Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Auldrek 05-24-04, 02:21 AM	We are all pretty new to the game and I took armorcrafting. Today I finally get a chance to use it and we argue for about an hour about how it is done. For an example: Item = Banded Mail Cost = 250 gold DC = 15 ( I know its 16 but this is an example) So... I know I need to break the gold value down into silver 250 = 2500 Now I roll the die. With modifiers I get a 19 (sucess). I take the check result and multiply it times the DC. 19 x 15 = 285 What happens next seems to be the problem. I believe the text states to take THAT result (285) and multiply it times the DC (15). My DM believes that the word result in the text clearly indicates your ROLLED result so it would be 19 x 15 (again) NOT 285 x 15. Well.. you take the result of that check to see if it is equal to or greater than 2500 (for the item cost in silver). You can see the HUGE difference already I'm sure. So its either 4275 into 2500(which means I make the item in less than a week. OR Its 285 into 2500 which means I have MANY weeks to go to complete this item. The arguement here by the DM is that it seems ridiculous to him that you can make armor that fast. My point is simply that I think he is totally reading the rules wrong. Why would you multiply your Result check by your DC TWICE? It seems very clear to me that you take the RESULT from the previous instruction of multiplying your Result CHECK by your DC (19 x 15) = 285, then take your RESULT of that (285) and multiply that times your DC (15). Why the hell would you ignore the 285 at this pont and just use the 19 as the multiplier again? What sense does that make? Who would write instructions like that? Am I wrong or is this actually very complicated and I need to read things into it and somehow come up with the intentions of the game designers being to repeat a multiplication for....well no reason that I can see. Can anyone help me here and tell me how your suposed to use this skill please?
Brand Finbuck 05-24-04, 03:19 AM	The PHB wording is a bit confusing. "If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result X the DC equals the price of the item in SP..." The second result is referring to the 'check result' not the result of the multiplication. So yes, if you were crafting Full Plate (DC 18), and you check was a 34, your weekly progress is 612 silver out of 15,000. Personally I hate this method, because it takes AGES for the players to create items, specifically art items and the like (which I like to allow my players to do). Take for example a beatiful platinum tiara inlaid with sapphires worth 6000 gold. If the sapphires are worth half the price of the artwork, than the remaining 30000 silver worth can be tackled by a master jeweller with a total of +30 craft and a DC of 40 in about... 4 and a half months. I just don't have this much sedentary time in my campaign, and never will. I don't want it to take a character twelve sessions to finish this piece. And this character would likely be nearly 20th level with a bonus like that. I use a house method, allowing a character to complete (Character Level) x (Skill Ranks + Skill Focus + Racial Bonus) GP worth of work in a day. Perhaps I'm excessively generous, but I wanted my ranger to be able to craft his own Masterwork Mighty (+3) Composite Longbow in ten days, instead of ten weeks. The crafting times for some traps with the standard method would simply make me vomit. Crushing Wall Trap: Market Price 25,000gp. ... A team (6) of 15th level experts with a +20 trapmaking skill... Need 46 weeks to finish this trap. One character... Needs 5 years... gotta be joking.
Dragonteuthis 05-24-04, 07:02 AM	Sorry, Auldrek, but you're the one who's wrong here, as Brand pointed out above. You made 285 sp worth of progress that week. You've got about seven to eight weeks ahead of you. I've researched this topic, and actually the time estimates for weapons and armor is fairly accurate from a historical aspect. Modern methods are faster, of course, but many months to complete a masterwork sword isn't unrealistic. Sorry I can't help you.
Naeron 05-24-04, 07:19 AM	Originally posted by Brand Finbuck The PHB wording is a bit confusing. "If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result X the DC equals the price of the item in SP..." The second result is referring to the 'check result' not the result of the multiplication. So yes, if you were crafting Full Plate (DC 18), and you check was a 34, your weekly progress is 612 silver out of 15,000. Personally I hate this method, because it takes AGES for the players to create items, specifically art items and the like (which I like to allow my players to do). Take for example a beatiful platinum tiara inlaid with sapphires worth 6000 gold. If the sapphires are worth half the price of the artwork, than the remaining 30000 silver worth can be tackled by a master jeweller with a total of +30 craft and a DC of 40 in about... 4 and a half months. I just don't have this much sedentary time in my campaign, and never will. I don't want it to take a character twelve sessions to finish this piece. And this character would likely be nearly 20th level with a bonus like that. <snip>. No they are not joking and its probably a fairly accurate measure of how long it would take to produce such an item, those sorts of things were indeed tasks that took master craftsmen months to complete. For large items such as a crushing corridor trap there is nothing in the rules to say that you cannot divide the work among people rather than use assistants. So with that +20 trapmaking skill you could get 1 expert working on each section of the tunnel - that would be 540gp a week so yes it takes most of a year to complete something that is a major feat of engineering. Rigging a tunnel so that it can be collapsed is easy. Rigging a mechanical trap that can be triggerred, close, open and work time after time is difficult, firstly you need a source of energy to work the mechanism, then you need to harness it, etc etc.
Brand Finbuck 05-24-04, 01:06 PM	Originally posted by Naeron No they are not joking and its probably a fairly accurate measure of how long it would take to produce such an item, those sorts of things were indeed tasks that took master craftsmen months to complete. It may well be, but as I noted, I house ruled this because I don't want it to take players ages and ages to complete these tasks. I have better things to do than cover two and half year down times for building a trap in the PC's stronghold.
Auldrek 05-24-04, 01:43 PM	Well....that sucks! :( "If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result X the DC equals the price of the item in SP..." I was an english major in college. When you take those sentences together, one following the other, it seemed very evident to me that the word result in the second sentence refered to the result of following the actions prescribed in the first sentence. I mean... why not just say check result again instead of result? Or Why not just say If the check succeeds AND the result X the DC equals the price of the item in SP.. Just think we paid money for these books............. Oh, futhermore. We are playing a game right? I mean who would really ever use this skill if it took months to complete something. I mean in months I could probably afford much much better armor. I can see it now....working on an item for 4 months while we continue to adventure, gaining 4 levels, gaining, thousands of gold, gaining the exact armor you wanted but with a +2 modifier. It is hard enough getting a week or two taken out of adventuring let alone 4 months or more. Throw in the need to have an actual working forge into this and it could take a year to complete your item. Ya my dm also says the use of artisan tools is just not enough to craft armor. I actually have to agree with him on that. Well thanks for your input. I still wonder what is correct here tho.
Gandilas 05-24-04, 10:31 PM	Hello. That's why you need to somehow get +16 to your roll, there are a variety of things you can do to get this at a somewhat early level such as MW tool (forge), feats, int boosting item, as many assistants as your DM will allow, skill boosting items, synergistic skills, etc, etc... You then take ten to automatically get a 26 each week. Use the optional rule to increase the DC of the armor by 10. At that point you can make 26*26 sps per week of work, which is 676. Armor is done in less than 4 weeks. If you can get a +22 to your skill check, you can make a suit of Banded in 3 weeks. +26 and you can increase the DC of the armor by another 10, make 1296 sps a week and finish in 2 weeks. Crafting anything more than ammunition/light armor DOES take a long time.
TieraStarr 05-25-04, 12:24 AM	You should always take 10 on crafting checks (and use the optional rule to increase the DC by multiples of 10 as high as practical). If you cannot succeed by taking 10, then you should buy the item from someone else. It is simply not worth it in terms of time and resources.
Naeron 05-25-04, 06:06 AM	Originally posted by TieraStarr You should always take 10 on crafting checks (and use the optional rule to increase the DC by multiples of 10 as high as practical). If you cannot succeed by taking 10, then you should buy the item from someone else. It is simply not worth it in terms of time and resources. Partially true, Crafting is certainly an option to take IF your PC has the time to spare already. Consider a Lving campaign, time passes in line with the passing of real time and a character can often end up with a reasonable period of downtime between 2 adventures. Crafting does allow you to gain significant savings on the cost of some items. Also as you can put a task aside and continue it later it allow you to utilise shorter breaks between adventures. As a hard and fast example I have a Ftr/Cleric in an online campaign, during a period when I was unable to play freely. So my PC got about 2 adventures in a year of the game world. In the interim he crafted Mithral Full Plate and saved himself the difference between the 10,500 market price and the 3,500 raw materials cost. Even adding in living expenses (1gp/day) he made a "profit" of over 6,000gp allowing him to have armour that he would not normally have been able to afford and by selling the Adamantine Breastplate he crafted before he could afford to have the new armour enchanted.
Auldrek 05-25-04, 11:48 AM	hmm interesting. So why not make everything you can masterwork to then? I mean if armor masterwork componant costs only 150 gold and you can take 10. In the grand scheme of things you might as well since it is going to take a long time anyway. I guess I can do this but it would really require me to track how much time was spent adventuring and make a point of constantly harassing my DM to remind him. The problem is that he wants me to do the work in a forge. I cannot really carry a forge around with me now can I? Unless I can convince him that just having the artisan tools is enough. I do not recall the rules saying you need anything more than this. Is that true?
Zilred 05-25-04, 01:35 PM	Originally posted by Auldrek The problem is that he wants me to do the work in a forge. I cannot really carry a forge around with me now can I? Unless I can convince him that just having the artisan tools is enough. I do not recall the rules saying you need anything more than this. Is that true? It certainly stands to reason that you would need a forge. You can't shape the metal with just a hammer (unless you're using gold or tin) and you'll need something stronger than a campfire to make the steel (or what have you) shapeable. As for the long crafting times, I should say why not? Historical reasoning aside, the Item Creation feats taken by caster classes take comparable ammounts of time, not to mention the XP on top of it. Items can be enchanted as they are made according to the DMG, so why not do both simultaneously? However, the Craft Skill is highly disappointing IMO. By the time you get the ranks to actually make something quickly, the wizard crafts Gloves of Fabricate and can do it all in a day with just the raw materials. To keep it valuable, a Craft check is required to see how well the wearer of the Gloves forms the desired item.
eRaz0r 05-25-04, 02:32 PM	That's the problem with a levelling system with skill-caps. The system doesn't support a master craftsman without him being high-level, and how did that master blacksmith get the XP to become a high level craftsman ? In reality it does take many months to create armor. Even with todays materials, armorsmiths (and there are still some out there) take a long time to create decent works, so in this case, I wouldn't complain much, if I were you :) Oh, and as to your english : I agree it would have been clearer for them to have said "If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If this equals the price of the item in SP..." And finally - the Craft skill is based on the simplistic view that the market price of an item has a high correlation with the time it takes to construct. This is not necessarily the case. A lead chain necklace is about as easy to construct as a gold necklace, but worth far less. The time it takes to make the lead and gold behave in the same way is probably about the same (they're both soft metals), yet the Gold necklace would take many times longer to create under the DnD Craft system because the final product is far more expensive. This makes no sense.
Auldrek 05-25-04, 05:35 PM	Well I think my final point is basically that taking months to craft things ingame plus having to work in a forge basically makes it so that you can never make anything good. I mean...what campaign is going to focus on crafting skills? My friends would kill me if I said no lets not go adventure I need to stay in town and use this forge for 4-5 months to make a new chain shirt! Basically...its never going to happen. Sometimes realism detracts from the game...this is one of those times.
eudas 05-25-04, 06:37 PM	<annoyed response> if your friends are such ADD adrenaline junkies that they can't wait a few minutes for the DM & crafting player to roll a few dice, and then have the DM say "Ok so several months pass uneventfully; Bob spent his time making a chain shirt, Jane spent her time feeding poor homeless woodland animals and Ray spent his time learning a few new mage spells.", before dropping the latest plot hook... well, yeah that's a problem. but it's not a crafting problem. Sorry you can't pop out a full plate armor in 3 days. <possibly useful response> Here's another consideration; have you considered using assistants? "Aid another" action on a craft(armorsmithing) roll? Get enough people helping and it kicks up your skill roll, thereby increasing the sp/week that you can finish, therefore cutting down the time spent on crafting. eudas
eRaz0r 05-25-04, 06:54 PM	Lets take a quick look at the crafting system. Say you have two items that cost the same to buy. Firstly we have a complex item. It's got a craft DC of 20 Secondly we have a simple item with a craft DC of 12. Lets finally assume that I've just rolled a 20 (perhaps I've got +10 and am taking 10 on the roll) On the complex item, I've made 20x 20 =400 sp worth of progress. On the simple item, I've made 20x12 = 240 sp worth of progress. Remember, these items are the same price... So with exactly the same craft check I will finish the more difficult item first. Anyone else see a problem with that ? The Craft system in DnD is tooled around the assumption that complex items are always more expensive than simple ones. Also, it's skewed towards items which are priced according to utility rather than other measures of value such as beauty, or the value of the base materials. (gold vs lead example I used above).
lantzer 05-25-04, 06:57 PM	I like the crafting rules. If you don't want to spend the time, don't make it masterwork. That's where a lot of the time comes in. Its even <gasp> fairly realistic. This is all hand work, people. I visited a couple of cathedrals in spain when I was there, and some of the bishop's embroidered robes took _years_ to finish. Nuns ruined their eyesight working on just one robe most of their 'career'. My mom does Amerindian fingerweaving at historical rendevous. A single pair of garters can take a while. Heck, ask my wife how long she's been working on her cross-stitch. If every adventurer can bang out glorious armor/weapons/tools/jewelry quickly in their spare time, who needs professional master craftsmen? It actually doesn't require a lot of levels to make a master craftsman. Take a low level Expert with good tools, their best stat in Intelligence, maxed Craft(whatever), and Skill Focus(Craft). If you feel like it, add a few apprentices doing Assist Other checks against DC 10 to help out. And even with the huge amounts of time, some PCS find the time to craft. How? Depends on the craft. Small, portable crafts are favorite. Woodcarving, Embroidery, Finger-weaving etc. can be worked on as part of an adventurer's schedule, 4-8 hours per day. It can depend on the campaign as well. A game with lots of down-time is perfect for aspiring crafters. In my 3.0 SpellJammer game we had, in our PC crew, a carpenter, blacksmith, armorer, silversmith, jeweler, painter, and tailor/seamstress. I've heard of another game where a PC was a brewer. Now, if you don't have time to craft, I suggest contracting out to professionals. By the way, the enchanting usually takes far less time than the creation of the physical item.
eudas 05-25-04, 11:50 PM	Originally posted by eRaz0r Lets take a quick look at the crafting system. Say you have two items that cost the same to buy. Firstly we have a complex item. It's got a craft DC of 20 Secondly we have a simple item with a craft DC of 12. Lets finally assume that I've just rolled a 20 (perhaps I've got +10 and am taking 10 on the roll) On the complex item, I've made 20x 20 =400 sp worth of progress. On the simple item, I've made 20x12 = 240 sp worth of progress. Remember, these items are the same price... So with exactly the same craft check I will finish the more difficult item first. Anyone else see a problem with that ? The Craft system in DnD is tooled around the assumption that complex items are always more expensive than simple ones. Also, it's skewed towards items which are priced according to utility rather than other measures of value such as beauty, or the value of the base materials. (gold vs lead example I used above). your example above is faulty; you failed to specify the total cost in sp that each item costs. it is entirely likely that 240sp in progress on the "simple" item is a higher percentage of total progress than 400sp is for the "complex" item. value of the base materials is quite a factor; smithing steel is easier than adamantium, and therefore does not require a masterwork component to the work. The lack of a masterwork component cuts down the total time used crafting by a not negligible amount. and finally, not only 1) beauty is subjective, and 2) beauty is very likely a significant part of the masterwork component of an item (which is already accounted for in the existing system) but 3) if beauty is so very important, modify the crafting function such that you add a "beauty" component, or some such, so that that particular variable has more influence. really, though, i think that you are making much ado about nothing. eudas
eRaz0r 05-26-04, 07:49 PM	Actually Eudas, I *did* specify the costs of the two items. I said they were the same price. I just failed to mention the exact sp amount. You must have missed that. Then I said "The Craft system in DnD is tooled around the assumption that complex items are always more expensive than simple ones." You missed that too. :) My example is not faulty. It displays exactly the faulty assumption in the Crafting rules. Let me spell it out again. This time I'll show you the costs. Both items are worth 1000 sp. The DC of the complex item is 20. The DC of the simple item is 12 I have skill of 10 and take 10 on my roll = 20 on my check After one week I have completed 20x20 = 400 sp or 40% of the complex item. After one week I have completed 12x20 = 240 sp or 24% of the simple item. It will take 3 weeks to complete the DC20 complex item and 5 weeks to complete the DC12 simple one. Still don't see a problem ? Let me reiterate, with emphasis... The Craft system in DnD is tooled around the assumption that complex items are always more expensive than simple ones. And finally, let us forget the whole beauty thing for a second. The Craft System also fails to account for materials very well. This is seen most often with items that are of artistic nature (jewelry etc) where the materials are costly and complexity of the item has nothing to do with its worth, nor its utility. In all cases, materials that are more costly because of scarcity or demand but which are no harder to work with than more common materials adversely affect the time to create an item. Here's another example. In this example I'll make some Banded mail out of Copper and then some out of Gold. No one would do this, but lets do it anyway.. Here are my assumptions. 1/ Working Copper is about as hard as working Gold. (Copper and Gold have the same melting point and similar malleability, but Gold is over twice as dense.. so I'm not sure if this is completely true, but it's close enough for me). 2/ Copper is worth 1/100th the price of gold by weight. (This is the price of coinage difference, but it's not necessarily the case that actual work-grade copper ingots are worth 1/100th the same weight of gold - but again, close enough). 3/ The DC of an item represents how hard it is to make (it's complexity in real life.) 4/ The More difficult an item is to make the longer it usually takes to complete (in real life) So here is our banded mail... Banded Mail : Copper (Average Quality) DC 16, 2500 copper pieces worth Banded Mail : Gold (Average Quality) DC 16 2500 gold pieces worth. converting to silver pieces... 250 sp for the Copper Banded Mail and 25000 sp for the Gold Banded Mail. Assuming I'm taking 10 and have at least +6 to my Craft check (DC 16) I will take 10 times as long to make the Gold Banded Mail as the Copper despite the fact that they are equally hard to make (DC is the same, Gold and Copper are similar materials for this purpose). So here we reveal the other faulty assumption in the Crafting rules : The Market Price of an item correlates directly to the difficulty of making that item. The corollary of this is that expensive materials are always harder to work with, which completely denies expense due to scarcity.
eudas 05-27-04, 11:14 AM	all right, you've come back with some good clarifications and examples. I will agree that the crafting system is not completely accurate, and you seem to have good reason to posit that "The Craft system in DnD is tooled around the assumption that complex items are always more expensive than simple ones." In general, though, I think that you can agree that that's a reasonable assumption around which to base a generic construction mechanic. Obviously, they didn't want to have to come up with separate craft mechanics for many different types of items -- they wanted a one-size-fits-all mechanic. I do have one question, though, and that is: why would the complex item and the simple item have the same price? Granted, if you look around at different items enough, you can always find 2 that have the same price, but they're almost always going to be very different types of items, so one has to wonder how accurate the comparison is still. Even so, I think that the Illustration of the banded mail is an interesting one. I think what it all comes down to though is what I posted above -- they wanted one-size-fits-all, to keep things simple, and you want "realistic" (for whatever definition of realistic you care to put forth) -- mutually exclusive desires. Simple vs Accurate. In the end, I think you're going to have to rework the crafting mechanic and houserule to use your version in your games. Other than that, I don't know what to tell you. I still kind of think that it's "much ado about nothing" -- it works "good enough" for most purposes. (Unless your character is a level x Expert jeweler... *shrug*) eudas
Krelios 05-27-04, 11:33 AM	I mean...what campaign is going to focus on crafting skills? My friends would kill me if I said no lets not go adventure I need to stay in town and use this forge for 4-5 months to make a new chain shirt! Basically...its never going to happen. I would call it roleplaying and be happy my character had a chance to relax and not be in life-threatening situations for 4-5 months. My characters are not warmongers who only exist for combat, if a PC needs 4-5 months of downtime, it takes maybe 15 minutes of real time to resolve and we move on. The only problem with the crafting rules is that the value of materials is directly proportional to the time it takes to craft. Items should have a DC based on categories of items, not just "simple or complex" and materials should have a modifier to those DCs. You could even group the materials by "workability" to make things easier. An example (with numbers pulled from nowhere) could be like this: Simple Items/Tools DC 10 Complex Items/Tools DC 15 Simple/Martial Weapons DC 12 Exotic Weapons DC 16 Simple Armor* DC 12 Complex Armor** DC 16 Cloth/Wood/Steel DC +0 Soft Metals DC -2 Hard Metals DC +2 Exotic Materials DC +4 *Simple Armors would be armors with large, single pieces like leather or breastplate. **Complex Armors would be armors with many pieces like chain or full plate. Of course, this example is far from complete, but progress would be made based on an "extended check" where the actual value of the materials had nothing to do with the crafting time. They simply cost more. Using the extended test rules from StarWars d20 might work, just up the DCs by about 40 or so (don't panic before you look at those rules).
KangTheCallipygian 05-27-04, 01:37 PM	I think there are good reasons why it takes forever to craft stuff in D&D, even aside from what people have posted about real-life crafting times for armor/weapons, etc. Whatever problems exist with the crafting rules, one thing is true: it is generally expected to be done by people who do so for a living, day in and day out. In other words, making good quality armor is generally a career, not a hobby. Realistically speaking, an adventurer by trade, who rarely if ever takes more than a day or 2 to rest and recuperate and enjoy the spoils of that last victory between perilous missions, will not only burn out on the whole risking-life-and-limb thing before too long, but also won't likely have time to develop a mastery of the art of crafting to any great extent if they do somehow manage to keep up this breakneck pace. This much seems obvious, at least to me. What could such a PC's in-character reasons be for even having any significant crafting ability, beyond anything they may have learned before taking up adventuring? How can there be such constant adventure possibilities in existence that close by on a consistant basis anyhow, and if there are, then why would anyone live in such a dangerous area? I know, I know, valid reasons could exist, but my point is that it shouldn't realistically be the norm the world over. (certain worlds and some posters here will undoubtedly disagree, as always) I've always just assumed there normally are a few weeks of downtime at least, even in the most hack'n'slashiest campaigns, between (big) adventures, even if they don't get mentioned during game time (unless of course your DM is a nut for accurate day-to-day calendar-watching even when it makes little difference ruleswise), which leaves time for dabbling in crafting if a PC is interested in doing that, but they shouldn't expect it to produce as much for them as it does for the guy down the street in town who spends every day doing so for a living. You should at least have to spend some time on the road every so often, lest you run out of mosters to kill in your area eventually. Assuming they don't get you first... I'm pretty sure you could get a portable forge though; maybe something that gets towed around on a horse-drawn wagon of some sort - there may be something like this in the A&EG. Then, while you're traveling between adventures, to dungeons, or wherever, you can pass the time by working on that special item you've always wanted to make for yourself or one of your other party members. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel it's a little unrealistic to expect anyone to be BOTH a professional adventurer AND a master craftsman, capable of whipping off a new masterwork longsword to use against each new enemy... Unless they take the necessary downtime, not only needed for crafting specific items, but for practicing/maintaing/developing their crafting abilities (or they're old enough to have switched careers a few times, I suppose). So I think it takes a long time both because it is realistic, as others have said, and also to keep it mainly as an activity suited for NPCs. It still leaves open the possibility for PCs to dabble in crafting to some extent if they like it for RP reasons or really need to save their GPs, which seems only fair... at least to me. "Who would really ever use this skill if it took months to complete something?" - The simple answer to this question is: NPCs, mainly. Kang
eRaz0r 05-28-04, 02:55 PM	Eudas : Well it's certainly "good enough" if you don't have anyone who uses it. If Adventurers rarely bother to make anything, then you don't really need a system at all. If adventurers want to concentrate on being crafters (and there are plenty of stories of the hero making his own sword to use against an enemy), then the system should be useful. I didn't say I wanted realism - but I do expect consistency. (Edit: actually, I think I might want more realism... but it's the fact that the results don't always make sense that bugs me). Lets take a less arbitrary example : Breastplate : AC +5. Therefore DC 15. Cost 200 gp Splintmail : AC +6 : Therefore DC 16, Cost 200 gp. You have Craft (ArmorSmith) +10 and take 10 on your roll. After one week you have complete 15x20 = 300 sp of the Breastplate and 320 sp of the Splintmail. You will finish the Splintmail first. The argument would be that the Splintmail isn't as hard to make as the Breastplate, but the DC is higher simply because it's more protective. Then I would say "So DC doesn't reflect Difficulty?" And furthermore, the Craft skill specifically states that it uses the same mechanic for all things, but it ignores those items which cost more because they are made out of more valuable things, instead of being more difficult to craft. Did you note that all the examples given are of standard arms and armor (and alchemy). The Craft mechanic is adequate (with a few aberrations) for making those items, but falls down for anything outside it. If you think your characters won't ever work with precious metals or unusual items then the Craft system is perfectly adequate. But in any game where crafting is more than just a skill listed on the character sheet, your players are going to start to wonder why it takes ten times as long to make a gold necklace than a silver one, or why they have to know how much a painting is worth before they start painting it, or why complex things are produced at a faster rate than simple ones.
Edward 05-29-04, 07:07 PM	An additional problem with the crafting mechanics. The value of raw materials is proportional to the market value. When creating a small item of intricate workmanship (eg. Jewellery) or a simple wooden structure (eg log cabin in wooded aria) this is unlikely to be true. Also in a world where there is an average amount of hireable magic many wizards will work as smiths. The casting of a 5th level spell (fabricate) by a 9th level caster is worth 450gp on the open market. The profit for crafting non magical full plate is 1000gp. This profit margin dose not account for the fact that you have less wastage and no fuel costs using fabricate and you can probably charge a significant premium based on the fact that you can deliver the knight his full plate today rather than in 3-6 months. As to those that would use assistants to cut the time down remember you have to pay them as skilled labourers (2sp a day I think) this will cut into your savings significantly. I believe the crafting rules work fine for weapons and armour. Acceptably for alchemical items and need the GM to juge most other items on a case by case basis. As to what crafts a player should take. Not much usually. I take some to represent weapon & armour maintenance. A am thinking of a gnome with jewellery as a hobby. Moderate level wizard or sorc at least withe fabricate. Turns a GP into an intricate token to express his thanks to people. Of cause he would spend time practicing. Edward