Attack, Hide, Attack, Hide . . . Is this legal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attack, Hide, Attack, Hide . . . Is this legal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gurthoron
05-11-05, 03:42 PM I've been playing a high level rogue with maxed Hide, a Mantle of Epic Stealth, and a total of a hideous hide modifier. While reading the entry on Hide I came across that hiding can be a free action. Thus, I used it in combat to take a full attack option then hide, with concealment granted by the cloak. Is this legal or would this action be more like sniping? (having a move action to hide after the attack)

Any advice on this is valued.
Salla
05-11-05, 04:11 PM You can't hide while being observed, so this does not work. As far as I know, Sniping is the only way to use the Hide skill to make Sneak Attacks in mid-fight.

(If he can afford a Mantle of Epic Stealth, why doesn't he just get something with Greater Invisibility on it?)
Neely
05-11-05, 04:29 PM Interesting...
and what if you're a high level ranger with the "Hide In Plain Sight" feat? This would allow you to vanish while being observed.
snowlynx
05-11-05, 04:59 PM You might be hidden (if you have hide in plain sight) but they can still attack the square they THINK you're in, just as a PC can attack an invisible monster.
eudas
05-11-05, 05:51 PM 1. Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you.

2. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

3. You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.

4. If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.
4. a. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

5. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide.

6. there are two different varieties of HIPS in the SRD:
a. rangers - Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.
b. shadowdancers - Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 8th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind.
He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.

these are only a few key points pertaining to your question.

i wouldn't think that the cloak would grant concealment for purposes of hiding (being that it's being worn by you), but i don't have a full definition of its properties. if it's epic, it may be that silly.

summary: go back through all the rules pertaining to the question and try to figure out the answer again. i don't have a definitive answer for you, but i really, really doubt that you can do it the way you're thinking/describing it.

eudas
Always-Late
05-11-05, 08:00 PM There's the 3.5 rule sniping, and then you can't hide behind a cloak. People shoot the cloak.
Samusic
05-12-05, 12:24 AM Well, as a ranger/scout if I have shot on the run could I, say, run out from a tree and shoot then hide behind another tree provided that a) it's a surprise attack and the target is previously unaware of my existance or b) it's in the middle of combat and nobody is paying attention to me to begin with because they are busy fighting my fellows? In either case I was never seen (or noticed as a threat) to begin with. I do agree, though, that it would be difficult to hide once someone has taken note of you and has a pretty good idea of where you are.

*Edited for horrible symantics
Geethree
05-12-05, 02:34 AM The DM should be applying common sense to this situation. Assuming the rogue were in a situation where he could hide after attacking (such as peeking out from behind a tree and throwing a dagger; I don't know anything about that cloak), the enemy would be confused, definitely. However, the rogue could not continue to do this for long before being spotted, and then the enemy would know where he was.

I really don't know what the rules say about this, but considering you're dealing with epic items and a dodgy section of the rules to begin with, I'd just wing it. If I were the DM, I would give the enemy an additional +10 to spot every time you tried to attack (the bonus would be cumulative).

If the normal sniping rules apply, I'd use that.
Interesting...
and what if you're a high level ranger with the "Hide In Plain Sight" feat? This would allow you to vanish while being observed.That's not what the ability means. It's not a magic spell. You still need cover or concealment to hide.
Xzavyr
05-12-05, 04:10 AM http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=423601 A similar discussion, but involving Spring Attack.

To an extent, you can. After you attack you take a -20 to your hide, so it's less effective. Also note that you can only hide as a free action as part of a move action. You can only attempt to hide after an attack if you have a move action remaining; IE: only allowing one attack in a round. As others have noted, if you're just standing in one spot attacking and then hiding, your oppenents can still try and hit you by attacking the square they were attacked from, albeit at a 90% miss chance.

For those that were wondering, here is the cloak. (I think)
From the SRD:
Mantle of Great Stealth: The wearer of this cloak gains a +30 bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. The wearer’s outline is blurry and indistinct, granting concealment (20% miss chance) at all times (as the blur spell). The mantle also grants nondetection to its wearer (as the spell).
Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Epic Wondrous Item, blur, invisibility, nondetection, silence; Market Price: 242,000 gp; Weight: 1 lb.

That's not what the ability means. It's not a magic spell. You still need cover or concealment to hide.
The Ability itself doesn't, but the circumstances in which it can be used does. A Ranger who has this ability would also have Camouflage, allowing them to ignore the cover restrictions. The Shadowdancer's verion also ignores cover restrictions, but has to be used within 10 feet of a shodow that is not their own.
Ulorian
05-12-05, 06:46 AM I've been playing a high level rogue with maxed Hide, a Mantle of Epic Stealth, and a total of a hideous hide modifier. While reading the entry on Hide I came across that hiding can be a free action. Thus, I used it in combat to take a full attack option then hide, with concealment granted by the cloak. Is this legal or would this action be more like sniping? (having a move action to hide after the attack)

Any advice on this is valued.The Hide description does not call Hide a free action. What it does say is that Hide is not even an action; rather, you make the attempt as part of a move action. That means you can't make a full attack and hide in the same round, because you haven't made a move action that round. There is one exception: sniping. Sniping (making a single ranged attack and hiding in the same round) uses up an entire round: the attack is your standard action and hiding after the attack is your move action. This is fully described on p.76 of the 3.5 PHB.

This means there are several problems with the combat scenario you described.

1) You can't hide while being observed (unless you make a Bluff check). This means that you can't make melee attacks then try to hide (unless you make that Bluff check). Note: A successful Bluff check doesn't mean you've managed to hide: it only means that you are now allowed to make a Hide check to see if you can hide.

2) Sniping:
a) you must use a ranged weapon from at least 10 feet away, and you must be successfully hidden from your target before the attack
b) you can only make a single attack
c) you must use a move action to hide and this check is at -20 (this means you can't move away from the spot you made the attack from, since you've used your move action to hide)

The only way you could do what you've described is this:

1) Make a single melee attack - you can't make a full round attack because Hide requires you to use a move action.
2) Make a Bluff check. If this is successful, you can make a Hide check. Normally, you would need something to hide behind, but your cloak grants you concealment, so you can use that to hide.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gurthoron 05-11-05, 03:42 PM	I've been playing a high level rogue with maxed Hide, a Mantle of Epic Stealth, and a total of a hideous hide modifier. While reading the entry on Hide I came across that hiding can be a free action. Thus, I used it in combat to take a full attack option then hide, with concealment granted by the cloak. Is this legal or would this action be more like sniping? (having a move action to hide after the attack) Any advice on this is valued.
Salla 05-11-05, 04:11 PM	You can't hide while being observed, so this does not work. As far as I know, Sniping is the only way to use the Hide skill to make Sneak Attacks in mid-fight. (If he can afford a Mantle of Epic Stealth, why doesn't he just get something with Greater Invisibility on it?)
Neely 05-11-05, 04:29 PM	Interesting... and what if you're a high level ranger with the "Hide In Plain Sight" feat? This would allow you to vanish while being observed.
snowlynx 05-11-05, 04:59 PM	You might be hidden (if you have hide in plain sight) but they can still attack the square they THINK you're in, just as a PC can attack an invisible monster.
eudas 05-11-05, 05:51 PM	1. Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. 2. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. 3. You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. 4. If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. 4. a. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. 5. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. 6. there are two different varieties of HIPS in the SRD: a. rangers - Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed. b. shadowdancers - Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 8th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow. these are only a few key points pertaining to your question. i wouldn't think that the cloak would grant concealment for purposes of hiding (being that it's being worn by you), but i don't have a full definition of its properties. if it's epic, it may be that silly. summary: go back through all the rules pertaining to the question and try to figure out the answer again. i don't have a definitive answer for you, but i really, really doubt that you can do it the way you're thinking/describing it. eudas
Always-Late 05-11-05, 08:00 PM	There's the 3.5 rule sniping, and then you can't hide behind a cloak. People shoot the cloak.
Samusic 05-12-05, 12:24 AM	Well, as a ranger/scout if I have shot on the run could I, say, run out from a tree and shoot then hide behind another tree provided that a) it's a surprise attack and the target is previously unaware of my existance or b) it's in the middle of combat and nobody is paying attention to me to begin with because they are busy fighting my fellows? In either case I was never seen (or noticed as a threat) to begin with. I do agree, though, that it would be difficult to hide once someone has taken note of you and has a pretty good idea of where you are. *Edited for horrible symantics
Geethree 05-12-05, 02:34 AM	The DM should be applying common sense to this situation. Assuming the rogue were in a situation where he could hide after attacking (such as peeking out from behind a tree and throwing a dagger; I don't know anything about that cloak), the enemy would be confused, definitely. However, the rogue could not continue to do this for long before being spotted, and then the enemy would know where he was. I really don't know what the rules say about this, but considering you're dealing with epic items and a dodgy section of the rules to begin with, I'd just wing it. If I were the DM, I would give the enemy an additional +10 to spot every time you tried to attack (the bonus would be cumulative). If the normal sniping rules apply, I'd use that. Interesting... and what if you're a high level ranger with the "Hide In Plain Sight" feat? This would allow you to vanish while being observed.That's not what the ability means. It's not a magic spell. You still need cover or concealment to hide.
Xzavyr 05-12-05, 04:10 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=423601 A similar discussion, but involving Spring Attack. To an extent, you can. After you attack you take a -20 to your hide, so it's less effective. Also note that you can only hide as a free action as part of a move action. You can only attempt to hide after an attack if you have a move action remaining; IE: only allowing one attack in a round. As others have noted, if you're just standing in one spot attacking and then hiding, your oppenents can still try and hit you by attacking the square they were attacked from, albeit at a 90% miss chance. For those that were wondering, here is the cloak. (I think) From the SRD: Mantle of Great Stealth: The wearer of this cloak gains a +30 bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. The wearer’s outline is blurry and indistinct, granting concealment (20% miss chance) at all times (as the blur spell). The mantle also grants nondetection to its wearer (as the spell). Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Epic Wondrous Item, blur, invisibility, nondetection, silence; Market Price: 242,000 gp; Weight: 1 lb. That's not what the ability means. It's not a magic spell. You still need cover or concealment to hide. The Ability itself doesn't, but the circumstances in which it can be used does. A Ranger who has this ability would also have Camouflage, allowing them to ignore the cover restrictions. The Shadowdancer's verion also ignores cover restrictions, but has to be used within 10 feet of a shodow that is not their own.
Ulorian 05-12-05, 06:46 AM	I've been playing a high level rogue with maxed Hide, a Mantle of Epic Stealth, and a total of a hideous hide modifier. While reading the entry on Hide I came across that hiding can be a free action. Thus, I used it in combat to take a full attack option then hide, with concealment granted by the cloak. Is this legal or would this action be more like sniping? (having a move action to hide after the attack) Any advice on this is valued.The Hide description does not call Hide a free action. What it does say is that Hide is not even an action; rather, you make the attempt as part of a move action. That means you can't make a full attack and hide in the same round, because you haven't made a move action that round. There is one exception: sniping. Sniping (making a single ranged attack and hiding in the same round) uses up an entire round: the attack is your standard action and hiding after the attack is your move action. This is fully described on p.76 of the 3.5 PHB. This means there are several problems with the combat scenario you described. 1) You can't hide while being observed (unless you make a Bluff check). This means that you can't make melee attacks then try to hide (unless you make that Bluff check). Note: A successful Bluff check doesn't mean you've managed to hide: it only means that you are now allowed to make a Hide check to see if you can hide. 2) Sniping: a) you must use a ranged weapon from at least 10 feet away, and you must be successfully hidden from your target before the attack b) you can only make a single attack c) you must use a move action to hide and this check is at -20 (this means you can't move away from the spot you made the attack from, since you've used your move action to hide) The only way you could do what you've described is this: 1) Make a single melee attack - you can't make a full round attack because Hide requires you to use a move action. 2) Make a Bluff check. If this is successful, you can make a Hide check. Normally, you would need something to hide behind, but your cloak grants you concealment, so you can use that to hide.