Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kelanin 07-11-04, 08:11 AM	Thanks to all from last post i will try to tell every detail before posting. During the afore mentioned game the party found themselves joining a paladin and two dwarf clerics on a cities nightwatch as there seemed to be some conflict going on in the Rogues Giuld, with spot and search rolls they detected they were not alone and were being followed via the rooftops as the party sought cover and shadows the cleric strode into the middle of the street to lure out the "sneak", a listen check from those near enough heard a slight grinding noise followed by a wooden fumbling noise, an effect number of 5 over the dc chance and the listener thought it sounded alot like someone loading a crossbow as 1 PC began to climb and another cast a spell to fly, there was a twang, a roll by me and a request to the cleric for a FORT check, he failed i knocked over the figure on the table, all hell broke loose, in a positive way but i hated the fact i had killed a character so easily, oh the dwarves took him away and did the ussual speak with dead and raise to get him back, i could have struck for paralyzation, but the assassin was part of a death cult of the fallen god Myrkul trying to warn the party to butt out of their business, everything worked superbly the cleric when he returned was so miffed his motivation in the game red lined and he drew the party with him hunting down the assassins giuld all part of my plan, my question is DO YOU THINK ASSASSINS TIP THE BALANCE IN FAVOUR OF EVIL AND SHOULD THEY BE USED IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH PLAYERS i felt terrible about killing a PC oh i like taking my games to the edge but dont like stepping over. The following chase was totally exhilerating for both sides and the assassin actually escaped but not unscathed.
KevvyD 07-11-04, 09:51 AM	I think it sounds like a wonderful adventure you've got your PC's involved in. Yeah, it sucks to be killed, but that's the way it works. We just wrapped up a campaign that took the PC's (of which I was one) right up to 20th level and every one of us got killed at least once, and a couple twice. Sure it sucks, but everyone loses a level now and then. Let's face it, your PC's are hunting an assasin's guild after all, and assasinations are exactly what they should expect now and then. Besides, there are always ways that the PC's can help avoid these situations. There are loads of divinations and lots of magic items that can be used to 'clear a path'. Sending someone all sneaky-like in ahead works, as does invisibility in many cases. Also, if they know that there is a price on their heads, they could just minimize their exposure in areas where they can't control everything. The risk is that it could slow the game down, such just don't nail 'em too much. Yeah, fast death sucks, but lets face it, it will make them more careful, won't it?
Vaelan 07-11-04, 09:58 AM	It isn't unreasonable to rule Fortification blocks the Assassin's Death Attack, since it is quite similar to a Sneak Attack. It works by striking a vital area, so Fortification makes sense. Nothing is as bad as it seems if it can be countered. Generally Assassins are a bit unfair to your players, especially when they're prepped with Sniper's Eye... Death Attacks with ranged weapons are a bit too much for my tastes. I usually make PrC Assassins only come into play when an important political or religious figure needs to be eliminated. I also make them quite rare, as they are very powerful individuals.
Kelanin 07-11-04, 11:32 AM	the assassin was a basic Fighter/Rogue/Assassin of 4/4/2 10th level the same as the players, he had none of the special feats just basic PH ones, i like to keep the bad guys pretty basic makes them easier to run for me, he was one of three assassins in the city, the rest of their giuld were made up of murderous rogues, some evil rangers and a smattering of 1/2 orc barbarians, this particuliar NPC was the assassins leader the other two a level behind him, he used a Masterwork light crossbow with a +1 bolt, fired a single shot then dropped the crossbow and fled the party were so up for the chase none of them even picked up the disgarded weapon, he fled using a cloak of the bat which made the PC`s think he was a vampire or werebat, by flying low level around the streets and alleyways then into a sewer entrance he led the players straigth into a carefully laid trap where 6x4HD vampire spawn were lurking as they attacked the party he escaped, the party quickly dispatched the spawn but lost the trail, the players were foaming that the assassin had escaped but were exhilerated from the chase, they loved it, the cleric who got hit was a VIP he is the city magistrate, a 10th, LN cleric of tyr and the party leader and spokesman, I know death lingers around every corner in the D&D game thats what makes it exciting i just wonder SHOULD ASSASSINS LOOSE THEIR DEATH BLOW ABILITY AGAINST PLAYERS AND SAY INFLICT SOME LESSER EFFECT LIKE PARALYZATION OR INCREASED SNEAK ATTACK BONUS DICE what do you reckon.
Kilamar 07-11-04, 11:58 AM	Originally posted by Kelanin SHOULD ASSASSINS LOOSE THEIR DEATH BLOW ABILITY AGAINST PLAYERS AND SAY INFLICT SOME LESSER EFFECT LIKE PARALYZATION OR INCREASED SNEAK ATTACK BONUS DICE what do you reckon. No, the save DC is fairly low. Kilamar
KevvyD 07-11-04, 12:54 PM	Originally posted by Kilamar No, the save DC is fairly low. I agree with Kilamar. The DC is reasonable and most characters should make the save most of the time. Also, there are magic items that can be used to protect you against death effects for the campaigns in which there are particularly prevalent. For instance, in case you find yourself trying to take out an assassin's guild :D
sjogren 07-12-04, 05:38 AM	From the SRD: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, ... So crossbows are a no-no by the RAW. Also, the DC should've been 12 + int modifier and the cleric's fort should've been at least +7, plus con. Either it was one heck of a smart assassin or one really unlucky cleric. :(
Exile 07-12-04, 06:10 AM	Still... all it takes is one bad roll... On the other hand, it's only one attack, and it takes some time. It's fairly balanced...
Edward 07-12-04, 08:36 AM	Actually I think the RAW says fortification blocks assassin death attack. Doesn’t an assassin need to make a successful sneak attack. You where a bit mean using ranged weapon when it needs to be a melee weapon but it wouldn’t have saved the cleric. You where very nice to give them the rounds warning with the listen check. I tend too have assassin types that use crossbows enter with it loaded. With an assassin of that calibre the first the cleric would have known in my game would be the cold feeling as his life flowed out of his back. No cleric is going to beat the hide and move silently of a competent assassin although they would get there attempt. Also the assassins tactics would have severely limited other PCs chances of noticing him before hand. Edward
Arakano 07-12-04, 02:14 PM	Well, assassins killing players... that´s mean, but makes for great atmosphere sometimes! In our last session, a monk scouted ahead into an "empty" room with an invisible mind-flayer assassin in it. She darted through the room, looked everywhere, then stood in the middle of the room and proclaimed: "All´s clear!"... In that very moment, the assassin attacks, the monk rolls a 3 on her save... and gets a tentacle in one ear and out of the other! :smirk: Man, the look on my players faces! :D And, honestly, imagine this scene in a movie - wouldn´t it be great? ;) However, assassins are not THAT deadly. I had one following the cleric of the group in another campaign, and also the players acted so careless that he had THREE opportunities to attack the cleric, he always failed. Then they caught him.
ImmortalBlueMage 07-12-04, 08:30 PM	I was of a similar mind just in this last game I DMed. I'm running a 10th level module which features a Wight Assassin. She's an excellent villian, so I want to use her prominently, but death effects have always bothered me, no matter how "low" the saves are. After all, the law of averages says that if you have a player roll enough Fortitude saves, sooner or later they'll fail one... To remedy the situation, I took some advice given here on these boards in a thread about Bodaks. Any effect that would kill a character with a single blow instead drops them to -1 HP (if you really want to get the point across, you can make it -5). This is appropriately frightening for the players without ****ing them off, and it's more or less the same thing in terms of flavor (dealing a mortal wound instead of instant death).
Harmor 07-12-04, 09:35 PM	The Cleric should have a good Fort save so he should had made it. I failed a DC 15 Foritude save eventhough I had a +20 to my save...it happens. For reference here's the Assassin's Death Attack ability from the SRD: Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. You would only have a to make a DC 16 Fortitude check against a 4th level assassin with a 14 Intelligence. ...Any effect that would kill a character with a single blow instead drops them to -1 HP Our GM does this. Remember, it works both ways because once we killed an enemy with Power Word Kill and the next round one of his clerics cast Heal on him!!!
Vaelan 07-13-04, 12:07 AM	Death Attacks clearly aren't allowed with ranged weapons. There is, however, a spell called Sniper's Eye in Song & Silence that allows you to make a ranged Death Attack from within 30 feet, but it is a 4th level Assassin spell. This means the lowest level an Assassin could be to use this is 7th. I like the rule about death effects taking the character to -1, but I would put a restriction on immediately healing a character that is the subject of a death effect. If you are allowed to immediately heal the character, it makes death effects about as good as Hold Person, which doesn't seem like a very good thing.
Harmor 07-13-04, 12:50 AM	...If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage... That's right!!! Melee attack!!! You can't make a Death Attack with a ranged weapon. Viola...it never could had happened from an Assassin PrC.
ImmortalBlueMage 07-13-04, 03:56 AM	Originally posted by Vaelan If you are allowed to immediately heal the character, it makes death effects about as good as Hold Person, which doesn't seem like a very good thing. Yeah, except that I've never had a 12th level Half-Orc Barbarian reduced to 12 HP (Death Blowed down to -1, then healed for 13) after Hold Person.
Kelanin 07-13-04, 07:19 AM	Thanks for your advice and views. Every DM has there own style, rule interpretation and way of doing things, we are all different that is what makes this game so interesting. In the context of MY game i mistakenly allowed a low level assassin to use a ranged weapon to deliver a death attack to a PC, the effect was startling to say the least, there was no arguements by the players not even from the fallen PC, that one act drew players together in a common goal, to hunt down the murderer and bring him and his kind to justice, the PC was quickly brought back to life but still had to sacrifice his time to do a small quest to receive a heal spell to get him up on his feet and back in the chase. when he eventually caught up to the party they were struggling with some well roleplayed vampire spawn he stoood in the middle of the room and blasted them into oblivion, party was even more glad to see him. The point is a well run NPC assassin still needs alot of luck to kill a PC so no i dont think they are too powerful and to ease the flow and appease the Lawful Rules Masters i will try to stick to the rules and only use Melee attacks for the assassins, in my meagre defense I say that in this case THE END JUSTIFIED THE MEANS.
Vaelan 07-14-04, 07:01 PM	Yeah, except that I've never had a 12th level Half-Orc Barbarian reduced to 12 HP (Death Blowed down to -1, then healed for 13) after Hold Person. A Cleric is capable of healing far more than 13 points of damage by the time the more effective death effects come into play...
ImmortalBlueMage 07-15-04, 01:29 AM	Hmm, good point, my group (foolishly) does not have a Cleric, so they rely on healling potions. Nevertheless, any attack that deals 108 points of damage to a 12th level PC is nothing to scoff at in my books, no matter what happens afterward.
Vaelan 07-15-04, 06:37 AM	I think of it this way: Normally, a death effect incapacitates the target for the entirety of the battle. If it brings the character down to -1, it incapacitates them for approximately a round and a half(one round to get healed, a move action to stand up). The only reason to put this rule into place is if you think the results of death effects on a character are too harsh. If you allow them to be healed the next round, you are changing the effect the spell has on the battle, not just the character. For an example of where I'm coming from with this arguement, I do not allow resurrection in my campaign under ordinary circumstances. I recognize that, in this kind of setting, death effects would not be fair to my players. Thus I alter them to make the character unconscious instead. However, if you can immediately heal a character in these circumstances, it greatly reduces the usefulness of these spells, which is already questionable as they are nearly the ultimate gamble... you either outright kill the person or waste a valuable spell slot or the element of surprise.
Will Brandiman 07-15-04, 06:51 AM	Originally posted by Kelanin SHOULD ASSASSINS LOOSE THEIR DEATH BLOW ABILITY AGAINST PLAYERS AND SAY INFLICT SOME LESSER EFFECT LIKE PARALYZATION OR INCREASED SNEAK ATTACK BONUS DICE what do you reckon. IMHO, no. And I'm assuming you mean characters, not players! :D As someone pointed out earlier, the group is hunting an assassin's guild. They have to expect assassination attempts. They should therefore be taking appropriate measures to minimise the chances of an assassin getting near them. Anything from invisibility purge to tremorsense and blindsight. In this case it sounds like both you and your players handled it very well. You gave them a chance to detect the enemy and they got the appropriate save. It was pure bad luck that the save failed, and you can't legislate for that. Assassins are no worse than any save or die spell. In fact, they're probably easier for the PC's to deal with as the save is fairly easy and they usually have some chance, however slim, of detecting the assassin beforehand.
ImmortalBlueMage 07-15-04, 05:59 PM	Judging from all this debate, I think it might be easier to just have Assassins use paralyzing strikes instead. Might not be in character, but it's sure a lot less hassle.