Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moon-Lancer 04-17-05, 11:10 PM	Ok. this may seem like a strange thread, but i am currently playing a vop druid. I am role playing it as such. At the moment we are all level 6. at the time of the incident are 3 character were talking to the council of kingdoms (its like the united nations) through a mirror, were my character accused the society of wizards of trying to take over the Kingdome of the enchanted forest, well after the political intreag continued, 3 wizards warped with the intent to kill us. We fought them down and 1 was left alive entangled by the wizard (a different wizard and a member of the party). My character had left the Mirror open as proof to the councel of kingdom’s that the wizards were trying to kill us and take over the enchanted forest. Well afterwards i said a comment to one of the Drow protecting the wizzards (drow are not evil but this one was) I told her that if this was a cell faction of the sow why would they attack us at the same moment we were exposing them. At that moment the wizard being question by the party wizard was killed by magic missile and something was thrown into the wall that the mirror was being held onto. My character tried to save the mirror but it was destroyed (effectivly ending the phone call) along with the rest of the room. and my character made his reflex save to not be crushed. Well we all got a surprise round to buff up, and combat started. I wildshaped into a FleashRaker from monster manual 3. My character took game time and read some books about creatures and was able to become familiar with the form (alittle house rule mechanic that is fun to do, especially with a lack of items. Its a fun thing to do. Being a druid i have an animal companion. The animal companion gets first initiative, it runs around the bend and finds a very powerful looking wizard. It attacks and hits. It attempts a trip attack and rolls a 19. This unfortunate turn of events trips a very very high powered wizard. My initiative is next. My character moves around the bend and finds a wizzard and attacks him with a claw attack. he hits and gets hit with 1d6+4 and 1d6+5 from produce flame. The dm says that at this point my produce flame runs out. Soon the wizard is surrounded by a party wizzard, a flashraker wildshaped druid, and a wolf. People do their thing and the wizzard on the ground takes his turn. He decides to defensively cast rather then provoking 3 attacks of opportunity. He fails his check and is still prone. Next round My character has a go. I attack with a claw, 1d6+4. The dm asked if im going to take a move action, i tell her i am using a full round action of attacks. The dm give a look of horror as my flesh raker does just that. At the very end the level 10 wizard died, while the party is only level 6. My character and animal companion were the only ones that got attacks off so its safe to say my character took out a level 10 character. Some things to consider though The dm did not finish the intended level 12 wizard character sheet she thought she was done with it but when combat started she realized she was in error. She used a level 10 character sheet instead. Ironically enough it was the brothers charicter sheet of the high level wizard. If my characters produce flame would not have run out, the damage would have been Much Much higher. Now this is the question i ask. What went wrong here. Is it that druids in general are to powerful? Is it the fleshracker is too powerful? was it that the wizard dident have backup? or was it all the trip at the begining? Not sure the power of High level wizards, but these are my characters stats at level 6 as a fleshraker. Strangth 17 Dex 19 Con 15 int 14 wis 18 cha 15 AC 27 attack 9/9/4/4 A Flesh racker gets 1d6 dex damage with a dc fort save of 14 with claws and tail My character was attacking at a +9 for the 2 primary claws and a +4 for the tail and bite. that’s 1d6+4 (with vop) for claw and 1d6+2 for tail and bite The dm said that 4 attacks at level 6 is quite powerful with 3 of them doing dex damage, while the fighter only gets 2 attacks. It does seem quite powerful. Not to mention the leaping pounce (which wasn’t used because of a obstruction of the map.) How is produce flame a level 1 spell when it could effectively double the damage done in this build. I Know as intended produce flame is very balanced, but combined with melee its a monster. assuming average roles, and that all attacks hit (i know a big if) that’s 56 damage, about half from fire. I know that’s allot to scuff at in the optimize forums, but that could kill most characters of equal level, and in this case a level 10 wizard. Any help as to if my character is to powerful or if he just got really really lucky. This is the first big fight in fleshracker form, and i would like to keep it and assume some how everything is balanced but i think it might be a combination of circumstance and that the character may be to powerful.
Vharuck 04-18-05, 02:23 AM	What went wrong is this: A lone wizard. Lone NPCs get their butts kicked horribly after the party is level 2 or so. Seriously, it allows for ganking and flanking. Also, a smart wizard never travels alone or without a meatshield companion/summoned thingy. You got lucky. You tripped the guy. Lucky. He failed his defensive cast. Very lucky. No, an unoptimized fighter could have downed this guy. Did he have no defensive spells cast? No Invisibility? No Blur? No Mirror Image? No Polymorph? It sounds like the DM played the NPC wrong by throwing him at you unprepared. A wizard who goes unprepared is a weak, weak opponent.
Cold Napalm 04-18-05, 02:43 AM	The wizard was in a VERY bad tacticial postition...also known as a -2 to the CR. So think of him as a level 8 wizard. Secondly VoP monks and druids = stupidly broken. But what you did isn't THAT bad...my level 12 spellsword can do nearly 5x that damage in 2 rounds + surprise round and I do nearly double the damage of our groups VoP druid...in the short term.
Szat 04-18-05, 05:16 AM	That was just a badly played NPC. If that Wizard was any good at his Wizardlness he wouldn't have gone in unprepared. A properly played Wizard probably would've known about your fleshrakeryness and Baleful Polymorphed you into a shrew. But yeah..........is that Vow Of Peace you have? Or Vow Of Poverty?
Moon-Lancer 04-18-05, 06:22 AM	Vow of Poverty. I really like it becuse i dont have to worry about eq. It puts a load off so i can spend more time picking good wildshape forms and spells. THe wizard was the bbeg, and i feel bad for killing him so early in the game. Im almost positive the dm was trying to warp out, but failed the casting defensivly check. The game ended right after the high level wizards death, so i think the dm next session is going to plan to have the wizard be a clone or be a doppleganger. In fact i suggested these things to her to let her keep the bbeg. I really want to fight that charicter in equal ground (by equal i mean he has support). Yeah he was prone from the trip so thats a -4 to his ac. Plus my charicter got into flanking with the wolf, so thats a +2 to hit. I think the wolf also managed to do damage the turn right before the full attack of fleshrakeing. Thanks for your guys/girls inputs.
Derren S. 04-18-05, 07:55 AM	Face it druid + VoP = Broken as hell. But you should not feel bad, the wizard was badly played (and how a wizard fails a check to cast defensive at lvl 12 is beyond me). But remember that it can be argued that wildshape forms doesn't give you the poison attacks because wildshapes references to Alter self (through polymorph) Also your wolf seems to be very independant.
Callista 04-18-05, 08:48 AM	Face it druid + VoP = Broken as hell. But you should not feel bad, the wizard was badly played (and how a wizard fails a check to cast defensive at lvl 12 is beyond me).Natural 1, or perhaps another low roll. Also your wolf seems to be very independant.Hmm, yes... wouldn't be surprised if the druid had simply told it to run around that corner and attack any hostiles, though.
Moon-Lancer 04-18-05, 09:27 AM	the dm rolled a 2 i beleave, for the defensive casting. I asked afterwords becuse i was concerned. the dm messed up the level 12 charicter sheet, so she used a spare level 10 charicter sheet (so we got xp for a cr 10 battle, not 12). Not sure if she bumped the concentration check up to a level 12 charicter or not (15). I think she must have missed the check by one or so. Well I’m not sure how this SHOULD be played, but at the moment we play animal companions like another character. So effectively I control both the wolf and the Druid as if it were me. I have a list of its tricks somewhere, I think it has about 11 or so just in bonus tricks. It’s a Exalted Companion so It has a int of 3. This may not amount to anything though. I have asked why we don’t play with tricks, and she says its not worth the trouble. It might be kind of fun playing with the limitation of tricks, but its easier on time if I just move it like another Peace. Also she says it strengthens the connection between the animal and the druid. Makes it feel more like loyalty i guess. To be honest, I usually forget about the animal companion and so does the dm. It only fights about half the time. Most of the time it’s on the far end of combat, forgotten. Its also almost died a few times. I was thinking of getting an aspire at level 8. That has a int of 13. How does the mechanics work for a int Creature. Would I then have justification to play it like it was a second character? And how would A unicorn work for a ranger with exalted companion. Those can outright speak.
Phrennzy 04-18-05, 10:05 AM	Natural 1, or perhaps another low roll. A natural 1 isn't an automatic skill failure. Nor is a 20 an automatic success.
Calico Jack Drake 04-18-05, 02:30 PM	The FleshRaker is probably the single most powerful attack form for a Druid 5-7 becuase of all the attacks plus poison/trip/grapple/pin/rake. No other 5 hit die creature has that kind of attack sequence naked and without feats. Add vow of Poverty and it becomes quite the nasty. Hit Druid 8 and take Exalted Wildshape and you can now be a Celestial Fleshraker, add in damage reduction and all extrodinary and supernatural abilites and it's worse. Finally, memorize Venomburn(?) from one of the Forgotten Realms suppliments (Underdark, I think) and now if either clw hits or the tail hits you also do you hit dice in acid damage in addition to the poison save. The Flashraker VoP Druid shape is a hugely powerful low-level form. Add in a single wizard NPC a CR only a few above party level and you have an NPC recipe for disaster. I would agree that the problem (in RP terms) was the Wizard was overconfident. From a mechanical standpoint, the DM may not have realized how dangerous that was going to be for the wizard and a couple of low rolls may have doomed the NPC. You got lucky, the NPC was unlucky. It happens.
Moon-Lancer 04-18-05, 07:34 PM	thanks for all your input guys and girls. The dm said i can keep the form, and she is going to keep a close watch an how well it preforms in other cercumstances, rather then attacking a prone wizard.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-18-05, 09:19 PM	Secondly VoP monks and druids = stupidly broken. You're wrong abvout VoP monks being stupidly broken. VoP monks are about average as far as VoP goes. You are entirely correct about the druids though.
Moon-Lancer 04-18-05, 10:09 PM	they arent broken persay, they are just really good with wildshape
Ut-Napishtim 04-19-05, 04:29 AM	Ok. this may seem like a strange thread, but i am currently playing a vop druid. I am role playing it as such. Did you ever notice that folks who have tweaked-out characters always feel the need to point out their incredible role-playing prowess at playing the tweaked-out character? My initiative is next. My character moves around the bend and finds a wizzard and attacks him with a claw attack. he hits and gets hit with 1d6+4 and 1d6+5 from produce flame. Um... Druids in Wild Shape can't cast spells as they are incapable of uttering the verbal components. Soon the wizard is surrounded by a party wizzard, a flashraker wildshaped druid, and a wolf. People do their thing and the wizzard on the ground takes his turn. He decides to defensively cast rather then provoking 3 attacks of opportunity. He fails his check and is still prone. Um, why? Getting up is a move action and any time you don't actually move anywhere you may take a 5-foot step. That means the Wizard could've gotten up, stepped back, and unleashed a spell. He would not have been able to cast on the defensive as that is a full-round action. Of course he wouldn't have needed to as he simply could've taken a step back. Now this is the question i ask. What went wrong here. Is it that druids in general are to powerful? Is it the fleshracker is too powerful? was it that the wizard dident have backup? or was it all the trip at the begining? I would say it's a combination of a tweaked-out character, and more importanty an idiot DM that let's you select whatever you want from a book for Wild Shape w/o actually seeing one before, and seems perfectly comfortable allowing any and all supplemental material when he doesn't even know the rules well enough to use NPC's actions effectively.
DarkWarriorKarg 04-19-05, 06:57 AM	Did you ever notice that folks who have tweaked-out characters always feel the need to point out their incredible role-playing prowess at playing the tweaked-out character? Ever notice that some folks can't pass up the opportunity to be rude for no apparent reason? Um... Druids in Wild Shape can't cast spells as they are incapable of uttering the verbal components. Feat: Natural Spell, p.98, PHB Um, why? Getting up is a move action and any time you don't actually move anywhere you may take a 5-foot step. That means the Wizard could've gotten up, stepped back, and unleashed a spell. He would not have been able to cast on the defensive as that is a full-round action. Of course he wouldn't have needed to as he simply could've taken a step back. Standing up generates attacks of opportunity. p.141 and p.143, PHB, Standing Up From Prone I would say it's a combination of a tweaked-out character, and more importanty an idiot DM that let's you select whatever you want from a book for Wild Shape w/o actually seeing one before, and seems perfectly comfortable allowing any and all supplemental material when he doesn't even know the rules well enough to use NPC's actions effectively. I would say that DM certainly knows the rules. The DM, however, made a horrible tactical decision with a lone, unprepared mage. She will hopefully learn from this.
Ut-Napishtim 04-19-05, 07:16 AM	Ever notice that some folks can't pass up the opportunity to be rude for no apparent reason? Yes, I did just notice that. :D Feat: Natural Spell, p.98, PHB Sure, assuming the character had it - I didn't see it mentioned in the original post. Standing up generates attacks of opportunity. p.141 and p.143, PHB, Standing Up From Prone Ah, congratulations - you can read, now please find the section on Casting Spells From Prone for me. I would say that DM certainly knows the rules. I'd say you'd be in the minority on that. :ayyyy!:
Moon-Lancer 04-19-05, 08:49 AM	Well I assumed a level 6 druid was a given to have natural spell. Not that its free by any means, but, that every level 6 druid would take natural spell. I didn’t post most of the build because sometimes i find people post their entire build, and I didn’t really find it necessary. I probably could have gotten by without posting stats. Next time I probably won’t. The reason I said I am trying to play role play vop is that i have seen threads that seem more like witch trials, or in this case druid trials. However I do think there is a big difference between 1: powergameing + minmaxing + munchkening a character, 2: role playing a character but wanting it to be powerful, 3: Not compromising your characters truth with power. To be honest, this is one of my most favert characters that does have the name Moon-Lancer. AHAHAH.
Ut-Napishtim 04-19-05, 02:26 PM	Well I assumed a level 6 druid was a given to have natural spell. Not that its free by any means, but, that every level 6 druid would take natural spell. I didn’t post most of the build because sometimes i find people post their entire build, and I didn’t really find it necessary. I probably could have gotten by without posting stats. Next time I probably won’t. Meh, don't worry about it man. I wasn't trying to throw any of this off on you with my post - my intent was to point out some of your DM's shortcomings. Most posters have agreed so far he played it rather poorly - regardless of what sort of play style someone prefers or doesn't. So that first comment was probably a little rude, and seems to have subsequently tainted the responses to my insights. I was entirely serious though - every time I see it it's always like: So we were going along and I had my Half-Warforged/Half-Dragon Gestalted Sorcerer/Paladin of Freedom/Eldritch Knight Spellsword - that I only took for role-playing purposes... I used to have one guy in my group that talked constantly about how important role-playing was to him - but wouldn't play if he couldn't have a character with at least two attributes over 20. Obviously your character isn't that bad, just something I noticed (that high-power enthusiasts seem rather defensive about it - even before anyone has even said anything.) Although for the record ATM I'm playing a Lizardfolk Druidic Avenger in an online PBEM game who doesn't have Natural Spell. Since he already has natural weapons he doesn't really need to shapechange unless he wants to fly somewhere or something. Not that I'm saying that's better, worse, equal to, or comparable, or related (I think that covers all the legal requirements) to your character - simply that from the perspective I had, having seen no mention of the feat, I assumed (erroneously) that it had not been taken. I'm certain and confident that you observe all requirements and restrictions applicable to your character that your DM hasn't house ruled away. :w00t:
Moon-Lancer 04-19-05, 04:17 PM	No problem. I try to play by the rules to the best of my skill, and i try to give my charicter as much life as I can. Its funny, at first i started thinking of my charicter i had already hurd of vop. I thought it was kind of neet. I begain to think of budizum and how power comes from within and It seemd a viable way to go. He doesent need magical power from wealth. He has inner peace. I played a sessen with him and it was strange not needing to make a search check after winning a battle becuse all he needed to do was level. He dident need anything of monitary value. I admit though, some of the feats i chose intitivly for the ability, but i really really like the backstory as to why the charicter had them. I havent taken golden ice, there was just to many feats with story workablity, like Nymphs kiss. Anway, after choseing the charicter, I keept finding threads on how druid was powerfull, and how vop synergized with them and i guess thats a good thing to find that a charicter you have made isent weak. I say this though, i really like the look of the fleshracker form. its sortof like a dragon and i thought it would be a good story teaser before draconic wildshape. I think though that if i was a normal druid, no matter what i woudlent play a leagondary ape just to wear eq. Its totaly non druid in my opnion (at least dragons are cool). Sorry. had to crack on the silly ape form. Any chance i get anyway. So far, varents that the dm has aloud for this charicter, is flaws. a storybased one. A true name. (Think fey). Substituting 3 exalted feats, for escew materals, mobile Spell casting and i think one other. I think i may want greenbound summoning, becuse its feyish, I wish there was one that would summon fey animals (as silly as that sounds) but green bound summoning is an ok solution, but i am weary of it. Im probably not going to take touch of golden ice. The dm also said that i could play a chaotic druid becuse she wants me to get a unicorn compainin becuse that goes will with nymphs kiss. (i know unicorns are not fey but common) LoL im Highjacking my own Thred. hay Ut-Napishtim, want to trade druid background sheets. I like seeing how other people play druids. It gives me some ideas, or points out were my charicter is unlike other druids and shows the artifacts of its mind.
fractal 04-20-05, 04:04 AM	VoP aside, the Fleshraker is a pretty crazy creature. It's a 4HD CR2 Animal that's likely to kill any single level 2 character in the first round with the broken ability to Pounce. And then poison/trip/pin on top of that?? The situation only gets worse if you send it up against a low HP/AC Wizard, or make it a Druid with higher BAB and buffing capability. Your DM should just take a page from your book and send a pack of Fleshrakers to attack the party. Four Fleshrakers is a CR 6 encounter. Let them Pounce, and see how many of you survive.
Ut-Napishtim 04-20-05, 04:20 AM	LoL im Highjacking my own Thred. hay Ut-Napishtim, want to trade druid background sheets. I like seeing how other people play druids. It gives me some ideas, or points out were my charicter is unlike other druids and shows the artifacts of its mind. Dang, I could probably post a link to the whole game - we've been going for a couple months now, but if my experiences with Games Workshop tells me anything I'm thinking they probably frown on folks posting links to other gaming sites here. I can do a basic summary though. I envisioned the character coming from a tribal marsh society where all the hatchlings are cared for in common, from each according to his ability to each according to his need, etc. Naturally a few would be selected for initiation into the Shamans' Druidic order and such. Once he finsihed his training he set out on the standard pilgrimage to check out other lands so he could grow in wisdom and knowledge - which explains how he came into contact with the other PC's in Human lands. The way the DM handles it the Lizardfolk are pretty rare outside their own lands, but folks have heard of them and seen a couple in their lifetimes so I don't get atacked on sight or anything. Of course the character is NG, and his socialist tendencies often contrast sharply with the rest of the group who are seeking wealth and fortune. Just last week the party was offered some money and my character said: That's okay, I don't need any. Most of the time he lives off Goodberry's. There're no Fighters in the group so he's pretty much become a default front-line-combatant, but fills in nicely as a secondary healer. There's a Cleric in the group who's not exacly a 'people person,' so the other PC's and NPC's warm up nicely to his compassion and selfless attitude. He carries no weapons, prefering instead to use his natural weapons - but has some fur-trimmed leather armor to help keep him warm. Of course the Druidic Avenger gives up the animal compainion and spontaneous summoning so I'm pretty much on my own.
fractal 04-20-05, 04:31 AM	Dang, I could probably post a link to the whole game - we've been going for a couple months now, but if my experiences with Games Workshop tells me anything I'm thinking they probably frown on folks posting links to other gaming sites here. My own experience is that WotC is not at all like Games Workshop. They actually want to have happy players, instead of just a captive audience. Note the Open Gaming License, etc. Good business practice, but also good for the customers. People post links here all the time. Go ahead and post yours.
Ut-Napishtim 04-20-05, 10:35 AM	My own experience is that WotC is not at all like Games Workshop. They actually want to have happy players, instead of just a captive audience. Note the Open Gaming License, etc. Good business practice, but also good for the customers. People post links here all the time. Go ahead and post yours. Yeah, I actually got banned from the GW boards for posting a link. Anyway, you can check out the online game I mentioned here (http://masspbmb.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=116&sid=0b2efab4f5a533dabcaf41c34bbfb41e) if you like. I may have to try that combining Produce Flame with natural attacks if the DM permits - hadn't thought of that before.