Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wtiger the theif 05-20-05, 05:43 PM	Im having a thief( iknow that its spelled wrong on my name i didnt remember the rules) as a character im wondering if these are good stats?(this i my first character so i wanthim to be good ability mod STR 15 -1 DEX 18 +2 CON 18 +3 INT 17 0 WIS 18 +2 CHA 12 +5 Thanks for your opinion
Orion Polaris 05-20-05, 05:55 PM	How the hell did you get such good stats?
Board_Rider 05-20-05, 05:57 PM	Actually thats way overpowered. You'll excel at almost everything. If these are legit rolls, assuming you used a rolling method, then I would tell you to not let this character die...you probably will never see stats like that again. Some Help STR 15 -1 (actually a +2) DEX 18 +2 (+4) CON 18 +3 (+4) INT 17 0 (+3) WIS 18 +2 (+4) CHA 12 +5 (+1) ------------ Move the WIS 18 to CHA, the CHA (12) to CON and your CON to INT. INT (17) can be your Wisdom ------------- Re-read your PHB..5 times if you must. Clearly you do not have a fundamental understanding on how to even create a character. If you want a PC like this to survive you need to know everything that this PC can do. How did you get these stats? Unless ABSOLUTELY legit (read: I saw each roll) I would not allow a PC like this at the table if I were DM.
Bael the Bard 05-20-05, 06:58 PM	Whats wrong with those rolls? I just created a Human cleric as a replacement pc for my bard that died. He's a lv 16 cleric and I rolled these stats STR 13 DEX 16 CON 17>18 INT 14 WIS 18>19>20 CHA 17>18 the >'s indicate what stat I increased at every 4th lv Yeah there not as good as your's but its the best I've ever rolled. Yeah my DM watched me roll and he's like damn :OMG! you've never been this lucky, but the average cr we face is around 5-7 higher than the party lv, and the dm really likes throwing demons/devils and lots of dragons at us so I guess I'll have a better chance at life now. oh and for your stats and race be a halfling cause rogue is the favored class and you get +2 dex but -2 str and +1 to all saves here arrange them like so. str 15>-2 racial 13 dex 18>+2 racial 20 con 18 int 18 wis 12 cha 17 for a rogue str is important but not crucial the main things you need are a high dex, high con cause of the d6 per lv, high int for Skill points and high cha if you want to max out ranks in use magic device, wis isn't real important to a rogue. Like the others said you'll never roll this good again have fun with this rogue if he lives he'll be a bad @ss
wtiger the theif 05-20-05, 09:42 PM	i just rolled the dice and thats what came up,beginners luck maybe? besides i did exactly what the rule book said "roll 4, 6 sided dice" did i do that wrong?:confused: i dont want to make enemies on my first day of playing just because i have a really good character(can that happen?)
captainswift 05-20-05, 09:58 PM	When you roll 4 dice, you drop the lowest. So if you roll 5, 4, 3, and 3, you drop one 3, having a final score of 12.
wtiger the theif 05-20-05, 10:12 PM	i always did that, this is my first character i read the rules 12 times because i didnt want to screw him up
SnowbearK 05-20-05, 10:51 PM	There does seem to be a difference between reading and comprehending the rules. I would suggest going back and understanding the rules this time. Dex then Int are the two best stats for a Rogue. Then, depending on what role you're taking, set your abilities appropriately. (hide/move silently/assassin) Stealth Bomber role = Dex, Int, Str, Con, Wis, Cha (Conman) Inside Job role = Dex, Int, Cha, Wis, Con, Str Trap Tech. role = Dex, Int, Con, Wis, Str/Cha (tied for importance) Pointman role = Dex, Int, Wis, Con, Str, Cha And so on and so forth.
wtiger the theif 05-21-05, 05:07 AM	i comprehended them right you rool the dice and take out the lowest number, what captainswift said and what the rules said(there the same)
gregm 05-21-05, 05:28 AM	I think what everyone is getting at is your stats are way too good to have come from 6 rolls only. Statistics just don't support it. For example to get one score of 18 you have 1/6 * 1/6 * 1/6 * 5/6 = 5/1296 which is about a 1 in 259 chance of ONE 18. And you have 3. Which works out to about 1 in 17million (if my working is correct). So I think either you rolled many times, have a monster as your class who gets positives in most stats (like half celestial) or you've got yourself some weighted dice....
The Man from Uncle 05-21-05, 05:37 AM	gregm, your maths can't be right. Rolling 3 sixes on 3 dice is 1 in 216 (6 times 6 times 6). Rolling 3 sixes out of 4 dice has to be less. I's still say those rolls are better than 1000-1. Oh i see what you did. You need to times that by 4. It should be 4/259. Which is 1/64.75. That makes more sense. Hang on that ain't right either...havn't got time to work it out. You are way off though.
gregm 05-21-05, 05:42 AM	Thats weird. I thought it was P(6) * P(6) * P(6) * P(6') (not a 6) I must have gone wrong somewhere.
SnowbearK 05-21-05, 06:29 AM	Specifically, my reference to comprehension was in the ability modifiers & placement of scores. While not likely, it is certainly not impossible to roll those numbers without cheating on the 4d6DL method. Having watched a player roll five 18s and a 17 on a 3d6-straight-down-the-line method before, as well as myself rolling 75 hp for a 5th level fighter with a 20 con, I understand that improbability != impossibility. Perhaps wtiger, you should be more specific? If you had indeed read the rules 12 times, you would have easily understood your own question without the need to post here about it. As well, you would have understood that the placement of the scores is sub-optimal. You would also have understood that the ability modifiers you typed are 100% wrong. If you meant you had read the rules on rolling attributes 12 times, then you might wish to clarify that in the future.
Fraser1986 05-21-05, 06:45 AM	Thats weird. I thought it was P(6) * P(6) * P(6) * P(6') (not a 6) I must have gone wrong somewhere. The odds you calculated are for rolling a 6 on dice number 1,2 and 3, then rolling something other than a 6 on dice number 4. In reality it is easier to get an 18 since all you need is three 6's, it doesn't matter which 3 of the 4 dice give you those 6's.
Merestil Haye 05-21-05, 07:21 AM	If you specify the results from each die you will find there are 1,296 different possible permuations. To get an 18 you need sixes on three of the four dice. 24 permutations will yield an 18, thus the chance of rolling one 18 are 24/1,296 or 1/54. I once got a set of stats as good as the ones Bael lists for his cleric in post 3; not for a PC but for an NPC who was the follower of an NPC the party were going to interact with; he appeared in one scene and that was it. The best set of stats I ever rolled, on a throwaway NPC. (For those who may wonder, I was running a Wheel of Time game. The NPC who received these stats was Aram - a minor character who, at the time, was following Perrin Aybara.)
GDwarf 05-21-05, 07:25 AM	Im having a thief( iknow that its spelled wrong on my name i didnt remember the rules) as a character im wondering if these are good stats?(this i my first character so i wanthim to be good ability mod STR 15 -1 DEX 18 +2 CON 18 +3 INT 17 0 WIS 18 +2 CHA 12 +5 Thanks for your opinion I know that your ability modifiers have been corrected already, I was just wondering how you thought you were supposed to get them, hell, you have 3 18s but one of them is +3 while the others are +2, and for some reason you gave a 12 a higher bonus then either a 18, 17, or 15 (Which is negative for some unknown reason). Just for next time, to figure out modifiers, assume that 10 is the base level, then, for every 2 points above 10 for that stat, you get +1. So for example: 12 CHA means that you get a +1 to CHA For every 2 points below 10 you get -1, so: 8 CHA means that you get a -1 to CHA. You cannot move these bonuses around, so if you got an 8 to CHA but a 12 to STR you cannot move your STR bonus to your CHA. Hope that helps. In summary of your character, He has above-average strength (far above average) He is more Dexterous then most spiders (IE, he can do next to anything with his fingers.) He can run for several miles, or drink Dwarven Ale for days, or have his arm chopped off and keep fighting He could out-play almost any Chess master with INT that high. Village elders for miles around get his advice, because he is wiser then all mortals. He is more charismatic then your average person, but not by a whole lot. Please note: The events described above are largely exaggerated, but they do give you a feel for what your character can do.
The Man from Uncle 05-21-05, 07:43 AM	Merestil Haye, you're quite right. 10 secs after shutting down I figured it out. I did 216/4 (4 chances with 4 dice that you'll get at least 3 sixes). But what is it to do that 3 times out of 6 rolls? Bollox if i can work it out after what i've drunk. I do remember that to get 18, 18, 16, 16, 14, 12 or better, is about 150 -1 . GDwarf is about right with his assesment of your skills. You are devastating.
Thelandrach 05-21-05, 08:10 AM	Thank you for providing me with an object lesson in why I will never allow random stat generation in my campaigns again. I have PCs in my campaigns with nearly that level of stats (yes, I watched them roll), and others with 12-15's in all their stats. Guess which PC's totally rule the campaign...
Bael the Bard 05-21-05, 09:18 AM	Hey he just rolled really really good, and its his first character it'll be a good experience for him to see what a good character is like, besides I would hate to see such good rolls get nerfed. Also do you have to be a rogue? You have 3 18's a 17 a 15 and a 12 with those rolls you could be anything. Rogues are a fun idea at first, but when the DM Sends the first BBEG at you the rogue'll probably die, because of a low ac. just my 2 CP :twocents:
Darkmatter20 05-21-05, 04:33 PM	I've seen better when I was DMing. using 4d6 and also taking four ones as an 18 (just did it for the hell was unlikely to change the probability much) A player got , 18, 18, 18, 16, 16, 16. Rolled right in front of me no rerolls or anything. In fairness he is a pretty decent player, doesn't even consider cheating and creates interesting characters and roleplays them fairly well. If you use random rolling and force someone to take a bad roll you can't complain when someone rolls well.
Gil Gwath 05-21-05, 07:30 PM	If you specify the results from each die you will find there are 1,296 different possible permuations. To get an 18 you need sixes on three of the four dice. 24 permutations will yield an 18, thus the chance of rolling one 18 are 24/1,296 or 1/54. Just to point it out, the possible permutations to get an 18 are only 21 6661 6616 6166 1666 6662 6626 6266 2666 6663 6636 6366 3666 6664 6646 6466 4666 6665 6656 6566 5666 6666 so you have 21/1296 possibilities to get an 18 with 4d6 drop lowest, ie 1/62 (1/61.71...)
totoro 05-21-05, 09:41 PM	i just rolled the dice and thats what came up,beginners luck maybe? besides i did exactly what the rule book said "roll 4, 6 sided dice" did i do that wrong?:confused: i dont want to make enemies on my first day of playing just because i have a really good character(can that happen?) I think you should reduce your abilities so your DM doesn't think you are a liar. The chances of you rolling 3 18's and 1 17 (or 18) on your first character is about 1 in 4 million. (And you also have a 15, which reduces the odds considerably more.) That means that in all likelihood you have rolled better for your first character than any person who has ever rolled up a first character. To put it differently, if everyone in Germany rolled up a character, yours would have a decent chance of being the best one in the country. So, even if you did roll it, don't risk making your DM distrust you. It isn't worth it. Your image as a person is far more important than the numbers you write down for your character.
The Man from Uncle 05-22-05, 12:44 AM	Gil Gwath, quite right. I completely forgot that one of the permutations provided 4 ways of making 18 and that there were not 1 permutation per 18. Well done for spotting that. Now, totoro has made quite a claim with 1.4 million+ to 1 against. Anyone got the time or means to work out the exact possibility of getting 18, 18, 18, 17, 15, 12? Cos I am fairly sure that totoro has over hit a bit there. I'll talk to my girlfriend, shes pretty hot at maths.
totoro 05-22-05, 01:23 AM	Gil Gwath, quite right. I completely forgot that one of the permutations provided 4 ways of making 18 and that there were not 1 permutation per 18. Well done for spotting that. Now, totoro has made quite a claim with 1.4 million+ to 1 against. Anyone got the time or means to work out the exact possibility of getting 18, 18, 18, 17, 15, 12? Cos I am fairly sure that totoro has over hit a bit there. I'll talk to my girlfriend, shes pretty hot at maths. Think of it this way: What are the odds you will roll in the 90th percentile 6 times in a row? .1 * .1 * .1 * .1 * .1 * .1 = 1 in a million. May as well add this: 4d6 drop lowest 3d6 add all --------------- ----------- roll occ.s %chance %chance occ.s ---- ----- ------- ------- ----- 3 1 0.08% 0.46% 1 4 4 0.31% 1.39% 3 5 10 0.77% 2.78% 6 6 21 1.62% 4.63% 10 7 38 2.93% 6.94% 15 8 62 4.78% 9.72% 21 9 91 7.02% 11.57% 25 10 122 9.41% 12.50% 27 11 148 11.42% 12.50% 27 12 167 12.89% 11.57% 25 13 172 13.27% 9.72% 21 14 160 12.35% 6.94% 15 15 131 10.11% 4.63% 10 16 94 7.25% 2.78% 6 17 54 4.17% 1.39% 3 18 21 1.62% 0.46% 1 ---- ------- ------- --- 1296 100.00% 100.00% 216 --- So, the probability of rolling 18, 18, 18, 17, 15, 12 (or better) is: 0.0162 * 0.0162 * 0.0162 * 0.0579 * 0.2315 * 0.6166 = 0.00000003514 or about 1 in 30 million. I eye-balled it at 1 in 80 million (the population of Germany), so I was off by a bit, but these are still fairly low odds. One more statistic: The chances are if you rolled a character every minute without stopping to eat, sleep, or anything else, it would on average take you about 60 years to roll this character.
The Man from Uncle 05-22-05, 01:42 AM	The point is though that you can roll them in any order. So its not a straight line calculation. But you've done the ground work.
The Man from Uncle 05-22-05, 01:48 AM	Hmm...i am not going to work this out before you. I don't even have a calculator.
totoro 05-22-05, 01:49 AM	The point is though that you can roll them in any order. So its not a straight line calculation. But you've done the ground work. No. The probability remains the same regardless of the order.
The Man from Uncle 05-22-05, 01:53 AM	I know, but there is one probablity per order. getting 18, 18, 18, 17, 15, 12 is 0.00000003514 but so is 18, 18,18,17,12,15 and every other combination. And as he could have rolled any one of them....that means that the probablity of getting 18,18,18,17,15,12 overall is greater than rolling it in just that order. I think there are 720 in total. So 720 times 0.00000003514 maybe?
The Man from Uncle 05-22-05, 01:54 AM	What i mean is that he could roll any one of a number of combination where each combination alone is 0.00000003514. That is right isn't it?
The Man from Uncle 05-22-05, 02:03 AM	If i got this right. If you took the chance of getting 18, 17 it would be... 1/61.7143 by 1/24 = 1/1481.1432 But as I could roll either 18, 17 or 17, 18 then thats 2 distinct possibilities that happen to be equal. I am on the right track aren't i?
totoro 05-22-05, 02:08 AM	What i mean is that he could roll any one of a number of combination where each combination alone is 0.00000003514. That is right isn't it? I see what you are saying. You are confusing the dice rolls (you have to consider how each die lands, in order, to establish probabilities for the roll) with the chance of obtaining a certain score. It doesn't matter what order the probabilities come in because you just multiply them together. For example, say you are rolling a d6 twice. You roll a '6' then a '5'. What are the odds you would roll a 6 and a 5 in either order? (1/6) * (1/3) = 1/18. The order doesn't matter. Same for rolling 18,18,18,17,15,12 or some permutation of that. The odds of rolling an 18 remain the same regardless of order, as do the odds of rolling a 17 or higher.
The Man from Uncle 05-22-05, 02:23 AM	You are quite right. I assumed that your original calculation determined the chance of rolling 18 then 18 then 18 then 17 then ect.... But thats not what you've done is it....? Ok, ok, give me a few mins to keep up. By the way where did you get the original table from?
totoro 05-22-05, 02:31 AM	You are quite right. I assumed that your original calculation determined the chance of rolling 18 then 18 then 18 then 17 then ect.... But thats not what you've done is it....? Ok, ok, give me a few mins to keep up. By the way where did you get the original table from? http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0001c&L=dnd-l&F=&S=&P=9311 Not sure if I'm supposed to post links, but you can also find a table by doing a google search with 4d6 + probability and find a link.
The Man from Uncle 05-22-05, 02:37 AM	Got it. I just did the rough chances of getting it in that order....some 1 in 432,848,476. (Calculator one my phone and the back of a used post-it note). And there are 720 different combinations of getting those numbers right? (probably wrong, post-it exercise again). And you don't just divide? Thats still 600,000 or so against. Bollox. I know you must be right, i just can't work out how.
The Man from Uncle 05-22-05, 02:39 AM	Thanks for that. I'll keep working on it.
totoro 05-22-05, 02:40 PM	Thanks for that. I'll keep working on it. Ack! My calculations are wrong (I noticed as I was waking up). Now I feel obligated to calculate properly... Any help from a statistician out there? I still think the odds are some multiple of million-to-one. Here are some starting points (approximations): Chance of rolling all 18's w/4d6, drop low = 1/50G (G=billion) Chance of rolling 5 18's = 6/5G - 1/50G ~ 1/1G Chance of rolling 4 18's = 15/700M - 1/1G ~ 1/50M (M=million) Chance of rolling 3 18's = 19/4M - 1/50M ~ 1/250K So, just getting 3 18's happens about 1 in every 200~250 thousand characters. The odds of rolling a 17 or 18 are about 3 times greater than rolling an 18. Based upon this (without calculating the odds directly), I would guess 3 18's and a 17 would happen about 1/15M. I know that may be off by quite a bit, but it is not a terribly unreasonable guess.
The Man from Uncle 05-22-05, 09:45 PM	Totoro, you are off somewhere. Just to roll 3 18's on the trot followed by a 17 is less than 6,000,000 to one against. 1/61.71 * 1/61.71 * 1/61.71 * 1/24 = 5,639,984.11 That means getting 3 18's and a 17 in six rolls must be a lot lower than your estimate. The more I think about it the more I am sure that the best way to work this out is to simply to determine the chance of rolling the stats in one order then multiplying it by the number of permutations. That gives about a 600,000 ball park figure to get these stats.
Kintaran 05-22-05, 11:05 PM	For the odds given, each permutation has the 3.5x10^-8 probability. The total probability of any of those permutations coming up is additive as opposed to multiplicative. So we get 720x3.5.10^-8. Which is still, admittedly, rather small. Though I recall one campaign in particular. Standard 4d6 drop, with the DM watching every single roll, with only one player generating stats at a time. We had one character with a score of 11 or less out of five. And that character had double 18s, 17, and a 16. The person with the lowest high stat got triple 17s and a 16. Everyone else had at least one 18. The set of dice we used now carry a special reputation after that. (I own them and use them for BattleTech now.)
The Man from Uncle 05-22-05, 11:58 PM	Kintaran - 'So we get 720x3.5.10^-8' So.....totoro was right with the 3.5*10^-8 and I was right by multiplying it by the permutations. Hmmm....need to think about this more. Good set of dice by the way.
totoro 05-23-05, 12:21 AM	Totoro, you are off somewhere. Just to roll 3 18's on the trot followed by a 17 is less than 6,000,000 to one against. 1/61.71 * 1/61.71 * 1/61.71 * 1/24 = 5,639,984.11 That means getting 3 18's and a 17 in six rolls must be a lot lower than your estimate. The more I think about it the more I am sure that the best way to work this out is to simply to determine the chance of rolling the stats in one order then multiplying it by the number of permutations. That gives about a 600,000 ball park figure to get these stats. I very well could be wrong. However, the case of 6 18's is easy (multiply the probability of rolling an 18 6 times). 5 18's is pretty straight-forward. There are 6 ways to roll 5 18's (ignoring the non-18). So, you add together the probabilities and subtract the probability of rolling all 18's (since it is duplicative). Following this logic (I'm pretty sure it's right), you can figure out 4 18's and 3 18's pretty easy, which I have done. The odds of rolling 3 or more 18's (in any order) is about 1 in a quarter million. For the 17, there are 3 slots remaining. You can calculate the odds in the same manner using a 17 instead of an 18. To roll 3 17's the odds are .04*.04*.04. (Note: You could do .06*.06*.06 for rolling 3 17's or 18's, but we have already taken care of the 18's, so I didn't do this.) The odds of rolling 2 17's is about 3x(0.04*0.04). In other words, there are 3 ways to roll 2 17's and the odds of each are 0.04*0.04. The chances of rolling 1 17 in 3 is about 0.04 + 0.04 + 0.04 minus the odds of rolling 2 or more (pretty small, so let's ignore). So, the odds of rolling a 17 for one of the remaining 3 abilities is about 12% (roughly 1/8). So, the 1-in-a-quarter-million 3 18's grows to about 1 in 2 million with a 17. My initial estimate was off. :D For the 15, there are only 2 slots remaining. Two ways to roll a 15 (or 16) and about 17% a pop. That comes to .17 + .17 - .17*.17. Just eye-balling it, that looks like about 1/3. So, the 1 in 2 million is 1 in 6 million. And you have about a 40~50% chance of getting a 12 or higher (excluding 15+). Maybe 1 in 15 million for 18, 18, 18, 17, 15, 12 (in any order). Maybe that's right. ;)
The Man from Uncle 05-23-05, 02:34 AM	You're right......I think we need a statistician. The probibility of rolling 3 18's on the trot really is as simple as cubing the chance of doing it once. That's 0.00000426 or about 235,000 to 1 against. I don't know how you've done it but you must have mixed up getting 3 18's out of 6 with just a straight 3 18's.