Assistance Building an Eldritch Theurge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assistance Building an Eldritch Theurge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sauce
01-27-08, 01:06 AM Hey all, I've recently been enrolled in a campaign that starts at ECL 6. I got some relatively weak stats from my DM, originally amounting to a +4 total mod. After some configuration, I managed to improve them (Str 8, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 18 [including the level 4 ability point]). Our party needed some kind of blaster, so I went with a Warlock / Sorcerer / Eldritch Theurge, mostly because I haven't tried a Warlock yet; I'm curious to see how they play out.

Anyways, the game has "half-started," you know what I'm talking about. As such, I have yet to flesh out many details of my character. I got a name, but I'm still on the fence about invocations and spells. I've posted here because I'd greatly appreciate hearing what people have tried with the Eldritch Theurge--I want to know to what effect you've mixed Warlock and Wizard/Sorcerer abilities and what has worked, what has not, etc. I'm not necessarily looking for uber-broken things, I just would like to save myself a lot of reading and cut to the quick. What invocations / spells should I bother with? This campaign is open to all of the 3.5 materials, so let me know what you're thinking of and I'll go find it.

As a reminder my guy is currently Warlock3/Sorcerer3, so still fairly limited. But general tips on how to go about making the Eldritch Theurge "concept" successful would be great.
neceros
01-27-08, 01:10 AM Well, the biggest advantage I would suggest is that your sorcerer should be used to be your utilitarian, like buffs, and of course the useful ability to throw spells inside the Blast can make your actions more powerful per round. Fireball + 6d6 damage isn't bad.

I haven't played an eldritch theurge, but I did make one out of a Warmage. That's interesting!
sauce
01-27-08, 03:46 AM Yeah, I was about to go with Warmage, but felt the Sorcerer offered more utility. The extreme redundancy found in the warmage seems somewhat obsolete when you've got eldritch all the time . . . I could be incorrect, but I think just 1 or 2 flexible damage spells per sorcerer level, combined with the eldritch blast altering invocations amounts to the same thing as the warmage. Plus, I then get access to a huge variety of non-damage spells.

So please advise for more ideas, because warlock/sorcerer gets huge limits in terms of magics known, I don't want to mess it up. Also, advice on feats would be huge. Beyond Empower Magic, I'm not 100% on what I'll get.
neceros
01-27-08, 04:20 AM Well, if you have access to Unearthed Arcana might I suggest Stalwart Sorcerer. I think that's the UA variant.

Anyhow, You lose one of your highest Spells known (when you level up, you lose your highest and regain all of your lower spell slots) in exchange for more hitpoints and the ability to wear light armor and cast spells. I would look into that.

Might I suggest here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=848546
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=751117

These should really help you. Feats, spells and invocations are all talked about in there.
Vapthorne
01-27-08, 09:32 PM I've played an Eldritch Theurge myself; it's more as a wizard/warlock combo and I never made it far into the build, but I'm more than willing to share my experiences.

My design philosophy is to focus on being a warlock with some arcane spell; rather than being a wizard (or sorcerer) with a handful of evocations. With that being said; the warlock's biggest strengths are single-target blasting, mobility, and misc. utility/crowd-control. The spells you're going to pick are should be designed to help you in these areas. This is why Sorcerer and Wizard are ideal... a warmage/warlock Theurge is far too redundant.

For single target blasting: you'll eldritch blast should suffice for damage, so you don't to burn spells. Eldritch Spellweave is great to for a single target nuke. One or two damage spells good for the occasion. Just keep in mind, Eldritch Spellweave needs a Eldritch Essense evocation. Either select a decent low-level essence or but a Eldritch Rod (or whatever the item is call in Complete Mage). This is according to my conversation with CustServ, maybe your DM will say otherwise. Good spells would be those 1-2 trusty Orb spells (maybe a Energy Subsitution/Searing Spell metamagic for variable energies). Seeking Ray is a good spell (although the damage is capped).

Since Warlock's are mobile thanks to Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, and Walk Unseen. You don't have to worry about spell dedicated to this purpose. This will allow you select spells to augment you abilities. For Fell Flight: Wings or Swift Flying is a great spell; as well as Haste (the extra attack is not gravy for a warlock unless he takes. The feat Flyby-attack is great.

Other Invocations can provide utility/crowd control, but you'll want to make none of your spells overlap. For example, don't pick Chilling Tentacles and Evard's Tentacles. The same goes for See the Unseen and See Invisibility.

Protection spells would be another wise investment: Mage Armor, Shield, Displacement.

My Eldritch Theurge, for example, used his spells for protection-based spells (Shield, Alter Self), crowd-control (Web, Glitterdust), self-buffs (Wings of Swift Flying), and a few damage spells for Eldritch Spellweave (Orb of Acid, Disintegrate). My invocations of choice were: Eldritch Spear, See the Unseen, Beguiling Influence, Walk Unseen, Fell Flight, Eldritch Spear, Chilling Tentacles, Virtirilic Blast... I couldn't decide what else at the time. Ofcourse being a wizard, I had the luxary of changing my spells at the expanse of being a MAD warlock (no pun intended). Not to mention, my ability scores weren't that great either.

Spellreach Blast, might be good for Fireballs or Web, but I never found that as a awesome power. I rather have a full round to cast and move (thanks to Fly-by). Great-reach Blast, I'm sure it's great but I think I picked the wrong prohibited schools to maximize it and I consider exchanging it for another Evocation (which is possible by RAW, but ask you DM).

Overall, the Eldritch Theurge is a fun class. I hope you enjoy it.
StevenO
01-27-08, 11:01 PM For starters I don't know how your stats were generated but what is listed started with at least +5 in total modifiers and was the equivalent of Point Buy 29 which is a touch higher than the 28 I'd normally use. If using PB I really would have considered a lower CHA inorder to bring up some of the other stats.

If going for an Eldritch Theurge build at only ECL6 your decisions have already been made. You need Warlock3/Sorcerer4 to get into Eldritch Theurge so that choices is made. Personally, I think the ET is probably a class best avoided because it suffers the same general problem as the Mystic Theurge by requiring three levels is two seperate spellcasting classes. Of course if you are set then I'd better offer a little advice.

As already mentioned you'll basically be using one side to support the other. While a campain may not last that long I'd project which class I'd want to finish out advancing and use that as my primary and the other class as the basic support. Look at 20th level you should be forcasting a 13/17 split; if you used Wizard that 17 would mean 9th level spells but not so with the Sorcerer. Looking at the Warlock side I'd really consider advancing it to the 13th ability level and filling out the arcane side; with Wrlk13 you get 8 invocations of which 2 are Greater but Wrlk17 gain little over Wrlk16 as both only get 10 invocations only one of which is Dark. Because of that I'd use my warlock invocations as the basics for the character's support side and use arcane magic for general blasting plus the occasional utility spell the warlock can't immitate.
sauce
01-28-08, 12:42 AM Wow . . thanks for the incredible response guys.

@ neceros :: The stuff you linked me, after just a few minutes' cursory investigation, is enormous and will [happily] consume a lot of my time. I'll have to make sure to stay focused; while it's awesome to see all these ways of playing the Warlock, I need to just be content with going Warlock/Sorcerer/EldritchTheurge and playing him.

So, I've got lots of information to devour, and I think I'll have a strong build in place by the end of the week, when our game starts back up. I'll definitely share with y'all my final product, whatever it ends up being. If there is any more advice, especially anecdotal evidence, I'd love to hear it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sauce 01-27-08, 01:06 AM	Hey all, I've recently been enrolled in a campaign that starts at ECL 6. I got some relatively weak stats from my DM, originally amounting to a +4 total mod. After some configuration, I managed to improve them (Str 8, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 18 [including the level 4 ability point]). Our party needed some kind of blaster, so I went with a Warlock / Sorcerer / Eldritch Theurge, mostly because I haven't tried a Warlock yet; I'm curious to see how they play out. Anyways, the game has "half-started," you know what I'm talking about. As such, I have yet to flesh out many details of my character. I got a name, but I'm still on the fence about invocations and spells. I've posted here because I'd greatly appreciate hearing what people have tried with the Eldritch Theurge--I want to know to what effect you've mixed Warlock and Wizard/Sorcerer abilities and what has worked, what has not, etc. I'm not necessarily looking for uber-broken things, I just would like to save myself a lot of reading and cut to the quick. What invocations / spells should I bother with? This campaign is open to all of the 3.5 materials, so let me know what you're thinking of and I'll go find it. As a reminder my guy is currently Warlock3/Sorcerer3, so still fairly limited. But general tips on how to go about making the Eldritch Theurge "concept" successful would be great.
neceros 01-27-08, 01:10 AM	Well, the biggest advantage I would suggest is that your sorcerer should be used to be your utilitarian, like buffs, and of course the useful ability to throw spells inside the Blast can make your actions more powerful per round. Fireball + 6d6 damage isn't bad. I haven't played an eldritch theurge, but I did make one out of a Warmage. That's interesting!
sauce 01-27-08, 03:46 AM	Yeah, I was about to go with Warmage, but felt the Sorcerer offered more utility. The extreme redundancy found in the warmage seems somewhat obsolete when you've got eldritch all the time . . . I could be incorrect, but I think just 1 or 2 flexible damage spells per sorcerer level, combined with the eldritch blast altering invocations amounts to the same thing as the warmage. Plus, I then get access to a huge variety of non-damage spells. So please advise for more ideas, because warlock/sorcerer gets huge limits in terms of magics known, I don't want to mess it up. Also, advice on feats would be huge. Beyond Empower Magic, I'm not 100% on what I'll get.
neceros 01-27-08, 04:20 AM	Well, if you have access to Unearthed Arcana might I suggest Stalwart Sorcerer. I think that's the UA variant. Anyhow, You lose one of your highest Spells known (when you level up, you lose your highest and regain all of your lower spell slots) in exchange for more hitpoints and the ability to wear light armor and cast spells. I would look into that. Might I suggest here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=848546 http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=751117 These should really help you. Feats, spells and invocations are all talked about in there.
Vapthorne 01-27-08, 09:32 PM	I've played an Eldritch Theurge myself; it's more as a wizard/warlock combo and I never made it far into the build, but I'm more than willing to share my experiences. My design philosophy is to focus on being a warlock with some arcane spell; rather than being a wizard (or sorcerer) with a handful of evocations. With that being said; the warlock's biggest strengths are single-target blasting, mobility, and misc. utility/crowd-control. The spells you're going to pick are should be designed to help you in these areas. This is why Sorcerer and Wizard are ideal... a warmage/warlock Theurge is far too redundant. For single target blasting: you'll eldritch blast should suffice for damage, so you don't to burn spells. Eldritch Spellweave is great to for a single target nuke. One or two damage spells good for the occasion. Just keep in mind, Eldritch Spellweave needs a Eldritch Essense evocation. Either select a decent low-level essence or but a Eldritch Rod (or whatever the item is call in Complete Mage). This is according to my conversation with CustServ, maybe your DM will say otherwise. Good spells would be those 1-2 trusty Orb spells (maybe a Energy Subsitution/Searing Spell metamagic for variable energies). Seeking Ray is a good spell (although the damage is capped). Since Warlock's are mobile thanks to Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, and Walk Unseen. You don't have to worry about spell dedicated to this purpose. This will allow you select spells to augment you abilities. For Fell Flight: Wings or Swift Flying is a great spell; as well as Haste (the extra attack is not gravy for a warlock unless he takes. The feat Flyby-attack is great. Other Invocations can provide utility/crowd control, but you'll want to make none of your spells overlap. For example, don't pick Chilling Tentacles and Evard's Tentacles. The same goes for See the Unseen and See Invisibility. Protection spells would be another wise investment: Mage Armor, Shield, Displacement. My Eldritch Theurge, for example, used his spells for protection-based spells (Shield, Alter Self), crowd-control (Web, Glitterdust), self-buffs (Wings of Swift Flying), and a few damage spells for Eldritch Spellweave (Orb of Acid, Disintegrate). My invocations of choice were: Eldritch Spear, See the Unseen, Beguiling Influence, Walk Unseen, Fell Flight, Eldritch Spear, Chilling Tentacles, Virtirilic Blast... I couldn't decide what else at the time. Ofcourse being a wizard, I had the luxary of changing my spells at the expanse of being a MAD warlock (no pun intended). Not to mention, my ability scores weren't that great either. Spellreach Blast, might be good for Fireballs or Web, but I never found that as a awesome power. I rather have a full round to cast and move (thanks to Fly-by). Great-reach Blast, I'm sure it's great but I think I picked the wrong prohibited schools to maximize it and I consider exchanging it for another Evocation (which is possible by RAW, but ask you DM). Overall, the Eldritch Theurge is a fun class. I hope you enjoy it.
StevenO 01-27-08, 11:01 PM	For starters I don't know how your stats were generated but what is listed started with at least +5 in total modifiers and was the equivalent of Point Buy 29 which is a touch higher than the 28 I'd normally use. If using PB I really would have considered a lower CHA inorder to bring up some of the other stats. If going for an Eldritch Theurge build at only ECL6 your decisions have already been made. You need Warlock3/Sorcerer4 to get into Eldritch Theurge so that choices is made. Personally, I think the ET is probably a class best avoided because it suffers the same general problem as the Mystic Theurge by requiring three levels is two seperate spellcasting classes. Of course if you are set then I'd better offer a little advice. As already mentioned you'll basically be using one side to support the other. While a campain may not last that long I'd project which class I'd want to finish out advancing and use that as my primary and the other class as the basic support. Look at 20th level you should be forcasting a 13/17 split; if you used Wizard that 17 would mean 9th level spells but not so with the Sorcerer. Looking at the Warlock side I'd really consider advancing it to the 13th ability level and filling out the arcane side; with Wrlk13 you get 8 invocations of which 2 are Greater but Wrlk17 gain little over Wrlk16 as both only get 10 invocations only one of which is Dark. Because of that I'd use my warlock invocations as the basics for the character's support side and use arcane magic for general blasting plus the occasional utility spell the warlock can't immitate.
sauce 01-28-08, 12:42 AM	Wow . . thanks for the incredible response guys. @ neceros :: The stuff you linked me, after just a few minutes' cursory investigation, is enormous and will [happily] consume a lot of my time. I'll have to make sure to stay focused; while it's awesome to see all these ways of playing the Warlock, I need to just be content with going Warlock/Sorcerer/EldritchTheurge and playing him. So, I've got lots of information to devour, and I think I'll have a strong build in place by the end of the week, when our game starts back up. I'll definitely share with y'all my final product, whatever it ends up being. If there is any more advice, especially anecdotal evidence, I'd love to hear it.