Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kredge 02-12-06, 06:50 PM	last week after starting a new campaign i decided to make a cleric for the first time and was talking to the dm about me having my fist lawful good character. he started asking me questions on what i would do in certain situations. one came up that we had a argument about and it was. DM says "an evil undead lich king is begging for mercy what do you do." I say "try to kill all evil that i can." He says "you lose your alignment for killing a guy begging for mercy." i disagree and carrys on for hours. well anyway we played again yesterday and had us fight a lvl 13 lich king and there was five of us lvl 2 players and the lich used everything he had to make sure i was dead and couldnt come back and ripped up my papers. now the DM said i am the worst cleric and should never be one ever. so what should i do for a new guy to bug the dm
Louist 02-12-06, 07:06 PM	Thats a question for the Character Optimization board. However, just to point out, a Lawful Good character would in most cases take prisoner someone who yeilded, no matter how evil, in order to turn that prisoner over to a higher authority.
GaffeR 02-12-06, 07:10 PM	Depends on how you wanna play your cleric. The book of exalted deeds says that you need to show mercy to any enemy that asks for it. But i hear you say, "oh, why bother? He's so evil he could never be redeemed!" Well, liches aren't fiends, nor are they red dragons. They can indeed be brought around to the light. It's an iffy conundrum. If you do kill him, you probably shouldn't lose your alignment, thought it's not really the "Exalted" thing to do. Was your DM targetting you specifically, or were you just interpreting it that way? Sounds like the former by what you've written. It also sounds like you guys are insane. CR 13 vs 5 level 2 players? Ripping up character sheets? Sounds juvenille. Um, quit, or work it out with him. Don't be a child and go around bugging him at game sessions. You're just gonna **** everyone at the table off.
Surgo 02-12-06, 07:31 PM	Forget the hammer gun, it's time to break out the H-4 Hammer Assault Rifle.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-12-06, 08:43 PM	On the alignment thing, i do actually agree with your DM. The good thing to do is to spare the creatures life, and show both mercy and forgiveness. The lawful thing to do is drag it before the authorities and let hem decide what to do with it. Killing anything in cold bold, when it is begging for merci is neither good nor lawful. It is murder, and as such evil. As a cleric I would have your Deity send you nightmares or something, basically warning you of the wring doing. If you were a paladin, you would loos your powers. As for the CR 13 lich Vrs a level 2 party...Perhaps you DM missed the handy balancing encounters section found in the DMG.
DeadKeepWalking 02-12-06, 09:13 PM	I would say that your DM is very immature, but his arguement about not killing someone who asked for mercy is valid. Now, if the Lich tried to kill you or someone else after you granted mercy, and you were taking him to the authorities, you would be allowed to kill the Lich. The fact that he ripped up character sheets is a sign that he has to be right all the time, prove everyone wrong, and always be in charge/have power. Although it would tick off the DM some more, I would play a cleric again, and take a good look at the alignments. If you want to kill all the Evil in the world, a Chaotic Good, or Chaotic Neutral character would be the way to go because you wouldn't be required to follow a code of conduct/honor.
Tzor 02-12-06, 09:15 PM	so what should i do for a new guy to bug the dm Nothing. I'm serious ... do nothing. In the first place the question is a strawman. (Undead liches do not ask for mercy.) In the second place a CR lich against 2nd level characters is overkil of the highest order. Third having the DM taunt you should be a definite indicator as to the emotional state of the DM. Therefore I can only come to one conclusion. You can't win. You can't break even. You can quit the game! (Actually the strawman is even funnier, "killing" a lich only brings him back where his phylactery is located. Which is why "begging for mercy" is so bizzare. But I don't think a DM who sends a CR 13 lich king against a party of 5 2nd level characters because of what someone answered out of game is going to listen to rational logic anyway. Don't play "Cold War" because the DM will always win. If he threw that lich king at your party and no one complained, think of what he would do if you tried a build that might work. He would simply use higher overkill.)
shadowed_dragon 02-12-06, 09:40 PM	DM says "an evil undead lich king is begging for mercy what do you do." I say "try to kill all evil that i can." He says "you lose your alignment for killing a guy begging for mercy." i disagree and carrys on for hours. This depends more on the laws and views of your chosen god really. How does your diety veiw evil undead? Maybe he wants all undead destroyed? Charactors should be allowed a little freedom in their alignment, your character has every right to hate undead. Even to seek and destroy them. This is "good" thing is it not? As for lawful, it depends on the campain, but an evil undead creature probably doesn't have the "legal" right to a trial. (And is taking an evil undead wizard to a town full of innocent people a "good" thing to do?) Also he's a litch you can kill him, then just take his phylactery cause you haven't killed him untill you destroy that. had us fight a lvl 13 lich king and there was five of us lvl 2 players ... the lich used everything he had to make sure i was dead and couldnt come back and ripped up my papers This is the result of a power hungry, immature DM who wants to control what character you play. As a DM myself, I can say that a DM should never single out and kill a PC, just because they disagree with you. It is not a DM's job to play aganst the players, but to tell a story, challenge them, but let them win. A DM who plays against his PC's, soon is hated by them. (oh? and were you the only one to die? and did the DM rip up your papers?) now the DM said i am the worst cleric and should never be one ever He has no right what so ever to say this, if he acts like this all the time the other players must be feeling bad about his DMing too. Maybe it's time you or someone else had a turn DMing?
Frodo Lives 02-12-06, 09:41 PM	The DM sounds like an immature jerk. I don't play with idiot DMs, I suggest you don't either. However, in general if someone is truly repentant and is asking for mercy a LG character would try to show mercy and take him prisoner. However, for someone to be repentant then asking for mercy is something they would do before a battle, not after one that they lost. If someone is trying to kill me, then I find it hard to believe that they have seen the light two seconds after it has become apparent that they will lose and probably be killed. Doesn't sound to sincere to me. Sounds like self preservation, which is a completely different matter altogether. Alignment issues are pretty tricky and can vary from game to game. I actually give credit to your DM for talking to you about alignment issues before you tried to play a LG character, or a cleric. I wish more DMs would do that. But as for everything else, he is a putz. Leave the game, it won't get better.
WayneTheGame 02-12-06, 09:49 PM	First of all, your DM is an idiot and should have his DMG burned. Quit the game ASAP if possible. A DM should *never* single out a PC for death, and should never, *ever* dare tell a player "You are the worst [whatever] ever." Second, he needs to read and understand the CR/ECL rules. A 13th level *anything* against a 2nd level party is just ridiculous. What he did to your character was even more ridiculous; in fact, I applaud you for not punching him in the face after that. Thirdly, an evil undead lich king would *never* beg for mercy. Not in character at all. If he *did* do something like that, it's probably a trick. Fourthly, you would not immediately shift alignments for doing *any* act, good or evil. It takes many, many acts to shift an alignment. Fifthly, go to the CO boards and bring in Pun-Pun. Seriously. It's never designed to be played, but in this case I think we can make an exception. So, to recap: Your DM is a moron. Quit the game if possible, use Pun-Pun if not. If your DM ever pulls something like this again, proceed to introduct his face to a sharp and/or blunt object of your choice.
Kredge 02-12-06, 10:23 PM	thanks for the help with all this i do need to think about alignment more. As for quitting i dont know about that maybe ill suggest that a couple more people in my group learn more about how to DM so we can switch off and ill tell him i will quit if he goes power hungry again. but we are a beginning group and learning newer things everytime we play pretty much.thanks again for everybodys input.
lastcurse 02-12-06, 10:59 PM	Your situation is simple. Your DM is a jerk. Is he in charge of what goes on in the game? Yes. Does that mean he should act like an anti-social :censored: - No. People like him should not be DMs. I don't care how well he knows the rules. Being rude and mistreating people just because he has the "power" to IMHO also shows serious character flaws. He put together a no-chance encounter because you disagreed with him on an alignment matter out of game. So, he ruins a game because of it. Strike 1. He then insults you and tells you that you are the worst cleric ever and not to play one. So the criterion for a good cleric is how much you agree with him out of game? Strike 2. Finally, he rips up your papers. Real mature. Strike 3. The guy is a :censored: . This isn't even an issue of D&D. It is common sense. Don't have anything to do with the guy, and certainly don't play his game. Take up the screen yourself. It is a lot of fun. But if you do, be a man about it and treat people fairly, including your old DM if you are willing to let him in. Sometimes it is best to lead by example. IT IS NOT IMPORTANT WHO WAS RIGHT ABOUT ALIGNMENT! The problem is how your DM handles himself. Even if he was right and you were wrong, what he did was totally inexcusable. Edit-- If he would have tried putting his hands on something of mine and ripping it up, I would of knocked his teeth in.
Vacerious 02-12-06, 11:46 PM	so what should i do for a new guy to bug the dm First, my bad advice. One word, friend. Pun-Pun (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801) Before I begin, a quick warning: /rant. :rant: Now, my good advice. Pick up the role of DM, and show him how its done. If he's pulling crap like this, then he just needs step down from the big-boy chair and play some other game. Kredge, I honestly have to bow to your patience of steel. In your OP, you never stated that you haven't even yelled at the guy (though I presume some yelling occurred during the alignment arguement, but that is to be expected.) While I would have mistaken the "Lich King v.s. the 5 lvl 2 adventurers" as the result of n00bish/bad DM'ing, the insult and tearing of the character sheets definitely would have made me clock him. With his own DMG, presuming he has even so much as LOOKED at one, much less buy his own and READ it. I do honestly congratulate your nerves of steel, Kredge. You are a better man than I. /rant Reading this thread has made me a sad panda. :weep: Now where did I put my damned HammerVulcan 3000? If anyone needs me, I'll be in Minnesota "consulting" a certain DM on his attitude at the table. ;)
weasel fierce 02-13-06, 12:34 AM	You two arent playing the same game. Talk it out between you, untill you're on the same page, or dont play. Deliberately trying to sabotage a game is only a valid tactic, if you're under 12 years old.
kinjojones 02-13-06, 01:42 AM	You I know I've heard it argued that it's evil people who ask for and give mercy the most often and good people who won't hesitate to kill you.
Wraithburn 02-13-06, 03:25 AM	One of the most powerful undead creatures you could possibly face ...and it begs for mercy? What kind of scenario is that? The lich blasts the hell out of your party in a ferocious battle that continues for some time. Then it asks you to forgive what it has done to you and your friends? "Oh please dont hurt me any more, I promise to behave and LET you take me to the town where I can be imprisoned. Before you take me away, can I go get my Fuzzy Bunny Slippers?" Give me a break. Why in the world would a LG Cleric, holy soldier, smiter of evil, even give a second thought to granting an EVIL Lich (nasty undead creature with a lust for limitless power and all the time in the world to get it) a second chance anyway? Your DM should make up a bunch of written responses/actions for each alignment and have him hand them out to you at the begining of the game. That way you are prepared to play the game the way he wants it played. Anyway, I feel really aggitated becasue of your lackluster DM, and my thoughts are becoming jummbled. On a side note: As for ripping up someones character sheet, alive or dead, is blasphemy and would have warrented a right beating with any available source books. Hope you can find a better DM or at least get your current one to read the DMG.
Black Kitten 02-13-06, 03:47 AM	last week after starting a new campaign i decided to make a cleric for the first time and was talking to the dm about me having my fist lawful good character. he started asking me questions on what i would do in certain situations. one came up that we had a argument about and it was. DM says "an evil undead lich king is begging for mercy what do you do." I say "try to kill all evil that i can." He says "you lose your alignment for killing a guy begging for mercy." i disagree and carrys on for hours. well anyway we played again yesterday and had us fight a lvl 13 lich king and there was five of us lvl 2 players and the lich used everything he had to make sure i was dead and couldnt come back and ripped up my papers. now the DM said i am the worst cleric and should never be one ever. so what should i do for a new guy to bug the dm Now, TECHNICALLY... you should try to redeem evil when ever you can... note the last part, however... CAN. Evil Undead Liches have a slight problem with turning good, especially since they are in themselves a creation of evil... SECONDLY... Lawful Good means that you do the LG MOST OF THE TIME. You're not a Paladin. Your DM needs to be shot, in the groin, with a Frenzying Squirrel. This was the result of Baleful Polymorph on a Frenzied Berserker Bugbear who did make his will save, but rolled a 1 on his Fort... :'(
Wargamer 02-13-06, 04:52 AM	I think your DM was way out of line. You could easily justify your choice, especially as a cleric... Lawful characters tend to adhere to the rules strictly. If your religion has the words... UNDEAD ARE EVIL! DESTROY THEM ALL! ...carved into an obdurium wall, then you will not so much as blink when you smash the begging Liche's head through the floorboards. It sounds to me your DM doesn't know how to think outside the box... or perhaps even think inside the box.
Evil DM Mk3 02-13-06, 08:51 AM	Also bear in mind that I have heard VERY good arguments for both of the following to be considered LG. Judge Dredd The Punisher LG is not one alignment any more that the others are. There are an infinate number of ways to view the world and only nine alignments. Another note, on killing undead it is availd argument that since damadging/trapping the soul is evil then killing a sentient undead is Freeing a soul and therfore good, regardless of their actions. Plus many LG relegions put their clerics almost up as field Judge jury and executioner with the power of summorary execution. In any case lychdom is an act of unspeakable evil (see the MM) and so would certainly carry a death sentance.
Pfisiar 02-13-06, 09:00 AM	Judge Dread is Lawful Nuetral. The only thing he cares about as far as right or wrong is considered, is what society defines as right or wrong through it's laws. He cannot be Lawful Good because the only force that matters to him is Lawful. Why do you think the alignment "Lawful Good" is called "The Judge". :rolleyes: The Punisher is Chaotic Good. He cares about Justice but in an abstract way. He believes in revenge and justic as absolute things and to hell with any system of social ethics which gets in his way. Since the Punisher does seem concerned with protecting innocent life, he definitely merits the "good" alignment.
Evil DM Mk3 02-13-06, 09:09 AM	Judge Dread is Lawful Nuetral. The only thing he cares about as far as right or wrong is considered, is what society defines as right or wrong through it's laws. He cannot be Lawful Good because the only force that matters to him is Lawful. Why do you think the alignment "Lawful Good" is called "The Judge". :rolleyes: The Punisher is Chaotic Good. He cares about Justice but in an abstract way. He believes in revenge and justic as absolute things and to hell with any system of social ethics which gets in his way. Since the Punisher does seem concerned with protecting innocent life, he definitely merits the "good" alignment. I said I had herd them. But you illistrate my point very well. Because I have heard arguments for the punisher as LN and even LE, but this is the first chaotic argument I have ever heard. But in the end you can't out argue the DM, so don't try.
Pfisiar 02-13-06, 09:19 AM	I said I had herd them. But you illistrate my point very well. Because I have heard arguments for the punisher as LN and even LE, but this is the first chaotic argument I have ever heard. But in the end you can't out argue the DM, so don't try. Well, the way I see it is this. The Punisher seeks to punish wrong-doers. Those who have hurt the innocent. Punisher seeks to protect innocent life by removing the guilty. The punisher is very altruistic in his goals, almost stubbornly so. If you hurt an innocent person, you should be punished. And yet, the Punisher doesn't recognize the need for social laws. in fact, he sees them as a hinderence to his goals. Hence the Chaotic aspect of his nature. And how can you argue that Judge Dread is Good? The only thing Dread has respect for is the law, traditions and society. The absolute definition of Lawful Nuetral.
Balor von Balorvitch 02-13-06, 09:38 AM	:confused: Also bear in mind that I have heard VERY good arguments for both of the following to be considered LG. Judge Dredd The Punisher Judge Dredd: The paragon of Lawful Neutral, Both are called the judge. He enforces the law no matter what. The Punisher: Choatic Neutral, I have a comic where he kills everyone at a mob party, the mobsters, the cooks, the chaters, the waiters, the dogs, etc. He is consumed by rage and will do anything to you for not redemption but 'Punshment'. As for the OP killing a Lich who begs for mercy is as justified as it is moot. (His soul stays in tact) He is WAY to dangerous to be left alive let alone travel with (Does anyone know the word teleport?)
ShadowDragon8685 02-13-06, 10:00 AM	Forget hammerguns. Forget hammer assault rifles. I think this DM needs to be ganked of his DMing liscence.
Clawhound 02-13-06, 10:06 AM	Given that a primary mission of good clerics it to destroy undead, by will of the gods, then I simply don't see how the cleric even had a choice here but to destroy the thing. Quite simply, the cleric would break his lawful alignment by SPARING the lich because that would go against the expressed duty of the cleric. (C'mon folks. This is D&D. The express purpose of the characters is to destroy monsters. If you want to spare things, take vows from BoED.) If there is an alignment tip, destroying an undead that begs for mercy would tip the cleric towards chaotic, rather than evil, so a Neutral Good cleric is still a viable cleric type. You don't change alignment for singular actions. You change alignment for repeated and persistant behavior. Your cleric would need to do many such things to garner a forced alignment change. Given that the lich is already a mixed scenario, where the cleric is facing multiple ideals, the alignment violation is not at all clear.
morganm 02-13-06, 10:14 AM	While the DM is always right, and I respect that, I wouldnt play a module.. let alone a campaign.. with one that rips up a character sheet and tells you to never, ever, play a class/alignment. I think he's butt sore that you argued with him over it and had to prove how far he could pee. ;p
Twisted Puppy 02-13-06, 04:22 PM	Forget hammerguns. Forget hammer assault rifles. I think this DM needs to be ganked of his DMing liscence. I'll agree that the DM in this case acted in an immature fashion. However, not knowing the ages of the players in question, or their experience, makes a blanket statement like ShadowDragon8685's just as immature. I know of NO ONE who, in their first attempt at DMing, did not have problems. There is a learning process involved. Some learn quicker than others. Some have the benefit of playing with DMs that provided a good example. I would recommend the OP and the other players would do an "after action review" of the game and discuss what they did and didn't like. It is entirely possible that SD8685 will turn out to be correct. But there is too little information from the OP to say at this point. Kredge, if you are looking to make another character just to annoy the DM, I seriously recommend finding another group or not playing. Whatever you think of him, doing that will just lower you to his level.
Arrowhen 02-13-06, 05:28 PM	lDM says "an evil undead lich king is begging for mercy what do you do." I roll Sense Motive.
Ashok_Lal 02-13-06, 09:57 PM	Sure the DM is in the wrong. Nobody is arguing this point but consider this. (1) are you friends? You seem to be or you would not have come here for answers you would have just whinged! You have shown great patance with the DM and have tried to defend him against some of the posters on this forum. So if you are friends sit down and work it out I think you can do it. (2) Lawfull Good has got to be the hardest allignment to play. Nobody agrees what the allignment truly means me included. I have just started playing a LG fighter after X years of playing a rouge. It's hard. Ive got the players and DM judging me all the time (which I asked them to do)so that when i have it worked out i can start taking levels in paladin. (3) Get in and have fun. The game caters for everybody! :)
lastcurse 02-14-06, 02:25 AM	However, not knowing the ages of the players in question, or their experience, makes a blanket statement like ShadowDragon8685's just as immature. I know of NO ONE who, in their first attempt at DMing, did not have problems. There is a learning process involved. Some learn quicker than others. Some have the benefit of playing with DMs that provided a good example. I would recommend the OP and the other players would do an "after action review" of the game and discuss what they did and didn't like. Bro, did you read what the DM did? The problem isn't simply that he is an *awful* DM, but the larger problem is that he is a :censored:. And no, I am not just immaturely throwing around names. You ruin an entire game because one player disagrees with you, insult them, and then rip up their papers? That is not a D&D problem. Well, actually ruining the game is, but 2 out of 3 stem from being an arsehole. Yeah, DMing is tough, and tougher if you have less experience or are younger. But, DMing experience or age have nothing to do with what this guy's malfunction is. The problem is deeper, and is with his personality. He doesn't have the personal character it takes to be a helf-decent DM.
Squaba 02-14-06, 02:39 AM	I disagree with your DMs choice on dinking your alignment, but his idea of Lawful Good is probably different then mine. A good method when playing ANY lawful character is to write up a small set of rules and laws that your player follows, for a cleric or paladin it’s good to find a god that you would enjoy playing around and then designing your code based of their specific dogma. If you say that your character doesn’t suffer any evil to exist than if you wish to kill a Evil critter, no matter if it is begging for mercy, then that’s your shtick and no DM should punish you for doing it. I do however agree that you shouldnt go out of your way to Pi$$ of the DM, that’ll just lead to more problem. I say create another Cleric, possibly a Neutral Good one, and roll with it.
guru7892 02-14-06, 03:39 AM	Forget the hammer gun, it's time to break out the H-4 Hammer Assault Rifle. more like a hammer-witzer (l0lsors!i) just don't provoke your DM, just pickup another charictar sheet amek a new charictar. just because some people are immature doesnt mean you have to be.
Twisted Puppy 02-14-06, 08:17 AM	Bro, did you read what the DM did? Yes, I did. I believe I stated that it was an immature response on the part of the DM. My point is, if the DM in question is 15 or 16 years old, there is the possibility that he will grow out of it. There is not enough information in the OP for me to say "That guy should never DM again."
Nom 02-14-06, 04:31 PM	Let's ignore the issues with the DM and just focus on alignment. What many people (including in some books the D&D rules writers) seem to miss is that mercy is a Chaotic trait as well as a Good one. Mercy, like clemency, is about showing kindness to someone over and above what they deserve. If you are asking for something because of "mercy" then you are asking because you don't have a right to it. As such, it is not inappropriate for a Lawful character to not show mercy to someone who deserves punishment. Lawful is about rules, and order, and getting what you deserve. The PH gets this right: Alhandra, the iconic LG, "fights evil without mercy" (PH pg 105). The correct question is not whether it's an alignment violation for an LG character to fail to show mercy but whether it's an alignment violation to do so. (Answer: maybe, but thinking in terms of "alignment violations" rather than attitudes and world view is usually unconstructive and leads to many problems).
lastcurse 02-14-06, 06:45 PM	Let's ignore the issues with the DM and just focus on alignment. What many people (including in some books the D&D rules writers) seem to miss is that mercy is a Chaotic trait as well as a Good one. Mercy, like clemency, is about showing kindness to someone over and above what they deserve. If you are asking for something because of "mercy" then you are asking because you don't have a right to it. As such, it is not inappropriate for a Lawful character to not show mercy to someone who deserves punishment. Lawful is about rules, and order, and getting what you deserve. The PH gets this right: Alhandra, the iconic LG, "fights evil without mercy" (PH pg 105). The correct question is not whether it's an alignment violation for an LG character to fail to show mercy but whether it's an alignment violation to do so. (Answer: maybe, but thinking in terms of "alignment violations" rather than attitudes and world view is usually unconstructive and leads to many problems). Very good point. Now prepare for a slew of (hopefully) equally good counterpoints. This is why alignment is more trouble than its worth.
LCD2YOU 02-14-06, 06:56 PM	I've always loved this line: You got to take wrong doers to the proper authorities. Question, who are these propper authorities?
DracoPhoenix 02-15-06, 04:15 AM	last week after starting a new campaign i decided to make a cleric for the first time and was talking to the dm about me having my fist lawful good character. he started asking me questions on what i would do in certain situations. one came up that we had a argument about and it was. DM says "an evil undead lich king is begging for mercy what do you do." I say "try to kill all evil that i can." He says "you lose your alignment for killing a guy begging for mercy." i disagree and carrys on for hours. well anyway we played again yesterday and had us fight a lvl 13 lich king and there was five of us lvl 2 players and the lich used everything he had to make sure i was dead and couldnt come back and ripped up my papers. now the DM said i am the worst cleric and should never be one ever. so what should i do for a new guy to bug the dm Hmmm, the immediate answer is pun pun, the one after that is evaluate the facts: 1) that the dm enforced his perceptions of how a lawful good cleric should act (and I wonder how he would react to say a paladin in the same situation). This wouldn't be a problem except you had a very different opinion on the matter - what we're your other answers like? What does the dmg/phb say on alignments? (I'm at work) 2) what was the CR for a lvl 13 lich attacking a lvl 2 party? 3) did he specifically and ~exclusively target the cleric? 4) advise him that lichs are more or less evil incarnate, allowing one to live will result in more harm than good. Which would constitue a penalty to wisdom more than alignment :) 5) Who ripped up the papers? Either way it was a fairly immature act. [edit: ok, just read the post again :)] 6) you can attone for killing a lich (fairly easily I would have thought) 7) You can't attone for letting a lich "live" if he goes on a killing spree. Let's see what was going in favour of the lich: 1)Evil, no - good clerics tend to go out of their way to stop evil 2) Undead, see above chainging evil for undead 3)Is a king, no - he can't claim he was only following orders 4)asked for mercy. Is he lawful evil? Otherwise you have no way, or fair expectation he would go good (which I think is almost impossible anyway) 5)Giving him a quick execution can be considered mercy :) Options: 1) Prep as many cleric characters as you can until you get it "right". 2) roll a cleric, neutral good :) (Its only Paladins who must be lawful), go out of your way to slay undead. Make it a character quirk :) 3)Next time the bad guy asks for mercy, grant it and if he then carries on with evil, don't do anything, let the town burn and use the answer "but I promised him mercy, I can't go back on my word now, can I?" Of all the things a DM can do, dictating characters & how you play / what you do is one of the few they can't (baring saying you can't use certain books, of which the PHB is not likely to be one of them)
Evil DM Mk3 02-15-06, 04:52 AM	LG, as somone pointed out, is about Justice, not mercy. Also I quite like the spin Terry Prattchett puts on it in Witches Abroad, that the good are inocent and create Justice (because they have nothing to fear from it), whilst the evil are guilty and so create Mercy (so that otheres may go soft on them in return.) Also bear in mind that there is not even a single way a Paladin must behave in this situation, differant DMs will allways put differant spins on alignment. In my world (and this is an idea that worked very well) your alignment is fixed but reprisents not your actions but your true inner self. To take a Discworld example Vimes probably has a traditional D&D alignment of NG, but in my world the core of his being is more likely to be CE, he is just very good at supressing it. As are most people when it comes to their true selves.
WayneTheGame 02-15-06, 07:57 AM	While I certainly agree that a LG character isn't by any means required to show mercy, I would like to point out that *refusing* to show someone mercy once they're beaten and no longer a threat is *not* something a LG person would do. A paladin would lose his paladinhood for refusing to show an opponent mercy if said opponent asked for it (key word being asked).
Nom 02-15-06, 08:52 AM	A paladin would lose his paladinhood for refusing to show an opponent mercy if said opponent asked for it (key word being asked).Why? A paladin is a holy warrior, often tasked with being judge and executioner in one (no separation of church and state or separation of powers here). Does a judge cease being LG if a convicted serial murderer decides that he doesn't want to die? Or a general because he court-martials the soldier caught trying to sabotage the armory and possibly killing hundreds of his companions? "Alhandra, a paladin who fights evil unless it asks nicely to be spared, is Lawful Good."
High Octane 02-15-06, 08:55 AM	I think this thread is a joke/false thread. The Level 13 Lich King being defeated by level 2 characters gives it away.
LCD2YOU 02-15-06, 08:55 AM	Remember "Showing Mercy" does not mean the perps get off scott free. Showing mercy and taking them to a the "local authorities" that many talk about but in my world Paladins and Clerics whose god(s) are involved with Law, Justice and the other domains like them ARE the authority. I'll talk to the player about what their charactre remembers and any "stories" or the "morality fables" they learned when apprenticed, squired or whatever they had to go through to become a paladin. That should lead them into what had gone before them and how they can deal with what they're facing. Of course, like all morality plays or other maxims, sometimes they don't always match up. The best anaolgy is the two maxims which are the "Look before you leap" and "He who hesitates is lost". So the Paladin can well grant mercy. They could then bind the BBEG, hold a trial, possibly find them guilty of a capital crime and then execute them. While I am not in favor of capital punishment myself, I do seperate my personal morality in a 21st Century world vs a dark ages or city state world that life is pretty cheap. So, the "moral" of this story? Take the prisonor into custody. If you're the best representive of the law for 100s of km, or you just don't know the other more "local" officials well at all, you are it. You are, in my game, authorized to meet out justice in whatever form you feel it is best to dispence it, even the death penalty. Remember the setting you're in, generally. If a person claiming to be a Paladin brought in a "criminal" into my city-state to prosecute, I'd be wary. If after that, they'd expect me to waste my resources on guarding them in my dungeon and worry about retribution from the "bad guys" friends, I'd string that moron, the Paladin, up for bothering me with THEIR problem. Worse yet if we declare "death" on the criminal, who turns out to be one, and then the moron starts complaining about "respect for life", they could join the criminal up in the crows nest. But that's my game.
WayneTheGame 02-15-06, 08:57 AM	Maybe it was changed in 3rd edition, but the 2e Paladin's Handbook gave a specific example of a paladin facing a lizardman, and the lizardman begged for mercy; the Paladin, seeing that the lizardman wasn't a threat anymore, spared his life. I always ran it like this because a *good* person shows mercy, even if the person doesn't deserve it. That's what makes you "good". The easy way out is to kill them then and there, and be done with it, and being good means never taking the easy way out. Those are just my opinions, however. I respect your interpretations/views on the subject.
LCD2YOU 02-15-06, 09:15 AM	Very true Wayne, That would definitely come into play. So the lizardman attacked the Paladin and his party for food, namely the walking warm meat bags. But the party bested them and the lizardman begs for his life. The Paladin even in my world would be facing real retirbution in just killing them. The Paladin would tell the lizardman that he would spare his life but if he hears that the lizardman kills any more humans or others like humans, he will be back. He is to tell his clan as well that their killing of humans for food or taken as slaves will not be tolerated. Up until then, the lizardman had committed no crime that he was aware of. In his world it is eat or be eaten, generally. That is relatively an "innocent" in a natural way understanding of the world. After the lizardman gets mercy and told what would happen, he is no longer innocent. so yes, the Paladin would let him go. Not everything is black and white.
WayneTheGame 02-15-06, 09:19 AM	Well, actually the example was, I guess, the Lizardman was evil and the paladin and party went to defeat him (it didn't give that much of the backstory). So he defeats the lizardman in single combat and it asks him for mercy, so the Paladin grants it and has his aides drag the lizardman away to spend its remaining years in prison. It was to illustrate that one of the Paladin's virtues is to show mercy to a defeated foe who has fought honorably.
Ut-Napishtim 02-15-06, 09:38 AM	As someone who tested as LG in an online alignment quiz, I would like to share my insights. ;) I would kill the sucker in a heartbeat. Part of being lawful is a belief in responsibility. Becoming a lich is an unspeakably evil act that may only be undertaken by a willing person. Now he must bear responsibility for that. I sure as hell didn't make him a lich - and I have innocent children to protect. There's a world of difference between a hungry neutral Lizardfolk and The Dark Lord Chuckles the Silly Piggy. The lich is an incredibly powerful, unbelievably evil foe who is beyond reform (seriously, reforming evil undead irrevokably chained to the negative energy plane? Remove the crack pipe from between your lips please). He will always pose a clear and present danger to every living thing in contact with him so long as he exists. Not destroying him would be irresponsible, and ergo chaotic. Also, you DM is a Donkey Sombrero. You should flee his game before it rubs off on you, right after you show him this thread. :twocents:
Throg 02-15-06, 10:04 AM	I would offer some advice.. just try to talk it over with him, maybe even show him this thread to see how many people disagree with him. Then try to talk it over with him.. If he wants more, just say that if you pass a knowlage religion check vs Liches, that you'd know that can't really 'destroy' them by destroying the body, you would have to find that one thing that I can't spell... but yea. So how is it going away from your alignment to kill pretty much Evil Incarnate since he is Undead.. which are fueled by negitive energy and are souls trapped in lifeless bodies, who spend there pretty much limitless time to killing and evilry? After which.. he'll just come back like nothing happened and continue with his evil plans. Unless there's a convient large town full of high level mages who'd be able to make an adiquate dungeon to hold him up in, with Antimagic fields and whatnot.. if that would work on a lich, then pretty much the only way to stop his plans is to get rid of the body right there. But I would also suggest the idea of playing a cleric again, but this time write out a list of codes and virtues which you live up to, put in 'Destroy all Undead' in there, and you won't have a problem with that question. I'm pretty sure Pelor would make a suitable god for that goal. If a 'Living' Evil creature were to ask for mercy, then yes, give it to him by taking him to proper athorities in a large town and let them deal with him through legal action. But the question isn't weither it's a living creature who's asking for his life to be spared, it's a cunning lich who'd probably have evil plans in mind for when the 'Good' party took him to the town.
Khisanth Magus 02-15-06, 12:06 PM	This is a case where the lines of LG kind of blur. What do you do when you come accross something that is too dangerous to let live? If you take it into town to hand it over to the authorities, who knows what it will do at the first opportunity...heck, it might just dominate said authorities. Or if you do give the lich over to the authorities, what good is that going to do? Sticking it in prison doesn't do any good at all(not to mention unless said prison is in an antimagic area the Lich will break out in like 5 seconds), and unless you have its phylactory to hand over as well, them killing the thing won't do any good either. In summary: While a philosophy of always showing mercy is all well and good, occationally there are times when you come accross something that is just too evil and/or powerful to let live.
Hasmead_Guy 02-16-06, 02:37 AM	IT IS NOT IMPORTANT WHO WAS RIGHT ABOUT ALIGNMENT! The problem is how your DM handles himself. Even if he was right and you were wrong, what he did was totally inexcusable. . Word. Kredge, a lot of good advice has been given up till now, but this is probably the bottom line. He's not just a poor DM- this is the kind of PERSON he is, and he's probably like that in all aspects of life. I've met his type before- sore losers, who have huge egos and will fight tooth and nail to the bitter end. Even if you show him the entire thread, do you really think it will do any good? Think about it; he set you up over something totally petty. He might just resent it and turn it around and use it against you in the future. My two cents- do NOT role up another character and keep playing. When nonsense like this goes down, call him out. This will happen again- trust me. If he doesn't acknowledge how unreasonalbe he was being, well there's the writing on the wall. And don't EVER let him play in a game you DM. It sounds like he has to be right, whether he has a case or not.
Andorxor 02-16-06, 03:56 AM	I would demmand a Lich ,gives me his Lichthing and all his spellbooks,before i grant him mercy.Than i drag him to the nearest bigger temple to get lots of marks of justice on him.