Are half-Orc/Elves too weak [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are half-Orc/Elves too weak [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BOK2
09-12-04, 10:40 PM Compared to the other core races half-orcs and half-elves dont get much in abilities, Half-orcs get +2 str -2 int/cha and darvision and that's it, while half-elves get watered down versions of their fullblooded parents. I think it's about time they get tweaked up abit dont you.
:)
Kalanth
09-12-04, 11:20 PM Not at all. I have seen both become very powerful and successful characters in the past. its all based on the choices you make in the characters career. Even with the -2 Int, I watched a player take a Half-Orc and become one of the most powerful mages I have ever seen, and the Half-Elf represents the majority of the Barbarian population on my Homegrown world, and I would never call them watered down (and they are not changed in any way). In essence, I believe the core races are very well balanced, and there are many much worse races out there (both weaker and stronger) than both of these.
CapnSwashbuckler
09-13-04, 01:42 AM I agree with BOK2. Compare Half-Orcs to Dwarves and you'll see why. I think Count Arioch was on to something when he gave Half-Elves extra skill points and Half-Orcs an extra feat at character creation to reflect their half-human lineage. Aside from those steps, their human lineage is not reflected; besides, it makes the characters more powerful.

If you're in an RP-heavy campaign, then I guess the power imbalance in the rules is no big deal. Otherwise, I think it's a big enough issue that the group should do something about it. Provided someone wants to play one, thus bringing it up.
FriendoftheDork
09-13-04, 01:58 AM but half elves and half orcs are watered down elves and orcs! :)
TheGreenGriffon
09-14-04, 09:02 PM with the +2 Str at least Half-Orcs have something good, Str is a pretty handy bonus for fighter and cleric types and they have Darkvision so its not a total loss.

Half elves on the other hand have no racial adjustments, low light vision and bonuses to enchantment. Not very good when you consider what the other races get. Half-Elves in a game mechanic perspective got overlooked twice, in 3.0 and 3.5 and they need a serious overhaul.
philopharynx
09-15-04, 01:45 AM Half-orcs are slightly underpowered if you try and do anything but a melee fighter, in which case they are slightly overpowered.

Helf-elves are definitely underpowered. I haven't seen one half-elf PC in any game I've played in years. Giving them the humkan skill bonus would help offset that.
zorro74
09-15-04, 01:53 AM Half-Elves and Half-Orcs have incredible potential as far as roleplaying goes.
Part of two worlds yet home to none. You can feel the tensions as you create the character, its history, the implications. You become a half-something to add spice to a campaign not to harvest the pluses and the minuses. If not, look into becoming a full Orc or Elf.
If you want more than that you can vary it a little bit: Half-elf, what kind of elf? wood, gray, high, wild etc. Orc, what tribe? what are the attributes linked with the tribe?
How about a half-Darkelf? they would start with somme innane spell-like abilities.

Digging into the history deep enough will help you balance the hack and slash.

Z
Dauntless
09-15-04, 02:45 AM role-playing based band-aids are no excuse for mechanical inferiority.
Steelwill
09-15-04, 02:46 PM role-playing based band-aids are no excuse for mechanical inferiority.

Well said, I like it!

I agree that half-orcs and half-elves are a bit weak. Considering that if you apply science( I know this is almost criminal to do in D&D but please bear with me), genetically when you mix races, which are least similar, then you end up with more dominant genetic traits than recessive, which usually produces a higher quality offspring than either parent, from a purely genetic perspective. So why then do the halfbreeds get shafted, they shouldn't actually have less abilities than either parent, they should have all of their abilities combined, especially those that represent evolutionary advancement (greater strength, keener senses, etc.).

Now things like weapon proficiencies for the Elves (shorsword, longsword, rapier, shortbow, and longbow) represent societal inclinations, so if a half-elf doesn't get those it makes sense if he was raised in human lands, however if raised with elves, a half-elf should have them. Orc society isn't detailed enough for me to expound on what a half-orc raised by orcs should have or not, but the same would theoretically apply.

I realize I am using both science and background to try to justify a game mechanics issue, but these points I do beleive are relevant because I also believe the half-orc and half-elf are weaker than other race options. I mean there isn't much general versatility for an half orc other than a barbarian or fighter type, simply because most players pick a race that compliments their class choice, not one that makes it more difficult, exceptions noted, most do not. Half-Elves don't even have that, their is no class that benefits more from being half-elven than any other race, so they aren't at all a popular pick. I mean from a mechanical perspective, using wizard as an example, an elf would be better, particularly if the DM allowed the variant Grey Elf, with a +2 to Int -2 to Str. In my campaigns to make Half-Elves more attractive, I ask the potential Half-Elven player to decide if he was raised by humans or elves, and depending on the answer, I let him take the elven weapon proficiencies if raised by elves, or I say he nurtured the human side of himself, and gets bonus skill points at first level and 1 bonus point every level after that. I am loathe to give them the human bonus feat because then nobody would play a human. For half-orcs, same if raised by humans, if raised by orcs, they get Orc Shotput, and Orc Double Axe as free martial weapon proficiencies. This I think makes sense for my campaigns, and helps offset their underpowered nature, but I still believe more needs(ed) to be done with these races to bring them up to par. My 2 cents, hope it helps.
Shard of Suzail
09-15-04, 04:21 PM Its worth bearing in mind that, in many campaigns, half breeds get really poor treatment at the hands of either race that spawned them. A good chunk of true elves wouldnt so much as acknowledge a half elf and a half orc is usually run out of town as some sort of thieving freak. Likewise, most orcs would give a half orc a terrible time and he would most probably end up as a slave or worse.

I would strongly opt for giving will, fortitude or Con bonuses to such individuals, to reflect their having coped with not fitting in anywhere. They shouldnt just represent watered down versions of their parents, but should have a few specific hardiness traits all of their own.

We`ve only seen one half elf in our campaign, an NPC half sister to our only elf. He spends quality time trying to hunt her out and kill her as "a stain on his family honour". Likewise, we had a half orc player once and he was killed after walking into town and taking some guy's chicken leg as a free breakfast. The other players had him burned to death (not surprising really, they had just defeated an orcish army).

Disturbingly, i once played a half elf myself and the first thing that happened to me was that the wood elf player spat in my face (!) and that was with a different group (yes, he did it in real life and it wasnt pleasant...i think he got somewhat carried away).

So if anyone wants to play one of these sorry creatures, then good luck to them!
Rashiko
09-15-04, 04:42 PM In my opinion, Half-Elves have an inherent bonus if you shoose to become a bard. The neutral racial standing helps if you choose to be the "public face" for the group as well. If you play purely for combat-oriented situations, however, they are probably not the best choice for you. Outside of combat though, I find them to be quite useful.
TheGreenGriffon
09-15-04, 06:28 PM How about a half-Darkelf? they would start with somme innane spell-like abilities.

Actually there are Half-Drow, its first introduced officially in 3ed in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. The only difference is Darkvision 60' and a different selection of weapons and of course starting languages, other than that they are bsically Halfelves with Dark skin.

There is something introduced later on that allows a Half-Drow to sacrifice leveling up to his next class level in favor of manifesting his true dark elf powers but this comes at a price of 2-3 levels, probably 2.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BOK2 09-12-04, 10:40 PM	Compared to the other core races half-orcs and half-elves dont get much in abilities, Half-orcs get +2 str -2 int/cha and darvision and that's it, while half-elves get watered down versions of their fullblooded parents. I think it's about time they get tweaked up abit dont you. :)
Kalanth 09-12-04, 11:20 PM	Not at all. I have seen both become very powerful and successful characters in the past. its all based on the choices you make in the characters career. Even with the -2 Int, I watched a player take a Half-Orc and become one of the most powerful mages I have ever seen, and the Half-Elf represents the majority of the Barbarian population on my Homegrown world, and I would never call them watered down (and they are not changed in any way). In essence, I believe the core races are very well balanced, and there are many much worse races out there (both weaker and stronger) than both of these.
CapnSwashbuckler 09-13-04, 01:42 AM	I agree with BOK2. Compare Half-Orcs to Dwarves and you'll see why. I think Count Arioch was on to something when he gave Half-Elves extra skill points and Half-Orcs an extra feat at character creation to reflect their half-human lineage. Aside from those steps, their human lineage is not reflected; besides, it makes the characters more powerful. If you're in an RP-heavy campaign, then I guess the power imbalance in the rules is no big deal. Otherwise, I think it's a big enough issue that the group should do something about it. Provided someone wants to play one, thus bringing it up.
FriendoftheDork 09-13-04, 01:58 AM	but half elves and half orcs are watered down elves and orcs! :)
TheGreenGriffon 09-14-04, 09:02 PM	with the +2 Str at least Half-Orcs have something good, Str is a pretty handy bonus for fighter and cleric types and they have Darkvision so its not a total loss. Half elves on the other hand have no racial adjustments, low light vision and bonuses to enchantment. Not very good when you consider what the other races get. Half-Elves in a game mechanic perspective got overlooked twice, in 3.0 and 3.5 and they need a serious overhaul.
philopharynx 09-15-04, 01:45 AM	Half-orcs are slightly underpowered if you try and do anything but a melee fighter, in which case they are slightly overpowered. Helf-elves are definitely underpowered. I haven't seen one half-elf PC in any game I've played in years. Giving them the humkan skill bonus would help offset that.
zorro74 09-15-04, 01:53 AM	Half-Elves and Half-Orcs have incredible potential as far as roleplaying goes. Part of two worlds yet home to none. You can feel the tensions as you create the character, its history, the implications. You become a half-something to add spice to a campaign not to harvest the pluses and the minuses. If not, look into becoming a full Orc or Elf. If you want more than that you can vary it a little bit: Half-elf, what kind of elf? wood, gray, high, wild etc. Orc, what tribe? what are the attributes linked with the tribe? How about a half-Darkelf? they would start with somme innane spell-like abilities. Digging into the history deep enough will help you balance the hack and slash. Z
Dauntless 09-15-04, 02:45 AM	role-playing based band-aids are no excuse for mechanical inferiority.
Steelwill 09-15-04, 02:46 PM	role-playing based band-aids are no excuse for mechanical inferiority. Well said, I like it! I agree that half-orcs and half-elves are a bit weak. Considering that if you apply science( I know this is almost criminal to do in D&D but please bear with me), genetically when you mix races, which are least similar, then you end up with more dominant genetic traits than recessive, which usually produces a higher quality offspring than either parent, from a purely genetic perspective. So why then do the halfbreeds get shafted, they shouldn't actually have less abilities than either parent, they should have all of their abilities combined, especially those that represent evolutionary advancement (greater strength, keener senses, etc.). Now things like weapon proficiencies for the Elves (shorsword, longsword, rapier, shortbow, and longbow) represent societal inclinations, so if a half-elf doesn't get those it makes sense if he was raised in human lands, however if raised with elves, a half-elf should have them. Orc society isn't detailed enough for me to expound on what a half-orc raised by orcs should have or not, but the same would theoretically apply. I realize I am using both science and background to try to justify a game mechanics issue, but these points I do beleive are relevant because I also believe the half-orc and half-elf are weaker than other race options. I mean there isn't much general versatility for an half orc other than a barbarian or fighter type, simply because most players pick a race that compliments their class choice, not one that makes it more difficult, exceptions noted, most do not. Half-Elves don't even have that, their is no class that benefits more from being half-elven than any other race, so they aren't at all a popular pick. I mean from a mechanical perspective, using wizard as an example, an elf would be better, particularly if the DM allowed the variant Grey Elf, with a +2 to Int -2 to Str. In my campaigns to make Half-Elves more attractive, I ask the potential Half-Elven player to decide if he was raised by humans or elves, and depending on the answer, I let him take the elven weapon proficiencies if raised by elves, or I say he nurtured the human side of himself, and gets bonus skill points at first level and 1 bonus point every level after that. I am loathe to give them the human bonus feat because then nobody would play a human. For half-orcs, same if raised by humans, if raised by orcs, they get Orc Shotput, and Orc Double Axe as free martial weapon proficiencies. This I think makes sense for my campaigns, and helps offset their underpowered nature, but I still believe more needs(ed) to be done with these races to bring them up to par. My 2 cents, hope it helps.
Shard of Suzail 09-15-04, 04:21 PM	Its worth bearing in mind that, in many campaigns, half breeds get really poor treatment at the hands of either race that spawned them. A good chunk of true elves wouldnt so much as acknowledge a half elf and a half orc is usually run out of town as some sort of thieving freak. Likewise, most orcs would give a half orc a terrible time and he would most probably end up as a slave or worse. I would strongly opt for giving will, fortitude or Con bonuses to such individuals, to reflect their having coped with not fitting in anywhere. They shouldnt just represent watered down versions of their parents, but should have a few specific hardiness traits all of their own. We`ve only seen one half elf in our campaign, an NPC half sister to our only elf. He spends quality time trying to hunt her out and kill her as "a stain on his family honour". Likewise, we had a half orc player once and he was killed after walking into town and taking some guy's chicken leg as a free breakfast. The other players had him burned to death (not surprising really, they had just defeated an orcish army). Disturbingly, i once played a half elf myself and the first thing that happened to me was that the wood elf player spat in my face (!) and that was with a different group (yes, he did it in real life and it wasnt pleasant...i think he got somewhat carried away). So if anyone wants to play one of these sorry creatures, then good luck to them!
Rashiko 09-15-04, 04:42 PM	In my opinion, Half-Elves have an inherent bonus if you shoose to become a bard. The neutral racial standing helps if you choose to be the "public face" for the group as well. If you play purely for combat-oriented situations, however, they are probably not the best choice for you. Outside of combat though, I find them to be quite useful.
TheGreenGriffon 09-15-04, 06:28 PM	How about a half-Darkelf? they would start with somme innane spell-like abilities. Actually there are Half-Drow, its first introduced officially in 3ed in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. The only difference is Darkvision 60' and a different selection of weapons and of course starting languages, other than that they are bsically Halfelves with Dark skin. There is something introduced later on that allows a Half-Drow to sacrifice leveling up to his next class level in favor of manifesting his true dark elf powers but this comes at a price of 2-3 levels, probably 2.