Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maerdash 03-09-05, 02:12 PM	Ok heres my problem i have a female player who is both new and an excellent inspired player (blew my mind to :P ). She has been saving cash since game start (started level 1 they are at level 14 now) she took her bundles of dough and purchased land rights, so now she has a village of about 600 people, shes hiring workers from outside the village to build a small ship yard, planing constuction of a fishing fleet, warehouse for preperation and distribution, and a small lumber company for lumber to build her ships and for sell. Now ive managed to figure out all the costs and she does have enough gold for her buisness ventures (she's using some highly creative spell applications to save money). What I cant figure out is how many pounds of fish 6 keel boats can bring in on a given day, how much lumber 100 men can produce in a day, or how much money she'll get from her buisness ventures, I want to be fair but at the same time im a little worried she's going to quickly outstripe my other players in terms of sheer wealth. Please help
Crusher Nate 03-09-05, 02:28 PM	You could simplify the process by having her make a Profession skill roll every month. Just give her gold pieces equal to her total check. A commoner lives on, what, 1 gp a month? So 25 or 30 gp a month is actually a lot of money. Certainly not enough to break the bank, though. And keep in mind that not all of the money she rakes in can go into her purse. She has taxes and salaries to pay, materials to buy, basic maintenance costs, etc. Not to mention any costs involved in sending her the money, or storing it until she can get it. There were no interest-paying banks in medieval times because the feudal economy couldn't support the idea. The results of the check I'm recommending would represent net profits above and beyond all these costs.
Morphey 03-09-05, 02:31 PM	since i wanted to do almost the same thing, i kind a like the idea of your player. Remember that all kind of things can happen to slow her little money making. The town could be attack , so she s gonna need bulding a small army , maybe pirate could attack,or a church would want to instal it self in town wanting donation..etc. etc. you see my point. ( a theif guild could install itself to if there word of money in town to) and so on and on
lukelightning 03-09-05, 02:40 PM	I would just figure out some amount of money/month that I am comfortable with giving her character; remember that she might have to pay taxes to the local government, etc. What are the other player characters up to? Hopefully they are involved, otherwise the players might get bored if the focus of the game shifts to her business. There would be plenty of opportunities: a fighter/ranger type could set up a militia/watch, a thiefy rogue could pre-emptively take control of the local crime, a cleric or druid could set up a temple, etc.
Maerdash 03-09-05, 02:48 PM	my other players decided to make for the bank to though they used followers from leadership to take over the towns they wanted (villages outside of any national borders) so everyone is on board with the idea, ive figured out operation costs and how much she has to pay her workers, there are no taxes and with 130+ classed leveled followers via leadership she had the military might to install her self as the defacto lord of the village without a fight, fro some reason i dont see her paying tithes to a church, there is no strong religion set up in this part of the worl just a few small temples. I do want to be fair, her operational costs are somewhere in excess of 3,000 gp a month and i dont want to screw everybody by saying you earn 100 gp a month off your huge buisness investments (they gave up a LOT of gold)
Zendu 03-09-05, 02:51 PM	The rule of thumb i heard once is any buisness venture makes about 1/10 its starting price every year. Of cource if shes not there you might edit that around a little bit.
fdnickerson 03-09-05, 03:35 PM	According to the Stronghold Builder's Guide, each income source should provide not more than 5% and usually between 1-2% of the stronghold's original cost per year. Now, these situations don't exactly parallel because the player's haven't really built a stronghold but I'd give them about 4-10% per year, because it seems like she's deriving income from more than one source (ships, fish,lumber,and trading).
eRaz0r 03-09-05, 03:48 PM	But the cost of an income source in the SBG merely adds to the cost of the Strong hold. It's a pure abstraction and doesn't reflect the costs of running the income source. Why does a more powerful Stronghold nearby a mine get to make more money out of the mine than a small hut ? Possibly because the larger more powerful stronghold can attract more or a better class of workers, and can make more off the source by charging more for protection etc. It's all so vague. So since an income source adds 10% to the cost of the Stronghold and returns 3% of the cost per year, you could argue that the setup costs of the income source are that 10% and the return is therefore 30% of that. Or you could argue that the SHBG doesn't have enough information to help us make a guesstimate. :) My advice : forget about the ca$h. Unfortunately, this sort of advice doesn't gel with DnD very well, since character wealth is one of the more fundamental aspects of a character. The problem with counting pennies, is that it's a game, not an economics lesson. The sad fact of DnD economics : it's far more lucrative to go kill monstrous hordes for their stuff than labour honourably in a civilized land. Somehow these barbaric cultures based on might=right, with barely any culture or economy to speak of, manage to amass mountains of cash and magic, but the average civilized peasant makes a pittance. Where does all the actual wealth come from? Who can afford to make a shortsword +1 ? Who can afford to buy one? Only adventurers. 90% of small businesses fail in the real world. Fish + lumber. Where's the demand? Where are her markets ? Even if she ramps production through the roof and hires a bunch of peasants and sailors, who is going to buy her stuff ? Basic comestibles and unfinished goods are not going to make her money back, especially things like fish (which spoil quickly, limiting transportability) and wood (which is one of the most common resources to most temperate cultures). Furthermore, while both of these count as "renewable" resources, she runs the risk she can over-produce and stress the ecology. It's not a big risk at medieval tech levels, but add magic and things get harder to predict. Also, if she can find a market for this stuff, it's probably flooded by competition anyway. Maybe if she could use magic to preserve the fish and transport it quickly across vast distances to landlocked cities where it would be a luxury item, she could make a killing there... One guideline is : the more skill or human contact required to make something, or the further it has to travel, the more it's worth. Don't be afraid to tell her that her scheme will not net much profit.. She's basically getting you to do all the hard work as it is - other than spending her cash building this stuff, what did the player have to do ? Did she clear the forest of danger ? Did she have to go find the shipwright and convince him to work for her ? You can make this a fun game by putting obstacles in the way. Maybe the shipwrights go on strike for more pay, or she finds the competition is unhappy about her setting up shop. In short - there's no simple answer, and I'd gloss over any money the business is making unless she wants to spend it on something personal (like more gear). Then she has to cash in some of her capital.. this means she has to sell some assets (the business' profit really should go back into building it's capital up if she's smart. Hiring more people, securing more markets, getting better tools etc, etc.).
Vatras 03-09-05, 04:49 PM	In regard with your original questions: - The catch would depend upon fish population and methods of catching them, but lets assume they are net fishing a standard area. That would amount to about 400 pounds per boat per day. - Judging by what we did in the army, 100 lumberjacks can be expected to produce 100 tree trunks a day (it takes a while to get rid of the branches and transporting them to a camp, aside from the actual cutting down). Anyone who works ingame on getting money, and manages to set up some business can also expect some return. It can now and then serve as plot hook and the income may vary (forest fires, storms, insects, etc.), but its better to leave the thing alone instead of looking for ways how to ruin it (like some here seem to do). If economics are to play a role in your campaign, better overhaul the system. An easy way is to put a price to the gold piece in our monetary system and go from there, as it will be comprehensible. I have done for one campaign once a huge list of prices for various things, because my players set up a merchandising enterprise based upon sea trade (figuring costs for the men and provisions, bonuses for swift journeys, tables with prices for the usual trading commodities, random tables for price changes, random tables for mishaps on sea and in harbour, miscellaneous happenings like pirates and monsters, profit on an average journey, and so on). It can be fun to go over the whole thing with your players once (if they all partake) and to set up the whole thing. But then its best to let it alone (unless players interest is high) and handle things with a few dice rolls to determine monthly/yearly proceedings, unless you plan some adventure involving the business.
Razoreface 03-09-05, 04:54 PM	The fun part comes when you start to wonder when, and how many, people come of their own accord because they see an opportunity to start supporting businesses in and around her little village. ;) If she's got 600 people settled and working, that's a town big enough to be an attraction to others, especially if it seems to be prospering.
fdnickerson 03-09-05, 05:00 PM	But the cost of an income source in the SBG merely adds to the cost of the Strong hold. It's a pure abstraction and doesn't reflect the costs of running the income source. Why does a more powerful Stronghold nearby a mine get to make more money out of the mine than a small hut ? Possibly because the larger more powerful stronghold can attract more or a better class of workers, and can make more off the source by charging more for protection etc. It's all so vague. So since an income source adds 10% to the cost of the Stronghold and returns 3% of the cost per year, you could argue that the setup costs of the income source are that 10% and the return is therefore 30% of that. Or you could argue that the SHBG doesn't have enough information to help us make a guesstimate. :) My advice : forget about the ca$h. Unfortunately, this sort of advice doesn't gel with DnD very well, since character wealth is one of the more fundamental aspects of a character. The problem with counting pennies, is that it's a game, not an economics lesson. The sad fact of DnD economics : it's far more lucrative to go kill monstrous hordes for their stuff than labour honourably in a civilized land. Somehow these barbaric cultures based on might=right, with barely any culture or economy to speak of, manage to amass mountains of cash and magic, but the average civilized peasant makes a pittance. Where does all the actual wealth come from? Who can afford to make a shortsword +1 ? Who can afford to buy one? Only adventurers. 90% of small businesses fail in the real world. Fish + lumber. Where's the demand? Where are her markets ? Even if she ramps production through the roof and hires a bunch of peasants and sailors, who is going to buy her stuff ? Basic comestibles and unfinished goods are not going to make her money back, especially things like fish (which spoil quickly, limiting transportability) and wood (which is one of the most common resources to most temperate cultures). Furthermore, while both of these count as "renewable" resources, she runs the risk she can over-produce and stress the ecology. It's not a big risk at medieval tech levels, but add magic and things get harder to predict. Also, if she can find a market for this stuff, it's probably flooded by competition anyway. Maybe if she could use magic to preserve the fish and transport it quickly across vast distances to landlocked cities where it would be a luxury item, she could make a killing there... One guideline is : the more skill or human contact required to make something, or the further it has to travel, the more it's worth. Don't be afraid to tell her that her scheme will not net much profit.. She's basically getting you to do all the hard work as it is - other than spending her cash building this stuff, what did the player have to do ? Did she clear the forest of danger ? Did she have to go find the shipwright and convince him to work for her ? You can make this a fun game by putting obstacles in the way. Maybe the shipwrights go on strike for more pay, or she finds the competition is unhappy about her setting up shop. In short - there's no simple answer, and I'd gloss over any money the business is making unless she wants to spend it on something personal (like more gear). Then she has to cash in some of her capital.. this means she has to sell some assets (the business' profit really should go back into building it's capital up if she's smart. Hiring more people, securing more markets, getting better tools etc, etc.). I completely agree that the SHBG doesn't really give enough information for what she wants to do. I was just looking for something that would give us a basis for comparison. Personally, I'd just give them say between 5-10% annual profit with an occasional loss just to make things more interesting. That's much easier than creating some kind of fictional economy.
Stafir Ortnev 03-09-05, 05:25 PM	First things first..this is in the wrong forum..you want "What's a DM to do." not "Whats a player to do." I guess you actually just miss posted..but anyway. But with that said. Looks rather interesting..you are best off just figuring out a good return rate..when things go normal (not optimal). Then figure out how much extra can be pulled off..and not affect business (incase the players want anything). Maybe..oh..let her have the equiv of one monster encounter worth of loot..thats suitable for a level 14 char. Then try to work it to only pop in once every few sessions. The real payoff, however, should be the plothook opportunities. A big, brand new, city. Expands off of what she built..she has the main business there..but...an entire city grows up around it...this is ripe for starting something interesting..perhaps her char would wind up something like a mayor? It'd draw in some of the seedy individuals....you have a wealth of plothooks..and ways for her to benefit..that only come around because she owns it..(in other words..it provides money indirectly..because her, and the party, earn it by handling situations that pop up because of the place she owns). I can see this game going in interesting directions.
Razoreface 03-09-05, 05:39 PM	That's another great point. A burgeoning new settlement has sprung up. Not just those all pure of heart are going to be attracted to it. And where is it exactly? Historically a lot of people have settled places only to find themselves rather unwelcome by some unbeknownst but already established group.
eRaz0r 03-09-05, 06:00 PM	I completely agree that the SHBG doesn't really give enough information for what she wants to do. I was just looking for something that would give us a basis for comparison. Personally, I'd just give them say between 5-10% annual profit with an occasional loss just to make things more interesting. That's much easier than creating some kind of fictional economy. Well a fictional economy can be fun, but DnD's economics just don't make sense for the most part - so I agree, it's better not to worry about it at all and just wave your hands and say "You're Rich!" But since wealth is so important to a PC in DnD, and Character Wealth by Level governs a lot of what PCs are capable of, the average player response is "How Rich?" followed by "How can I turn that cash into Items or Power?" The problem with this type of Rich vs Adventurer Rich is that the regular adventurer has most of his wealth on his person. This stuff is tied up in businesses and the player wants to get something out of it. DnD doesn't reward that kind of thinking - there're few rules concerning mercantile profit. That's because the DnD economy pretty much assumes that all the real cash is made through adventuring. Look at what the average craftsman makes a year. Look at what you can expect to pay for a decent meal or lodgings. This is a pittance compared to what you can expect from looting the average monster of CR 8+. So trying to work out details like how much fish and how much lumber is self-defeating. Either you work out the real numbers and find out the PC is making 400 gp a year profit, or you have to fudge the economy and make it more vibrant and soon you've got rules for inflation and currency devaluation ... which leads to stupid problems later. Basically, it's not worth it to go into business in the DnD economy unless the DM is willing to jump through some hoops, or the player is willing to just trust the DM when he says "You're Rich" and not try to account for every penny so she can cash out and buy uber magic stuff.
psionichamster 03-09-05, 07:22 PM	seeing as the player is focusing on consumables and building materials, the "best" thing to do (IMHO, of course) is to let that extra $$$ get diverted into improving/enlarging the current settlement sure, the leadership people are loyal to the bone, and they'll probably serve as a good "core" of workers/defenders... but what about their spouses, cousins, and the like. all these people would also like to have a steady source of food/income, and defense against the myriad threats (monsters, mostly) that abound BUT... unless the player wants to have her character stay in this area, she's not going to be directing the growth/profit of her business. basically, she's hired people who she trusts, and gone off to her primary business (slaying and looting, if i'm not mistaken) this way, you can play it either nicely or mean...the camps can be assaulted by any number of things (believably and realistically, i might add...defenseless villages are WHY adventurers make a profit) or can live in peace for a long-long-long time personally, i prefer the latter, but with the proviso that anything can happen...this keeps the player on his/her toes and a little anxious. just the way i like em... namaste, the hamster
Thanatos02 03-09-05, 07:49 PM	It's a tough one. Building a trade empire is a rough, full-time job that involves a lot of work. If her character wants to be able to oversee this on a day-to-day or even a week-to-week basis, her character is retired. I know this seems harsh, but them's the breaks of becoming your very own Lord. Luckily, there's a solution! Make a quest or plot-hook of her hiring of an overseer. A Seneschal to oversee the estate, for example. The seneschal will undertake the day to day duties of the estate, figure out who to hire, and run stuff in her best interests. Of course, this is a little dangerous, since she'd be entrusting her land to someone else, but that's really the only way she can leave. It's a good idea to use magic and mundane means to ensure the seneschal's worth. This, even after it's done, will create plot-hooks forever. As for cash? I dunno - eyeball it. Look in the Stronghold Builder's Guide, Arms and Equipment, and Unearthed Arcana + DM's Guide for tips. Make some guesses about what kind of resources are there, and make an educated guess at the overall profit of a situation. It's not gonna be huge in the begining. Don't expect it to break even off the startup costs for quite a while. However, the amount of raw trade product is gonna be quite large, depending. Remember this - most income is not Gold or even Silver. It's all sunk into land value and trade good value. Most of her worth are likely to be represented in things like livestock. If she insists on converting it all into gold, she's likely to be in for a rude awakening. Power derives from having goods others need. Her Seneshal should understand this, and if he/she's ambitious in creating power for his master, then this could create political situations. Hm. What do you think? Something to think about. I don't have any way of guessing actual numbers at this point.
Hayabusa 03-09-05, 10:08 PM	Remember this - most income is not Gold or even Silver. It's all sunk into land value and trade good value. Most of her worth are likely to be represented in things like livestock. If she insists on converting it all into gold, she's likely to be in for a rude awakening. Power derives from having goods others need. Her Seneshal should understand this, and if he/she's ambitious in creating power for his master, then this could create political situations. Hm. What do you think? Something to think about. I don't have any way of guessing actual numbers at this point. Exactly, most peasants in medieval Europe paid their taxes in livestock. And since most of the other rulers have tons of livestock as well, it's going to be hard to convert it into cash. On the other hand, you can convert into a nice juicy steak...
benma 03-10-05, 03:27 AM	Check out A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe, by Expeditious Retreat Press, a terrific pseudohistorical examination of the feudal economy in D&D terms. http://www.exp.citymax.com/page/page/351668.htm
Fredrik Svanberg 03-10-05, 06:39 AM	Every now and then something will threaten the production of the character's investement. Raiders will attack the town. Smugglers will put a dent in her profits. Thieves will try to steal the monthly wages for the lumberjacks. Monsters will scare away farmers while investigating the new food source which has suddenly appeared. In order to get any profit out of her investment the character will have to overcome these challenges. Depending on the CR of the encounters, she is entitled to some money, according to the standard tables in the DMG. Use those values to determine how much money she makes off her investment. Your player has basically created an adventure generator for you, all you have to do is milk it for all it's worth.
Dargan Griess 03-10-05, 07:07 AM	With 100 Lumber Cutters (approximately 5 times as many as most towns that size had) there is a great chance she will attract the attention of some seriously fanatical Druids.
turalisj 03-10-05, 07:10 AM	do what i do when i have a player that just bugs me; sned in some yuan'ti
Maerdash 03-10-05, 12:13 PM	well hi again. The players and i have decided to get together and put their incredible minds to work for me so i have less work to do, thanks for all the ideas, i especially like the yaunti (she's a tainted one :D ) She also is working with a local druid circle in order to keep the logging to an acceptable level, shes basically wanting to build a few ships for her towns use then move onto selling finished ships (slowly and few ships) in larger markets to the north. My one big stick the partycut off, there was an entrance to the underdark very near the village that the players entered and after a LOT of foot work they managed to convince the drow there that having access to a market on the surface is worth more than wiping out a small town. Maybe the alliance with the drow becomews common knowledge?
Drachasor 03-10-05, 12:44 PM	As far as the Druids are concerned, any agreement is going to involve the players agreeing to help them out now and then. Unless there is a massive, massive forest and magical means of transporting the lumberjacks and lumber around, then they are going to be getting trees out of it at an unnacceptable rate. The Druids *can* alleviate this with their magic, but that uses up some of their resources. Hence the players will have to compensate them by running errands for them now and then (and the town will have to agree to support the Druids as necessary too, in all likelihood, though the Druids would probably do the same for the town). As for the Drow....they are wholly untrustworthy. It doesn't matter wether the town finds out about the deal or not, the Drow will betray it and attack at a ripe moment. That, or they'll use weapons and items they got from the town to attack other surface towns elsewhere....such things are traceable. I don't even understand why these players are making deals with Drow....I'd personally push them back and make deals with other, better underdark races (or a good group of drow, though that's nigh impossible to find unless there is an enclave of ranger scimitar wielders with the Druids). If all else fails, I'd collapse the tunnel as much as I possible could, and set up as much defenses as I can to make opening up again untenable. -Drachasor
Drachasor 03-10-05, 12:48 PM	Oh, and I'd have them earning a small profit after 6-10 sessions, and a larger one after 20 sessions. During which time they have to defend the city. Part of the profits should come from selling land to settlers and businessmen. Oh, and lastly everyone should bear in mind that D&D economies are not like medieval ones. On a normal magic world it is much easier to transport goods around, for one as there is a lot of transportation magic. Communications can be much higher and crop yeilds and health in civilized areas are probably closer the best we have today. A few clerics and druids going around the countryside can do a lot. -Drachasor
Maerdash 03-10-05, 02:06 PM	thanks Drachasor your posts are going to be helpful very soon i think, i did warn my players that drow are untrustworthy but they dont seem to believe me lol
Docrailgun 03-10-05, 05:17 PM	I would say, let her roll the Profession skill, possibly once for each week of game time, and say that amount is the profits after paying all the workers, bills, and so on. I would just figure out some amount of money/month that I am comfortable with giving her character; remember that she might have to pay taxes to the local government, etc. What are the other player characters up to? Hopefully they are involved, otherwise the players might get bored if the focus of the game shifts to her business. There would be plenty of opportunities: a fighter/ranger type could set up a militia/watch, a thiefy rogue could pre-emptively take control of the local crime, a cleric or druid could set up a temple, etc.
turalisj 03-10-05, 05:42 PM	well hi again. The players and i have decided to get together and put their incredible minds to work for me so i have less work to do, thanks for all the ideas, i especially like the yaunti (she's a tainted one :D ) She also is working with a local druid circle in order to keep the logging to an acceptable level, shes basically wanting to build a few ships for her towns use then move onto selling finished ships (slowly and few ships) in larger markets to the north. My one big stick the partycut off, there was an entrance to the underdark very near the village that the players entered and after a LOT of foot work they managed to convince the drow there that having access to a market on the surface is worth more than wiping out a small town. Maybe the alliance with the drow becomews common knowledge? hmm, in that case, also have pirates attacking her shipping. and mybe some illithid...... should add something from the monster creation boards. add something she has no idea existed.
Hayabusa 03-10-05, 05:54 PM	Oh, and I'd have them earning a small profit after 6-10 sessions, and a larger one after 20 sessions. During which time they have to defend the city. Part of the profits should come from selling land to settlers and businessmen. Oh, and lastly everyone should bear in mind that D&D economies are not like medieval ones. On a normal magic world it is much easier to transport goods around, for one as there is a lot of transportation magic. Communications can be much higher and crop yeilds and health in civilized areas are probably closer the best we have today. A few clerics and druids going around the countryside can do a lot. -Drachasor Yeah, Gentle Repose would work very well with shipping meat across long distances. One could even house rule that you could preserve a specific weight with the spell as well (say about 300 pounds a use.)
Drachasor 03-10-05, 06:29 PM	Yeah, Gentle Repose would work very well with shipping meat across long distances. One could even house rule that you could preserve a specific weight with the spell as well (say about 300 pounds a use.) Or something like that with a spell of the same level. I doubt they'd put all the spells like that in the PHB...no player would use them. -Drachasor