Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LordofIllusions 10-13-04, 10:51 AM	There are hundreds of excellent D&D players out there and to them I tip my hat. :tiphat: However there are also a good number of whiney players that seem to whine over every little thing, whether it is their character(They want to be able to start with X number of magic items, they want to have all 18's for ability scores, etc.), blaming the game for every little thing(I just died 3rd edition must be broken, I want to play a "sneaky fighter" so they should have "sneaky fighter" as a base class but they don't so D&D is broken, etc.), get mad when the other players outshine their character(Why did he kill the giant that was about to kill me, I wanted to kill it!!!!! I should be the star! I hate this game!), or just being plain annoying(Not only to the DM but to the other players as well.). You meet them from time-to-time in gaming sessions. Name some of the things you have seen whiney players gripe about or if you happen to be a whiney player name some of the things you gripe about. ~~~
HidroliX 10-13-04, 11:30 AM	In my party is one... He is a cleric level 4 almost 5 The campain is about roleplaying your character! So when some kills another being the DM has to say to him: you are cleric of healing and respect how can you allow someone just to go and slaughter everyone?! I get XP! the only thing he says when he get damage is: cant i make a fort and reflex save against that! Why is my goddes not helping you? why cant i do inflict wounds spells?? when he dies with his cleric it was like... Damn if i would be hit with a sword i would still be alive!!! stupidddd.... Now he is a fighter and he has the.. Character Classes This document contains some unique character classes in the Shadowlands campaign. Document last modified: 28-jun-2004 Character class: Heavy Weapon Fighter Submitted by: Uwe GAME RULE INFORMATION Abilities: Strength is especially important for heavy weapon fighters because it improves their melee attack and damage rolls. Constitution is important for giving the heavy weapon fighter lots of hit points which it will need with the lack of armor. ALIGNMENT: Any. HIT DIE: d12. CLASS SKILLS: Heavy weapon fighters use all skills that use strength and gain 1 point in that skill each level. SKILL POINTS AT 1ST LEVEL: (2 + int modifier) x4. SKILL POINTS AT EACH ADDITIONAL LEVEL: 2 + int modifier. CLASS FEATURES: STR +4 CON +2 Die Hard, Endurance, Run. WEAPON AND ARMOR PROFICIENCY: A heavy weapon fighter is proficient with two Weapons chosen from the player handbook. These weapons are large weapons (see table 7-4 page 114). Treat normal rules for these weapons accordingly except for any penalties on to hit roles and weight times 3. The heavy weapon fighter is not proficient with any armor or shields and these proficiency cant be chosen. BONUS FEATS: A heavy weapon fighter gains feats at (1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 17th, 19th and 20th level. A heavy weapon fighter must still meet the prerequisites for the feats, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. LEVEL---BAB--------FORT--REF--WILL---SPECIAL---AC--- UNARMORED BONUS SPEED BONUS 1 +2------------- +4 +2 +2-- Bonus feat -- +1 +0ft. 2 +4------------ +4 +2 +2 -- Bonus feat -- +1 +0ft. 3 +6---------- +5 +3 +3 -- --- -- +2 +0ft. 4 +8---------- +5 +3 +3-- Bonus feat -- +2 +0ft. 5 +10--------- +6 +3 +3 -- Bonus feat-- +3 +10ft. 6 +12/+2------ +6 +4 +4 ---------- +3 +10ft. 7 +14/+4 ----- +7 +4 +4 -- Bonus feat -- +4 +10ft. 8 +16/+6 ----- +7 +4 +4 -- Bonus feat -- +4 +10ft. 9 +18/+8------ +8 +5 +5 -- -------- +5 +20ft. 10 +20/+10----- +8 +5 +5 -- Bonus feat -- +5 +20ft. 11 +22/+12/+2--- +9 +5 +5 -- Bonus feat -- +6 +20ft. 12 +24/+14/+4 --- +9 +6 +6 -- -- +6 +20ft. 13 +26/+16/+6 --- +10 +6 +6 -- Bonus feat --+7 +30ft. 14 +28/+18/+8 --- +10 +6 +6 -- Bonus feat -- +7 +30ft. 15 +30/+20/+10--- +11 +7 +7 -- -- +8 +30ft. 16 +32/+22/+12/+2--- +11 +7 +7 -- Bonus feat -- +8 +30ft. 17 +34/+24/+14/+4--- +12 +7 +7 -- Bonus feat -- +9 +40ft. 18 +36/+26/+16/+6--- +12 +8 +8 -- -- +9 +40ft. 19 +38/+28/+18/+8 --- +13 +8 +8 -- Bonus feat -- +10 +40ft. 20 +40/+30/+20/+10 --- +13 +8 +8 -- Bonus feat -- +10 +40ft. (sorry if you cant see it good: then go to http://www.sanraal.nl/shadowlands/shadowlands.htm then select new feats skills--> then choose character classes!) THIS!! he can hold huge weapons with a human player... this is just pathetic.. look at the bas ammount of feats bonus speed and the natural armor.. the saves are.... well you can see it! with his bab he could prob take any feat with bab prereq at level 4
Thorak 10-13-04, 11:47 AM	Well, for starters, that "heavy weapon fighter" is a joke, right? Double the best possible BAB, more feats than a Fighter gets (when that's ALL he gets), and unarmored AC bonuses and speed bonuses? AND a built-in Improved Monkey Grip? That redefines "munchkin" in all kinds of ways. Mostly in the "has no earthly idea what he's doing or what the term 'game balance' means" kind of way.
Kakerate 10-13-04, 11:54 AM	I have the problem of players always whining about exp. I mean really it should go without saying but exp is not a reason to do anything in D&D. I think it is uncreative to go on an adventure just for exp. I might even expect a player to say they wont go on an exp high quest just because the want to roleplay. I think that the players can start an adventure sometimes all by their actions. I dont think that it is really a problem of whiny players as much as munchkins. You can ignore a whiny player to a great extent and when you do listen you can give that player roleplaying advice that will help them overcome whatever their whining about. Sure it takes up time but when they whine about the rules just say what my physics/chemistry instructer(Jim Grady, Mr Grady to you) says," Its in the book". Those are the only words he ever said when you asked a question on an assignment. Now after it was graded he usually had more commentary, but that after it was graded stuff should be said by DM at the end of a session or out of session entirely.
meabolex 10-13-04, 12:05 PM	I'll admit it. . . I can be a whiney player. It's not often. . . and I don't typically do it when either I screw up or the DM screws up. I usually whine when my luck turns to garbage. When I roll constant 1's over and over. When I roll a 1 on an extremely important saving throw. When, despite my extensive preparations, my plans are ruined just by pure luck alone. I think part of the problem is that I don't want to see my character screwed over for basically no reason. I can see him getting trashed because of some external problem. . . but bad luck is by far the worst thing and gets me literally angry. I have to go cool down when too much hits me in a row. I may not be that bad. . . maybe I'm short-changing myself. But, I often think of myself as whiney after the session -- reflecting on my behavior and my obviously apparent dissatisfaction with the game. I'm getting better over time. . . it's not like this happens always. One time I was playing a level 7 melee sorcerer in combat with an annis hag. The hag had SR 19. That means, to penetrate the SR, I had to roll a 12 or better -- a 45% chance of success. Our party battled the thing for a while -- she used her fog cloud to delay the party archer substantially. She quickly took out the party cleric with a few lucky hits. During the course of this fight, I tried to cast 4-5 touch spells on this annis. Every single one of them failed the SR check. I could not roll a 12 or better on any of the stupid SR checks. The annis ended up taking out the party (we were "captured," but it was essentially a TPK in my mind). I was informed after the session that if any of the SR checks were successful, the annis would have lost -- she had only a couple of hp remaining when she took out the party. That's the kind of thing that can get me whiney.
monkeywrench 10-13-04, 12:47 PM	Yeah, I got one. He's a Rogue/Shadowdancer. Everytime he takes damage, he goes something like "What? Ugh, that is such Bullsh*t" His first action in combat is ALWAYS, without fail, "I hide" DM: "You're in the middle of a well-lit hallway. There aren't any shadows. There's nothing to hide behind. The creatures are looking right AT you. You can't hide in those conditions! PC: "But, but...can I hide in my own shadow?" DM: :nonono: Some of you have probably read my thread about the problem with my pseudodragon cohort. This one's from that same scenario. There were other prisioners in the same area where we freed the half-dragon elf. This guy (Out of Character, I should mention) "felt really bad for them" and wanted us all to try and free them before we teleported out. Me: "Uh, the mission was to get in, free the elf, get out. I don't have enough Teleports to go back and forth and free EVERYONE." Him: "But, but...we can't just leave them here!" Other PC: "Why not? They'll have a better shot in the arena than if we free them and leave them to escape on their own, when the Hobgoblins will slaughter them all!" He decided he was going to remain behind and try to free some of them and get out on his own. My cohort simply fled for the exit. They both got captured.
Mister Mayhem 10-13-04, 01:23 PM	Heck, if I think the DM is shafting me by glossing over something I worked hard to earn, or is central to my character concept, you bet I'll complain. If I've based my character concept around being incredibly hard to hit, for example, and the DM obviously plucks some number out of his behind just so his low level NPC thugs can land a blow, I'll surely say something. Does that make me whiney?
EatFlan 10-13-04, 02:20 PM	MonkeyWrench i feel your pain. I had (i havn't played in 2 months...dunno if i will start again) a PC in my campaign who had the Shade template. He would FLIP out if it wasn't night time or dusky out. I mean...hello...huge ****ing ball of fire called the sun. So just to stop the whining I let them only move around during the night. It was lame, and blew. I hate hate hate whiney players. PS: I HATE, AC freak builds...they are idiotic and ruin play.
Rashiko 10-13-04, 02:35 PM	If you hate AC freak builds then just ifnd a way to break them from it. Make area of effect spells. Shoot arrows so much that it's a reflex save instead of touch attacks. Eventually, they'll back down and pick something else. Or you can just deal with it and complain to yourself. :D
Krelios 10-13-04, 02:52 PM	AC-freak builds delight me as a DM. There's no way to do that without making yourself vulnerable in other areas (usually very vulnerable). Same goes with just about any build in the core rules. Besides, a defense-oriented PC is usually much more about working with the party than an offense-oriented one (just a generalize, but it's pretty common).
HidroliX 10-13-04, 03:08 PM	I am usually happy with AC builds those players think abou there party(most of the time) I like it and most of the time i reward him for that :) I send in a NPC that has problems with hitting him but yeah... not just 1 NPC!:D But hey he loves it when i say: He tries to hit you but your enormous armor is blocking his sword!
EatFlan 10-13-04, 03:16 PM	98% of the AC freaks i see are munchkins, and i even played with one kid like that. He was 1 level in about 5-6 prestige classes and it was horrid. By lvl 12 his AC could go into the low 40's and it was unarmored AC that went towards his touch attack even. He also combined in the insane saves. it was retarded, and it def. stopped the suspension of belief that is a part of a good RP. "oh wait...that didn't touch you either...wow...amazing." everyone knew it was cheese and dumb, and just to make it a challange for that kid the encounters had to be retardedly tailored to the point that it was a serious death threat to every other PC whenever there was a medium dif. battle. I would rather have an offensive nut, than the unbreakable defense. I can see a barbarian going absolutely nuts and ripping my BBEG's head off with his toes, but I can't see some 1/2 elf dumb*** dodging everything on the planet.
Kitt-su 10-13-04, 04:36 PM	I don't like attack/defense orientated characters. I like characters with hella long backstories to take up my time. But back to the matter at hand! Sometimes I can be a little :censored: about being a bard. Everyones all like "Don't be a bard, bards suck" and then I play one. Then some people don't count my +1, and I say "Hey +1!" and they're like alright bards rock. Until I make another one. Then theres this guy we used to play with whos character was a lizardfolk, with a british accent. No no... let it sink in. That totally annoyed everyone. We picked on him, alot, in and out of game, we shouldn't have but we did. He finally got kicked out when he left a plate of chicken wing bones under the couch (The DM's baby and/or puppy could have choked to death on them).
Gryllmyre 10-13-04, 05:38 PM	The worst whining I saw from a player came from actually the best DM I had. I ruled something wasn't doable in the course of a round and he folded his arms and refused to play. He also wanted to go into Greyhawk and kill the head paladin because he failed to change the alignment of a beyond-artifact sword. There are plenty of other bad habits in players, but whining, fortunately, hasn't been a big problem in my sessions. I've had plenty of my share of social disconnectedness, obnoxiousness, caring more about just wasting my time, overall disjointedness, etc. But, that's another topic. As far as me being a whiny player, I'll dispute a ruling only if I think that maybe the DM is honestly mistaken in how the rules are being played out. But if the DM wants to rule something, then I accept it. Then I decide if being a player with him as a DM is worth the joy of playing D&D.