At my level... [Archive] - Wizards Community

At my level... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dreamer3333
10-14-04, 12:08 PM Hey there...

My DM doesn't like to give out the amount of treasure for any given CR battle, like it says in the book.
Needless to say, we (as PCs) don't tend to (ever) have very much money. (Interestingly enough, we hardly have any wizards play either...could be a connection there :) ).
He says that he'd rather plan specific magic items, customized to a particular player, and let us "find" them, than give us gold to buy much magic stuff. Now, I understand this from the point of view that the magic items have a stronger personal meaning/attachment this way.
The problem is we don't get to buy "other" magic stuff, cuz we're always so broke.

This has many ramifications. It also makes encounters harder than they likely "should" be, since I'm assuming that at Nth level, you're expected to have Xgp worth of magical items. If we don't , then we're not "fully" as powerful as some might expect.
1) Is there a guideline somewhere that says how much GP (total; equipment + treasure) a character should have at any given level. (maybe like "starting gold" for nth level characters?)
As an example, my 8th level Paladin has +1ChainMail, +1 Greatsword, and about 200gp. This seems low to me.
(Granted, i'm likely "due" for an upgrade, since another character in teh group just got +2fullplate and a +3 warhammer) but even still, that's ALL the magic HE has, and he only has 200gp too.

2) When giving out treasure, do you use "market price" to value the goods you give out, even though when you sell them, you can hardly ever get much more than 50% for them?
Seems that unuseable magic items are a total waste of treasure, when compared to finding actual gold pieces or trade bars (which are valued EXACTLY as what they are)

- Not really complaining, just trying to gauge where we're at in comparison to other groups.

- Dreamer
Fendoan
10-14-04, 12:41 PM 1) Yes, there is a guideline in the DMG as to how much net worth a player should have at each level. It is a table in the campaigns section. That includes all magical items, mundane items, and cash on hand. When I DM, I periodically ask my characters to tally up their net worth, and see who is in and out of line.

With only a +1 weapon, and +1 armor, you are significantly underpowered at this point. With no other magic items, I'd expect that at around 4th-5th level, with a couple masterwork items and potions.

Your friend with the +3 weapon and +2 armor is very close to where he should be now in net worth.

If these are all the magical items you are getting, your DM needs to learn there is more to the game than weapons and armor. Potions are a good item for this. Cloaks of resistance are other items that are easy to hand out.

2) As a DM, I consider the full magical price as their net worth in handing out stuff. I try to give out very few items that are worthless to a party. I have given out items (Ring of Warmth) that many party members thought to be worthless. I highly discourage players from just selling off magic items. If they do, I take it off of their target net worth, unless it is something they absolutely cannot use due to alignment or class constraints. That's fairly rare in a party of 5. Player's are free to distribute loot amongst themselves however they see as fair. Sometimes this does end up with one person having twice as much worth as another, but its what they chose to do.
allenchan
10-14-04, 02:18 PM Also you are correct that CR is based heavily on expected gold/magic items. If you dont have the magic items to penetrate a DR, for example, then the encounter is going to be much harder then the CR would indicate.
Aerunation
10-14-04, 02:54 PM Not only all that said above, but the treasure the monster is supposed to hold should be determined(rolled) before the encounter. Any magic items that monster/character has, he/she should be using them against you. When you defeat them, you take the items. You must have defeated NPCs with magic itmes at that level.... you should have taken them:)
Cold Napalm
10-14-04, 11:05 PM Nothing is so frustrating as having level 15 characters using +2 weapons and +1 armor and getting you ass handed to you by CR 9 critters and the DM going you get 200 exp because they were CR 9 and your CR 15. BS with out proper eq we are CR 12...MAYBE. I have a DM who heavly does this. I counter by using very broken builds and told him I would stop when he decides to give us standard treasure or standard exp. So far he has not and I'm the only one who truely thrives in his game...We had a near TPK when he sent one cr 15 critters after a party of 6 level 15 characters and a level 14 NPC...this is a problem.

Sounds like your in the same boat dreamer...
Arak the mighty
10-14-04, 11:28 PM A low power campaign can be very fun and rewarding IF DONE PROPERLY!

Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like your DM is doing that.

I ran a campaign a while back that was low magic and the PC's were always scraping for gold. It was designed this way though, and almost all of the NPC's, villains, and enemies were tailor made for the PC's and the campaign. Without being able to rely on gold and magic loot to bail them out of every situation, they were forced to focus a LOT more on teamwork, guile, wits, and strategy. They had to pick their fights carefully. They had to know their enemies weaknesses and strengths before they could be reasonably sure of victory, and they had to try to force the fights to be on their terms.

HOWEVER, knowing what my PC's had, and what they were (and were not) capable of killing, I never threw them up against something that they wouldn't be able to hurt.

End thoughts........... It doesn't sound like this is what your DM is going for, he's just not giving you the right amount of stuff, compared to what you're up against. Talk to him about it, and (not knowing how long he's DM'd) I'd suggest he really read through the DM guide and make sure he understands that if you DONT have the proper amount of equip for characters of your level, you can't be expected to handle encounters of the proper level.
darczero
10-15-04, 04:50 AM Overall, Magic Items are best when spread evenly across the types. Obviously, scrolls are only useful to some characters, but the other class-specific items can generally be sold for lots of money. Otherwise, by 8th level (~27,000 GP value) a character should have a +2 weapon, +1 armor and shield (or +2 armor), and the rest (about 15-17k) should be spread out between Wondrous Items, potions, and scrolls/wands.

Unfortunately, the writers of the game have seen a lot more value than any player I've known has with wands, scrolls, and potions. Under the right circumstances, yes, these items can be useful; however, they aren't as great as some seem to think. I'm not saying that every instance of a potion, scroll, or wand should be rerolled when determining treasure; they can be sold.

Of course, many DM's (myself included) don't believe that magic items should be available at the corner grocery store, or even in every town on the map. The characters either have to make the items themselves, or find the few people who can make such items.

However, my players still manage to get lots of magic items (amounts appropriate for their levels), even though I have made absolutely certain that they can't just buy them in every town they enter.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dreamer3333 10-14-04, 12:08 PM	Hey there... My DM doesn't like to give out the amount of treasure for any given CR battle, like it says in the book. Needless to say, we (as PCs) don't tend to (ever) have very much money. (Interestingly enough, we hardly have any wizards play either...could be a connection there :) ). He says that he'd rather plan specific magic items, customized to a particular player, and let us "find" them, than give us gold to buy much magic stuff. Now, I understand this from the point of view that the magic items have a stronger personal meaning/attachment this way. The problem is we don't get to buy "other" magic stuff, cuz we're always so broke. This has many ramifications. It also makes encounters harder than they likely "should" be, since I'm assuming that at Nth level, you're expected to have Xgp worth of magical items. If we don't , then we're not "fully" as powerful as some might expect. 1) Is there a guideline somewhere that says how much GP (total; equipment + treasure) a character should have at any given level. (maybe like "starting gold" for nth level characters?) As an example, my 8th level Paladin has +1ChainMail, +1 Greatsword, and about 200gp. This seems low to me. (Granted, i'm likely "due" for an upgrade, since another character in teh group just got +2fullplate and a +3 warhammer) but even still, that's ALL the magic HE has, and he only has 200gp too. 2) When giving out treasure, do you use "market price" to value the goods you give out, even though when you sell them, you can hardly ever get much more than 50% for them? Seems that unuseable magic items are a total waste of treasure, when compared to finding actual gold pieces or trade bars (which are valued EXACTLY as what they are) - Not really complaining, just trying to gauge where we're at in comparison to other groups. - Dreamer
Fendoan 10-14-04, 12:41 PM	1) Yes, there is a guideline in the DMG as to how much net worth a player should have at each level. It is a table in the campaigns section. That includes all magical items, mundane items, and cash on hand. When I DM, I periodically ask my characters to tally up their net worth, and see who is in and out of line. With only a +1 weapon, and +1 armor, you are significantly underpowered at this point. With no other magic items, I'd expect that at around 4th-5th level, with a couple masterwork items and potions. Your friend with the +3 weapon and +2 armor is very close to where he should be now in net worth. If these are all the magical items you are getting, your DM needs to learn there is more to the game than weapons and armor. Potions are a good item for this. Cloaks of resistance are other items that are easy to hand out. 2) As a DM, I consider the full magical price as their net worth in handing out stuff. I try to give out very few items that are worthless to a party. I have given out items (Ring of Warmth) that many party members thought to be worthless. I highly discourage players from just selling off magic items. If they do, I take it off of their target net worth, unless it is something they absolutely cannot use due to alignment or class constraints. That's fairly rare in a party of 5. Player's are free to distribute loot amongst themselves however they see as fair. Sometimes this does end up with one person having twice as much worth as another, but its what they chose to do.
allenchan 10-14-04, 02:18 PM	Also you are correct that CR is based heavily on expected gold/magic items. If you dont have the magic items to penetrate a DR, for example, then the encounter is going to be much harder then the CR would indicate.
Aerunation 10-14-04, 02:54 PM	Not only all that said above, but the treasure the monster is supposed to hold should be determined(rolled) before the encounter. Any magic items that monster/character has, he/she should be using them against you. When you defeat them, you take the items. You must have defeated NPCs with magic itmes at that level.... you should have taken them:)
Cold Napalm 10-14-04, 11:05 PM	Nothing is so frustrating as having level 15 characters using +2 weapons and +1 armor and getting you ass handed to you by CR 9 critters and the DM going you get 200 exp because they were CR 9 and your CR 15. BS with out proper eq we are CR 12...MAYBE. I have a DM who heavly does this. I counter by using very broken builds and told him I would stop when he decides to give us standard treasure or standard exp. So far he has not and I'm the only one who truely thrives in his game...We had a near TPK when he sent one cr 15 critters after a party of 6 level 15 characters and a level 14 NPC...this is a problem. Sounds like your in the same boat dreamer...
Arak the mighty 10-14-04, 11:28 PM	A low power campaign can be very fun and rewarding IF DONE PROPERLY! Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like your DM is doing that. I ran a campaign a while back that was low magic and the PC's were always scraping for gold. It was designed this way though, and almost all of the NPC's, villains, and enemies were tailor made for the PC's and the campaign. Without being able to rely on gold and magic loot to bail them out of every situation, they were forced to focus a LOT more on teamwork, guile, wits, and strategy. They had to pick their fights carefully. They had to know their enemies weaknesses and strengths before they could be reasonably sure of victory, and they had to try to force the fights to be on their terms. HOWEVER, knowing what my PC's had, and what they were (and were not) capable of killing, I never threw them up against something that they wouldn't be able to hurt. End thoughts........... It doesn't sound like this is what your DM is going for, he's just not giving you the right amount of stuff, compared to what you're up against. Talk to him about it, and (not knowing how long he's DM'd) I'd suggest he really read through the DM guide and make sure he understands that if you DONT have the proper amount of equip for characters of your level, you can't be expected to handle encounters of the proper level.
darczero 10-15-04, 04:50 AM	Overall, Magic Items are best when spread evenly across the types. Obviously, scrolls are only useful to some characters, but the other class-specific items can generally be sold for lots of money. Otherwise, by 8th level (~27,000 GP value) a character should have a +2 weapon, +1 armor and shield (or +2 armor), and the rest (about 15-17k) should be spread out between Wondrous Items, potions, and scrolls/wands. Unfortunately, the writers of the game have seen a lot more value than any player I've known has with wands, scrolls, and potions. Under the right circumstances, yes, these items can be useful; however, they aren't as great as some seem to think. I'm not saying that every instance of a potion, scroll, or wand should be rerolled when determining treasure; they can be sold. Of course, many DM's (myself included) don't believe that magic items should be available at the corner grocery store, or even in every town on the map. The characters either have to make the items themselves, or find the few people who can make such items. However, my players still manage to get lots of magic items (amounts appropriate for their levels), even though I have made absolutely certain that they can't just buy them in every town they enter.