Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Regdren 07-19-05, 09:23 AM	This is a situation that I didn't expect to encounter. I play as a Paladin (no this is not one of those "moral dilemma" threads) who has just achieved Epic status. We started at level 16. And my problem is that I'm not sufficiently powering my character up, as far as I can tell. A few sessions ago, before we were epic, I had to make a Charisma check; I think it was diplomacy. It came out that my Charisma was 18, and didn't have any magical enhancements. My DM said that since my cloak slot wasn't filled I might as well get a Cloak of Charisma, especially since we had recently won a battle with quite a bit of loot. I disagreed, saying that 18 is high enough for me. His follow-up went something like this. "It would make sense for you to have it. Compared to the cash you have at your disposal, getting a cloak +6 would be a considerable benefit for a fairly low cost. And unless I'm mistaken, there was one picked up from that battle. If you don't provide a roleplaying explanation for this, your character will be committing a chaotic act." It's not the suggestions that I have a complaint about. What surprised me was that until then I'd never heard of someone getting punished by a DM for not boosting a character's abilities. I don't mind alignment shifts for roleplaying decisions, but becoming more chaotic for not getting a magic item? I dunno, maybe I'm in the wrong here. But I always figured that as far as character design goes in relation to combat and stats in general, the only reason that my actions would be subject to DM approval in this way would be if I started wielding unholy equipment or cheated in some way. If these boards are any indication, usually the problem is with characters having too many magic items. So...is my DM overreacting here, or am I wasting my time complaining about a sound decision he made?
Gurthoron 07-19-05, 09:56 AM	That is a really dumb reason to cause an alignment change, and your DM is being an idiot by suggesting it. There are reasons a Paladin would not take a cloak of charisma (at least RP reasons). For instance: Your Paladin sees using magic to aid in talking to people slightly evil and subversive. Your Paladin does not want to use magic as a crutch for his abilities. Your Paladin hates cloaks (They just get all dirty and messy, and cover up my shining armor that pronounces doom upon evil.) While the Cloak of Cha is useful to the PC from a character sheet standpoint, there is no reason you should be made to wear one. I don't know what to do if he persists in this chaotic nonsense. I'm irrationally contrary, and I would keep not using, go chaotic losing my Paladin abilities, then have the DM have to deal with the character he was trying to improve suddenly become weaker. But I'm kinda an a$$ like that. Good luck to you.
Keenath 07-19-05, 10:06 AM	I'm with Gurth here. I wouldn't be surprised by a Paladin that felt that it was too close to charming or mental control to use magic to become more convincing -- "if I can't do it with the gifts I was born with, I shouldn't be doing it". Now, if you've neglected Strength boosting, that would be strange. But a cloak of charisma? I can see a paladin disliking that just for being a little too close to enchanting people. Maybe it isn't evil, but it has the *appearance* of evil, and the paladin doesn't want to even get close to something like that.
celtredleg 07-19-05, 10:49 AM	I dont see any real big reason not to use the cloak. BUT, its your charicter. Alignment change over an item??? Your DM is being an AH. Tell him I said so. That would cause me to walk out on the game. Not because of the cloak specificly, but that controling attitude by a DM drives me wild. Ask him if he is going to control your skill picks as well?? Or maybe your daily spell selection??? Signs of a very bad DM.
Eros 07-19-05, 11:11 AM	I also agree with those who posted above. The DM sounds like he is either new to running the game or lacks the skill to make good suggestions to players. Imposing restrictions on a player for a reason such as this, is really bad form in my opinion. With that said, I personally would have taken the cloak. :D Charisma is such an important stat for a paladin. Eros
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 07-19-05, 11:15 AM	Personally, your DM is overbearing, controling, facist goof-ball...If he changes your alignment for not wearing/purchasing a magic item...I'd let him, then start the fall to the Blackguard PrC. Watch how well he deals with a PC who can kill/steal/pillage/maim everything in sight without penalty. :smirk: .o0(But, then again, I'm a jerk like that)
Callista 07-19-05, 11:30 AM	I don't see why you shouldn't buy the cloak... more Charisma would help your saves as well as your diplomacy. Still, it's your decision; and your DM has no good reason to threaten an alignment change over the choice of gear your character makes, unless he's decided to don demon armor and wield the sword of Kas or something. Your Paladin has a Charisma of 18. He's already as charming as it's humanly possible to be. He might feel it really presumptuous to attempt to become even more persuasive. He might think it would be catering to his own vanity, or encouraging him to feel too much pride. He could think it would give him an unfair advantage in negotiations. In any event, buying or not buying a cloak of charisma is a totally neutral choice that really has no bearing on your paladin's alignment unless there are other factors involved.
Lord Schpungus 07-19-05, 12:21 PM	I think your paladin is being insane; hence, chaotic. Use the dang cloak, it will clearly help you survive epicness, and make your DM happy. I can see it from his angle: you are willfully choosing, beyond reason and logic, to be weak and fail at your paladinny duties. It's crazy, it's chaotic, wow. Just pick up the cloak.
pres_man 07-19-05, 12:24 PM	Ok, from my perspect it seems your DM is acting out of frustration because of you. You are acting illogically, charisma is one of the most important abilities for a paladin, it only makes sense to improve it if possible. Since you currently have a cloak slot open, it is illogical not to fill it with something that would benefit you, if you have the resources to do it. If you don't provide a roleplaying explanation for this, This is your DM telling you to act in character. If you can come up with an in character reason why you wouldn't use a cloak, then state it. If you intend to just nerf your character for no reason, then that is stupid. your character will be committing a chaotic act. What? Nope, sorry, it might be chaotic if a church superior gave it to you and told you to wear it and you refused. 1) Paladins can do chaotic acts from time to time, so tell the DM "So what." 2)It is illogical but not chaotic necessarily. I would suggest you fill the cloak slot with something else, cloak of resistance maybe? Come up with good reasons for not wanting to wear it, see above posts for some, spend the money on improving other gear. But really, after the sorcerer and then after the bard, the paladin should be the one to get a cloak of charisma. This is not being munchkinly it is just being logical. I would also mention that you don't have to think of it as influencing people, but instead of making you look better. As the saying goes, "The clothes make the man." A cloak of charisma is just a better way for your character to dress. Nothing evil about that.
Psi-Phi 07-19-05, 03:01 PM	What are the Paladin's other ability scores? Does he wear any other stat-boosting items? (Does he feel that ALL of his abilities are good enough?) In your Paladin's case, a cloak +6 would increase his healing capability by 75%. Maybe he doesn't heal often, but if he ever runs out, he may fail in his duty as a Paladin. I think your DM is wrong to be forcing you to use it (the cloak) or lose it (your class), but I can't understand how a Paladin would be epic with your character's mindset. I would think that a Paladin whose attitude is 'I'm fine the way I am', would have retired before hitting epic challenges.
Gurthoron 07-19-05, 03:35 PM	I would think that a Paladin whose attitude is 'I'm fine the way I am', would have retired before hitting epic challenges. Perhaps the Paladin sees it as a challenge, a test of his faith not to fall back on needing items so save himself. Is not taking a cloak illogical from looking at a paladin's abilities? Sure, because its a useful item. But its completely reasonable for the Paladin not to want the cloak even on the basis that he doesn't like cloaks. That would be enough of a reason for me. The character doesn't necessarily know how the cloak would aid him. He might even see the cloak as only useful for persuading people to see his way, and it would be blashpeme for an impure arcane magic item such as the cloak to aid in his god-granted abilities. End result- do whatever you want. Take a cloak of cha, take a different cloak, take no cloak whatsoever. Whatever fits your character. Just provide a RP reason why. Now, the cloak of cha is probably the most useful cloak to you at the moment, but I urge you to choose a different path mainly because it will make your character that much more memorable and interesting. How many Paladins do you see forgoing cloaks of cha? Not many. Thus, you stand out of the crowd of cookie-cutter paladins of other people. Bravo, mate.
Bruunwald 07-19-05, 03:51 PM	An alignment change over a wardrobe choice? No. Even those here trying to find a rational argument, as in a paladin refusing to wear the cloak even when ordered to do so by a superior, are mistaking chaos for simple choice. The sections on alignment in the DMG, the PHB and even the Book of Exaulted Deeds all remind you that a character makes minor decisions everyday that might seem out of alignment, but only if you force them into a different context. The cloak is beneficial, for sure, but it wouldn't even be chaotic to choose not to wear it if God himself showed up and told you to. Just disobedient. Chaos is something deeper than a pouty attitude or simple stubbornness. To me, it sounded like the DM was using an OOG moment of indecision on your part, to punish your PC in-game. That's incredibly juvenile. He needs to be spanked.
Phrennzy 07-19-05, 04:36 PM	Buy a cloak of resistance +5 instead. Done and done. And it's cheaper.
Wenin 07-19-05, 04:54 PM	Man, reading this thread had me back in the mindset that this wasn't D&D, but Everquest. If you don't want your Paladin to be wearing the cloak, your DM should stuff it. On the other hand, the DM shouldn't adjust his game to allow your character to continue with the lower Charisma. If at some later time you run across a situation where your 18 Charisma just isn't cutting the mustard.... well then.... guess that Paladin should have been better prepared.
pres_man 07-19-05, 05:25 PM	Perhaps the Paladin sees it as a challenge, a test of his faith not to fall back on needing items so save himself. Ok, but I would say he would have to be consistent in this, if he has any other magic items that help save himself then he needs to rid himself of them. You either have faith or not. Is not taking a cloak illogical from looking at a paladin's abilities? Higher charisma for a paladin improves: -smite evil -divine grace -lay on hands -turn undead Lay on hands is the most compelling reason, the others directly related with attacking others or saving oneself, but lay on hands makes you better able to aid those in need (as well as yourself). Any LG character who doesn't value aiding others needs to serious question their alignment. and it would be blashpeme for an impure arcane magic item such as the cloak to aid in his god-granted abilities. Cloak of Charisma: Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, eagle’s splendor Eagle’s Splendor Transmutation Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Pal 2, Sor/Wiz 2 It need not be arcane magic item, it may very well be a divine one. Eagle splendor that the item is made from is a paladin spell. The cloak is beneficial, for sure, but it wouldn't even be chaotic to choose not to wear it if God himself showed up and told you to. Just disobedient. Chaos is something deeper than a pouty attitude or simple stubbornness. I'm pretty sure it is a chaotic act (disregarding authority), it is not enough for someone to become chaotic as a world viewpoint.
DragonDeadite 07-19-05, 05:41 PM	................I don't think I've ever posted this... but your DM is an idiot!!! I see no problem with playing a character that doesn't want to use an item to improve his abilities. I played a Sorcerer that refused to do the exact same thing for the pure and simple fact that he didn't want to APPEAR to be better, he wanted to ACTUALY be better! He passed over on several magic items that increased his CHA artificially and instead did his best to find Tombs that would increase his CHA permanently as well as pumping his CHA every four levels. Of course... this same character did whatever he could to boost his DEX, but that was more for protection and ranged touch attacks than to better his own skills as a Sorcerer. The DM needs to get off his high horse (funny that coming from me!) and realise that you're playing your character with a specific mind set and to just let you alone. If he DID cause your alignment to change, I would be out of there. Side note: I believe a paladin can be of any alignment to serve his god/goddess and would never cause the paladins to loose their abilities because of alignment change, but that's just me.
Bonzai 07-19-05, 05:46 PM	My initial gut reaction would be to tell the dm, that if he wanted to play the caracter for you, here is the character sheet, and to go to it. Otherwise, let you play him as you see fit. Lol, you could always steal Edna's little speech about Capes (the Incredibles), and tune itfor your needs.
Demortis 07-19-05, 06:23 PM	we had recently won a battle with quite a bit of loot. how much loot is this? if its enough to buy your own town, then id say get several tombs of +5 cha :D :D even if you can only buy 2, thats a +10! more then a cruddy +6, ha! :schemes::devil:
Regdren 07-19-05, 07:55 PM	Okay, I think that I need to clarify a few things in order to better represent both sides. First of all, as mentioned above, my DM would allow me to forego the cloak if I came up with a roleplaying reason not to use it. Since he's fairly lenient with that sort of thing, this is not really the main problem. The reason that this irritates me is that I feel, as some have already mentioned, that he is at least partially trying to run my character for me. He literally said that this refusal to get the cloak doesn't make any logical sense to him, so it would be chaotic. I consider interactions with other people to be the main reason for alignment change, rather than what items I do or do not equip (within reason; no evil equipment for me, thankyouverymuch). We talked about it a bit more, and he's said that if I looked at the optimization forum, there wouldn't be any high level paladins without a cloak of charisma, or similar magic item. It would be at the point where other paladins or similarly high-profile members of the order might look at me and ask "Where's your cloak?" and I'd need to have an answer for them. I find this ridiculous; the way I figured it would be that they judged paladins by their accomplishments, and that personal equipment would be mostly ignored so long as it wasn't too objectionable (see above). Then again, I'm not the one running this campagin, and as much as I might disagree, what the DM says goes. Pres_man, my paladin is usung a belt of strength, and I realize that it may very well be more consistent of my character if I un-equipped that as well. He also uses a Holy Avenger, but that provides a bit of a problem; it was loaned to him by the Order for the duration of this mission. Refusing to use it when it might be needed would literally be disobeying his superiors, so I think that'll have to stay. And in case anyone was wondering, the Avenger was deducted from the starting wealth because for all practical purposes it would be his for the duration of the campaign. We just figured that having it technically be the property of the church would be a neat roleplaying aspect since swords like that tend to have a history behind them. Demortis, let me put it to you this way: after all the loot was divided, my charater gave 100,000 GP and an almost-full Staff of Healing to his Paladin order and still had enough money that a cloak of charisma +6 would not be a huge purchase. Edit: on second thought, I might have been misleading with my response to Pres_man. I don't really feel like giving up the neat toys I already have; rather, I dislike the DM telling me to make RP excuses for not optimizing my character to the fullest extent. It's a matter of principle, if such a thing is possible with a roleplaying game.
celtredleg 07-19-05, 08:57 PM	So the paladins in the DMs world have access to the opimization boards???? I would really consider if this is the place I want to play. Is he going to tell you what colar of socks your paladin needs to wear??? Maybe he just wants to use you as sort of a DMPC, with you doing the bookkeeping for him. I would call his bluff. Dont take the cloak, lose the paladin abilitys, lose the avenger. He thought you where weak before??? Maybe he will love the newer weaker paladin HE has just created.
pres_man 07-19-05, 11:38 PM	Is he going to tell you what color of socks your paladin needs to wear??? Actually if he was to tell you that, he would have more ground to stand on. Often times paladin orders had a specific dress code they had to follow. Dont take the cloak, lose the paladin abilitys, lose the avenger. The OP never said the DM told him he would actually be punished for the decision, only that the DM considered it a chaotic act. A paladin can do chaotic acts on occasion, they just can't break their code. Now if the DM said, "You have to wear a green cloak as dictated by your paladin order, you might as well have one that is magic." And the player said, "I will not wear a cloak of any kind ever." Then there would probably be grounds for punishing the paladin, since he is disregarding his order's dictates.
celtredleg 07-19-05, 11:57 PM	Having worn red socks in Army Dress Blues I understand about the colar thing. Still feels like the DM really wants to control what the PC does. The way the OP said the DM made the "chaotic act" comment sure makes it seem as if it was intended as a punishment.
Ni! 07-20-05, 01:17 AM	Shoot you DM in the head with a hammer. How does your character even know about cloaks of charisma? Why did he just start thinking about it now? "Oh, look, I couldn't do something. I must immediately get a very expensive magic item,". It isn't like some IC priest said "We, the church of blah blah blah, reward your hard efforts with this cloak," Your DM just said "Do what I tell you or I'll change you alignment".
SeidonVanDolf 07-20-05, 03:36 AM	"And next, When DM's go Mad with Power, coming up on your Six o'clock news." :nonono: I do hate it when a DM gets crazy and tries to bully his players around like that. It is a sad day indeed when a player gets punished for not wanting to bolster his character beyond realistic limitations. :weep: My heart goes out to you, my friend. I think I speak for us all when I say I am truly disheartened by this. It gives we DM's a terribly bad rep. :plotting: Although it may be just a poor way of him trying to hint to you that you may be needing the cloak in the near future. He may have planted it for you. I would have a little talk with him about this. Unless of course he's done this before. If that is the case then tell him to stick his dictatorship up his a**...
Wenin 07-20-05, 03:14 PM	Regdren, from your description, your DM seems at least open to your thoughts on this matter. I'd explain to him that you aren't going to take the cloak, because it doesn't fit the feel of your character. You aren't wanting to play your character as an optimized Rollplaying character, but as a person. His RP reason for not wanting the cloak, is that he just simply doesn't like the texture of the thing, and it smells funny. =) Then go further to acknowledge that the DM is wanting to play a high powered game, and that you understand that the DM shouldn't lessen the difficulty of future encounters based on the lack of power within your Paladin.
tarkin 07-20-05, 05:03 PM	I think you misunderstood what the DM was doing. He is not giving you a penalty for not taking the item. He is giving you a penalty for BAD ROLEPLAYING. He specifically stated that "if you don't provide a role playing explanation".... That may or may not be a reasonable thing to do, it would depend on how you acted the rest of the time. If in general, you have consistently been role-playing poorly, then this is the last straw and he wants you to change. If in general you have have been doing a good job, then he screwed up.
Count Arioch the 28th 07-20-05, 05:31 PM	On one hand, I think your DM is being a little heavy-handed with this. One the other, I don't understand how you sruvived to epic with an 18 charisma, I've yet to see any paladins past 15 opr so with charisma lower than the mid to low twenties. I say your DM is being too easy on you in the fact that with a measly 18 charisma at level 20, your paladin should have died fifty times by now.
Regdren 07-20-05, 08:22 PM	After taking a longer, more objective look at this, I think I've blown this whole thing out of proportion. Not that I've exaggerated anything in my posts, but it's probably not worth fighting over since as some of you have said, it's pretty easy to come of with an excuse for not wearing the cloak. Thanks for everyone's advice. Count Arioch, I guess that's where our campaigns differ. My character has so far only died once. :D It was from rolling a natural 1 on a save vs. massive damage a few sessions ago. Since my character has caused some strife in the party I suggested letting my character go so I could make a new one, but the other players basically said "No. That's way too lame a death, shut up and let us resurrect you" so the paladin's still around. And as a side note, this is the first time I've ever seen a stat of 18 referred to as "measly."
WizardlyFriend 07-20-05, 08:45 PM	okay first of all say that youd rather give the cloak to someone isn't as charasmatic as you because they could use it more. you are a very charitable person remember. 2nd, id be worried OOG. why does the DM care that much if you wear it. either it is an intelligent item, a plot device, or cursed. < is my guess
Dartanel 07-20-05, 10:02 PM	I'm guessing this is his DM's first epic game. The DM probably cracked open the ELH, took a look at the monsters and did an :OMG! The second thing he did was probably head over to the CO boards to find out how to max his PCs so they don't 'plode upon contact with their first CR 21. I think the DM is just concerned that without the boosted CHA the Paladin is going to die a horrible screaming death in his first epic battle. Of course, threatening the PC with atonement for not optimizing his PC is a bit reactionary. But you can see where the DM was going with it. Personally, if I wanted the PC to have the +cha badly enough to threaten them with atonement, I would've just used the donation he made to the order to justify a 'blessing' (Slotless item of +6 Cha built into his body while he was praying for spells the next day) And it would cost less then what he gave to the order.