Are we totally screwed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are we totally screwed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bojangles_the_Barbarian
02-11-08, 11:09 AM Our previous game left my group at "renovating" a once abandoned keep, that had a "few miscreants" to take care of. So sayeth the townspeople at least. But as we made our way into the keep, we ran into what we only realized after a little bit of scufflage were red caps (MM3). Our PCs obviously oblivious to their exact stats and powers of pwnage at mere ECL 3, didn't take too much to take out the one lone red cap. Continuing onward, we came across an a room fill with them. 29 to be exact. 29 CR 2 Red Caps. Did I mention we're level 3? I thought so.

And they're talking of course about raiding the town. So we can't really just walk the other way. But anyway, we come up with tactics. Me being the changeling rogue, with fairly obscene bluff/disguise/social skills, decide to impersonate the one we killed, bring one at a time back into the other sections of the dungeon, thus thereby naming it the Kill Zone. It works surprisingly decent.

That happens, and the human wizard stays in the Red Cap room ready w/fireball wand, and elf swashbuckler down the hall with arrows, and they're both invisible thanks to the wizard. Combat happens; wizard gets lucky and drops 25 in two rounds with wand.

I head back to the Red Cap room, disguised as the Red Cap I was (Red Cap Bob) screaming along the lines of "OMG, THEY'RE HUNDREDS OF THEM!" *makes obscene bluff check, 30ish*, then I run back around the corner make commotion noises and re-disguise as an elf bluffing the fact he has a contingent of men around the corner and to drop the wizard, who they're trying to drag away. The GM doesn't know what I should roll between bluff or intimidate so I roll, and it would end up being a 25 bluff, or 24 intimidate (28 after we realize they're small, and remember the size bonus) so either way it is pretty decent.

He argues they wouldn't back down due to Red Cap society, despite I ask if they're immune to fear, and he says no... So they're don't get scared despite my amazing roll to do so, even though they should. Not saying they should soil themselves, but I would expect a reaction more than "BULL****!". Which, wasn't the exact line, but the GMs way of thinking.

I guess what I'm trying to bring up is;

What are your reactions, as GMs or Players, to using Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate, and just over all some of the charisma based skills creatively like that? Who do you think was in the right more?

Being a rogue, the disguise route was about the only ace I had up my sleeve.
Bojangles_the_Barbarian
02-11-08, 11:16 AM Also;

Wizard is held prisoner, but escapes, find a war troll NPC, elf and myself sneak back in, find wizard and troll, and run out of dungeon. He said we shouldn't have gone up against them in combat, though that was the only way he presented us to do. And then he "gave" us the war troll NPC, that was a prisoner, even though fighting is what we were doing... Our thinking though is, "Back to town; cold iron weapons; mother****ers at town are paying for this; Regroup; Red Caps DIE; 'few miscreants'... buggers".
Krusk
02-11-08, 12:18 PM Size bonus' generally don't apply to bluff/intimidate and just to skills noted in the small description.

Are you totally screwed? not really sounds like you've got it handled.

Sure it sucks that they don't believe you, but this is a pretty minor thing.

Maybe the DM gave them a +10 circumstance bonus to the check from their society, and a +10 to the roll due to the ammount present and then only rolled once for the group. They get +1 to sense motive. This means they only need to roll a 3 or a 4 to disbelieve. Sure you might get +5 due to believeability of the bluff. Now they need an 8 or 9. Odds are against you.

now in addition maybe the redcaps have some spies in the town who alert them specifically to "hey they are amassing a large force to kill you" so that they can be prepared. No spys reported, redcaps get another circumstance bonus. Your bluff is even less believeable, no +5 bonus.

a hint for you- ask to roll knowledge nature/whatever about their teeth.
Zombie_Babies
02-11-08, 01:37 PM A high Diplomacy, Bluff or Intimidate doesn't mean you "win". So you rolled some ungodly number that, were you a Bard, would garner extra planar attention. Guess what: If you tell me the sky is green I don't care what you roll. I will not believe you. The point? These skills do not always work. Sometimes things don't believe you. Sometimes you cannot shake their confidence. Sometimes no matter how good of a deal you offer, they just won't take it. This is a common misconception about these particular skills. There are always reasons these skills will fail. Always. Again, a high modifier means nothing to something that cannot be intimidated (Red Cap society, or whatever), a high Bluff cannot make someone believe that the sky is green when they see that it is blue (or whatever color of your campaign world) and a high Diplomacy will not stop a serial killer from adding your third toe of your left foot to his collection. That's just not how they work. If they were that good, they'd be Epic feats or PrC class abilities, not skills everyone can take. What you are looking for when you think they should work that way is something greater than even a spell effect. Hell, you get a save vs Charm, Dominate, Suggestion, etc. Why should a skill be better than that?

Are you screwed? Only if the basis of your character was to reprogram your enemies brains with your witty banter. If that's the case, then yes. If not, you'll be fine. Just keep up the good work with planning. So far, so good. Just don't expect miracles from talky skills. That's not what they are for. And Miracle is a ninth level spell.
Enmarnacu
02-11-08, 02:48 PM Zombie Babies, be nice. Sheesh.

Let me see if I have this right: You find a room with 29 opponents. A scheme is made that works to a degree. The wizard takes out 25 of said opponents. You try to bluff the remaining 4 into believing they're under attack by hundreds of enemies so the Red Caps should not harm the wizard whom they've gotten their hands on, correct?

I would say the first skill check as Bob would be a bluff, and the threat/ultimatum would be also a bluff. Each Red Cap would get a sense motive check, and if one of the four realizes what's up they could calm the others. So it could be tricky depending on what factors your DM gave to their roll, as Krusk has mentioned. Although I do think that given the amount of flaming death your level 3 party had dished out as well as your rolls they would have believed you and dropped the wizard, or at least have been confused for a round while trying to decide what to do.

If you're worried that your DM just went "Meh, I don't want him to profit from his talky-talk skills in combat." then ask him what they rolled for sense motive, what their bonuses were. Sure the DM may be a demi-god, but you can still question him.
Zombie_Babies
02-11-08, 03:37 PM Zombie Babies, be nice. Sheesh.

I was nice! I even stated at the end that if his intent was not to abuse any Dm granted leeway with the talky skills that he would be fine. I also applauded his group's ability to plan and handle a fight of that size. That's not nice? If he is one of those that thinks of the talky skills in the way I mentioned, then I wouldn't be nice at all. Since I can't know that from what's posted, I went with a little of both. But, if you think I wasn't nice enough:

To the OP:

I also applaud your use of the disguise skill and your quick thinking to lure the baddies away one by one. Once again, good thinking. And, again, if your purpose is not to abuse the talky skills then I think you will be just fine. That was a good example of using intelligent planning to overcome an incredibly difficult situation. If you think of those skills as an "Easy Button", however, I feel deeply sorry for your DM and group as a whole.

Hmm. Couldn't keep the whole thing nice. I tried. Just couldn't do it. :D
Bojangles_the_Barbarian
02-12-08, 11:20 AM Dooley noted, and I took that as constructive for the most part, so no worries. I'm not crying... but I am dying a little inside. But on a more serious note, I'm not using my "talky talk" skills as an Easy Button fix all solution. This being the very first game session we had, and realizing the overwhemling odds, I just knew out right taking them all out in a single blaze of glory of sneak attacking one for a mere 3d6 damage, would ultimately only amount to giving the rest of the group an extra round to run like hell out of the dungeon. Hence the use of my talky talk powers of thinkage.

Krusk has a point about hidden mechanics/bonuses they could have, but as Enmarnacu mentioned, it was only 4 at that point. Needless to say they were "Elders" though, and thus while they're smaller brethren could surely swarm attack/rape us into submission, it was nice to see additional creatures that could effortlessly fling a rock for +11 points of damage straight into the wizards face disabling said meaty hit point ***** PC- yeah sure. 'Nice' doesn't even come close.

But regardless. I know it isn't a godly power, but even with 4 elders (CR 7 I believe he said), if you take out all your "followers" in two rounds, I'm going to start to think "Hey, these guys have a little chutzpah, but I can't put my finger on it..". Also, we were able to figure out fairly soon that the teeth are pretty expensive, and I definitely plan on leaving all the buggers toothless after we deal with the "couple of miscreants".

Bastard townspeople... *mutter mutter*
Minathia
02-12-08, 11:56 AM Guess what: If you tell me the sky is green I don't care what you roll. I will not believe you.

What if I explaned to you some scientific reason as to why it appeared to be blue, but was in fact green, and were you in any other part of the world you'd be able to see it for yourself, and you were a simpleton and a fool for trusting your eyes without all the facts?

Anything at all can be lied about, however, no matter what if the sky above you was in fact blue and you could see it while I was talking to you nothing I could say would change your mind.

Also I once had a dm who would ingore things like one of the players making plans and recruiting people to spoil the food, and weapons of a huge army for weeks. Despite the fact that if it were done in real life the enemy army would be demoralized. Dms have to draw the line sometimes to make the story flow. It just happens like that.
Totentanz
02-12-08, 12:11 PM We call that railroading. Seriously, the DM needs to take the PC's actions into account. If it will totally derail the plot (as in the above army failing), then he should provide a solid explanation. Otherwise the characters might as well be in a video game with rooms that have fake doors. DnD is about being able to immerse yourself in a world, not playing a low-tech rail shooter.

That being said, you got most of the redcaps. I'd be satisfied that the skill worked. The only remaining question is why did your DM have you run into that many redcaps when you are level 3?

@ Zombie-Babies Actually, convincing people of unbelievable things is quite within the boundaries of the skill description; check it out. IRL, people have bought bridges and done all sorts of stupid, crazy stuff because a good con artist bent their ear.
kelvinaw273
02-12-08, 12:31 PM @ Zombie-Babies Actually, convincing people of unbelievable things is quite within the boundaries of the skill description; check it out. IRL, people have bought bridges and done all sorts of stupid, crazy stuff because a good con artist bent their ear.

Or a Londoner did ... <whistles nonchalantly across London Bridge>
Zombie_Babies
02-12-08, 12:43 PM @ Zombie-Babies Actually, convincing people of unbelievable things is quite within the boundaries of the skill description; check it out. IRL, people have bought bridges and done all sorts of stupid, crazy stuff because a good con artist bent their ear.

Ok. That's a fact. Now ask yourself this: What percentage of the population would/has been conned into doing something this outrageous? Not very many, right? It's possible to convince certain people of certain things. It should not work every time. Am I saying the DM Should never let this work or discount the roll in all situations? No. What I was trying to do was give examples of why this isn't an auto success type of thing. If the skill never worked there would be no reason to take it. I even played a character that used Glibness and Bluff a lot. If I went over the top (which did happen from time to time, the character was insane for a bit) the DM just didn't let it work. I have no problem with the proper use of these skills. The way the OP presented it in the first post led me to believe it was possible he was looking for the roll of his talky skill to trump common sense. He has since clarified that he was not, of course, but my first couple of posts were written with that in mind. Again, these skills are very useful, but they are not meant to get you out of every situation or get you whatever you want.
Bojangles_the_Barbarian
02-12-08, 01:55 PM Now ask yourself this: What percentage of the population would/has been conned into doing something this outrageous? Not very many, right?

A solid point, but only a half point. So here's a follow up question. It isn't what percentage of the population would not fall for something outrageous, but; What percentage of the population would have the skill and talent to do something as outrageous? Not very many. That's why there are adventurers in the world. To be extraordinary.

I agree really the only question left unanswered is more so the "Why 30 red caps vs 3 level 3 PCs?". To which, I don't know for sure. But like I said, we're retreating back to the town (only a couple miles away), getting lots of oil, and we're torching the little guys. Ho ho ho, now we have a War Troll.
Zombie_Babies
02-12-08, 02:04 PM A solid point, but only a half point. So here's a follow up question. It isn't what percentage of the population would not fall for something outrageous, but; What percentage of the population would have the skill and talent to do something as outrageous? Not very many. That's why there are adventurers in the world. To be extraordinary.

I agree really the only question left unanswered is more so the "Why 30 red caps vs 3 level 3 PCs?". To which, I don't know for sure. But like I said, we're retreating back to the town (only a couple miles away), getting lots of oil, and we're torching the little guys. Ho ho ho, now we have a War Troll.

Right. But it took both an incredibly accomplished con man (adventurer) and an incredibly gullible buyer (commoner?) to make that happen. It's still going to be an odd occurence, no matter how silver tongued you may be.

As for the rest of it? Burn one for me! :D
Bojangles_the_Barbarian
02-12-08, 06:47 PM Consider your request granted. The battle cry shall be "This one is for Zombie Babies!". Which I'm sure will grant me a free round as they stumble about from confusion, right?

The real fun of it though? Sure the xp will be fun, but 1k a tooth.

So lets see if we can break the game's economy from Red Cap teeth shall we?
Zombie_Babies
02-13-08, 09:22 AM Sounds like fitting retribution for being slammed with such an encounter. Good luck and have fun!
Drackthor
02-13-08, 05:00 PM Ho ho ho, now we have a War Troll.

I'd prefer a Sub-Machine gun. ;)
Bojangles_the_Barbarian
02-14-08, 06:29 PM I think you're right about that being a fitting justice. Thanks for the input, everyone.
I'd prefer a Sub-Machine gun. ;)
Yes, but if all our characters were John McClain how would the German terrorists have fun?
High Octane
02-15-08, 11:58 AM A high Diplomacy, Bluff or Intimidate doesn't mean you "win". So you rolled some ungodly number that, were you a Bard, would garner extra planar attention. Guess what: If you tell me the sky is green I don't care what you roll. I will not believe you. The point? These skills do not always work. Sometimes things don't believe you. Sometimes you cannot shake their confidence. Sometimes no matter how good of a deal you offer, they just won't take it. This is a common misconception about these particular skills. There are always reasons these skills will fail. Always. Again, a high modifier means nothing to something that cannot be intimidated (Red Cap society, or whatever), a high Bluff cannot make someone believe that the sky is green when they see that it is blue (or whatever color of your campaign world) and a high Diplomacy will not stop a serial killer from adding your third toe of your left foot to his collection. That's just not how they work. If they were that good, they'd be Epic feats or PrC class abilities, not skills everyone can take. What you are looking for when you think they should work that way is something greater than even a spell effect. Hell, you get a save vs Charm, Dominate, Suggestion, etc. Why should a skill be better than that?

This sums up why I dislike the social skill system in D&D.
Pathanus
02-15-08, 04:04 PM Ask your DM how you're supposed to use the Wand of Fireball if not to blast rooms full of creatures.

Your tactics seem pretty 'normal' to me, you cannot hope to fight the red caps in open war, once they swarm you the Fireball's will just kill everything without some sort of fire resistance or evasion.

Depending on what the whole goal is with bluffing, the Red Caps are not likely to surrender and would probably retreat to get reinforcements or fight to the death since they won't be afraid of most weapons (you should get a knowledge nature to find out some of their qualities). Depending on their initial reaction status a high enough bluff will at least let you suggest a reasonable course of action I'd say.
Drackthor
02-17-08, 03:54 AM This sums up why I dislike the social skill system in D&D.

Guys, we're talking about a game where we pretend to be elves who can summon fire from their palms while their best friend is slaying a 40-ton firebreathing lizard with mind bullets. I think this is the best the developers can do with their knowledge of social activity.
High Octane
02-18-08, 03:15 AM Guys, we're talking about a game where we pretend to be elves who can summon fire from their palms while their best friend is slaying a 40-ton firebreathing lizard with mind bullets. I think this is the best the developers can do with their knowledge of social activity.

I think the Drow being the only form of matriarchy known in D&D and being a bunch of psycho evil Brittany Spears type whacko ladies is a sure sign these guys didn't get out much.
Drackthor
02-23-08, 06:51 AM I think the Drow being the only form of matriarchy known in D&D and being a bunch of psycho evil Brittany Spears type whacko ladies is a sure sign these guys didn't get out much.

Not to mention Lolth's portfolio is pretty much Evil and Constantly Being That Time of The Month. I mean really.

"Hey, stop looking at me"
"Kill all the males that look at me"
"Hey guys, let's chill some time"
"I hate you guys"
"Come to my party guys"
"Who said to stop killing the males who look at me?"
"Why doesn't anyone liiiiike me"

Seriously. Make up your mind.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bojangles_the_Barbarian 02-11-08, 11:09 AM	Our previous game left my group at "renovating" a once abandoned keep, that had a "few miscreants" to take care of. So sayeth the townspeople at least. But as we made our way into the keep, we ran into what we only realized after a little bit of scufflage were red caps (MM3). Our PCs obviously oblivious to their exact stats and powers of pwnage at mere ECL 3, didn't take too much to take out the one lone red cap. Continuing onward, we came across an a room fill with them. 29 to be exact. 29 CR 2 Red Caps. Did I mention we're level 3? I thought so. And they're talking of course about raiding the town. So we can't really just walk the other way. But anyway, we come up with tactics. Me being the changeling rogue, with fairly obscene bluff/disguise/social skills, decide to impersonate the one we killed, bring one at a time back into the other sections of the dungeon, thus thereby naming it the Kill Zone. It works surprisingly decent. That happens, and the human wizard stays in the Red Cap room ready w/fireball wand, and elf swashbuckler down the hall with arrows, and they're both invisible thanks to the wizard. Combat happens; wizard gets lucky and drops 25 in two rounds with wand. I head back to the Red Cap room, disguised as the Red Cap I was (Red Cap Bob) screaming along the lines of "OMG, THEY'RE HUNDREDS OF THEM!" makes obscene bluff check, 30ish, then I run back around the corner make commotion noises and re-disguise as an elf bluffing the fact he has a contingent of men around the corner and to drop the wizard, who they're trying to drag away. The GM doesn't know what I should roll between bluff or intimidate so I roll, and it would end up being a 25 bluff, or 24 intimidate (28 after we realize they're small, and remember the size bonus) so either way it is pretty decent. He argues they wouldn't back down due to Red Cap society, despite I ask if they're immune to fear, and he says no... So they're don't get scared despite my amazing roll to do so, even though they should. Not saying they should soil themselves, but I would expect a reaction more than "BULL****!". Which, wasn't the exact line, but the GMs way of thinking. I guess what I'm trying to bring up is; What are your reactions, as GMs or Players, to using Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate, and just over all some of the charisma based skills creatively like that? Who do you think was in the right more? Being a rogue, the disguise route was about the only ace I had up my sleeve.
Bojangles_the_Barbarian 02-11-08, 11:16 AM	Also; Wizard is held prisoner, but escapes, find a war troll NPC, elf and myself sneak back in, find wizard and troll, and run out of dungeon. He said we shouldn't have gone up against them in combat, though that was the only way he presented us to do. And then he "gave" us the war troll NPC, that was a prisoner, even though fighting is what we were doing... Our thinking though is, "Back to town; cold iron weapons; mother****ers at town are paying for this; Regroup; Red Caps DIE; 'few miscreants'... buggers".
Krusk 02-11-08, 12:18 PM	Size bonus' generally don't apply to bluff/intimidate and just to skills noted in the small description. Are you totally screwed? not really sounds like you've got it handled. Sure it sucks that they don't believe you, but this is a pretty minor thing. Maybe the DM gave them a +10 circumstance bonus to the check from their society, and a +10 to the roll due to the ammount present and then only rolled once for the group. They get +1 to sense motive. This means they only need to roll a 3 or a 4 to disbelieve. Sure you might get +5 due to believeability of the bluff. Now they need an 8 or 9. Odds are against you. now in addition maybe the redcaps have some spies in the town who alert them specifically to "hey they are amassing a large force to kill you" so that they can be prepared. No spys reported, redcaps get another circumstance bonus. Your bluff is even less believeable, no +5 bonus. a hint for you- ask to roll knowledge nature/whatever about their teeth.
Zombie_Babies 02-11-08, 01:37 PM	A high Diplomacy, Bluff or Intimidate doesn't mean you "win". So you rolled some ungodly number that, were you a Bard, would garner extra planar attention. Guess what: If you tell me the sky is green I don't care what you roll. I will not believe you. The point? These skills do not always work. Sometimes things don't believe you. Sometimes you cannot shake their confidence. Sometimes no matter how good of a deal you offer, they just won't take it. This is a common misconception about these particular skills. There are always reasons these skills will fail. Always. Again, a high modifier means nothing to something that cannot be intimidated (Red Cap society, or whatever), a high Bluff cannot make someone believe that the sky is green when they see that it is blue (or whatever color of your campaign world) and a high Diplomacy will not stop a serial killer from adding your third toe of your left foot to his collection. That's just not how they work. If they were that good, they'd be Epic feats or PrC class abilities, not skills everyone can take. What you are looking for when you think they should work that way is something greater than even a spell effect. Hell, you get a save vs Charm, Dominate, Suggestion, etc. Why should a skill be better than that? Are you screwed? Only if the basis of your character was to reprogram your enemies brains with your witty banter. If that's the case, then yes. If not, you'll be fine. Just keep up the good work with planning. So far, so good. Just don't expect miracles from talky skills. That's not what they are for. And Miracle is a ninth level spell.
Enmarnacu 02-11-08, 02:48 PM	Zombie Babies, be nice. Sheesh. Let me see if I have this right: You find a room with 29 opponents. A scheme is made that works to a degree. The wizard takes out 25 of said opponents. You try to bluff the remaining 4 into believing they're under attack by hundreds of enemies so the Red Caps should not harm the wizard whom they've gotten their hands on, correct? I would say the first skill check as Bob would be a bluff, and the threat/ultimatum would be also a bluff. Each Red Cap would get a sense motive check, and if one of the four realizes what's up they could calm the others. So it could be tricky depending on what factors your DM gave to their roll, as Krusk has mentioned. Although I do think that given the amount of flaming death your level 3 party had dished out as well as your rolls they would have believed you and dropped the wizard, or at least have been confused for a round while trying to decide what to do. If you're worried that your DM just went "Meh, I don't want him to profit from his talky-talk skills in combat." then ask him what they rolled for sense motive, what their bonuses were. Sure the DM may be a demi-god, but you can still question him.
Zombie_Babies 02-11-08, 03:37 PM	Zombie Babies, be nice. Sheesh. I was nice! I even stated at the end that if his intent was not to abuse any Dm granted leeway with the talky skills that he would be fine. I also applauded his group's ability to plan and handle a fight of that size. That's not nice? If he is one of those that thinks of the talky skills in the way I mentioned, then I wouldn't be nice at all. Since I can't know that from what's posted, I went with a little of both. But, if you think I wasn't nice enough: To the OP: I also applaud your use of the disguise skill and your quick thinking to lure the baddies away one by one. Once again, good thinking. And, again, if your purpose is not to abuse the talky skills then I think you will be just fine. That was a good example of using intelligent planning to overcome an incredibly difficult situation. If you think of those skills as an "Easy Button", however, I feel deeply sorry for your DM and group as a whole. Hmm. Couldn't keep the whole thing nice. I tried. Just couldn't do it. :D
Bojangles_the_Barbarian 02-12-08, 11:20 AM	Dooley noted, and I took that as constructive for the most part, so no worries. I'm not crying... but I am dying a little inside. But on a more serious note, I'm not using my "talky talk" skills as an Easy Button fix all solution. This being the very first game session we had, and realizing the overwhemling odds, I just knew out right taking them all out in a single blaze of glory of sneak attacking one for a mere 3d6 damage, would ultimately only amount to giving the rest of the group an extra round to run like hell out of the dungeon. Hence the use of my talky talk powers of thinkage. Krusk has a point about hidden mechanics/bonuses they could have, but as Enmarnacu mentioned, it was only 4 at that point. Needless to say they were "Elders" though, and thus while they're smaller brethren could surely swarm attack/rape us into submission, it was nice to see additional creatures that could effortlessly fling a rock for +11 points of damage straight into the wizards face disabling said meaty hit point ***** PC- yeah sure. 'Nice' doesn't even come close. But regardless. I know it isn't a godly power, but even with 4 elders (CR 7 I believe he said), if you take out all your "followers" in two rounds, I'm going to start to think "Hey, these guys have a little chutzpah, but I can't put my finger on it..". Also, we were able to figure out fairly soon that the teeth are pretty expensive, and I definitely plan on leaving all the buggers toothless after we deal with the "couple of miscreants". Bastard townspeople... mutter mutter
Minathia 02-12-08, 11:56 AM	Guess what: If you tell me the sky is green I don't care what you roll. I will not believe you. What if I explaned to you some scientific reason as to why it appeared to be blue, but was in fact green, and were you in any other part of the world you'd be able to see it for yourself, and you were a simpleton and a fool for trusting your eyes without all the facts? Anything at all can be lied about, however, no matter what if the sky above you was in fact blue and you could see it while I was talking to you nothing I could say would change your mind. Also I once had a dm who would ingore things like one of the players making plans and recruiting people to spoil the food, and weapons of a huge army for weeks. Despite the fact that if it were done in real life the enemy army would be demoralized. Dms have to draw the line sometimes to make the story flow. It just happens like that.
Totentanz 02-12-08, 12:11 PM	We call that railroading. Seriously, the DM needs to take the PC's actions into account. If it will totally derail the plot (as in the above army failing), then he should provide a solid explanation. Otherwise the characters might as well be in a video game with rooms that have fake doors. DnD is about being able to immerse yourself in a world, not playing a low-tech rail shooter. That being said, you got most of the redcaps. I'd be satisfied that the skill worked. The only remaining question is why did your DM have you run into that many redcaps when you are level 3? @ Zombie-Babies Actually, convincing people of unbelievable things is quite within the boundaries of the skill description; check it out. IRL, people have bought bridges and done all sorts of stupid, crazy stuff because a good con artist bent their ear.
kelvinaw273 02-12-08, 12:31 PM	@ Zombie-Babies Actually, convincing people of unbelievable things is quite within the boundaries of the skill description; check it out. IRL, people have bought bridges and done all sorts of stupid, crazy stuff because a good con artist bent their ear. Or a Londoner did ... <whistles nonchalantly across London Bridge>
Zombie_Babies 02-12-08, 12:43 PM	@ Zombie-Babies Actually, convincing people of unbelievable things is quite within the boundaries of the skill description; check it out. IRL, people have bought bridges and done all sorts of stupid, crazy stuff because a good con artist bent their ear. Ok. That's a fact. Now ask yourself this: What percentage of the population would/has been conned into doing something this outrageous? Not very many, right? It's possible to convince certain people of certain things. It should not work every time. Am I saying the DM Should never let this work or discount the roll in all situations? No. What I was trying to do was give examples of why this isn't an auto success type of thing. If the skill never worked there would be no reason to take it. I even played a character that used Glibness and Bluff a lot. If I went over the top (which did happen from time to time, the character was insane for a bit) the DM just didn't let it work. I have no problem with the proper use of these skills. The way the OP presented it in the first post led me to believe it was possible he was looking for the roll of his talky skill to trump common sense. He has since clarified that he was not, of course, but my first couple of posts were written with that in mind. Again, these skills are very useful, but they are not meant to get you out of every situation or get you whatever you want.
Bojangles_the_Barbarian 02-12-08, 01:55 PM	Now ask yourself this: What percentage of the population would/has been conned into doing something this outrageous? Not very many, right? A solid point, but only a half point. So here's a follow up question. It isn't what percentage of the population would not fall for something outrageous, but; What percentage of the population would have the skill and talent to do something as outrageous? Not very many. That's why there are adventurers in the world. To be extraordinary. I agree really the only question left unanswered is more so the "Why 30 red caps vs 3 level 3 PCs?". To which, I don't know for sure. But like I said, we're retreating back to the town (only a couple miles away), getting lots of oil, and we're torching the little guys. Ho ho ho, now we have a War Troll.
Zombie_Babies 02-12-08, 02:04 PM	A solid point, but only a half point. So here's a follow up question. It isn't what percentage of the population would not fall for something outrageous, but; What percentage of the population would have the skill and talent to do something as outrageous? Not very many. That's why there are adventurers in the world. To be extraordinary. I agree really the only question left unanswered is more so the "Why 30 red caps vs 3 level 3 PCs?". To which, I don't know for sure. But like I said, we're retreating back to the town (only a couple miles away), getting lots of oil, and we're torching the little guys. Ho ho ho, now we have a War Troll. Right. But it took both an incredibly accomplished con man (adventurer) and an incredibly gullible buyer (commoner?) to make that happen. It's still going to be an odd occurence, no matter how silver tongued you may be. As for the rest of it? Burn one for me! :D
Bojangles_the_Barbarian 02-12-08, 06:47 PM	Consider your request granted. The battle cry shall be "This one is for Zombie Babies!". Which I'm sure will grant me a free round as they stumble about from confusion, right? The real fun of it though? Sure the xp will be fun, but 1k a tooth. So lets see if we can break the game's economy from Red Cap teeth shall we?
Zombie_Babies 02-13-08, 09:22 AM	Sounds like fitting retribution for being slammed with such an encounter. Good luck and have fun!
Drackthor 02-13-08, 05:00 PM	Ho ho ho, now we have a War Troll. I'd prefer a Sub-Machine gun. ;)
Bojangles_the_Barbarian 02-14-08, 06:29 PM	I think you're right about that being a fitting justice. Thanks for the input, everyone. I'd prefer a Sub-Machine gun. ;) Yes, but if all our characters were John McClain how would the German terrorists have fun?
High Octane 02-15-08, 11:58 AM	A high Diplomacy, Bluff or Intimidate doesn't mean you "win". So you rolled some ungodly number that, were you a Bard, would garner extra planar attention. Guess what: If you tell me the sky is green I don't care what you roll. I will not believe you. The point? These skills do not always work. Sometimes things don't believe you. Sometimes you cannot shake their confidence. Sometimes no matter how good of a deal you offer, they just won't take it. This is a common misconception about these particular skills. There are always reasons these skills will fail. Always. Again, a high modifier means nothing to something that cannot be intimidated (Red Cap society, or whatever), a high Bluff cannot make someone believe that the sky is green when they see that it is blue (or whatever color of your campaign world) and a high Diplomacy will not stop a serial killer from adding your third toe of your left foot to his collection. That's just not how they work. If they were that good, they'd be Epic feats or PrC class abilities, not skills everyone can take. What you are looking for when you think they should work that way is something greater than even a spell effect. Hell, you get a save vs Charm, Dominate, Suggestion, etc. Why should a skill be better than that? This sums up why I dislike the social skill system in D&D.
Pathanus 02-15-08, 04:04 PM	Ask your DM how you're supposed to use the Wand of Fireball if not to blast rooms full of creatures. Your tactics seem pretty 'normal' to me, you cannot hope to fight the red caps in open war, once they swarm you the Fireball's will just kill everything without some sort of fire resistance or evasion. Depending on what the whole goal is with bluffing, the Red Caps are not likely to surrender and would probably retreat to get reinforcements or fight to the death since they won't be afraid of most weapons (you should get a knowledge nature to find out some of their qualities). Depending on their initial reaction status a high enough bluff will at least let you suggest a reasonable course of action I'd say.
Drackthor 02-17-08, 03:54 AM	This sums up why I dislike the social skill system in D&D. Guys, we're talking about a game where we pretend to be elves who can summon fire from their palms while their best friend is slaying a 40-ton firebreathing lizard with mind bullets. I think this is the best the developers can do with their knowledge of social activity.
High Octane 02-18-08, 03:15 AM	Guys, we're talking about a game where we pretend to be elves who can summon fire from their palms while their best friend is slaying a 40-ton firebreathing lizard with mind bullets. I think this is the best the developers can do with their knowledge of social activity. I think the Drow being the only form of matriarchy known in D&D and being a bunch of psycho evil Brittany Spears type whacko ladies is a sure sign these guys didn't get out much.
Drackthor 02-23-08, 06:51 AM	I think the Drow being the only form of matriarchy known in D&D and being a bunch of psycho evil Brittany Spears type whacko ladies is a sure sign these guys didn't get out much. Not to mention Lolth's portfolio is pretty much Evil and Constantly Being That Time of The Month. I mean really. "Hey, stop looking at me" "Kill all the males that look at me" "Hey guys, let's chill some time" "I hate you guys" "Come to my party guys" "Who said to stop killing the males who look at me?" "Why doesn't anyone liiiiike me" Seriously. Make up your mind.