Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZiggZagg 02-07-07, 02:02 PM	Ok situation: My buddy is about to take up being DM (a relief for me in that I have been DMing for about the past year and a half in about 3 different campaigns) Now, when he heard all of our character choices, he practically wigged out and said we are all screwed because of what we picked. We have: Human Swordsage (me) Human Shadowcaster (Tome of Magic) Incarnate (Magic of Incarnum. He is using some race from this book as well, though I don't really know what it is) Elf Sorcerer Elf Scout He started saying how we are in trouble with no Cleric or anything...but we never play with one and everyone does alright. He also said we are gonna be in trouble without any real frontline...but most of those characters are made for mobility and can do it very well. I guess I just don't understand why he thinks we made such poor choices. Do you guys think we are really in that much trouble?
Morwen 02-07-07, 02:46 PM	Having no Cleric isn't really that much of a problem; you can just invest in some Cure Light Wounds wands for after-combat healing. As far as spellcasting and the skill-monkey type of character, you're pretty much covered On the other hand, you don't have any tank-type characters that can stand in the frontline and protect the low-hp casters. This is a bigger problem than not having any clerics, in my opinion. However, the DM should give you a chance to play through a few encounters with the group as-is. If it doesn't work out, that will be readily apparent if things don't go very well, and you can work with the DM to make fixes. And if it does work out, everyone in the group will be happy with their character choices :)
Puca 02-07-07, 02:46 PM	When your DM says, "Youre going to be in trouble with out a ___________," he is probably right.
tankschmidt 02-07-07, 02:47 PM	My players never want to be a cleric. The group I DMed for years had no cleric, and the group I am DMing now has no cleric. It has never been a problem. The reason why? As a DM, I tailor my adventures so that a cleric isn't necessary. Healing potions are plentiful. Helpful NPC clerics reside in the nearby cities. Dungeons include areas where it's easy to rest after a tough fight. Tailoring an adventure to a group without a frontline fighter isn't much different. A couple years ago I ran a game in which a thief with the swashbuckler kit was the frontline. How did it work? I selected encounters that would highlight the party's strengths instead of dwelling on their weaknesses. For example, without a heavily armored fighter and cleric, sneaking in the backdoor to the evil baron's Fortress of Doom is a lot easier!
dragonfire8974 02-07-07, 02:47 PM	this might be great. you really don't have someone that is going to just stand around and take hits, unless you build your swordsage that way, but that's not the fun way. it is going to be strange because every combat all the people are going to scatter to the four winds, and the SS being the melee character will take all the flak (i don't know anything about incarnum...) so you might be hurtin.....
Khal Khalash 02-07-07, 03:27 PM	Tell your DM he should be thankful that TWO of you didn't decide to play clerics. I'm DMing for a party of five with two clerics right now, and two clerics working together is hell on wheels.
trapspringer 02-07-07, 03:33 PM	Party inbalance is a self-correcting problem. Don't overthink D&D, it's just a game. There are no real consequences. Just roll with it.
Always-Late 02-07-07, 03:39 PM	Your opponents - i mean, the DM is probably going to find opponents that would be best dealt with if there were a tank. I suggest the Sorceror summon beasties. I think Incarnates can also tank if required, right, by picking the right soulmelds?
snakeman830 02-07-07, 04:08 PM	My only comment is that you guys will not do well if you face something that is immune to magic (any of the golems from the Draconomican for example) or something that is capable of a few powerful attacks and then is pretty easy to kill (anything with some powerful spell-like abilities useable 1/day). If it hits hard and fast, I doubt you'll all survive. But on the other hand, antimagic fields is not as much of a problem since it does nothing to the shadowcaster (I believe, I'll have to look again).
ShadowDragon8685 02-07-07, 04:17 PM	It's also possible he could plan for you to be facing hordes and hordes of the undead.
Matthew77 02-07-07, 04:19 PM	Balancing encounters is the DM's job, not the players' Play the characters that seem fun to you, and let the DM worry about constructing obstacles that are challenging, yet not overwhelming. Also, In game, your party will be well aware of it's strengths and weaknesses. When deciding on a course of action, pick adventure hooks that work for the party. Look for jobs that require stealth and mobility. Stay away from the ones that involve chopping through hordes of undead :) *Edit: Shadowdragon and I think alike.* If you are playing from a published module, then you might want to let the DM give you a quick overview of the set-up and then reconsider your characters.
Puca 02-07-07, 04:53 PM	There are two schools of thought in Dungeon Mastering: One is that the DM creates the adventure to suit the party; the other is that the DM creates an adventure at your CR and if you arent prepared for it, too bad for you. A DM who is telling you, "Youre screwed if you dont have a cleric," is probably the latter type.
DarkRhystar 02-07-07, 05:34 PM	My players never want to be a cleric. The group I DMed for years had no cleric, and the group I am DMing now has no cleric. It has never been a problem. The reason why? As a DM, I tailor my adventures so that a cleric isn't necessary. Healing potions are plentiful. Helpful NPC clerics reside in the nearby cities. Dungeons include areas where it's easy to rest after a tough fight. So you have Healy McHeal'o'matic standing by and rivers of healing potions flowing everywhere? :P Reminds of that guy over in the house rules forum who complained about everyone dumping Constitution and "solved" the problem by giving them bonus HP. You've fixed the negative of the problem without ever even touching the actual problem.
Fatalis_902 02-07-07, 05:39 PM	I've been in these kind of threads before, and I'll give the same bit of advice I always give. If the DM implies that you may want/need a cleric/<insert class here> in your party, it's probably a hint. If you are happy with your characters, and no-one is willing to change, make that known to the DM. If he is a good DM, he should be willing to modify the encounters/dungeons/encounter locations to suit a party without a(an) <insert class here>. If he is not such a good DM (not bad, necesarily, just not top notch at balance), you will face the encounters that he planned, cleric/<insert class here> or not. If, however, your DM has hinted that you might want a certain class, it is probably a good idea to work said class or its equivalent into the party somehow. Hirelings/cohorts, multi-classing, or even someone changing characters, can all be good ways to take any hints that the DM gives. You should consider figuring out why the DM believes you should have a cleric, and then think about your situation. Do that, and your game should go happily and long.
Matthew77 02-07-07, 06:01 PM	So you have Healy McHeal'o'matic standing by and rivers of healing potions flowing everywhere? :P Reminds of that guy over in the house rules forum who complained about everyone dumping Constitution and "solved" the problem by giving them bonus HP. You've fixed the negative of the problem without ever even touching the actual problem. Except there isn't even a problem here to "solve". Most encounter and CR guidelines assume the party has access to a typical amount of healing. If that healing doesn't come from within the party, having it come from outside is a perfect adjustment to keep the game fun. All the proposed adjustments (potions, NPC clerics, safe areas to rest) still cost the party resources in the form of gold, favors owed or time spent recuperating, so its not like they are just getting free healing.
Cold Napalm 02-07-07, 06:13 PM	If the DM says it, you generally are... That said, get rope trick as soon as you can. It lets you rest just about anywhere when you need to. This is something that is gonna be very important when you don't have a cleric. The fact you has 3 caster types and no tanks will make a lot of fights somewhat difficult as well.
Callista 02-07-07, 07:30 PM	You guys do need a tank. A Cleric isn't so important when you can use items to cure; but a tank is sorely needed here. How many of your mage-types can summon beasties to take the front-line damage for you? How sneaky is your party--can you ambush monsters and take them out before they have a chance to smash you? Is one or more of your mages good at crowd-control spells? Is Leadership--and thus tank-y cohorts--allowed? Are there spells you can use to turn a mage into a tank? I'm thinking specifically Tenser's Transformation; but there ought to be others... It should be possible, but it'll take strategy. I see your battles as being either won in the first three rounds or not won at all... Good luck.
DarkNick 02-07-07, 08:01 PM	I don't think party composition is that important. But then I am of the school of thought that says the DM adjusts the challenges to suit the party, or the party creates characters that fit the campaign (or they make do). Your real problem here is most likely DM inexperience, that's what it sounds like to me anyway. He may not know how to read things from the other side of the fence. Tell him that if he thinks the party will get trashed to tone it down till he gets the measure of you. The CR system is just a guideline, start simple, take it easy. His job is not to kill the party... all the same I see dungeon crawls in your future... If he is a new DM then maybe you guys should be nice to him - use core only, make a predictable party. When he gets the hang of it make up some fancier stuff...be patient with him, give him advise after a session, what went good, what went bad etc...
PhaedrusXY 02-07-07, 08:48 PM	You have a larger than average party, and from what I know of the classes, and what you've said, it should be a fairly mobile party that is good at dishing out damage. You will have to learn to play to these strengths, and not let the monsters/DM pin you down and beat on you. It is certainly possible to have a functional, successful party made up as you've described, but it will require you to be more tactically clever than the "average" party has to be. At least one character needs to heavily focus on "crowd control". I don't know much about the Incarnate or Shadowcaster, but I know the sorcerer could do a decent job at this. Every fight should involve corralling/disabling/confusing the enemies to keep them from focusing attacks on anyone, and making them easier for everyone else to pick off.
Lord_Panda 02-07-07, 10:02 PM	You can handle the lack of a frontline, especially if the sorceror invests in battlefield control. The problem with healing is that you aren't just missing a cleric: you have no one with cure spells on their class list, and no one with Use Magic Device as a class skill. That means that you have to use potions to heal. If you don't have weeks to lie around resting up, expect to spend at least 20% of your wealth on potions of Cure Light wounds. Also, the Shadowcaster is a very weak class. At fifth level, for instance, it lets you cast a grand total of five mysteries- a first level wizard specialist gets that many spells. Since a number of the mysteries are limited use or low-powered buffs, the fifth-level Shadowcaster gets to do something effective for just two or three rounds each day, and spend the rest plinking away with a crossbow. Fortunately, the creator of the class recognized this problem, and posted a fix on these boards. Personally, I think it's still a bit weak, but it isn't nearly as bad. A search for "shadowcaster" and "Mouseferatu" should turn it up.
LoNLinaChan 02-07-07, 10:56 PM	look no mater how people slice it parties should always consist of these two things pc's and fun. clerics are not required just advised in all my campaigns. i should know i wind up one every third game. as for high mobility that's all about the battle nothing says loving like shank and move. no party tank? i could have swore i saw a scout. put some good light armour on it and rolls them monsters. basically don't change you pc cause he's freaking he. sounds like a newb dm maybe you left him in the closet to long. just show him you can rolls with the punches and he'll calm down or geek you all with a broken encounter to prove a point. either way you won't know till you try
DarkRhystar 02-08-07, 01:08 AM	Except there isn't even a problem here to "solve". Most encounter and CR guidelines assume the party has access to a typical amount of healing. If that healing doesn't come from within the party, having it come from outside is a perfect adjustment to keep the game fun. All the proposed adjustments (potions, NPC clerics, safe areas to rest) still cost the party resources in the form of gold, favors owed or time spent recuperating, so its not like they are just getting free healing. The question of healing isn't the actual problem as I tried to explain above. The problem is that the Cleric isn't viewed as a viable character choice in the minds of the players which it should be (as should most classes but that's a whole other ballgame). Let's turn this around. Say the players had this opinion of melee warriors: They're all worthless and not worth playing. As a DM do you... A) Do nothing. B) Pit the characters against enemies where melee power would come in handy in an attempt to show them it's valuable. C) Eliminate all melee combat from your game. The above DM didn't pick A or B. He picked C.
Yokomohoyo 02-08-07, 01:40 AM	Im perssonaly in a campain now that has no clerics... We have a Ranger/Fighter, Fighter, Druid/Taxidermist (really a barbarian with a bear as a mantel hehehe), rouge, Sorc (me), Hexblade, sorc/fighter and we have done fine sor far... As long as your mage has some decent crowd control (not too much as to gimp is offence though) you should be fine.
Zumarai 02-08-07, 08:39 AM	A good DM can provide a great campaign/adventure for any party combination. I wouldn't mind trying my hand at DMing an all Expert party.
geekling 02-08-07, 08:48 AM	There are two schools of thought in Dungeon Mastering: One is that the DM creates the adventure to suit the party; the other is that the DM creates an adventure at your CR and if you arent prepared for it, too bad for you. A DM who is telling you, "Youre screwed if you dont have a cleric," is probably the latter type. Or the first type that just likes to see his players squirm and fret before the game starts.
ZiggZagg 02-08-07, 09:48 AM	Thank you for all your thoughts. It was my view as well that he could tailor the encounters to suit our unique kind of party. However, I will speak with him about it to make sure he is aware. He is not necessarily new to DMing, just doesn't do it that often and as such hasn't learned all the "tricks of the trade" just yet. As for some of your suggestions, keep in mind we are starting at level 1. So most of our tactics are going to be developing yet. I need to talk with the sorcerer to see what kind of caster he is thinking of making. He always has weird ideas. Once again, everyone, thank you
Zumarai 02-08-07, 10:12 AM	Once again, everyone, thank you Anytime, and hope the campaign blossoms into something beautiful. I would love to hear some feedback from you about playing a Swordsage (so my type of class).
DreadArchon 02-08-07, 01:06 PM	As a DM, I like unbalanced parties. It makes things interesting. (Now if only my party that lacks a single hit die above d6 would stop using "We kick down the door and start shooting." On every bloody encounter. After putting points into assassination abilities and me making assassin missions. Not that I'm bitter. :doh: ) As a player, I suggest starting with an unbalanced party (they're amusing) and killing off a few characters if the DM is a jerk about it. For example, the party for the game I'm a PC in had two clerics and a sorceror for a while (all level 6). We thought it was fun, but our DM threw multiple consecutive encounters at us in Red Hand of Doom that changed our minds. Three 90-hp Greenspawn Razorfiends that start in charge range per encounter? Twice a day? For three characters with d4 hit dice (Generic Classes), none of which have armor or more than a couple thousand gold worth of items, least of all protective items? Screw that! Two attacks of opportunity later we have a level 4 Ogre (DM doesn't understand ECL system ;) ) and an Expert 2/Warrior 4 Dwarven Waraxe specialist with 20 Con. The DM is rather unhappy with our party (especially after the "They resurrect you with the staff." "I refuse." part), but of course we're not terribly bothered by that.
ZiggZagg 02-08-07, 01:27 PM	Anytime, and hope the campaign blossoms into something beautiful. I would love to hear some feedback from you about playing a Swordsage (so my type of class). Unfortunately, my campaign has to either draw to a close or the party has to die, neither of which are likely to happen anytime soon. I am really anxious to play, and I have thought about killing them off just so we can start that campaign:evillaugh But I also really like my campaign and I like the story I have running. So only time will tell. But I will make sure to get back to you if and when the campaign starts. I can tell you that I have played a swordsage briefly in a little skirmish battle we had, and I went 2-1 against a player that made a wizard. It was a very fun class to play, and the guy playing the wizard makes the best wizards our group can come up with. So beating him was definately a showing of how much I love this new class :D
danielinthewolvesden 02-08-07, 02:11 PM	Having no Cleric isn't really that much of a problem; you can just invest in some Cure Light Wounds wands for after-combat healing. Who is going to use it?:P But this proves again that the so-called "CoDzilla" is only a wholly artificial construct of the CO boards. No one wants to play the heal-bot. Khal Khalash is the first DM I have heard on these boards complaining about TOO MANY clerics! Parties do not need a cleric so much as they need a divine caster. Druids, Favoured Souls, Spirit Shamans and even Bards can all replace a cleric. To a lesser extent, so can Paladins, Rangers and Dragon Shamans. To much lesser extent, any class with UMD as a class ability, such as the Warlock.
Archangel62 02-08-07, 02:46 PM	Who is going to use it?:P But this proves again that the so-called "CoDzilla" is only a wholly artificial construct of the CO boards. No one wants to play the heal-bot. Khal Khalash is the first DM I have heard on these boards complaining about TOO MANY clerics! Parties do not need a cleric so much as they need a divine caster. Druids, Favoured Souls, Spirit Shamans and even Bards can all replace a cleric. To a lesser extent, so can Paladins, Rangers and Dragon Shamans. To much lesser extent, any class with UMD as a class ability, such as the Warlock. Yes and no, I've run into cleric obscenities before, the main problem is that they are quite powerful, grotesquely strong actually, one problem with a cleric spending more time summoning than healing...and also almost killing the group because he decided that he'd rather fight than negotiate with the force led by the war trolls.