Are manipulators fun for you? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are manipulators fun for you? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gottwick
09-10-06, 01:02 PM As a DM, I think villains who remain hidden and attack from afar are boring to PCs. They don't know who they're fighting or why. Like rakshasas, mind flayers, vampires, any genius manipulative villain. It works great in other genres like superhero or horror, so I'm experienced running them. I just don't remember any from fantasy fiction.

What do you think? Do you like hidden, manipulative villains?
Conshey
09-10-06, 01:16 PM Yes, yes, in the name of Nerull yes!!!

why, well i love to send multitudes of minions at the PC's time after time, each coming from a different direction, forcing the PC's to act or be horrifically mamed or something, and then in the end when they finally reach the BBEG for the campaign i'll spend an hour explaining how each adventure and encounter tied into the manipulation to help the PC's get to the climax. Then to see the look of understanding on there faces for a split second that instantly turns to a brief hatred of me for doing it, and then to joy to have finished one of my complex stories. it really brings the entire table together as friends and also really makes them appreciate a good story, instead of yet another hack-n-slash that has no point. to this day my Players speak of my complex stories with respect and honor.

Conshey
Silverthumb128
09-10-06, 01:27 PM They're alright, I guess. You have to be that much smarter than the PCs, though, otherwise, you'll be a quick XP/treasure boost for the PCs. A group of PCs that works together to outwit one fairly weak but very smart NPC has a very small amount of work in front of them, as opposed to a single very powerful BBEG.
Conshey
09-10-06, 01:54 PM oh come on...

in an epic campaign the manipulator is the best...my personal favorite is the epic Thrallherd and Psion Incarnate, first thrall an epic True Necromancer, and second Thrall, the Thri-Kreen with Perfect multiweapon fighting, lions pounce and 4 Shortswords of speed and wounding...now combine that with Schism and Fusion and you've got your manipulator incarnated in the form of the ultimate fighter, high hit points, high con damage, and a manifested power every turn, not to mention the hordes of undead lumbering toward you. And i would forget about defeating all of the undead, there ranks are refilled instantly because of the believers that the thrallherd gets are replaced within 24 hours. The manipulater directly or indirectly controls almost 10000 minions and can have trivial fancy with the PC's until they become real threats, or he might even be making them strong perposely to aquire them when there powerful (think Star Wars). Then when the PC's finally defeat this guy at all odds, it is much better than killing a random BBEG at the end of a dunguoen that the DM drew up that week.

Conshey
True Archon
09-10-06, 02:22 PM As a DM myself, I do like to have manipulators that work behind the scenes. However, I also try to read my players as to whether this is a route that they'd like to go, because, as you said, it can be boring for some players.

It is an art form to design a "manipulator" BBEG, because if you don't do it right, the PCs will either find it boring, frustrating, or pointless to what they view as "fun." There are some things that are important to running a manipulator successfully.

1. Have the players at least meet the manipulator at least once, and make it memorable, yet not too obvious. They may not know it at the time that they meet this BBEG, but at least it'll put a face to who was pulling the strings later on. Otherwise, if the PCs find out that it was someone that they had never met, they're gonna feel cheated that they never had a chance to "fight back."

2. Give them clues throughout the adventure. This is almost like the number 1 above. If you don't give the PCs clues as to a possible behind-the-scenes manipulator, they're gonna feel cheated when the revelation is finally brought to them. Worse, they're not going to have any lasting feeling about this manipulator, because they didn't have any clue up until the point of revelation, anyway.

3. Remain mysterious, but don't thwart every attempt by the PCs to protect this villian that you so carefully worked on. In other words, if the PCs come up with a wonderful idea to shed some light on whatever is going on, don't trump all of their attempts to protect your "work of art." If possible, give them only the information that they need, or may have garnered later on, if this happens earlier than expect. If your PCs are really clever, and they figure it all out long before you intended... Oh well! Don't cheat them of their rightfully earned victory, and work upon what happens next. Who knows, you could suddenly come up with a quick plan to have another "higher" manipulator that is manipulating the villian they uncovered. Just be sure to give them a clue as soon as possible (maybe a sack of coin and a "note" on the villian's dead body, or lair).

Personally, I like having the "manipulator" every so often. It not only changes up the pace of the game, but it also can reward those players that have built their characters for just such an event (i.e. skill points in Gather Information, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, divination spells, bardic abilities, etc.). However, it also depends a lot upon what type of game that your group likes to play.
kelvinaw273
09-10-06, 04:47 PM Yes ... best kind of villain is a behind-the-scenes one. Works even better if they turn out to be somebody the characters already know.
Shaggy_Shaggs
09-10-06, 04:58 PM As a player, I think a game completely lacking in manipulators can get boring fast, but don't overdo it! I can only take so much "Sorry Mario, but our princess is in another castle" hollow victory before it gets really frustrating and old.

Sure, install an elusive, string-pulling lich or vampire or corrupt court vizier and run him to the best of your ability. But give me some straightforward warlords, brute monsters and thugs, too. I don't want to spend all my time screwing around in the middle of the schemes of some distant unapproachable enemy I can only deal with when the DM decides he's finished toying with the PCs.
Gottwick
09-10-06, 05:11 PM I mainly meant is it fun for you players. Thus posting in the players section, not the DMs'.
DwarvinJedi
09-10-06, 05:11 PM I like them so I don't have to send the same enemies at my PC's all the time, because if you have them invading an orc-infested area, there aren't as many possibilities
As a player same reason
Righter8
09-10-06, 05:29 PM Yes ... best kind of villain is a behind-the-scenes one. Works even better if they turn out to be somebody the characters already know.

That's second best. It's been done a thousand times. THE Best, is when its that kobold who managed to escape the party at first level and has been manipulating them for 20 levels.
Salla
09-10-06, 05:33 PM Oh yes. I get very bored with the formula one DM has, which is 'hand mission to PCs, have a fight, go home'. Three games so far, and they've all been like that. The fights haven't even been that impressive ... most of the fun has been from character interplay.

I've even TRIED to give him hints about ways to go with it. We got jumped by a bunch of thugs, seemingly at random. "I wonder who they were working for?" I asked leadingly.

We trail some crooks back to their hideout and beat them up handily. "I wonder why they stole all this stuff ..." I ask, hoping for a deeper meaning.

Sigh.
DarkNick
09-10-06, 05:39 PM As a player I don't usually like it. I hate being minipulated around, especially if you know it is happening. The evil dude is always just out of reach and you don't really know what they want. I like it when I can take control of a situation.

But it can work if it is set up right. You know who the bad dudes are (at least you know the figure head - it is always interesting to find out the true manipulator was something else in the background), you can see some of the evil things they are doing (though you may not know why) and you get a chance to disrupt a lot of their operations i.e. make you feel like your achieving something even if you find out later that it was all in the bad guys plan anyway.
Salla
09-10-06, 05:49 PM Having someone you can't touch makes it all the sweeter when you finally *do* get a chance to get your hands on 'em, too. Nothing is as galling and motivating as failure except perhaps frustration. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gottwick 09-10-06, 01:02 PM	As a DM, I think villains who remain hidden and attack from afar are boring to PCs. They don't know who they're fighting or why. Like rakshasas, mind flayers, vampires, any genius manipulative villain. It works great in other genres like superhero or horror, so I'm experienced running them. I just don't remember any from fantasy fiction. What do you think? Do you like hidden, manipulative villains?
Conshey 09-10-06, 01:16 PM	Yes, yes, in the name of Nerull yes!!! why, well i love to send multitudes of minions at the PC's time after time, each coming from a different direction, forcing the PC's to act or be horrifically mamed or something, and then in the end when they finally reach the BBEG for the campaign i'll spend an hour explaining how each adventure and encounter tied into the manipulation to help the PC's get to the climax. Then to see the look of understanding on there faces for a split second that instantly turns to a brief hatred of me for doing it, and then to joy to have finished one of my complex stories. it really brings the entire table together as friends and also really makes them appreciate a good story, instead of yet another hack-n-slash that has no point. to this day my Players speak of my complex stories with respect and honor. Conshey
Silverthumb128 09-10-06, 01:27 PM	They're alright, I guess. You have to be that much smarter than the PCs, though, otherwise, you'll be a quick XP/treasure boost for the PCs. A group of PCs that works together to outwit one fairly weak but very smart NPC has a very small amount of work in front of them, as opposed to a single very powerful BBEG.
Conshey 09-10-06, 01:54 PM	oh come on... in an epic campaign the manipulator is the best...my personal favorite is the epic Thrallherd and Psion Incarnate, first thrall an epic True Necromancer, and second Thrall, the Thri-Kreen with Perfect multiweapon fighting, lions pounce and 4 Shortswords of speed and wounding...now combine that with Schism and Fusion and you've got your manipulator incarnated in the form of the ultimate fighter, high hit points, high con damage, and a manifested power every turn, not to mention the hordes of undead lumbering toward you. And i would forget about defeating all of the undead, there ranks are refilled instantly because of the believers that the thrallherd gets are replaced within 24 hours. The manipulater directly or indirectly controls almost 10000 minions and can have trivial fancy with the PC's until they become real threats, or he might even be making them strong perposely to aquire them when there powerful (think Star Wars). Then when the PC's finally defeat this guy at all odds, it is much better than killing a random BBEG at the end of a dunguoen that the DM drew up that week. Conshey
True Archon 09-10-06, 02:22 PM	As a DM myself, I do like to have manipulators that work behind the scenes. However, I also try to read my players as to whether this is a route that they'd like to go, because, as you said, it can be boring for some players. It is an art form to design a "manipulator" BBEG, because if you don't do it right, the PCs will either find it boring, frustrating, or pointless to what they view as "fun." There are some things that are important to running a manipulator successfully. 1. Have the players at least meet the manipulator at least once, and make it memorable, yet not too obvious. They may not know it at the time that they meet this BBEG, but at least it'll put a face to who was pulling the strings later on. Otherwise, if the PCs find out that it was someone that they had never met, they're gonna feel cheated that they never had a chance to "fight back." 2. Give them clues throughout the adventure. This is almost like the number 1 above. If you don't give the PCs clues as to a possible behind-the-scenes manipulator, they're gonna feel cheated when the revelation is finally brought to them. Worse, they're not going to have any lasting feeling about this manipulator, because they didn't have any clue up until the point of revelation, anyway. 3. Remain mysterious, but don't thwart every attempt by the PCs to protect this villian that you so carefully worked on. In other words, if the PCs come up with a wonderful idea to shed some light on whatever is going on, don't trump all of their attempts to protect your "work of art." If possible, give them only the information that they need, or may have garnered later on, if this happens earlier than expect. If your PCs are really clever, and they figure it all out long before you intended... Oh well! Don't cheat them of their rightfully earned victory, and work upon what happens next. Who knows, you could suddenly come up with a quick plan to have another "higher" manipulator that is manipulating the villian they uncovered. Just be sure to give them a clue as soon as possible (maybe a sack of coin and a "note" on the villian's dead body, or lair). Personally, I like having the "manipulator" every so often. It not only changes up the pace of the game, but it also can reward those players that have built their characters for just such an event (i.e. skill points in Gather Information, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, divination spells, bardic abilities, etc.). However, it also depends a lot upon what type of game that your group likes to play.
kelvinaw273 09-10-06, 04:47 PM	Yes ... best kind of villain is a behind-the-scenes one. Works even better if they turn out to be somebody the characters already know.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-10-06, 04:58 PM	As a player, I think a game completely lacking in manipulators can get boring fast, but don't overdo it! I can only take so much "Sorry Mario, but our princess is in another castle" hollow victory before it gets really frustrating and old. Sure, install an elusive, string-pulling lich or vampire or corrupt court vizier and run him to the best of your ability. But give me some straightforward warlords, brute monsters and thugs, too. I don't want to spend all my time screwing around in the middle of the schemes of some distant unapproachable enemy I can only deal with when the DM decides he's finished toying with the PCs.
Gottwick 09-10-06, 05:11 PM	I mainly meant is it fun for you players. Thus posting in the players section, not the DMs'.
DwarvinJedi 09-10-06, 05:11 PM	I like them so I don't have to send the same enemies at my PC's all the time, because if you have them invading an orc-infested area, there aren't as many possibilities As a player same reason
Righter8 09-10-06, 05:29 PM	Yes ... best kind of villain is a behind-the-scenes one. Works even better if they turn out to be somebody the characters already know. That's second best. It's been done a thousand times. THE Best, is when its that kobold who managed to escape the party at first level and has been manipulating them for 20 levels.
Salla 09-10-06, 05:33 PM	Oh yes. I get very bored with the formula one DM has, which is 'hand mission to PCs, have a fight, go home'. Three games so far, and they've all been like that. The fights haven't even been that impressive ... most of the fun has been from character interplay. I've even TRIED to give him hints about ways to go with it. We got jumped by a bunch of thugs, seemingly at random. "I wonder who they were working for?" I asked leadingly. We trail some crooks back to their hideout and beat them up handily. "I wonder why they stole all this stuff ..." I ask, hoping for a deeper meaning. Sigh.
DarkNick 09-10-06, 05:39 PM	As a player I don't usually like it. I hate being minipulated around, especially if you know it is happening. The evil dude is always just out of reach and you don't really know what they want. I like it when I can take control of a situation. But it can work if it is set up right. You know who the bad dudes are (at least you know the figure head - it is always interesting to find out the true manipulator was something else in the background), you can see some of the evil things they are doing (though you may not know why) and you get a chance to disrupt a lot of their operations i.e. make you feel like your achieving something even if you find out later that it was all in the bad guys plan anyway.
Salla 09-10-06, 05:49 PM	Having someone you can't touch makes it all the sweeter when you finally do get a chance to get your hands on 'em, too. Nothing is as galling and motivating as failure except perhaps frustration. :)