Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Melpomene 02-24-06, 09:18 AM	Having thought a good deal about the way I usually play, I decided to go against type and make a rogue for my next charicter. This particular rogue will be an art dealer. And by art dealer, I mean of course, an "art dealer." With an emphasis on "dealer." Something in the LN to LE vain. So far, I'v statted out his skills as Proffession: Art Dealer, Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, UMD, Know: Nobility, Speak Language, Spot, and Sense Motive. These are all good skills for a legitimate art dealer, but I wonder if something else might be better. Second, I'm not really sure at all where to begin as far as race or feats. I have vague notions of half-elf and skill focus, but in the end I really have never done much roguerry and could use some advice.
katarl 02-24-06, 11:47 AM	art dealer? thats not particularly heroic, or exciting is it? Why not 'art conoisseur', the kind that leaves peoples houses with priceless works, at a five finger discount? Dealing in the goods would be on the side. If you're an art dealer, you may want to get craft- painting, as artwork is usually a much higher value after restoration, particularly since its highly likely the work will get damaged. Maybe gather information to find out about new works, and make friends with various mages to get permanent images, portals (very mario) and other lovely magical features for a truly unique piece. Good feats for rogues, weapon finesse for a melee combatant, or combat reflexes or improved initiative. I usually use stealthy, which grants +2 on both hide and move silently, but you may want to focus on persuasive or meticulous. As for races, half-elf, human or halfling are all good choices. Don't forget that business rules can be found in the DMG2, and will put your profession-art dealer to good use.
Sikyanakotik 02-24-06, 12:02 PM	Search is pretty much a must. It's just as useful for finding flaws and odd details in paintings, secret panels in statuary and furniture, and hidden caches of art objects as it is for finding traps. Seems like a better choice than Speak Language to me, and your party will be grateful at at any rate.
Melpomene 02-24-06, 01:36 PM	@kat: Hm... I failed my Innuendo check. What I mean to say is that he's an "art dealer", insomuch as that's the completely legitimate front of his *completely legitimate* business dealings. Just a simple art dealer, blessed with many friends. Capisca? New skill roster: Profession: Art Dealer, Appraise, Search, Spot, Know: Nobility, UMD, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Forgery.
Feor 02-24-06, 02:24 PM	Might want ot throw some slight of hand in there too, so if there's some small piece of art you're appraising (a cameo or locket, or even a piece of jewlery) you can switch it out with a previously prepared fake (maybe even something summoned that'll turn to dust in a couple hours, if there's a wizard on your payroll) and no one will know the difference.
Yak of Darkness 02-24-06, 04:16 PM	What exactly will Profession (art dealer) do for you? Not a sarcastic question . . . I'm wondering if there is any function of the art dealing (or "art dealing") business that the other skills don't cover. Appraise is obviously a huge skill, no question there. Forgery's another obvious goodie, and I agree with Feor about Sleight of Hand. The social skills will also be critical: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate . . . you might also want to work in Sense Motive, too (one of the key parts of being successfully disreputable is to make sure that other disreputable people can't out-con you). You might want to expand on the Knowledges, too. Knowledge (history) and Knowledge (local) would be especially helpful, both for being able to have a large base of real information to better rattle off credible BS to others as well as knowing the kinds of things that people in a given area want/like . . . for better service, of course. Knowledge (architecture and engineering) could come in handy, too, depending on your character. Spot and Search I can agree seeing coming in handy (probably Search moreso than Spot, although Spot's a good skill to have anyway), but they difinitely both fit the idea of a character who is primarily visually-oriented. Not sure how UMD plays into this, but it's also a good skill for anyone to have, so why not? But as for the specifically "art dealer" side of things, I'm not sure what you need beyond Appraise, some Knowledges, and the social/interaction skills. That would seem to cover all of your bases, without needing to put points into Profession.
Melpomene 02-24-06, 04:23 PM	Namely, Proffession:Art Dealer does the thing that all profession does: it makes money. Appraise lets me take a little more off the top, but at the end of the day Proffession skills put bread on the table. It also lets me find fences, legitimate buyers, manage inflow of materials in a city, gives a kind of Know: Art, that sort of thing. New Skills Block: Profession: Art Dealer, Appraise, Search, Spot, Know: Nobility, Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Forgery, Slight of Hand.
MistWolf 02-25-06, 12:36 PM	Making your Rogue an Art Dealer is an excellent idea! Sounds like a character a friend of mine made for a future game- Jake Slade, Owner of Antiquities of Beverly Hills. He was a legitimate dealer of art pieces and other interesting artifacts. Powerful people would come to him to request he aquire certain pieces for them and pay large retainers to do so. And since Jake had a knack of acquiring pieces no one else could- especially when the former owner was adamant about not selling- he could about name his price. And he knew "where the bodies were buried" giving him certain immunity from his clients. As a result, Jake had good network of contacts, from the lowest to the highest places. He had knowledge about powerful items. He knew how to ferret out rumors and sift fact from fiction. He also was able to employ a few beautiful and talented women to work for him. He worked scams, pulled strings, thumbed his nose at powerful CEOs, lived a high life style, had gorgeous intelligent women at his beckoning call, discovered and recovered a few important lost items, cheated death, manipulated markets and generally had a good time. The Art Dealer is an excellent character concept for role playing. Congratulations!
Yak of Darkness 02-25-06, 01:22 PM	Namely, Proffession:Art Dealer does the thing that all profession does: it makes money. Appraise lets me take a little more off the top, but at the end of the day Proffession skills put bread on the table.If you've got a constant stream of merchandise coming in and out, I could see that as working. If there are few individual pieces, though, it would probably make more sense to deal with them on a piece-by-piece basis, instead of a catch-all check. That said, if you're big enough to merit the profession check, I'd say good on you. ;) It also lets me find fences, legitimate buyers, manage inflow of materials in a city, gives a kind of Know: Art, that sort of thing.I could see a lot of this being gathered up into Gather Info (which would also be a good skill to have for this, anyway) and Knowledge [local]. The point about it acting as a Knowledge [art] is a good one, though. If nothing else, I can definitely see the use there. Sounds like a fun character. :D
Ichor Spellka 02-25-06, 01:40 PM	If you're up to buying cross-class ranks, Knowledge: History would fit well too. Knowing when the painting was made, as well as under what sort of socio-political circumstances would be very useful, and could also help you find potential buyers. For instance, if you knew that this statue, while appearing to have been created during a certain era in a certain location, was actually from a completely different time and place, based on artist, tones, and scenery, and other subtle clues, selling it to someone who takes a particular interest in that era would probably net you a higher profit.
Melpomene 02-26-06, 04:24 PM	Thank for the suggestions. As a general note, 'art item' isn't limited to paintings and sculptures. Art makes up 1/3 of all treasure, on average, and covers jewlery, etc. If there are adventurers in the town, a 'stream' of buyers and sellers can be expected. I still need feats and a race, however...
DrMorganes 02-26-06, 08:23 PM	Failed your Innuendo check?! Mel, methinks you need to update your character sheet to the 3.5 ruleset. Innudendo was (thankfully) rolled into Sense Motive. ;) Moving on... Race: human, half-elf, or halfling. Humans get along with more or less everyone. As a race they are far more tolerant than any other. You also get an extra Feat and skill points ;) Half-elf for largely the same reasons, sans the feat and skill points. The flavor of the race is that of a chatty, friendly outcast. Friendly with everyone, but not really trusting anyone. Perfect for a merchant type of any stripe. You don't want to limit your customer base, but neither would you allow just anyone to watch your store while you're away... Halfling because the race is stereotypically roguish these days. I'd not have suggested this if I hadn't read Races of the Wild. I like what Wizards has done to distance halflings from their hobbitish roots. Feats: This is trickier, and needs to be carefully considered since rogues get so few of them. Will this character be adventuring at all, ever? If so, keep in mind that feats granting bonuses to skill checks become less valuable over time as your skill ranks increase. +2 or +3 is fairly huge at low levels, and makes sense for an NPC merchant. For an active adventurer, however, you may be better served with a little min/maxing and opting for feats that will increase your usefulness to your party and/or extend your survivability. Improved Initiative is always a good choice for a rogue, allowing you a much better chance of popping off that high-damage Sneak Attack before your opponent(s) get to react. Weapon Finesse likewise, as your BAB is honestly quite horrid. High DEX suddenly means better AC AND better ability to actually land that Sneak Attack! Beyond that, a little discussion on your PC's personality may well be in order... A few thoughts on your skill selection: Are you an art merchant with a larcenous heart, or are you a thief who fronts as a merchant? The two are similar, but have very different focuses. The answer will help focus your skill and feat selections. Rogues get 8 skill points per level, which before INT and racial bonuses is enough for you to keep 8 skills maxed as you progress. You get one more for every point of INT bonus, and humans get one more still. The rogues I play generally end up with 11 or 12 fully maxed skills. (I go for the quick, smart types with high INT and DEX.) With your concept, however, you may not want to max ALL of your skills. Some - like your Profession - may be better left at a single digit or split between two less important, but still relevant, skills. Profession (Merchant) would be a better choice than Profession (Art Dealer). You never know what sort of things you'll want/need to sell, so why limit your options? Appraise works just as well on silks, spices, and livestock as objects d'art... That Profession skill, however, will NOT find you a fence. That's a roleplaying opportunity driven by (as noted by Yak of Darkness) Gather Information and Knowledge (Local). If you're using your store as a front, you probably won't need a more than 4 or 5 ranks in your Profession. This should be enough for you to earn a living if you want/need to, and puts you on par with an NPC with a few levels of Merchant. Perhaps those points could be spent on other skills (like Gather Info) at later levels. Pulling the thread mentioned by MistWolf: if you're to get those ungettable pieces, you'll need at least a few points into roguely skills of Open Lock and Disable Device. Move Silently and Hide can be helpful as well, though they are more easily offset with magic. Of course, you could always just hire such jobs done. Rogues - especially those who work just for gold - are rather notoriously untrustworthy... ;)