Archery? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Archery? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zee'Tah
02-22-05, 07:41 PM I could not find this anywhere so I'll ask. Can you use a secondary attack if your BAB is above 5 to shoot multiple arrows?
aka shooting 2 arrows if your BAB is +6, (one at a +6 bonus and the other at a +1)

I know that you can shoot two arrows with the rapid shot but I'm just talking about w/out that stuff.

Thanks for the answer :)
Salla
02-22-05, 07:52 PM Yep.
Nom
02-22-05, 08:54 PM Assuming that you can reload as a free action, yes.

To reload as a free action requires:
* short or long bow (or composite version)
* shuriken
* repeating crossbow (with bolts ready)
* any thrown weapon and Quick Draw
* hand or light crossbow and Rapid Reload.

You can never get multiple attacks per round with a Sling or Heavy Crossbow, since it is always at least a move action to load these weapons.

The rules for the above are scattered throughout the equipment (PH ch 7) and Feat (PH ch 5) sections.
Zee'Tah
02-22-05, 08:56 PM I'm DMing a campaign with a party of lvl 6 people

My sister is a ranger with an ungodly powerful Mighty Composite Longbow w/ +3 STR and Frost damage... It does 1d8 + 1d6 +3 damage. She does have rapid shot, but choose TWF as her ranger specialty.

So how many shots can she do? She has a BAB of +6 so according to you she can do up to 3d8 + 3d6(frost) +9 damage per round.

OR with hast (the mages favorite spell) she can do 4d8 + 4d6frost +12!

This is right? That is insane!

Yeah... I'm making sure because she is a bit more powerful than any of the other PCs.
Lord Gwydion
02-22-05, 10:09 PM Well, she can do all that damage IF all of her attacks hit.

Using rapid shot, she takes a -2 penalty to all of her attacks, making her BAB effectively +4/+4/-1 (add in Dex and magic bonuses if any to this).

Most CR6 monsters have an AC of around 18-24 (some more, some less), so let's just assume an average AC of 20 (don't have the books to confirm this, just trying to remember the best I can...).

Anyway, let's also assume that this ranger has Dex 18 (+4) and a +1 enhancement bonus to the bow, making the rapid shot adjust to +9/+9/+4. She'll need to roll two 11s or higher, then a 16 or higher to hit with all three attacks in a round. So she's got a 50% chance for each of the first two shots, then a 25% chance for the final shot to hit. .5 x .5 x .25 = .0625, or just slightly better than 6% chance of this happening in any particular round.

With haste (the hasted shot also gets the rapid shot -2 penalty), the chances of all 4 shots hitting are .03125, only 3%. Not that likely. And if the Ranger's Dex is lower, the chances of all shots hitting decreases even more.

Also, remember that the average damage for a d8 is 4.5, and for a d6 is 3.5. 4.5 x 4 + 3.5 x 4 + 12 = 18+14+12= 44 damage. Now the 6th level mage's fireball will do on average 21 points of damage at that level, but it's to multiple opponents, and the damage only decreases to 10 points with a saving throw. If there are 4 opponents in the blast radius and they make their saves, the mage still did about the same level of damage that round as the ranger. A sneak attacking Rogue will (assuming a +1 shortsword and a mere +1 Str bonus) deal 4d6+2 damage, average 16 damage with just one attack, compared to the average 11 points of damage for the Ranger's attack. The higher BAB for the Ranger means she'll hit more often, but the smartly played Rogue actually hits harder.

Out of curiousity, what are the other players, and what sort of cool magical items do they have?
Nom
02-22-05, 11:10 PM Firstly, note that the elemental damage enhancements are often considered to be more powerful than a standard +1. The drawback is that anything with appropriate energy resistance is essentially immune to the elemental damage.

Let's compare your ranger with bow to the same ranger wielding a +1 two-handed sword of frost. BAB with haste is +6/+6/+1, for a total attack bonus of +10/+10/+5 (assume 16 Str). Against AC 20 that is 0.55 / 0.55 / 0.30, for an expected 1.4 hits / round. Damage is 2d6 + 1d6 + 5 (x1.5 Str) per hit, for an expected yield of 15.5, or 21.7 points / round.

Expected results for hasted rapid shot bow at Dex 16 is +8/+8/+8/+3 are 1.6 hits / round, for expected yield of (1d8 + 1d6 + 4) 12 * 1.6 = 19.2 points / round.

Advantage of bow: range.
Advantage of sword: can make AoOs, does not provoke AoOs when used, higher damage output.

And the guy with the sword can charge rather effectively while hasted (+30 ft. movement), which is something you can't do with a bow.

Side comment: a character with Str 16+ and Dex 16+ is always going to be quite potent in combat, but on a standard 25 point build is rather weak otherwise (less so for elves or half-orcs). Make sure you take the opportunity to play to character's weaknesses and strengths.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zee'Tah 02-22-05, 07:41 PM	I could not find this anywhere so I'll ask. Can you use a secondary attack if your BAB is above 5 to shoot multiple arrows? aka shooting 2 arrows if your BAB is +6, (one at a +6 bonus and the other at a +1) I know that you can shoot two arrows with the rapid shot but I'm just talking about w/out that stuff. Thanks for the answer :)
Salla 02-22-05, 07:52 PM	Yep.
Nom 02-22-05, 08:54 PM	Assuming that you can reload as a free action, yes. To reload as a free action requires: * short or long bow (or composite version) * shuriken * repeating crossbow (with bolts ready) * any thrown weapon and Quick Draw * hand or light crossbow and Rapid Reload. You can never get multiple attacks per round with a Sling or Heavy Crossbow, since it is always at least a move action to load these weapons. The rules for the above are scattered throughout the equipment (PH ch 7) and Feat (PH ch 5) sections.
Zee'Tah 02-22-05, 08:56 PM	I'm DMing a campaign with a party of lvl 6 people My sister is a ranger with an ungodly powerful Mighty Composite Longbow w/ +3 STR and Frost damage... It does 1d8 + 1d6 +3 damage. She does have rapid shot, but choose TWF as her ranger specialty. So how many shots can she do? She has a BAB of +6 so according to you she can do up to 3d8 + 3d6(frost) +9 damage per round. OR with hast (the mages favorite spell) she can do 4d8 + 4d6frost +12! This is right? That is insane! Yeah... I'm making sure because she is a bit more powerful than any of the other PCs.
Lord Gwydion 02-22-05, 10:09 PM	Well, she can do all that damage IF all of her attacks hit. Using rapid shot, she takes a -2 penalty to all of her attacks, making her BAB effectively +4/+4/-1 (add in Dex and magic bonuses if any to this). Most CR6 monsters have an AC of around 18-24 (some more, some less), so let's just assume an average AC of 20 (don't have the books to confirm this, just trying to remember the best I can...). Anyway, let's also assume that this ranger has Dex 18 (+4) and a +1 enhancement bonus to the bow, making the rapid shot adjust to +9/+9/+4. She'll need to roll two 11s or higher, then a 16 or higher to hit with all three attacks in a round. So she's got a 50% chance for each of the first two shots, then a 25% chance for the final shot to hit. .5 x .5 x .25 = .0625, or just slightly better than 6% chance of this happening in any particular round. With haste (the hasted shot also gets the rapid shot -2 penalty), the chances of all 4 shots hitting are .03125, only 3%. Not that likely. And if the Ranger's Dex is lower, the chances of all shots hitting decreases even more. Also, remember that the average damage for a d8 is 4.5, and for a d6 is 3.5. 4.5 x 4 + 3.5 x 4 + 12 = 18+14+12= 44 damage. Now the 6th level mage's fireball will do on average 21 points of damage at that level, but it's to multiple opponents, and the damage only decreases to 10 points with a saving throw. If there are 4 opponents in the blast radius and they make their saves, the mage still did about the same level of damage that round as the ranger. A sneak attacking Rogue will (assuming a +1 shortsword and a mere +1 Str bonus) deal 4d6+2 damage, average 16 damage with just one attack, compared to the average 11 points of damage for the Ranger's attack. The higher BAB for the Ranger means she'll hit more often, but the smartly played Rogue actually hits harder. Out of curiousity, what are the other players, and what sort of cool magical items do they have?
Nom 02-22-05, 11:10 PM	Firstly, note that the elemental damage enhancements are often considered to be more powerful than a standard +1. The drawback is that anything with appropriate energy resistance is essentially immune to the elemental damage. Let's compare your ranger with bow to the same ranger wielding a +1 two-handed sword of frost. BAB with haste is +6/+6/+1, for a total attack bonus of +10/+10/+5 (assume 16 Str). Against AC 20 that is 0.55 / 0.55 / 0.30, for an expected 1.4 hits / round. Damage is 2d6 + 1d6 + 5 (x1.5 Str) per hit, for an expected yield of 15.5, or 21.7 points / round. Expected results for hasted rapid shot bow at Dex 16 is +8/+8/+8/+3 are 1.6 hits / round, for expected yield of (1d8 + 1d6 + 4) 12 * 1.6 = 19.2 points / round. Advantage of bow: range. Advantage of sword: can make AoOs, does not provoke AoOs when used, higher damage output. And the guy with the sword can charge rather effectively while hasted (+30 ft. movement), which is something you can't do with a bow. Side comment: a character with Str 16+ and Dex 16+ is always going to be quite potent in combat, but on a standard 25 point build is rather weak otherwise (less so for elves or half-orcs). Make sure you take the opportunity to play to character's weaknesses and strengths.