Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rosella 02-06-04, 09:14 PM	What is a good way to pass the defense of a Tower Shield as an archer? I have an archer who can't dent a paper box in melee and fully relies on archery. How do I attack a person that has a tower shield? or does it become a standoff? (If the tower shield person keeps hiding behind it)
adrj 02-06-04, 09:47 PM	What level character are we talking here? At higher levels I could see taking improved precise shot and preparing an action for when the target pops into sight for a second. Arcane Archer also has a couple of ways to get around the problem of tower shields, but there are a ton of restrictions on who can take that PC. Arrows of seeking and phase arrows would both bypass tower shields.
Rosella 02-06-04, 09:52 PM	currently around 6th - 7th, but any solution would be dandy. Improved precise shot doesn't solve the total cover problem and that's exactly what tower shield gives. The arcane archer only has a limited amount of arrows per day that she can use to bypass the protection. (even a 10th lvl AA can only bypass it twice a day!) and at that level two arrows most likely won't do the job.
primemover003 02-06-04, 10:08 PM	Firstly you shouldn't HAVE to do anything. You have your fellow adventurers, your teammates take out the Tower shield while you concentrate on easier targets. Adventuring is for lack of a better term a team sport. When thinking about tactical problems you have to think outside of the box, the box of just you. You should have at least three other people there to tackle problems. Secondly, diversify. You are a fighter yes? Even archers get into melee once in a while. Play to your strengths. I'm betting you have a high dex, go finesse weapons with high Crit threat ranges. Stay mobile. Potions of fly, Cape of the montebank (dimension door), be able to traverse the battle field and even a tower shield can be circumvented. If you can get behind the enemy skirmish line and present a threat opposite your front line tanks the shield will go towards the more dangerous foes... the tanks.
Rosella 02-06-04, 10:12 PM	offcourse I know that in normal adventuring this shouldn't be a real issue, but consider a challenge from Robin Hood to the duke for the hand of marianne; Isn't there a way that Robin could heroically decide the fight rather than having the fight drag on? (the cowardly duke wouldn't dare to come out of hiding)
McDerth 02-07-04, 05:42 AM	If it is ONLY you and them... just ready an action to shoot if they look around to look for you... and then keep 5 foot stepping around the shield. Either they look to see what you are doing, and get snipered, or they stay behind it and you manuver the shield out of the way. If there are others... Have someone else take out the shield guy.
Cyricist 02-07-04, 08:30 AM	Lob a few rocks OVER the shield (possibly shouting a warning to bluff him?).. This may annoy the wielder enough to lift the shield over his head, or perhaps he will turn around to look at the rock that landed behind him (whats that sound?).. then you strike! Of course, if it's a WOODEN towershield, you could go for special function arrows like fire arrows :D. Whatever you do, don't limit yourself to that bow. I play an elven archer who taunts his targets into position before actually shooting (it worked for me, depends on your DM I guess).
wdarkk 02-07-04, 09:40 AM	From Complete Warrior, Ranged Sunder: the solution to all your opponent-gear problems.
Scion of Coldshard 02-07-04, 10:13 AM	Does range sunder still take into account hardness? If so it sounds like this guy wont be able to break through it without help. So tell him to get ranged sunder, and this quiver. Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver. Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes. Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb. Get the adamantite, +5 arrows and have fun! It will also help his strength problem probably. ;)
DwelleroftheDeep 02-07-04, 10:42 AM	When the huns fought the romans who had tower shields they shot arc shots over the enemies heads. This forced the romans to raise shields upward to block the falling volly at which point the huns would shoot low and decimate the romans. Just an idea.
PhaedrusXY 02-07-04, 03:49 PM	Ranged Sunder + Power Shot. Power Shot is an ability that the Peerless Archer gets at 3rd level. It is basically Power Attack for ranged weapons. The Peerless Archer is a Prestige Class in the Silver Marches supplement for Forgotten Realms.
ksbsnowowl 02-07-04, 05:10 PM	The peerless archer also allows you to ignore increasingly more degrees of cover. By 5th level you ignore up to two degrees of cover. I don't recall off-hand when they get the first installment of that ability; probably 2nd level. Of course, the first level you can enter Peerless Archer is 8th, so I doubt this will help you directly with this problem.
Thorak 02-07-04, 09:13 PM	Having Improved Precise Shot means you ignore anything less than total cover or concealment. Ready an action, and advance. If he peeks out to see what you're doing, you attack him and get to ignore the shield. If he doesn't, you can circle around to the side. If he can't see you, he'd only know where you are by using Listen checks. Easily avoided with Move Silently. Or by throwing rocks/sticks to make 'accidental' noises to the side. Whether he moves the shield to where he thinks you are, or you silently move far enough around, or he peeks out to see where you are, you get to shoot him, and he doesn't get the nice cover bonus the shield normally grants. It'll be a slow fight, but either he'll try and charge you, or you'll win hands down. And if time's REALLY not an issue, wait him out. You can relax and stretch out, he has to keep himself behind the shield.
Aucturos 02-08-04, 12:44 AM	While you'd have to be extremely lucky in order for this alternative to work, it is possible... Ricochet it off a nearby object. Like a tree, a rock, a fellow soldier... It's an extremely hard and tricky shot, but if you're lucky, full concealment or not... The baddie gets hit from the side or even behind.
Impulse 02-08-04, 04:30 AM	Originally posted by Rosella offcourse I know that in normal adventuring this shouldn't be a real issue, but consider a challenge from Robin Hood to the duke for the hand of marianne; Isn't there a way that Robin could heroically decide the fight rather than having the fight drag on? (the cowardly duke wouldn't dare to come out of hiding) Ah, but Robin Hood was also a swordsman of repute.
Goreg Skullcrusher 02-13-04, 02:21 PM	Unfortunately, a lot of these methods don't work mechanically. (specifically, the one's involving walking around the shield) There is no facing in 3.5, and a Tower Shield provides total cover only in 3.5. Therefore, no matter what side you're on, and regardless if 10 archers are ateempting to pincushion him from all directions, he still has total cover against all of them. You're really left with few options against a target with total cover, but if you possess the Ranged Sunder feat, and have a few boosts to dmg with a bow(ranged sunder's damage is halved, before hardness I believe), you can actually damage the tower shield. (It only has a hardness of 5) But hey, that's what friends are for, no?
Tony Vargas 02-13-04, 03:35 PM	Being specialized as an archer doesn't mean that you have to solve /all/ your problems with a bow. You could just melee the guy. The Tower Shield is hardness 5, hp 20 - you could chop through it (eventually) even with a mere hand ax. Keep in mind that while he's under full cover, he can't get the AoO for your Sunder attempt. More likely, though, the Tower Shield guy is planning to close with you, and taking advantage of the simplistic total cover/no facing mechanics to do so without taking an arrow. It's how the rules work. (And, really, it's not that unreasonable) It also happens to be how the rules work that, after he's closed with you, and made his melee attack, you can step back 5' and loose a Full Attack of arrows into him before he can return to full cover. You could also do something a little unsporting. The tower shield is a big, easy, wooden target. Throw a flask of alchemist fire on it, or put some flaming arrows into it. It might take a little while to burn, but he'd have to lose the total cover for a bit to put it out - the obvious way would be by planting it face down on the ground to smother the flames...
Rundor The Mighty 02-15-04, 06:53 PM	How as an archer to bring the pain to high ac fighter: Ranged sunder (+powershot if u want) Bracers of archery Improved rapid shot (ouch, i got 1 extra attack over the fighter at no penalty) 2 levels of order of the bow (cool now I can fire an arrow right in your face point blank) Its not too hard, with an extra attack at no penalty, point blank shots bonuses, the bracers good attack bonus and little damage bonus, easy first strike capability, and once he gets close not having many problems (2 ootbi) you should be able to fight him toe to toe. Don't do what most people do, fighting twf once they get close really screws you, launch some arrows right in his face since its what your good at. I've annoyed many of our fighters when we had playful pvp with this combo. Going peerless archer and putting pure elem on your bow if u can works too since you can make your own +1-5 arrows, nothing like a sonic, flaming, shocking, acidic bow with +5 arrows nocked to give a fighter some trouble, cuz his weapon is at best a +5 total while all your bonuses can be +9. Cheap but oh so fun and effective.
Malben 02-15-04, 07:16 PM	Use adamantine arrows and aim for the fighter with those. They bypass hardness, and if you're behind cover and an attack beats your AC, the cover is what takes damage instead of you. It'll take a few shots, but you'll eventually render his tower shield useless.
Silimaure 02-15-04, 08:55 PM	Alchemist's Fire always works.
Finwe 02-15-04, 09:04 PM	If you have teh ranged sunder feat and a couple of adamantine arrows and the ranged sunder feat, you should be able to sunder it. If worst comes to worst, you can always have an adamantine greatsword that you can hulk out when you absolutely need it.
Rosella 02-16-04, 10:51 AM	I'm closely following the results of the question, since I really find that I have a problem there; It might be important to note that this is core only, ranged sunder is therefore not an option. (I'm hearing it all the time, i thought i should clarify on this) melee is no option whatsoever, i'm totally geared towards mounted archery. (see link for Ilene in signature) flame arrows are an idea, but does flame enhancement or blame burst burn a shield too? can't find it in the description...
Malben 02-16-04, 07:34 PM	Originally posted by Rosella I'm closely following the results of the question, since I really find that I have a problem there; It might be important to note that this is core only, ranged sunder is therefore not an option. (I'm hearing it all the time, i thought i should clarify on this) melee is no option whatsoever, i'm totally geared towards mounted archery. (see link for Ilene in signature) flame arrows are an idea, but does flame enhancement or blame burst burn a shield too? can't find it in the description... It's arguable that you don't need to have any sort of ranged sunder ability for this. If you aim for something that is behind cover, and you would otherwise normally hit that thing . . . you hit the cover instead. If the cover happens to be, say, another creature, you hit the creature. So get some adamantine arrows, or something with a sonic energy enhancement. Fire at the fellow as normal. Your attacks will hit the tower shield, and damage it. I wouldn't bother with flaming weaponry, or with flaming burst. Energy damage is not good against objects unless it's sonic. What happens is that the energy damage is halved, and put up against the object's hardness, and THEN applied to its hit points. Sonic damage is not subject to this mechanic, and will snap right through most solid substances. So a +1 sonic adamantine arrow, fired at a tower shield user who is employing the shield as cover, will deal 1d8+1+str+weapon_spec+etc. plus 1d6 sonic damage, which will go straight through the shield's hardness and damage its hit points. The average damage, assuming Str 10, no specialization, and no miscellaneous bonuses, is 9.0 (5.5 physical, 3.5 sonic). The hitpoints of a tower shield equal 20. So you'll need to make four attacks to blast it apart this way.
wdarkk 02-16-04, 09:09 PM	Uh, 3. 20/9 is 2.something.
Malben 02-16-04, 10:28 PM	Originally posted by wdarkk Uh, 3. 20/9 is 2.something. Ah, so you do. I think I was thinking about the arrows without sonic damage added, and forgot to edit.
Edymnion 02-16-04, 11:03 PM	I don't really see the problem. So, you can't hit the guy hiding behind a tower shield. He can't hit you either. He has to come out from behind it to do anything to you. Just Hold Action until part of him pokes out from behind the shield, then pincushion it. And don't forget to strafe. Keep moving around, force him to keep changing his facing so he can't back away from you. Long as you keep him pinned down, you can have one of your teammates go in for the hand to hand stuff. Remember, it isn't about who gets the kill, its about the fight as a whole.
Tehril 02-16-04, 11:56 PM	Well... you could destroy the tower shield first... Adamantium arrows would damage it quite nicely...(ranged sunder :D) Befriending a rust monster would also work... Or befriend a mage to craft arrows that cast rusting grasp or some such on any metal target they strike (ie, a shield...piece of armor...) Be warned...these probably would be expensive or have serious restraints...
Harmor 02-17-04, 05:51 AM	If you have a druid friend have him cast Summon Swarm (level 2) or Warp Wood (the Tower Shield user would get a Will save), but the 46 lb. shield is mostly made of wood so Warp Wood would work against it :-) (3.5 PHB 300). Alchemist's fire is good...keeps your at range without closing for combat, which is probably what the melee tower shield user wants... Keep him at bay with Entangle. Any touch spells still affect him (they ignore armor). Arcane Archer has a high level ability that ignores armor... Cast Silent Image and make him think some of your friends are flanking him...he'll turn and attempt to melee them and then you can attack. Cast Web then burn the web. Magic Missle... Run away and catch him when he's sleeping... Use Rope and try to lasso him (DM call).
Tony Vargas 02-17-04, 05:48 PM	Originally posted by Rosella melee is no option whatsoever, i'm totally geared towards mounted archery. (see link for Ilene in signature) I followed the link, and note that you have a GREATSWORD, you can cast Shield, and you're riding a warhorse (it can kick people while you hack at them with the sword). You are not exactly melee-innept. I can see why the guy's behind a Tower Shield. On foot, he could never catch you, and you could just stay at range and feather him at will. Obviously, he's either a lot tougher than you, and hoping you'll come within reach, or just praying you'll go away and leave him alone. If he is too tough for you to melee, you may want to chalk this one up to experience, be thankful you have a horse, and ride away. (If you want to be mean, you can just canter back a ways, and ready an arrow in case he finally shows himself - it's not like he has any chance of closing successfully, while trundling along under full cover). Otherwise, you can just ride up there and chop him to bits while protected by your Shield spell (which unlike his Tower Shield, doesn't give you a -2 to hit, and allows you to use a greatsword at the same time) - either with or without your mount also stomping on him. If you're a total bow addict, and you don't mind abusing the rules slightly, you could do the following: Ride up to him, one move at a time, readying to shoot if he comes out from behind the shield, until you've closed the distance. Use Ride to have your horse start trying to kick in the Tower Shield. If he just cowers behind it, it will break through eventually. If, as seems most likely, he's just waiting for you to get within melee range, he'll either come out from behind the shield and attack you as soon as you get within a move of him, or once you've started attacking in melee. Once he makes his attack, he's exposed until his next initiative. You step back 5' out of his reach (or, rather, your mount does, after kicking him again for good measure, with a simple ride check from you), and Full Attack with your bow. Repeat as long as he's willing to do it. If he goes after your horse, you have Mounted Combat to help protect it, and, he's just got that many more hps he has to dish out before killing you. If he doesn't, you retain your mobility advantage, and can simply Withdraw and ride away if the fight doesn't go the way you'd like.
mercurial67 02-17-04, 05:57 PM	Originally posted by Goreg Skullcrusher There is no facing in 3.5, and a Tower Shield provides total cover only in 3.5. Therefore, no matter what side you're on, and regardless if 10 archers are ateempting to pincushion him from all directions, he still has total cover against all of them.There is no facing for characters. Cover on the other hand is based on an object blocking from a specific direction. If you are using the tower shield as cover, you set it down and it provides cover from a specific direction. It is not part of the character's AC at this point, it has become a fixed cover. If you are holding it and using if for AC, you get +4 no matter the direction the attack is coming from.
BlaineTog 02-17-04, 06:40 PM	I was looking at the link to your character and I saw something that I like a lot: Fighter 4, Sorcerer 1. You are a mere 4 sorcerer levels away from becoming the King of all things Sunder (and it's core, too). For your second 2nd level spell, take Shatter. Acid arrow or Scorching Ray are nice, but seriously: Shatter is the best (ie most powerful) 2nd level spell. It's arguabley broken. But we don't care about that, now do we? :devil: :D Shatter will solve all of your worldy problems. For one thing, it will shatter that nasty full cover that the enemy has. Against a tower shield, you'll have to wait until 5th level to destroy it (which is why I suggets taking it second), but c'est la vie. You'll be able to destroy Full Plat too, so no worries. Alternatelly, you could pick up a bow with the following enhancement (which is also a flat increase the price): Bow of Shatter To most people, this weapon acts like a +1 Magic Mighty +3 Darkwood Composite Longbow. But in the hands of a Fighter, it can be used with greater effect. Once per day, it can cast shatter as the spell (cast as if by a 5th level sorcerer, DC 13) if a Command word is spoken. Faint evocation; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, shatter; Price 7,870 gp; Cost 4,350 gp + 282 XP; Weight: 1.5 lbs. Add 5,040 gp for each additional use of shatter per day (and therefore an additional 2,520 gp + 202 XP if you want to make it yourself). It would cost 5,040 gp to upgrade your current bow to this, btw. Ciao.
Edymnion 02-17-04, 07:57 PM	Good point. Get a magic bow that imparts acid damage to its ammunition, then use Adm arrow heads. Don't fire at the character, fire directly at the shield. After all, while it's providing cover, its an unattended object, you don't even need to make a Sunder attempt, just damage it the same way you would shooting a door.
Goreg Skullcrusher 02-18-04, 10:24 AM	There is no facing for characters. Cover on the other hand is based on an object blocking from a specific direction. If you are using the tower shield as cover, you set it down and it provides cover from a specific direction. It is not part of the character's AC at this point, it has become a fixed cover. If you are holding it and using if for AC, you get +4 no matter the direction the attack is coming from. You're applying a 3.0 concept to a 3.5 rule. There is no +4. There is no +20. No plusses. Just total cover. And as is per the rules for total cover, you can't target them. (This rule is superceded for spellcasters however) Total cover means you have two direct combat options. Attack the shield, or go into melee and figure something out. Edymnion is onto something though. Acid damage would quickly eat away that Tower Shield, what with its hardness bypassing ability. I would fathom a few vials of the stuff would be a cheaper, though less versatile approach.
WCrawford 02-18-04, 10:39 AM	I think a great deal of people are forgetting that peircing damage will probably not do any damage to a tower shield (RPHB p165). Adding an Acid quality to the bow or arrows would be very effective.
BlaineTog 02-18-04, 10:43 AM	Originally posted by Goreg Skullcrusher You're applying a 3.0 concept to a 3.5 rule. There is no +4.I beg to differ. When holding a Tower Shield upright (like any other shield), you recieve a +4 Shield bonus to your AC.
Goreg Skullcrusher 02-18-04, 11:29 AM	I beg to differ. When holding a Tower Shield upright (like any other shield), you recieve a +4 Shield bonus to your AC. Er, I was unclear. By "there are no plusses", I meant "no plusses gained from taking full cover". That was a 3.0 rule. Yes, you do receive the trivial +4 shield bonus to AC -- I can't think of one example where you would need it while taking full cover -- but I digress, you are correct.
Edymnion 02-18-04, 11:36 AM	Originally posted by Goreg Skullcrusher Edymnion is onto something though. Acid damage would quickly eat away that Tower Shield, what with its hardness bypassing ability. I would fathom a few vials of the stuff would be a cheaper, though less versatile approach. Alchemist's Fire would be a good option as well. Throw a vile or two directly at the shield and watch it go up in flames. May not destroy the shield as quickly as Acid would, but I at least would rule that you could not pick the shield back up without taking the fire damage yourself. Drench it in Alchemists Fire, then walk around it and start shooting the guy. Very unlikely that they would intentionally shove their arm in a roaring fire in order to reposition that shield.
Xavim 02-18-04, 08:54 PM	Have the horse charge up and grapple the shield guy flat (ie trample him to hell) once the guy is busy trying to grapple a freaking horse you, being the ever so cool rider you are, sit on the back of your horse and shoot him silly.
VirgilCaine 02-18-04, 09:27 PM	Ricochet it off a nearby object. Like a tree, a rock, a fellow soldier... It's an extremely hard and tricky shot, but if you're lucky, full concealment or not... The baddie gets hit from the side or even behind. D20 Modern beat you to it. Not that I'd allow this feat in any of my D20 Modern Campaigns, but I digress... Skip Shot Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot. Benefit: If the character has a solid, relatively smooth surface on which to skip a bullet (such as a street or a concrete wall), and a target within 10 feet of that surface, the character may ignore cover between the character and the target. However, the character receives a –2 penalty on his or her attack roll, and the character’s attack deals –1 die of damage. Special: The surface doesn’t have to be perfectly smooth and level; a brick wall or an asphalt road can be used. The target can have no more than nine-tenths cover for A character to attempt a skip shot.
Thaden 02-19-04, 12:46 PM	Tower Shields are wood. Sunder them with Alchemists fire. Your high dex as an archer should give you synergy anuff to sling, or just throw them. None the less, Alchemists fire will destroy non-magical tower shields with ease. Then, you comense fire without needing to get into his melee range.
Rosella 02-22-04, 06:39 PM	how would alchemist's fire work with a tower shield exactly? (I can't find it in the rules) Also, I looked for an acid bow, but it's not available in the enhancement list. I'm not looking to enhance my arrows, just my bow and I would like to know how to achieve the capability of destroying a shield from a distance. (sunder isn't allowed in core 3.5, i looked it up)
Edymnion 02-22-04, 08:59 PM	Originally posted by Rosella Also, I looked for an acid bow, but it's not available in the enhancement list. I'm not looking to enhance my arrows, just my bow and I would like to know how to achieve the capability of destroying a shield from a distance. (sunder isn't allowed in core 3.5, i looked it up) No, you can't do a Ranged Sunder under core 3.5, but you don't have to. Sunder is for when you are attacking a weapon being currently weilded by another person. To use a Tower Shield for cover, they have to set it down and prop it up. When they do this, it ceases to be a part of their equipment and becomes a terrain feature. You don't make Sunder attempts on terrain, you just do straight damage to it because there is no one weilding it trying to get it out of your way. Shooting at a tower shield thats being used for cover is no differant from shooting at a door on it's hinges. Go to town on it.
WCrawford 02-23-04, 01:21 AM	Originally posted by Edymnion No, you can't do a Ranged Sunder under core 3.5, but you don't have to. Sunder is for when you are attacking a weapon being currently weilded by another person. To use a Tower Shield for cover, they have to set it down and prop it up. When they do this, it ceases to be a part of their equipment and becomes a terrain feature. Where in the rules is it stated that a tower shield, when used for total cover, is no longer wielded? I can't find it anywhere. Now if you have information about the uses of similar types of shields used in the middle ages, you are more than welcome to say "that is the way it works in my campaign." The exact mechanic of how the tower shield is not described, as such, making the assumption that the tower shield leaves the users possession is inconsistant with other equipment. When there are exceptions to how something works, it is clearly stated in the rules.
TheGogmagog 02-23-04, 01:59 AM	The ready action for when the target comes out of hiding seems like the thing to do. I don't think it's a full round action to use the tower shield for full cover though, which would mean they could still move away without coming out. And while I agree that having some melee skill is a good idea, It doesn't resolve the issue that the person has full cover. Since the 3.5 tower shield is omni-directional. I am no expert on 3.5 tower shields but you all need to read the description of tower shield before you start suggesting 5' steps and banking shots. That leaves you with sunder (with elemental is helpfull) as your next best option in a standoff. You had mentioned Arcane Archer, which takes at least one level of a casting class. Buy some scrolls or wands for situations such as this. Even though he has full cover, he can still be targeted with spells since he is wielding the shield, which does not have full cover. What spells to use could go for a variety of effects, but if they are wielding a tower shield they are a figter (low will) or took the tower shield proficiency. Warp wood would work, but I would play on thier likely low will first.
Rosella 02-23-04, 02:19 AM	I would prefer a bow enhancement to deal with this (like the sonic spell, but I wouldn't know how to implement that on the bow) I am indeed currently resorting to scrolls and potions for this, altough I haven't found a spell yet that can solve this problem 100%. (and i'm not sure the scrolls are even working etc.) The opponent is a high wis cleric, and therefore has a very high will save. Besides that, warp wood is a druidic spell only, which prevents me as a sorcerer from using it. (I can only use arcane scrolls) I would prever destroying the shield by attacking, and using either acid or alchemist's fire seems a good idea (intuitively atleast) but I can't find the rules for it on how it would affect the shield.
Xavim 02-23-04, 07:24 AM	Awe... no one liked my grappling horse idea... I thought the imagery was great. Plus it would solve your problem right quick
TheGogmagog 02-23-04, 09:15 AM	Using Acid or Alchemist fire to sunder would just use the sunder rules PH158. Unfortunatly the Acid and Alchemist fire does not bypass Hardness PH165. It is DM's option to have a certain type of attack bypass hardness, but wooden shields are treated, and I wouldn't rule them specially suseptable to fire.
Goreg Skullcrusher 02-23-04, 01:34 PM	Using Acid or Alchemist fire to sunder would just use the sunder rules PH158. Unfortunatly the Acid and Alchemist fire does not bypass Hardness PH165. It is DM's option to have a certain type of attack bypass hardness, but wooden shields are treated, and I wouldn't rule them specially suseptable to fire. In the errata, it was clarified that Acid does indeed bypass hardness. And like you mentioned, it's not unreasonable for the DM to decide that a wooden shield is succeptable to fire.
angry_keebler 02-23-04, 08:37 PM	You must more fully describe the situation. In a 5 foot wide, 5 foot tall corridor, there's jack all you can do to the guy with the tower shield. In an open, featureless expanse of grasslands, you have different options available. However, in almost all circumstances, I would recommend retreat. The guy behind the shield is a cleric. He'll be using that free hand of his to call down godly magic on your pathetic a ss. Even if you have a lenient DM who rules that alchemists fire has some special effect on the tower shield, the odds are that the cleric will be able to defeat you handily. Between conveniently memorized douse spells, healing, and excellent buffs, the cleric is probably unbeatable in a one on one grudge match. You have, I'm presuming, a move speed of 30, or your horse with you. This guy with the tower shield is probably a bit slower than you. In doors, use your mobility to dodge and evade back to the outside. Outside, use your mobility to escape the situation. If you must fight, find cover and concealment. Shadow your target from a discreet distance, well beyond the range of his spells. If he camps outside, kill him in his sleep. If he stops to eat some food, attack him when he is unaware. If he poops (assuming your DM realizes that most people need to poop eventually, unlike most heroic adventurers, who only take a p iss if it puts out an unholy flame) , give him an arrow up the ol poop shoot. Your ability to fight from range, with a longbow, is excellent. You can fight from 1100 feet away. Granted, most of your shots will miss, but you can still theoretically hit. If you pick up a bow with a distance enchantment, and the Far Shot feat, you can fight at even further distances.
SmoothB 02-25-04, 05:27 AM	First of all, get the latest issue of Dragon. Skip Williams covers this issue EXTENSIVELY on how tower shields work. In other words, tower sheilds are now nerfed. Next. If it is the total cover problem, just use bloodseeking arrows/bow. Read the Complete Warrior, it tells you all about it.
Rosella 02-25-04, 05:47 AM	it's a 300 feet round arena :) again; this is CORE! (obviously can't stress this enough) for those who follow the link in my sig for a complete readout of my character; she's getting distance enhancement on the next level. and being mounted on a pegasus is offcourse very nice :D I've got 3 solutions right now (I'm in a creative mood) but I don't know how effective they really are; 1 - Adamantine arrows. I believe that it will take an average of 8 arrows to shoot down a shield. 2 - Alchemist's fire - 10 flasks might do it, but I dont' know how effective they are 3 - Potions of Warp wood (I'm intending to throw them at the shield) I'm hoping that 3 works without the cleric having his will save, as it's against his tower shield. and i'm not targeting him but an object. EDIT; could anyone give the short version on how that tower shield works according to skip williams? (I believe he's like the ultimate on rulings?)
Gothic_Demon 02-25-04, 06:10 AM	From the SRD: To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).If you don't use figures and battlemats then the cover must be in a line between you and the target. I think this quote shows you can walk around a tower shield. Anyway, if you have a flying pegasus cohort, flank the cleric by getting the pegasus to fly over him and attack from behind. As soon as he begins combat with the pegasus he either drops his shield or uses it, either way breaking the line of cover. Otherwise, ride the pegasus and fly around him, using the movement of the pegasus to break the line of cover and shoot him.
SmoothB 02-25-04, 02:12 PM	Gothic, sorry. You are wrong. That quote applies to cases of cover, not total cover. They are two completely seperate things.
angry_keebler 02-25-04, 04:14 PM	Well, that makes things a bit different. It sounds like this is some sort of gladiatorial/honor fight, and you are unlikely to be killed. Okay. It seems that this isn't a fight to the finish. If it is, i HIGHLY recommend you escape. You said that the enemy would be around level 6. At level six, you have less to worry about. So, I'll give the best/worse case scenarios. I'm assuming you both start at opposite ends of the arena, but say about 20 or 30 feet away from the wall, at some designated starting point. Best Case Scenario. You(from the link) Vs. A Level 6 cleric. Round 1. The cleric has no buffs at all activated, and is slightly dim. You: win Initiative. Using your pegasus, you attempt to manuever behind your target, and get 1 shot. Miss. Cleric: Casts shatter. Destroys your bow. Round 2. You: dismount and close for the attack with your Great Sword. You hit, and deal 9 damage. The cleric has 31 hp remaining. Cleric: Casts defensively. Inflict Serious Wounds. You take 18. You have 16 hp left Round 3. You: 5ft step back, drink healing potion for the full 9hp recovery. Back to 25 hp. Cleric. 5ft step towards you. Casts defensively. Summons a Celestial Dire Badger immediately behind you. It hits with both claw attacks, and misses with the bite. 10 damage, you are at 15. You are flanked. Round 4. You. Hit the cleric with your sword. You deal 15 damage. Cleric is at 16. Cleric. Defensively casts inflict Serious Wounds. You take 18. The fight is over. If it is a fight to the death, the badger coup de grace. You see a little you angel floating above you. Would you like to load from your last save? Worst Case Scenario. The cleric is level 7, and is played intelligently. The evening before the fight, the cleric uses divination and augry to get a better idea of how to fight you. The cleric enters combat with Protection from Good, Entropic Shield, Deathwatch, Shield of Faith, Divine Favor, Endurance, Aid, Endure Elements (Fire). This cleric is evil, and can cast spells with an evil descriptor. Round 1. You: win Initiative. Using your pegasus, you attempt to manuever behind your target, and get 1 shot. Miss due to 20% miss chance on entropic shield. Cleric: Casts shatter. Destroys your bow. Round 2. You: dismount and close for the attack with your Great Sword. You miss. Cleric: Casts defensively. Bestow Curse. You have a 50% chance to take any action. Round 3. You: Can take no action. Cleric. Inflict Critical Wounds. You take 20 damage. You are down to 14 Round 4. You: Get to take an action. You 5ft step, and drink a potion. You get 5 hp. You are back to 19. Cleric. 5ft steps toward you. Defensively casts Inflict Critical Wounds. You take 30 damage. You die You see. Unless you get close, you can't really hope to out manuver his shield. Once you are close, he destroys your bow, and then you. Even if you had your mount attack, he would simply Bestow Curse: 50% chance to take action, and then, Bestow Curse: Phobia of Pegasus. Then, in round three he casts Divine power, and kills your pegasus with his 2 attacks each round. This is an unwinnable fight for your character. You are a little weak as a fighter, and your NG alignment probably prevents you from using good strategies(cheating.) Again, if this is an aviodable fight, do so. You aren't going to win unless your DM plays the stereotypical Nancy Girl cleric. Even then, you might lose. *edit* All combat rolls were made by myself and another player. They are not skewed or unfair. A lucky roll on either side could change things, but even if you get a couple of natural 20s, you aren't going to win this through honorable tactics.
jasper 02-26-04, 01:58 PM	Shield, Tower: This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else. When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield’s encumbrance. Shield tower 30 gp +4 * to ac +2 max dex -10 armor check penalty 50% arcane failure chance *A tower shield can grand you cover Total Cover: If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover. Varying Degrees of Cover: In some cases, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Hide checks. You could ready your action to plug the coward if he attacks any one. You could try to flank him so he either has to move his total cover to cover you while opening up to others. You could ready your action to plug the coward if lhe ooks around the shield. I would give the coward nine tenths cover. Skull crusher mentions 10 archers all around can not hit him :laugh: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: So a= archer, s= shield, c= coward, d=dragon your comment means C gets total cover every where even if .D A..SC Or A SC D Or A SC .D Or A .SC ..D Or A .SC D Or A .SD So the coward would still have total cover after the dragon has eaten him.
Derren S. 02-26-04, 02:09 PM	Originally posted by jasper Skull crusher mentions 10 archers all around can not hit him :laugh: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: But so are the rules. You never have to specify in which direction you set the tower shield. That was 3.0, in 3.5 you use it to get total cover from every direction.
Deekin 02-26-04, 10:19 PM	In the latest dragon it says that you have to choose a side of your square(not a corner) to get total cover from a tower shield. Ahooting from a coner offers partial cover(+4 AC +2 Ref). If It passes through a side of the space the shield does not block, no cover or shield bonus. It also takes a standard action to claim total cover.
Derren S. 02-27-04, 01:15 AM	Originally posted by Deekin In the latest dragon it says that you have to choose a side of your square(not a corner) to get total cover from a tower shield. Ahooting from a coner offers partial cover(+4 AC +2 Ref). If It passes through a side of the space the shield does not block, no cover or shield bonus. It also takes a standard action to claim total cover. What someone writes in a dragon magazine doesn't interest me unless they write it in the FAQ or errata.
SmoothB 02-27-04, 03:09 AM	It will appear in the FAQ, in fact it is probably already there. That is where all of the 'Sage's Advice' columns go.
Derren S. 02-27-04, 07:41 AM	No, it isn't in the 3.5 FAQ and I don't think it will be added soon if at all. And as long it is only in the dragon magazine I consider it a house rule. (Especially if its from the sage, he has a history of contradicting the rules)
jasper 02-27-04, 09:04 AM	As dm when the player wants the rules to work like you suggest Derren i would tell him no. If was being real mean I would tell him no and laugh. If I was being icky nasty I would tell him yes. And remember want is good for the player is great for the monster because their are more monsters. Remember the dm is there to catch the rules flaws. Of course I have played in one game were the players according to them ruled that a first edition monk took NO damage on a successful save.
Derren S. 02-27-04, 09:09 AM	Originally posted by jasper As dm when the player wants the rules to work like you suggest Derren i would tell him no. I don't see whats wrong with the current Tower Shield ruling. Sure it can be abused (Andamatin tower shield) but that is rare in in the game I were in there were no problems with it. Actually I was the one with the shield and it was destroyed after the second attack. Considering the attack penalty you have its imo balanced.
Goreg Skullcrusher 02-27-04, 09:53 AM	I don't see whats wrong with the current Tower Shield ruling. Sure it can be abused (Andamatin tower shield) but that is rare in in the game I were in there were no problems with it. Actually, even that's not possible. An adamantine object must have a metal portion to it. A tower shield is wooden. Jasper, you're entitled to play as you like, but there's definately nothing "wrong" with the rules. The Tower Shield works exactly as written. And IMO, there's nothing unbalancing about it.
SmoothB 02-27-04, 02:48 PM	It will be added into the FAQ very soon. Have no doubt about it, as ALL of those columns made by Skip 'The Sage' are always put into the faq. The only reason this is not immediate is because the folks at Dragon need some 'time exclusivity' in order to make some money off of having the column in the printed magazine.
Tony Vargas 02-27-04, 02:55 PM	Originally posted by Deekin If It passes through a side of the space the shield does not block, no cover or shield bonus. Now that's just silly - what's the point of the shield bonus if it doesn't act like a normal shield bonus?
Derren S. 02-27-04, 03:11 PM	Originally posted by SmoothB It will be added into the FAQ very soon. Have no doubt about it, as ALL of those columns made by Skip 'The Sage' are always put into the faq. The only reason this is not immediate is because the folks at Dragon need some 'time exclusivity' in order to make some money off of having the column in the printed magazine. When all of the Sage Rulings are added to the FAQ why is it still so small? For example the T&B FAQ still doesn't include the Dragon Disciple enlargement rulings from the Sage so don't count on it that it will be added.
Rosella 03-03-04, 06:58 AM	The result of this thread: The Archer vs. the Tower Shield (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=1&postid=2720354#post2720354) I hereby want to thank all those who helped me out! (I need an average of 4 hits for destroying a normal tower shield which is quite efficient)