglir
02-19-08, 03:56 PM You could always take Mystic Theurge first.
Vanulf
02-19-08, 04:17 PM You would have to be Druid 3/Wizard 3/ MT 2 to qualify. Plus Druids do not get Knowledge: Religion or Knowledge: Arcana as a class skill which would use up a lot of your skill points just to qualify for MT.
Bergtann
02-19-08, 04:19 PM So if I understand correctly, you could end up as Wizard5/Druid5/Arcane Hierophant10... and thus have access to level 8 spell from both the Wizard and Druid Class, as well as Wild Shape.

Is it just me or does that sound incredibly powerful? >_>

And if not... why?

Anybody tried one of these guys?

This is probably going to come across as wrong, but its you.

The normal check to see if a combination of classes is powerful, is to see if it is better than just sticking with its base class for 20 levels.

A Wizard 5/Druid 5/Arcane Hierophant 10 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=992878)is not only severely weaker than a Wizard 20 or Druid 20, he is much weaker than a Wizard 17 or Druid 17. 9th level spells are just that good. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=992815)

The AH is a very weak PrC which is normally only distinguished by being a step up from the Mystic Theurge (one of the top placements for worst PrC ever (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=801060&highlight=worst+prestige+class)).
It does have a point of functionality, if you can enter a 20th level character into play directly. But it is not worth sucking for levels 6-19 to get there.

Also, if you can use it to power fast-advancement PrCs, it looks different. But that is the other Prcs being good.
CrimsonDeath
02-19-08, 05:40 PM You would have to be Druid 3/Wizard 3/ MT 2 to qualify. Plus Druids do not get Knowledge: Religion or Knowledge: Arcana as a class skill which would use up a lot of your skill points just to qualify for MT.

Except Wizards get Knowledge (any) as a class skill. Even if you take the Druid level first, you can qualify with just your base Wizard skill points, without using any Druid skill points or any skill points from a high Intelligence modifier.

Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge +2 is a valid and relatively powerful (if MAD) build, though it is a late bloomer (getting each additional level of spells three levels late, only attaining level 9 spells at character level 20).
Vanulf
02-19-08, 06:26 PM I'm not saying it's not a legitimate build, as a matter of fact I'm working on just such a build for an upcoming campaign. All I said was that you're using roughly 2/3 (provided you have an 18 Intelligence) of your Wizard (unless you take Wizard at 1st level) skill points to qualifiy.
Sinfire Titan
02-19-08, 07:08 PM I'm not saying it's not a legitimate build, as a matter of fact I'm working on just such a build for an upcoming campaign. All I said was that you're using roughly 2/3 (provided you have an 18 Intelligence) of your Wizard (unless you take Wizard at 1st level) skill points to qualifiy.

Or just spending a Feat on the Druid's side.
StevenO
02-19-08, 07:26 PM I'm not saying it's not a legitimate build, as a matter of fact I'm working on just such a build for an upcoming campaign. All I said was that you're using roughly 2/3 (provided you have an 18 Intelligence) of your Wizard (unless you take Wizard at 1st level) skill points to qualifiy.
Given some of the other multiclassing insanity that only works if you overlook the skill point requirement spending 2/3 of your relatively "normal" skill point allotment is a bargain. Insane is telling me how "easy" it is to get into Arcane Trickster with only a single caster level loss by going Rogue1/Wizard4/UnseenSeer1/AT; now that is crazy when looking at the skill points involved. Even a lot of builds that dip into Mindbender fail to realize how the skill points work out. So often the skill prereqs for a PrC take a backseat to everything else (BAB, Spellcasting, Saves, and even abilities) that they are often ignored when making a "killer" build.

All of the Dual Progression PrCs become more powerful by favoring one side over the other. A 15/15 split can be OK but a 13/17 split is almost always preferable beause it grants higher level spells. The dual progression PrCs that have a 3/3 basic entry split all suffer from extended "periods of weakness" during which time they often fall well behing the power curve; they start giving up current power to get into the PrC and it usually isn't until the PrC is nearly finished that they can really begin to say they may have caught up. Some other PrCs provide ways around the 3/3 problem but they should probably be left out of polite conversation.

The best dual progression PrCs are the ones you can get into with a 1/4 split. Granted these normally aren't full dual progression it makes it possible to trade in a couple casting levels in one class for a sizable number of casting levels in another. The two I'm thinking of are both in Complete Mage with Ultimate Magus generally letting one trade in 2 casting levels of wizard for 9 in sorcerer and the Eldritch Disciple which trades 2 casting levels of cleric in for 11 levels of Warlock Invocations.
eamon
02-20-08, 03:27 PM By level 20, your actions are extremely valuable, and an arcane hierophant gains no more.

A full level 20 wizard might well be more powerful simply by being more focused, and thus having more powerful spells (using feats and items to enhance them).
A wizard also can cast more level 9 spells per day.

Even at level 20, I doubt an arcane hierophant is more powerful than a wizard.

Now, let's be honest - how often do you play at level 20?

At all other levels, the arcane hierophant is much much weaker than a pure druid or wizard. If you choose the class, you're playing for flavor or being the ultimate toolbox. You're definitely not going to be very powerful - at all.

I'd say it's probably even weaker than mystic theurge, since it's either more MAD, or a level behind in terms of casting progression on one of the classes - and finally, since cleric/wizard represents greater diversity than druid/wizard, in terms of spell selection.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tyrandor 01-03-08, 03:46 PM	So if I understand correctly, you could end up as Wizard5/Druid5/Arcane Hierophant10... and thus have access to level 8 spell from both the Wizard and Druid Class, as well as Wild Shape. Is it just me or does that sound incredibly powerful? >_> And if not... why? Anybody tried one of these guys?
Merestil Haye 01-03-08, 04:05 PM	So if I understand correctly, you could end up as Wizard5/Druid5/Arcane Hierophant10... and thus have access to level 8 spell from both the Wizard and Druid Class, as well as Wild Shape. Is it just me or does that sound incredibly powerful? >_> And if not... why? Anybody tried one of these guys?That's about right. :) Of course it's not as strong as it might be. You miss out on 9th level spells so you never get Shapechange. Drd 7 / Wiz 3 / AH 10 to get 9th level Druid spells and 7th level Wizard would be more powerful. Probably slightly worse on the power scale would be a Drd 3 / Wiz 3 / Arcane Hierophant 10 / Mystic Theurge 4. 9th level Wizard spells, 9th level Druid spells and Wildshape as a 13th level Druid.
ZiggZagg 01-03-08, 04:05 PM	If you do it right, you can actually get 9th level spells from both. My one friend figured it out, though I don't remember how he did it.
Sinfire Titan 01-03-08, 04:10 PM	So if I understand correctly, you could end up as Wizard5/Druid5/Arcane Hierophant10... and thus have access to level 8 spell from both the Wizard and Druid Class, as well as Wild Shape. Is it just me or does that sound incredibly powerful? >_> And if not... why? Anybody tried one of these guys? Whoever wrote the PrC was smoking something seriously strong, because it is far more powerful than that. It is the best example of what Mystic Theurge always wanted to be, but never had the power to do. What more, it makes your Animal Companion into your Familiar. Both of those are powerful on their own, and making them into one is just unsane. If properly built, it could be a house. You only need 9th level spells in either Wizard or Druid casting, not both.
tyrandor 01-03-08, 04:20 PM	9 level Druid vs 9 level Wizard spell... what wins? Having a hard time believing Druid spells beat out Wizard's spell >_>
Fatalis_902 01-03-08, 06:04 PM	9 level Druid vs 9 level Wizard spell... what wins? Having a hard time believing Druid spells beat out Wizard's spell >_> They're both good, and both have access to shapechange, but you want to go for the Druid level 9 spells. The reason being that you want better wildshape, which comes from more druid levels.
Merestil Haye 01-03-08, 07:01 PM	I'm not convinced that the Wildshape increases that come in at 14th to 16th levels compensate for losing 8th and 9th level Wizard spells. You need to consider them in pairs. You could go Wiz3/Drd7/AH10. This gets you 9th level Druid spells, 7th level Wizard and Wildshape as a 17th level Druid. You could go Wiz3/Drd5/AH10/MT2. This gets you 9th level Druid spells, 8th level Wizard and Wildshape as a 15th level Druid. You could go Wiz3/Drd3/AH10/MT4. This gets you 9th level Druid spells, 9th level Wizard and Wildshape as a 13th level Druid. Taking 2 levels of MT instead of Druid gets you 8th level Wizard spells. You lose the ability to Wildshape into an Elemental of up to Large size once per day. Wildshape duration drops 2 hours. That seems like a fair trade to me. Taking 4 levels of MT instead of Druid makes the above trade and also gives you 9th level spells, but loses one use of Wildshape and the ability to Wildshape into a Huge creature. Wildshape duration drops another two hours. The additional losses would make me hesitate; the final decision would depend on the character concept. I also make it that taking 4 levels of MT means you lose 1 point BAB and 1 point Fort save, balanced by +1 Reflex save and +2 Will. Additionally, you are down 8hp (average) and 8 skill points and the points you do get are spent on a more academically focussed skill list. Ultimately I'd probably play the character with two sets of 9th level spells, but then I've always preferred to play a spellcaster. My very first character was a magic user (the 1e class).
Vanulf 02-19-08, 03:46 PM	Except that you cant enter the PrC until 8th level. you need a BAB of +4, which Druid 3/Wizard 3 does not give you. you need Druid 4/Wizard 3 or Druid 3/Wizard 4.
Bauglir 02-19-08, 03:56 PM	You could always take Mystic Theurge first.
Vanulf 02-19-08, 04:17 PM	You would have to be Druid 3/Wizard 3/ MT 2 to qualify. Plus Druids do not get Knowledge: Religion or Knowledge: Arcana as a class skill which would use up a lot of your skill points just to qualify for MT.
Bergtann 02-19-08, 04:19 PM	So if I understand correctly, you could end up as Wizard5/Druid5/Arcane Hierophant10... and thus have access to level 8 spell from both the Wizard and Druid Class, as well as Wild Shape. Is it just me or does that sound incredibly powerful? >_> And if not... why? Anybody tried one of these guys? This is probably going to come across as wrong, but its you. The normal check to see if a combination of classes is powerful, is to see if it is better than just sticking with its base class for 20 levels. A Wizard 5/Druid 5/Arcane Hierophant 10 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=992878)is not only severely weaker than a Wizard 20 or Druid 20, he is much weaker than a Wizard 17 or Druid 17. 9th level spells are just that good. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=992815) The AH is a very weak PrC which is normally only distinguished by being a step up from the Mystic Theurge (one of the top placements for worst PrC ever (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=801060&highlight=worst+prestige+class)). It does have a point of functionality, if you can enter a 20th level character into play directly. But it is not worth sucking for levels 6-19 to get there. Also, if you can use it to power fast-advancement PrCs, it looks different. But that is the other Prcs being good.
CrimsonDeath 02-19-08, 05:40 PM	You would have to be Druid 3/Wizard 3/ MT 2 to qualify. Plus Druids do not get Knowledge: Religion or Knowledge: Arcana as a class skill which would use up a lot of your skill points just to qualify for MT. Except Wizards get Knowledge (any) as a class skill. Even if you take the Druid level first, you can qualify with just your base Wizard skill points, without using any Druid skill points or any skill points from a high Intelligence modifier. Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge +2 is a valid and relatively powerful (if MAD) build, though it is a late bloomer (getting each additional level of spells three levels late, only attaining level 9 spells at character level 20).
Vanulf 02-19-08, 06:26 PM	I'm not saying it's not a legitimate build, as a matter of fact I'm working on just such a build for an upcoming campaign. All I said was that you're using roughly 2/3 (provided you have an 18 Intelligence) of your Wizard (unless you take Wizard at 1st level) skill points to qualifiy.
Sinfire Titan 02-19-08, 07:08 PM	I'm not saying it's not a legitimate build, as a matter of fact I'm working on just such a build for an upcoming campaign. All I said was that you're using roughly 2/3 (provided you have an 18 Intelligence) of your Wizard (unless you take Wizard at 1st level) skill points to qualifiy. Or just spending a Feat on the Druid's side.
StevenO 02-19-08, 07:26 PM	I'm not saying it's not a legitimate build, as a matter of fact I'm working on just such a build for an upcoming campaign. All I said was that you're using roughly 2/3 (provided you have an 18 Intelligence) of your Wizard (unless you take Wizard at 1st level) skill points to qualifiy. Given some of the other multiclassing insanity that only works if you overlook the skill point requirement spending 2/3 of your relatively "normal" skill point allotment is a bargain. Insane is telling me how "easy" it is to get into Arcane Trickster with only a single caster level loss by going Rogue1/Wizard4/UnseenSeer1/AT; now that is crazy when looking at the skill points involved. Even a lot of builds that dip into Mindbender fail to realize how the skill points work out. So often the skill prereqs for a PrC take a backseat to everything else (BAB, Spellcasting, Saves, and even abilities) that they are often ignored when making a "killer" build. All of the Dual Progression PrCs become more powerful by favoring one side over the other. A 15/15 split can be OK but a 13/17 split is almost always preferable beause it grants higher level spells. The dual progression PrCs that have a 3/3 basic entry split all suffer from extended "periods of weakness" during which time they often fall well behing the power curve; they start giving up current power to get into the PrC and it usually isn't until the PrC is nearly finished that they can really begin to say they may have caught up. Some other PrCs provide ways around the 3/3 problem but they should probably be left out of polite conversation. The best dual progression PrCs are the ones you can get into with a 1/4 split. Granted these normally aren't full dual progression it makes it possible to trade in a couple casting levels in one class for a sizable number of casting levels in another. The two I'm thinking of are both in Complete Mage with Ultimate Magus generally letting one trade in 2 casting levels of wizard for 9 in sorcerer and the Eldritch Disciple which trades 2 casting levels of cleric in for 11 levels of Warlock Invocations.
eamon 02-20-08, 03:27 PM	By level 20, your actions are extremely valuable, and an arcane hierophant gains no more. A full level 20 wizard might well be more powerful simply by being more focused, and thus having more powerful spells (using feats and items to enhance them). A wizard also can cast more level 9 spells per day. Even at level 20, I doubt an arcane hierophant is more powerful than a wizard. Now, let's be honest - how often do you play at level 20? At all other levels, the arcane hierophant is much much weaker than a pure druid or wizard. If you choose the class, you're playing for flavor or being the ultimate toolbox. You're definitely not going to be very powerful - at all. I'd say it's probably even weaker than mystic theurge, since it's either more MAD, or a level behind in terms of casting progression on one of the classes - and finally, since cleric/wizard represents greater diversity than druid/wizard, in terms of spell selection.