Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NoSix 03-14-06, 06:58 PM	I usually play am archer type character. I enjoy the ability to dish out alot of damage from a range and still have the armor and and HP to take hits, if need be. Which leads me to the obvious class decision- Ranger. Effective at both ranged and melee, decent armor, decent hp, and spells to boot. My kind of class. But who likes to be the "cookie-cutter"? Other options, other options... Fighter, vast ammounts of feats, automatic weapon and armor proficiencies. If I grab a weapon focus (Bow type), i can get weapon specialization (fighter only feat) among other feats that help my ranged. Alright, ranged, armor, HP... Even an improved ranged damage output upon the ranger, and I can still grab tracking if I want and even dabble in Melee feats. So, wich would be the better Ranged class, the "Archer" or the Ranger? -By "better" i mean over-all, not only in combat but also decently useful in Adventuring, though the majority of which should be left to the utillity classes.- Also, which would put out the most damage with ranged? Which would be more useful to the group, in all compasities? If there is a damage/utility "Curve" where would it be, in effect, which is "better" in the begining (1-5) the middle (7-12) and the end (15-20)? Lets end my internal conflict once and for all :) A little additional information, I usually end up playing the "Leader", that may change your respective opinions on usefulness to the group, seeing as how perhaps a fighter may not be as inherently Wise, intelligent, or charismatic as his ranger cohort.
HammerHeart81 03-14-06, 10:42 PM	First of all, I suggest taking this to the optimization board, that's where you'll get the advice you need. A good build for archery would be fighter multiclassed with scout(core class form complete adventurer). Allows you to have feats and combat abilities from fighter while the scout gives you some good skills as well as the skirmish ability that works well with ranged weapons.
allenchan 03-14-06, 10:52 PM	Mechanicly speaking, dont discount Ranger spells, some of them are incredibly potent. Dont discount their skills, either. A Fighter might do more damage, but without a good Spot skill, he wont be shooting at as much as a Ranger. :P But its not either/or. Better then either two would be a multiclass of them. Ranger 2/Fighter 4 is a solid start to most archery characters.
Board_Rider 03-15-06, 12:08 AM	From a pure combat point of view I think that the Fighter makes a far superior Archer as the feats come quicker. I mean, really, Rapid Shot can be had at first level with a human fighter. Dip this with Scout and you are doing decent damage and if the feat Shot on the Run is taken then you become a moble bowmen as well. But don't discount the Ranger either. I love that class and while they may not make the optimal archer feat wise, those spells do give a nice edge. Especially if you look into the Complete Adventurer.
NoSix 03-15-06, 12:33 AM	Alrighty, thats kinda what i thought. I rarely Multiclass, i dont really like the xp reduction, tho as human i can neglect that. And ive never heard of the scout class, infact ive never even seen that book at my local shop, ill look into it. Thanks guys
Kapalen 03-15-06, 01:37 AM	A Wood Elf(Monster Manual)'s favored class is ranger, so that would negate xp penalty too.
Zherog 03-15-06, 12:13 PM	I'm not sure how you or your DM feel about "dipping" into Prestige Classes. I'll toss this out there any way. Grabbing two levels of Order of the Bow Initiate gives you some really nice stuff - including the ability to not suffer an attack of opportunity for firing your bow while threatened. If you're OK with 3.0 material, Masters of the Wild has a class called Deepwood Sniper. A couple of levels in this class will rock your archer's world with cool abilities such as increasing the critical multiplier by one. Getting back to the fighter vs ranger discussion. I prefer multiclassing the two as well, but I like having more Ranger levels. Better skills, class abilities (even if they aren't great abilities, they're more than the fighter gets) - especially favored enemy. Allenchan recommended ranger 2/fighter 4, which isn't bad at all. Allow me to recommend the opposite now - ranger 4/fighter 2. A human, half-elf, dwarf, or wood elf wouldn't have multiclass penalties with that build (or Allenchan's).
Jherid 03-15-06, 01:02 PM	First of all, I suggest taking this to the optimization board, that's where you'll get the advice you need. And the first thing that'll get mentioned is that a cleric would make a better archer than a fighter or ranger. An elf would be the best race for it since you get free proficiency with a longbow and access to the elf domain (which gives point blank shot for free), or a human who has access to a diety that has a longbow as a favored weapon and the war domain. Someone did up a really nice thread showing how a cleric is only slightly behind the two in damage at lower level levels, but then passes them up around 8 or so. Plus he would always be useful to the party, what with full cleric casting abilities and all. A little additional information, I usually end up playing the "Leader", that may change your respective opinions on usefulness to the group, seeing as how perhaps a fighter may not be as inherently Wise, intelligent, or charismatic as his ranger cohort. Clerics tend to be pretty wise and charismatic, plus they have diplomacy as a class skill. ;)
NoSix 03-15-06, 04:20 PM	And the first thing that'll get mentioned is that a cleric would make a better archer than a fighter or ranger... he would always be useful to the party, what with full cleric casting abilities and all. Clerics tend to be pretty wise and charismatic, plus they have diplomacy as a class skill. Wow, I never even thought of cleric as a potential competator. They have a middle Base attack bonus advancement. They have low skill advancement (same as fighters). So inherently, not that great... Lets look at spells, ones that aid my ranged abilities: Cantrips... Guidance- +1 to my roll 1st level... Bless- +1 to everyones Divine favor- +1 attack and damage /3 levels. Magic weapon- +1 bonus on wep. Ok, I kindof see what your getting at, a buff-happy archer. You said arroud 8th level this power would finally out-damage an archer. Level 4 spell then at 8th level... lets see what those have: -Air walk- useful to an archer, but not +damage. -Divine favor- Ok, now we are getting somewhere. -Greater Magic Weapon- Cool cool. This could be interesting to play, but I dont see the damage output your talking about, tho I do see the potential. The stacking of the +1-2 bonuses could add up, perhaps to a devistating level. And the Cleric would be very useful to the group. The question would be to go good, or evil; the ability to heal the party vs the increased damage output. There are severl down- sides to this also because you dont have the inherently high damage output. There would also be a decrease in my str and dex, because wis and cha are almost more of a necessity, even to cast basic spells. Though this would help the party more, it would hurt me. Additionally, Saying im a cleric put the heal- Bit** stamp on my head, withholding spells so i can buff myself and heal myself would cause my other players to dislike me. I do like this potential, but the drawback and the needs of the groupwould be perhaps too great to reach full potential. Additionally, the buffs would make a cleric a formitable opponent in ranged, but the buff durations make the Divine-Archer more of a burst than a sustained damage dealer. And the prep needed to actually reach this potential would take, a while;bringing the durrations again into question. You cannot walk arround with these up, lasting at times for only a few rounds, this is not a very dependable archer. That is what i got from the Bow cleric, if you, or someone else, could further elaborate on this position It would be much apperciated :) . EDIT: I do use 3.0 rules, if that changes anything...
Lord Gwydion 03-16-06, 09:33 PM	I don't hang around on the CO boards, but I think many of the optimized Cleric builds take advantage of Extend Spell and Divine Metamagic (and if 3.0, there's the metamagic feat that makes spells last longer than with Extend...) so they can keep their buffs going all day (or close enough). If you want a consistant and ready at the spur of the moment damage dealer, Fighter or Fighter/Ranger multiclass would likely be best. If you want a decent damage dealer with lots of utility value (skills and class abilities), go straight Ranger (or maybe dip in for a few Fighter or Barbarian levels for some extra feats or a boost when you must enter melee). Yes, Clerics can make better archers than Fighters or Rangers thanks to buff spells. But if you're the only Cleric in the group, then your party won't like it much when the healer happens to be 200 feet away or more when everyone could use some healing or buffs of their own. And you might not be too happy when you've had to spend several rounds getting your own buffs up while your enemies have closed to melee range with you.
shadowfox628 03-18-06, 12:45 AM	Look, if it's a Ranger Vs. Fighter thing, I just can't help but say my opinion: Rangers aren't always archers. There's a reason in 3.5 that they choose to either specialize in melee or ranged combat. Fighters obviously get a boatload of feats. If you're doing it for the archery, go with Fighter. You can get a lot of feats, and specialize in archery, and you can take some melee-related feats for those just-in-case situations.
starfire311 03-18-06, 01:02 AM	And the first thing that'll get mentioned is that a cleric would make a better archer than a fighter or ranger. An elf would be the best race for it since you get free proficiency with a longbow and access to the elf domain (which gives point blank shot for free), or a human who has access to a diety that has a longbow as a favored weapon and the war domain. Someone did up a really nice thread showing how a cleric is only slightly behind the two in damage at lower level levels, but then passes them up around 8 or so. Plus he would always be useful to the party, what with full cleric casting abilities and all. This was true in 3.0 when bow and ammo enhancement bonuses stacked... in 3.5 Clerics are no longer the best archers... you basically have fighter, ranger, rogue, and scout for best archer builds.
Zherog 03-18-06, 11:23 AM	This was true in 3.0 when bow and ammo enhancement bonuses stacked... in 3.5 Clerics are no longer the best archers... you basically have fighter, ranger, rogue, and scout for best archer builds. You can still make a very powerful cleric archer in 3.5. I've done it, and I'm in a game with another. Divine metamagic is the cleric archer's friend. :)
R2-DS 03-18-06, 06:36 PM	Elf Ranger (Ranged Combat Style), 1 level of Wizard, Arcane archer. To my way of thinking, this provides you with the broadest skill set you're possibly going to get and be reasonably self sufficient. Your hit dice arent too shabby, your base attack wont really suffer that much with one wizard level, and your saves will be pretty decent too. Alternatively you could do the same build with a fighter if all you want is the "Boat load" of feats. Just a suggestion is all.......but i'd go with the ranger build myself.
starfire311 03-19-06, 07:50 PM	You can still make a very powerful cleric archer in 3.5. I've done it, and I'm in a game with another. Divine metamagic is the cleric archer's friend. :) You know what, you may be right, Cleric may still be viable, but it definatly is no longer head and shoulders above the rest. It was just sad that cleric was by far the best archer.
20goingon1232 03-19-06, 10:38 PM	Umm... No. The Cleric is by far the best archer in 3.5 because of Zen Archery (Complete Divine) which allows you to use Wis bonus instead of Dex bonus for ranged weapons. Then you throw on Divine Metamagic, which allows you to shoot as well as a Fighter, as well as +20 or more Strength (some ridiculous number from Bite of the Werebear and Righteous Might, which stack) by Round 2 in any fight. Then you back up your archery with the entire slew of Cleric spells, some of which has synergy bonuses with your archer feats (ranged attacks) like Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. There is nothing like a Cleric/Elemental Savant (Air) to really ruin the other guy's day...
Lord Gwydion 03-20-06, 12:00 AM	Umm... No. The Cleric is by far the best archer in 3.5 because of Zen Archery (Complete Divine) which allows you to use Wis bonus instead of Dex bonus for ranged weapons. Then you throw on Divine Metamagic, which allows you to shoot as well as a Fighter, as well as +20 or more Strength (some ridiculous number from Bite of the Werebear and Righteous Might, which stack) by Round 2 in any fight. Then you back up your archery with the entire slew of Cleric spells, some of which has synergy bonuses with your archer feats (ranged attacks) like Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. There is nothing like a Cleric/Elemental Savant (Air) to really ruin the other guy's day... What does getting +20 bonuses to Str have to do with being a better archer? They don't make mighty composite bows that strong, do they?
allenchan 03-20-06, 12:17 AM	What does getting +20 bonuses to Str have to do with being a better archer? They don't make mighty composite bows that strong, do they? There's no cap on composite bows.
Lord Gwydion 03-20-06, 12:52 AM	No, there's no cap, my bad. I was remembering the 3.0 caps. But would you really spend all that money on a +20 mighty composite longbow? One Dispel Magic and suddenly your mighty Cleric archer can't use his bow. Edit--Just double checked the Bite of the Werebear spell. It's a Level 9 Sorcerer/Wizard, Level 8 Druid spell. Sorry, Cleric Archers need not apply.
starfire311 03-20-06, 11:07 PM	Umm... No. The Cleric is by far the best archer in 3.5 because of Zen Archery (Complete Divine) which allows you to use Wis bonus instead of Dex bonus for ranged weapons. Then you throw on Divine Metamagic, which allows you to shoot as well as a Fighter, as well as +20 or more Strength (some ridiculous number from Bite of the Werebear and Righteous Might, which stack) by Round 2 in any fight. Then you back up your archery with the entire slew of Cleric spells, some of which has synergy bonuses with your archer feats (ranged attacks) like Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. There is nothing like a Cleric/Elemental Savant (Air) to really ruin the other guy's day... I am pretty sure bite of the werebear isn't a cleric spell, and anyway while you are spending 2 rounds to get to the equal of a fighter based archer, that fighter archer has already round 2 full round attacks dowing plenty of damage... and the fight may already be over. Heck one of my fav builds is a mounted archer using Improved mounted archery with a scout.... you are doing tons of damage. Scout at 17th level does an extra 5d6 per attack and gets a nice AC bonus. That is 4 attacks a round at a minimum +12/+12/+7/+2 doing 1D8+5D6 and you get your full attack every round, and remember There are other very nice archer builds as well, I think many of them are superior to the new cleric archer, in servering the party roll as an archer.... however if I am filling the party roll of healer, I don't have a problem with using a bow.
20goingon1232 03-21-06, 05:59 AM	I am pretty sure bite of the werebear isn't a cleric spell, and anyway while you are spending 2 rounds to get to the equal of a fighter based archer, that fighter archer has already round 2 full round attacks dowing plenty of damage... and the fight may already be over. Heck one of my fav builds is a mounted archer using Improved mounted archery with a scout.... you are doing tons of damage. Scout at 17th level does an extra 5d6 per attack and gets a nice AC bonus. That is 4 attacks a round at a minimum +12/+12/+7/+2 doing 1D8+5D6 and you get your full attack every round, and remember There are other very nice archer builds as well, I think many of them are superior to the new cleric archer, in servering the party roll as an archer.... however if I am filling the party roll of healer, I don't have a problem with using a bow. 1 round, actually. DM:Quicken Divine Power, full attack with the bow. The other bits are just gravy. And if I was fighting your Scout, I'd shoot the HORSE, not you. Then, I'll have fun destroying you with spells. Remember, it is not just a test of archery. It is the Cleric shooting as well as a Fighter with spells BACK-UP. Amongst other things, Clerics can disappear (Wind Walk or Ethereal Jaunt), heal and come back for round 2. Or he can just beat you to death with a Righteous Might and Harm combo.
starfire311 03-21-06, 09:37 AM	1 round, actually. DM:Quicken Divine Power, full attack with the bow. The other bits are just gravy. And if I was fighting your Scout, I'd shoot the HORSE, not you. Then, I'll have fun destroying you with spells. Remember, it is not just a test of archery. It is the Cleric shooting as well as a Fighter with spells BACK-UP. Amongst other things, Clerics can disappear (Wind Walk or Ethereal Jaunt), heal and come back for round 2. Or he can just beat you to death with a Righteous Might and Harm combo. So your tactic for a better cleric archer revolves around beating on someone while righteous mighted and harming them... doesn't seem like the best way to fill the archer role, and the fighter based archer gets to be effective in every fight of the day, clerics don't always have that luxury. Good luck hitting a mount, those ride checks(can get really high really fast, in my experience it is much easier to hit the rider than the mount) can be damn rough... and the only peson I have seen using a mounted scout build spent the feat on leadership to get a really good mount. Personally I still think the fighter archer is the best, but rogue, scout and cleric all have their strong points too, in that they can all fill another role in addition to being an archer.
TrajanCavalous 03-21-06, 03:46 PM	If your campaign allows a wide range of WoTC source material then the cleric archer will be way more effective than the fighter archer. Earlier posts are correct. Beyond about level 7 or 8 there is no comparison. The cleric, if built and equipped properly, will not be short on necessary feats, will not have to delay fighting to buff, will be an effective archer throughout the day, will still be able to provide a lot of healing and will be dealing out far more damage and hitting more reliably. It just takes research and knowing your spells and source material. If you are just using core, fighter is better as an archer but obviously comes up short in a comparison on versatility. With the Complete Books, Races of the Wild, the Spell Compendium and possibly some bits from Dragon the cleric is much better as an archer.
20goingon1232 03-21-06, 04:18 PM	So your tactic for a better cleric archer revolves around beating on someone while righteous mighted and harming them... doesn't seem like the best way to fill the archer role, and the fighter based archer gets to be effective in every fight of the day, clerics don't always have that luxury. Good luck hitting a mount, those ride checks(can get really high really fast, in my experience it is much easier to hit the rider than the mount) can be damn rough... and the only peson I have seen using a mounted scout build spent the feat on leadership to get a really good mount. Personally I still think the fighter archer is the best, but rogue, scout and cleric all have their strong points too, in that they can all fill another role in addition to being an archer. Ride checks are ONCE a round. A Cleric has Fighter BAB after DP. And if all else fails, guess what? Flame Strike is a total female canine. Ride that. That is the beauty of the Archer Cleric. He is not a one trick pony, AND he is as good as a Fighter in terms of pure Archery (2d6+7+whatever his base Str bonus+5, after RM, DP and GMW (I use the PHB RM here)). Turn into an Air Savant and you have the Archer's dream: 100ft perfect flight and heavy armour (high AC) 24/7 that cannot be dispelled.
Rivelstraz 03-21-06, 06:25 PM	What a surprise, cleric dominating everything and everyone. Did I read Divine Metamagic? :rolleyes:
camperdave 03-21-06, 07:04 PM	Where is this "elf domain" located. I can't seem to find it...
20goingon1232 03-21-06, 07:21 PM	Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. For Archer Cleric, best domains are Elf and War, assuming you don't want to go down the path of DM Persistent. If you do, then Elf and Planning.
allenchan 03-21-06, 07:29 PM	its also made non-campaign specific in the spell compendium