Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wizardsrepose 09-14-04, 01:18 PM	Is there any way to avoide receiving an attack of opp. when firing a ranged weapon from a threatened square? I have a ranger that keeps getting flanked by everything. He is a ranged fighter so this is not making his battles go very well. My biggest gripe about it is that casters may cast in a threatened square by passing a concentration check but rangers have no such check for firing a bow. Please if someone out there knows a loop hole to this rule let me know. Thanks.
jnrhayz 09-14-04, 01:29 PM	The only thing I know of is the 2nd level of the order of the bow initiate prestige class has an ability that allows you to fire while being flanked. ***edit*** Not just flanked but any one in a threatened square next to you.
JabberWocky 09-14-04, 02:09 PM	None that I know of, and I'm not really familiar with the Order of the Bow Initiate PrC. All I know is, don't get flanked. If enemies run at you, don't pepper them with full attacks, run away a bit and then fire when you're safe.
simpkin 09-14-04, 02:22 PM	Normally I would say take a 5ft step and move out of the threatened square, however if you are flanked that is difficult to do since there isn't a 5ft square that isn't occupied. The biggest draw back to ranged weapons is being flanked, and apparently your enemies are smart enough to use it, my suggestion would be to have a back up weapon for such situations and try to 5ft step your way away from them before using the bow again.
wizardsrepose 09-14-04, 03:11 PM	Thanks all. I knew about the prestige class Order of the bow init. but refuse to take it because first it does not fit my character's life and second because i would only be taking it for that one feat. Good call though. I guess i will have to take Weapon finnesse so i can actually hit something with my melee attacks. Valerin only has a 10 strength so he is not real good at anything but archery. Thanks again. If anyone else thinks of something please let me know. If it is posted before sunday i will be able to change my feat but for now i guess i am going with Finesse.
JabberWocky 09-14-04, 03:16 PM	The best thing to remember is that rangers and fighters tend to ALSO be, y'know, fighter types. You can still use melee weapons, after all. An archer-fighter in one of my games remembered this roundabout 12th level after a troll sundered his bow and beat the crap out of him, since he carried a masterwork dagger "just in case." I, on the other hand, carry a +2 longsword of speed.
jnrhayz 09-14-04, 03:43 PM	I am not sure what level you are, but you could ask the DM to allow that ability to be a feat. He should probably put a level restrictment on it, but not further than what you could get with OotBI, which I think is level 7 about. Good Luck.
wizardsrepose 09-14-04, 03:53 PM	Already asked but i play with a bunch of whining babies so he said no. I can not really blame him. If he let that happen for me he would get bombarded with requests. I even proposed that he let it be a check like casting defensively. Rather than a concentration check it be a reflex save dc 15 +1 for each additional arrow fired in the round. If the check is made all shots are fired and no AoOs are provoked. If not he looses his shots and he gets attacked. He liked it but because of the players we have in our group he can not let it happen. I think WoTC should come up with a general feat like combat casting for Archers. If wizards can hit you with a hold person spell while threatened I think a trained archer should have some chance of also avoiding being hit in the same circumstance.
JabberWocky 09-14-04, 04:29 PM	Do archers actually lose the shot if they get whacked, or just take damage?
Arrowhen 09-14-04, 04:30 PM	...I think a trained archer should have some chance of also avoiding being hit in the same circumstance. Well you do get to wear armor, you have more hit points and probably a higher Dex than the wizard and even if you do get hit at least your arrow won't fizzle out. If you're that worried about getting hit, stand behind the dwarf. ;)
zerotkatama 09-14-04, 06:58 PM	THere is a feat for that, but it's Epic. Combat Archery. The reason why is, well... Ranged weapons are supposed to be used AT RANGE, Yanno? Sorry, I'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence, just pointing out a bit of common sense.
primemover003 09-14-04, 08:09 PM	The correct response is the Tumble skill. DC 17 for two opponents, tumble 15 feet away and use a standard action to attack (or Manyshot if you have it). The next option you have is having a meat shield (read: Bodyguard). Don't you have any set formations in combat? Or does your party run about the battlefield willy-nilly? That little tactical blunder has hurt the PC's IMC many, MANY times. Divide and conquer, or a Kill box of Ogres is extremely deadly!
Egres 09-14-04, 08:44 PM	Or you can take an exotic ranged weapon and take a level in the Exotic Weapon Master PrC. One of its trick, Close Quarters Ranged Combat, allows you to fire in melee without provoking AoO.
krichaiushii 09-14-04, 09:22 PM	As magic items become more available - especially if they are easily purchased or a party caster crafts them - go for items that help with mobility. Boots of Levitation or a Cloak of the Bat are just two examples of items that can get you out of range of many melee attackers - just move up and out of range. Another method might be to take a few levels of sorcerer (or wizard) for no other reason than to improve your archery, mobility, and defense - take spells such as True Strike, Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Jump (all 1st level) and Levitate and Cat's Grace (2d level). Doing this may force arcane checks, but that can be minimized through use of magical defenses (Bracers of Armor, Amulet of Natural Armor, Rings of Protection, certain other armors) and your PC's presumably high dexterity. There are likely feats available that lower arcane failure chances, so try for those, too. A similar plan might be to take levels in rogue for Tumble, Escape Artist, and Use Magic Device - the first two for improved mobility, and the latter for casting spells (via wands) of the spells mentioned above. Or, use stealth to get into a ranged ambush position BEFORE the battle begins and unleash your feathered doom at liesure. A ranger can (theoretically) pull this latter stunt, as well. Feats to consider might be Quickdraw and Improved Initiative - the former for when you are surrounded, and the latter to help prevent being surrounded. Just some ideas.
wizardsrepose 09-15-04, 12:06 AM	Really they are all good ideas. Problem is when this campaign started i assumed i would be adventuring with a group. So i made an archer intended on being ranged support. Well since the start the PCs have all been traveling alone including my archer Vale. Well this presents a problem for me with most of my feats and stats worked for ranged combat. I have no meat shield to hide behind. Had i known that in the beginning i would have taken 2 weapon fighting and put my best stat in strength rather than a 10. So in combat the dm always starts my foes at around 30 feet away. This does not work out well when there are 5 of them and only one of me. Even if they are lower level and i drop one of them before they get to charge that still puts me in the middle of several combatants. Now it would not be so bad if the combatants started 100+feet away then i could cut down one or two of them before they got to me. So as i said all of you have good ideas but there is my reason that i have no meat shield. As for magic (arcane) in his world it is the source of all-evil. Yes some of the pcs are casters but they are all evil in fact 2 of them are my direct enemies that i am working to stop. So taking magic is not an option. I am now 2nd level targetteer and 4th level as a ranger and have the divine spells that are ok but will not help with my current trouble. Except for entangle which may slow down some of my foes a bit. I also get a pet. I took a riding dog (guard dog) but with 13 hit points it is not much of a meat shield and i think Valerin would hate to use the dog that way. Code of ethics and all. As far as tumble goes yes that is something i did not think of, mostly because i never imagined i would be traveling alone. All of his other campaigns were group games. So of course i have no ranks in it. However i shall start taking ranks now. So give me some input. I have a BAB of +6/+1 melee right now and +10/+5 ranged. I have no strength + but i have a +4 dex. Would you all take Weapon finesse and a short sword (i would take a rapier but they are not at all his style and role playing his style is more important to me than numbers). OR Multishot and drop 8 skill points in tumble. That would give me a tumble of +8 total with my dex. So i would only have to roll a 9 or higher against 2 flanking attackers. Let me know what you all think. Thanks again. :D Ps. to the guy that stated the obvious that ranged weapons are for ranged attacks. Yeah I know but when you join a game with 8 other players the obvious thing to think is that you will have at least one meat shield with you.
fatal error 09-15-04, 01:17 AM	Um, why in the world is everyone travelling alone in a campaign with 8 players? Also, how many sessions have you done, in other words, will your party be grouping up soon? If not I can't help but wonder what is going on in your game to have 8 people all seperate.
anders 09-15-04, 05:33 AM	shot on the run and manyshot would allow you to get out of range again.
Naeron 09-15-04, 06:38 AM	shot on the run and manyshot would allow you to get out of range again. You cannot use these feats together. As written and as clarified in the FAQ Shot on the Run allows an "attack action with a ranged weapon" while Manyshot is a Standard Action. These are two different types of action.
wizardsrepose 09-15-04, 08:53 AM	Um, why in the world is everyone travelling alone in a campaign with 8 players? Also, how many sessions have you done, in other words, will your party be grouping up soon? If not I can't help but wonder what is going on in your game to have 8 people all seperate. Well truth is the next battle I will be in there will be at least 2 other pc's that are fighting the good fight and none of the 'evil' pcs. One of them is a wizard that is a slightly lower level than Valerin so that is no help. The other is a knight that just stole my in game love. He had no idea at the time that Vale had hopes of making a life with her but after he rode in to town to help defend it from a pirate attack while Vale was out gathering Intel on the enemy’s plans, she just fell in to his arms. Hero of battle and all. Now the pirates have regrouped, Vale is back from his recon mission and has to fight side by side with the 'noble' knight. He calls himself noble but he is betrothed to a princess of house Nightfire yet he slept with Valerin's love a peasant girl from a backwater hunting village. Now it turns out that the wizard and I are getting along well and our goals in the game are the same. Neither of us like the knight but Valerin is trying to swallow his pride so we may be traveling together but the knight has very different goals than vale and the wizard so if we do end up traveling together it will be only for a short time. Because of the structure of the game none of the pcs have the exact same goals and the dm likes to pit us against each other. Here is a link to the game. It is the DM's own world and all original content. Check out the files section for histories, character backgrounds and such. http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/thepriceofblood/
krichaiushii 09-15-04, 09:28 AM	Talk (ingame or out of game) with the wizard (player) and figure out how best the two of you can complement each others' skills and abilities. In game, you are just wisely discussing tactics. Out of game... well, same thing. And I thought that all arcane magic was evil in your world? Should you be trusting this guy? Oh, and another tactic is to run if things look rough. Its not the most proud option, but it may result in the best survivability.
Craith 09-15-04, 10:30 AM	Ask you DM that he uses the encounter distances / undergrowth rules from the DMG, then you would have more time to pepper them with arrows / have some cover to hide and some bushes that might block charging Greetings Craith
wizardsrepose 09-15-04, 12:18 PM	[QUOTE=krichaiushii] And I thought that all arcane magic was evil in your world? Should you be trusting this guy?QUOTE] It is but Vale does not know how evil magic is since he is just a backwoods hunter. He judges people by thier actions and Simon the wizard has proved to be a very good ally. Now the knight Will, could have told him to be wary of the wizard but now it will just seem to Vale like lies since he deep down resents Will. When i said our goals are the same (Vale and Simon), it is true but from different points of view. The other mages have proven them selves to be 'evil', burning villages, killing other pc's families, Leading evil armies, that sort of stuff. My mission, given to me by my patron saint the Lady of the Hunt, is to stop the evil mages and thier armies. Simon works for a being known as the Scarecrow Man and his mission is also to stop the other mages. Simon has done nothing yet to show that he is evil where the others have by choice done things to that end. I can see why that is confusing especially from what i gave in my earlier post. Vale would not be opposed to having a spell or two cast on him. As long as they do not outwardly show. Like a protection spell would be ok but levitate or fly would not. It would kind of freak him out and also scare those he is sworn to protect. He is a Knight Errant of the village of Fog's Creek, Knighted by the Lord of the land after he rescued the lords son from pirates. He will be a true knight if he lives to his 16th birthday.
Steelwill 09-15-04, 02:01 PM	You cannot use these feats together. As written and as clarified in the FAQ Shot on the Run allows an "attack action with a ranged weapon" while Manyshot is a Standard Action. These are two different types of action. May I inquire about this information, because under the heading of Standard action in the PHB 3.5, "attack with a ranged weapon" is listed, so I fail to understand how these cannot work together? Attacks are a subset under standard action. Full attack is a subset under full round action. Why is this even an issue? Please clarify. As to the posters question, if you want to be more effective at using a bow in close quarters situations, improve tumble, take shot on the run, and manyshot, also try to use your terrain tactically, climb a tree and start raining arrows from above, jump on something high, use cover, hide and snipe, all the various options. My 2 cents hope it helps.
wizardsrepose 09-15-04, 03:10 PM	Ok there is one vote for ranks in tumble and multishot. i think it is too late in my feat path to take shot on the run. I would need to take Dodge and Moblilty before that one. Not that those are bad choices for feats but I would not actually get shot on the run till 12th level. Had i started on that path earlier it would have been great.
Centauri 09-15-04, 03:34 PM	Do archers actually lose the shot if they get whacked, or just take damage? As far as I can tell, they just take damage.
Twisted Puppy 09-15-04, 03:35 PM	If your ranger is constantly ending up in melee, the Quick Draw feat, along with Weapon Finesse, would be very handy. In fact, I'd recommend taking the weapon finesse first. That enables you to translate the high attack bonuses from your archer build (emphasis on Dex) to melee. The WF feat will really rock if you can get your hands on a Sunblade. ;)
wizardsrepose 09-15-04, 04:00 PM	Well that is now one for weapon finesse and one for tumble/multishot. I just looked it up in the faq. Shot on the run and Multishot do not stack. I am beginning to think someone at wizards does not like rangers. :rolleyes: It looks like in an attempt to round out Valerin i am going to stick with weapon finesse and maybe at 9th rather than taking Improved rapid shot i will take two weapon fighting or quick draw.
Dunbar 09-15-04, 05:31 PM	So in combat the dm always starts my foes at around 30 feet away. This does not work out well when there are 5 of them and only one of me. Even if they are lower level and i drop one of them before they get to charge that still puts me in the middle of several combatants. Now it would not be so bad if the combatants started 100+feet away then i could cut down one or two of them before they got to me. Well, here's your problem. Encounters shouldn't always be starting at 30ft. Sometimes, sure, if you are ambushed on the road or in a dungeon. But often you should be able to spot your opponents from longer range (you do have lots of ranks in spot and listen, right?). That'd be like having a melee character involved in combats that all start at 500ft across rough terrain. It's not fair. All that being said, there are things you can do. First off, keep mobile. If they are in heavy armor, you can shoot and move and keep your distance somewhat. If they start off say 30 ft away in medium armor, shoot once and back up 30ft. They are still outside of charge range. You can even run; you'll run 120ft compared to 60ft for a guy in splint mail. Buy yourself some breathing room before letting loose some arrows. As has been mentioned, tumbling can help, but it's cross-class for rangers. Still, with a high dex, it can be an option. Also, with 10 str, you are going to do far more damage with a bow. You have 3 attacks with rapid shot, and will do more damage than using a longsword. If your opponents are weak (and they should be if you are to survive 5 vs. 1), it may be worth it to 5ft step and rapid shot, even if you take an AoO, as you have a good chance to drop 1 or 2 foes. Tumble + manyshot is also a good tactic to keep mobile while keeping your damage up. If you can afford ranks in tumble, they will pay off, especially if you never plan to enter OotBI for close combat shot.
primemover003 09-15-04, 06:14 PM	Tumble and Manyshot is the cheapest way to go (as rangers get it for free). However diversity is good... Sometimes being a one-trick pony is a bad thing. Yeah 30' for all encounters stinks of bad encounter design. Your DM needs to read the section on wilderness encounters again. If this continues, RUN. You're most likely faster than any of the foes you face, due to lighter armor. Put as much distance between you and them as possible. When or if they close that distance make em sprout feathers!
Arrowhen 09-15-04, 06:28 PM	Run, climb up a tree, and snipe at them from up high.
eRaz0r 09-15-04, 06:29 PM	Don't bother with TWF. Get quickdraw or Finesse. You want to hit more often, rather than less, and stay on the move. TWF means you have to stick around to take a Full Attack Action (meaning only a 5' step). It also means you'll take some penalties to hit your opponent. Unless you already have Finesse, then you'll be using your minimal STR (ie no bonus) to hit them, and then waiting around for their melee attacks to all land on your light armor. If you take Finesse, you'll instantly get that Dex bonus to hit. Sure you'll do less damage than if you'd struck twice in a round - but two chances that miss = no damage. One better chance at hitting = more consistent. If you take Quick Draw, then you can unload your Full Arrow Attack and then quickdraw your sword as a free action when they close on you. Alternatively you can always Fire one attack and Move away. If you suspect they'll close the distance with a charge you can drop your bow as a free action and then quickdraw your sword to meet them at the end of your turn. If you get Manyshot, you can Manyshot as a standard action and then move. This means you don't need a full attack action to shoot more than one arrow. You should definitely be considering the Move Action + attack as your favourite option, instead of the Full Attack. Why ? because you want to keep them from surrounding you, and getting their flanking bonuses and full attack actions on you. Even provoking an AoO is better than waiting for a multi-attack critter to land all 3 of it's attacks on you. If you keep moving, unless they're all really fast, you should be able to stop from being surrounded. You can use the FAA when you've got a meat shield to help you out. Finally, I agree that your DM is hurting you with these close encounters. Are you a ranger, or a blind man letting critters creep up on you so easily ? If things are dropping out of the sky 30' in front of you, just run. 120' move should open the distance up nicely. If they pursue, so be it. Find some higher ground and rain arrows from there... Or somewhere to hide, then trail them and kill them at your leisure if that's the way of it. You're a woodsman - use that to your advantage. Hide and Move Silently. Track. Ambush. Spot and Listen. These are all your strengths. With a 10 Strength, standing toe to toe is not. If he continues to do this, I'd advocate a level or two of Rogue. Better hide and MS, plus some chance of trap detection. Combine that with your dog companion to flank and it's Sneak Attack heaven. See how he likes that ! :)
wizardsrepose 09-16-04, 10:04 AM	Thanks for all the help. I would love to stick with taking multishot this level but i fear that may not be an option. My spot and listen are maxed at +11 but i rarely get the chance to use them. The last 2 battles there was plenty of room for me to spot the pirates coming up on me. When the battle started they were 30 away. It may not be like this forever but right now i am fighting pirates who are usully 2nd to 3rd level fighters or rogues (judging level by how many arrows it takes to kill them.) Out running them is not an option as none of them have had an ac better than 15. I think i will stick with weapon finesse and hope i do not regret it. In 2 levels (6 to 8 gaming sessions) i will get manyshot and my dog will be beefier with 4 hd rather than just 2. The game after that i will prolly switch back to targetteer and i will get to take either quick draw or improved rapid shot that or i will take OotBI but i still do not think it fits my character. I really do not want to switch back to targetteer but i may have to so i can make up for loosing feats to melee.
wizardsrepose 09-17-04, 10:06 AM	Well I was going over my character sheet last night and realized i was short 9 skill points. I did not add any of my points for being human. So i dumped all of them in to tumble. I now have a +9 tumble which is not bad if i am only threatened by 2 or 3. A d20 of 10 or better and i am outta there. I still have not decided on a feat but now i am leaning more toward Multishot. Also i was looking in the complete warrior at the tactial feats. I cannot recall the name of the feat right now but there is one that allows you to make a trip attempt on foes that get an AoO when you move out of a threatened space. The prereqs that i would need are dodge and mob. Thanks again for everyones help.
Timely Drought 09-19-04, 05:41 AM	You should talk to your DM about using spot and setting variable encounter distance. Try to be non-confrontational but explain that you feel you are being unfairly disadvantaged compared to melee fighters and that you do not get the benefits of the points you put in spot (and hide if you have that in addition to cover or concealment to use it).