Area effect spells and swarms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Area effect spells and swarms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dr. Jubal Harshaw
03-22-04, 01:41 PM My party just had an encounter with a swarm monster, i.e. one monster composed of many little monsters, and I had a quibble with my DM's ruling. He said that an area affect spell would treatthe swarm as 1 creature with a lot of hit points, rather than many creatures with lots of hit points. I can understand this, if just for game balance reasons, but he then said that I couldn't target the swarm as an individual creature, as I would be just targeting one little insect. Thus a disintegrate would have no effect, but a cone of cold would. This seemed to me to be in contradiction to his first ruling...

So, am I getting screwed, or should I go read the PHB again?
olshanski_home
03-22-04, 02:49 PM I think your DM is right on.

An area spell effects a swarm, a targeted spell effects an individual.

Magic Missile: kills a bug (non-effective)
Burning Hands: Kills a bunch of bugs. (effective)
Swing a sword: Kills a bug or two (non-effective)
Fireball/Lightning bolt: effects a bunch
Disintigrate: effects only one.
mercurial67
03-22-04, 03:21 PM Well, your DM is both correct & incorrect in his interpretation. According to the SRD, swarms are treated as a single monster with a single set of HP for all damage purposes. This is used whether it is an area effect spell or a spell which targets an individual. So your cone of cold AND your disentigrate would both effect the swarm the same way.

The way area effect spells work on swarms may seem a bit odd, but remember swarms are supposed to be very dense. Just assume the first couple of ranks of creatures provide full cover for the rest of the creatures. The same denseness could also cause single effect spells to "bleed" over to adjacent creatures.

If you want more clarification, check the SRD for Monsters starting with S (swarm).
Dr. Jubal Harshaw
03-22-04, 04:49 PM thanks for the clarification, I thought there was something iffy about the disintegrate part. I'll point it out to him next session.
olshanski_home
03-22-04, 05:13 PM Mercurial, I think you have mis-stated the SRD.
You said "According to the SRD, swarms are treated as a single monster with a single set of HP for all damage purposes." That is correct, and is what the SRD says.
You go on to say "This is used whether it is an area effect spell or a spell which targets an individual." I could not find text of that sort at all in the SRD. I think a spell which targets an individual runs into the same problem as attacking a swarm with weapons... you only hurt one at a time. The monster manual (not the SRD) says that swarms are vulnerable to area-effect spells... I don't have the MM with me so I cannot give an exact quote.

The rules aren't going to say one thing or the other, but I would side with the DM... that the spirit of the swarm is that specific target spells and attacks are ineffective, but area effect spells do full damage.

You could argue that since it says the swarm has a single saving throw, that it is vulnerable to disintigrate... but that is clearly not the case, since swarms also have a single AC but are not succeptable to swords or arrows.

Here is the relevant text from the SRD:

DISINTEGRATE
Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per casting.

SWARM:
Swarms are dense masses of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that would not be particularly dangerous in small groups, but can be terrible foes when gathered in sufficient numbers. For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet—gigantic hordes are actually composed of dozens of swarms in close proximity. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. It makes saving throws as a single creature.
Many different creatures can mass as swarms; bat swarms, centipede swarms, hellwasp swarms, locust swarms, rat swarms, and spider swarms are described here. The swarm’s type varies with the nature of the component creature (most are animals or vermin), but all swarms have the swarm subtype.
A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. A large swarm is completely shapeable, though it usually remains contiguous.
COMBAT
In order to attack, a single swarm moves into opponents’ spaces, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey, but remains a creature with a 10-foot space. Swarms never make attacks of opportunity, but they can provoke attacks of opportunity.
Unlike other creatures with a 10-foot space, a swarm is shapeable. It can occupy any four contiguous squares, and it can squeeze through any space large enough to contain one of its component creatures.
Vulnerabilities of Swarms
Swarms are extremely difficult to fight with physical attacks. However, they have a few special vulnerabilities,
as follows:
A lit torch swung as an improvised weapon deals 1d3 points of fire damage per hit.
A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm.
A lit lantern can be used as a thrown weapon, dealing 1d4 points of fire damage to all creatures in squares adjacent to where it breaks.
Serric Ral
03-22-04, 08:33 PM A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

This is from the SRD under traits for swarms.
olshanski_home
03-23-04, 08:11 AM Thanks Serric,
I always forget to look under the "types and SUbtypes" glossary.
Dr. Jubal Harshaw
03-23-04, 03:18 PM Ah well, I guess I was wrong. :mad:
It seems a little powerfull to me though, that swarms can only be affected by area effect spells - and that even weapons don't do damage. I can see why, but it seems harsh - this swarm was a 17th level encounter, and if my sorcerer had had one less Horrid Wilting we'd have been done for...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dr. Jubal Harshaw 03-22-04, 01:41 PM	My party just had an encounter with a swarm monster, i.e. one monster composed of many little monsters, and I had a quibble with my DM's ruling. He said that an area affect spell would treatthe swarm as 1 creature with a lot of hit points, rather than many creatures with lots of hit points. I can understand this, if just for game balance reasons, but he then said that I couldn't target the swarm as an individual creature, as I would be just targeting one little insect. Thus a disintegrate would have no effect, but a cone of cold would. This seemed to me to be in contradiction to his first ruling... So, am I getting screwed, or should I go read the PHB again?
olshanski_home 03-22-04, 02:49 PM	I think your DM is right on. An area spell effects a swarm, a targeted spell effects an individual. Magic Missile: kills a bug (non-effective) Burning Hands: Kills a bunch of bugs. (effective) Swing a sword: Kills a bug or two (non-effective) Fireball/Lightning bolt: effects a bunch Disintigrate: effects only one.
mercurial67 03-22-04, 03:21 PM	Well, your DM is both correct & incorrect in his interpretation. According to the SRD, swarms are treated as a single monster with a single set of HP for all damage purposes. This is used whether it is an area effect spell or a spell which targets an individual. So your cone of cold AND your disentigrate would both effect the swarm the same way. The way area effect spells work on swarms may seem a bit odd, but remember swarms are supposed to be very dense. Just assume the first couple of ranks of creatures provide full cover for the rest of the creatures. The same denseness could also cause single effect spells to "bleed" over to adjacent creatures. If you want more clarification, check the SRD for Monsters starting with S (swarm).
Dr. Jubal Harshaw 03-22-04, 04:49 PM	thanks for the clarification, I thought there was something iffy about the disintegrate part. I'll point it out to him next session.
olshanski_home 03-22-04, 05:13 PM	Mercurial, I think you have mis-stated the SRD. You said "According to the SRD, swarms are treated as a single monster with a single set of HP for all damage purposes." That is correct, and is what the SRD says. You go on to say "This is used whether it is an area effect spell or a spell which targets an individual." I could not find text of that sort at all in the SRD. I think a spell which targets an individual runs into the same problem as attacking a swarm with weapons... you only hurt one at a time. The monster manual (not the SRD) says that swarms are vulnerable to area-effect spells... I don't have the MM with me so I cannot give an exact quote. The rules aren't going to say one thing or the other, but I would side with the DM... that the spirit of the swarm is that specific target spells and attacks are ineffective, but area effect spells do full damage. You could argue that since it says the swarm has a single saving throw, that it is vulnerable to disintigrate... but that is clearly not the case, since swarms also have a single AC but are not succeptable to swords or arrows. Here is the relevant text from the SRD: DISINTEGRATE Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per casting. SWARM: Swarms are dense masses of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that would not be particularly dangerous in small groups, but can be terrible foes when gathered in sufficient numbers. For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet—gigantic hordes are actually composed of dozens of swarms in close proximity. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. It makes saving throws as a single creature. Many different creatures can mass as swarms; bat swarms, centipede swarms, hellwasp swarms, locust swarms, rat swarms, and spider swarms are described here. The swarm’s type varies with the nature of the component creature (most are animals or vermin), but all swarms have the swarm subtype. A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. A large swarm is completely shapeable, though it usually remains contiguous. COMBAT In order to attack, a single swarm moves into opponents’ spaces, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey, but remains a creature with a 10-foot space. Swarms never make attacks of opportunity, but they can provoke attacks of opportunity. Unlike other creatures with a 10-foot space, a swarm is shapeable. It can occupy any four contiguous squares, and it can squeeze through any space large enough to contain one of its component creatures. Vulnerabilities of Swarms Swarms are extremely difficult to fight with physical attacks. However, they have a few special vulnerabilities, as follows: A lit torch swung as an improvised weapon deals 1d3 points of fire damage per hit. A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm. A lit lantern can be used as a thrown weapon, dealing 1d4 points of fire damage to all creatures in squares adjacent to where it breaks.
Serric Ral 03-22-04, 08:33 PM	A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells. This is from the SRD under traits for swarms.
olshanski_home 03-23-04, 08:11 AM	Thanks Serric, I always forget to look under the "types and SUbtypes" glossary.
Dr. Jubal Harshaw 03-23-04, 03:18 PM	Ah well, I guess I was wrong. :mad: It seems a little powerfull to me though, that swarms can only be affected by area effect spells - and that even weapons don't do damage. I can see why, but it seems harsh - this swarm was a 17th level encounter, and if my sorcerer had had one less Horrid Wilting we'd have been done for...