Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gixanthrax 03-11-08, 07:43 AM	Here is my, (or better: our groups problem): We have nearly finished theforge of fury, and there is only one place we have not explored yet, but we know from other denizens of the dungeon, that a "quite young but still dangerous dragon of blackish colour" has set up his lair in a big grotto with a small beach and a lake... This did not make us really happy, because the last time we met a "quite young" black dragon in its lair, it was a TPK, allthough with different characters, all about lvl 7-8 Currently we are considering three options: Fighting. Going to the surrounding woods, grab some xp to level all to lvl 5, then go shopping and afterwards return to fight the dragon. Simply ending the adventure without trying to fight the dragon. Our party currently consists of: Dwarven Cleric of Hanseath(domains: war and travel),just reached lvl 5 Dwarven Ranger, at the beginning of lvl 4 ( missed one session), no anima companion yet Dwarven Barbarian 300xp away from reaching lvl 5 Dwarven Rogue, also very close to lvl 5 Gnomish sorcerer. also quite close to lvl 5( spells already selected: 1stlvl spells: Magic missile, mage armor, ray of enfeeblement 2nd lvl:scorching ray) with a raven familiar. Currently our recognizeable magical gear consists of: +1 Rapier, +1 Bastard Sword(with which noone of us is proficient), 3 wands of CLW(nearly full), 1 potion of each: invisibility, swimming, water breathing and 4 scrolls of true strike. And we got about 1500 GP to spend(the whole party together) maybe we can sell the rapier and the BS... Core only, maybe we are not even allowed to buy anything safe trail rations and ammunition( non magical) So if we decided to fight the dragon, how should we prepare? what should we buy? Which spells to prepare(cleric, ranger) which spells to learn( sorc) if we manage to level up before we encounter the dragon? Options we already considered: Ranger, cleric and Sorc summon aquatic animals to weaken and confuse the dragon, ranger and barbarian try their archery skills. Cleric casts waterbreathing on all of the party and we try a waterborne assault. Cleric tries to reach and touch the dragon to give it water walk, so he cant hide/ use his advantage We know that we are pwned if the dragon manages to pull one of us underwater or manages to have full attacks against a single target. We dont want to risk bringing our sorc close enough to use her rays because she is quite squishy. So any advice what to do? Or even better: how to successfully defeat the dragon. Thanks for your help.
Solo_Phoenix 03-11-08, 09:03 AM	My first thought is don't get in the water, you're at a huge disadvantage to damage from your weapons. Try any ways you can think of to get the dragon out of the water and negate it's advantage, call it a kobold until it gets too angry not to attack. Dragons have an appalling touch AC, so the sorceress' rays are likely to be effective, but they do indeed have a nastily short range and sorcs are indeed squishy, perhaps not the best way to go about it. If you're going to go shopping I'd reccomend scrolls/potions of Resist/Protection from Energy: Acid. Breath weapons are not fun. Random thought: If you can afford a scroll of fly, you could have the sorc hover 30ft or so above the dragon and blast scorching rays down from where she can't be touched. Obviously the Protection from Energy would apply here. As long as the thing is lured onto land, you can't go too wrong with the head on approach, Barb and Cleric hitting the thing with bits of heavy/sharp metal, Rogue flanking and delivering sneak attack damage, Ranger (Assuming archery focus) and Sorc hang back and fire arrows/rays. It seems like this will be your only encounter for the day, so the cleric can go to town buffing every one up with handy spells.
Windspear 03-11-08, 09:20 AM	One thing you can do is improvise granades. You take a bottle of dwarven ale and stick alchemist's fire in it. Throw at dragon, enjoy fireworks. Other than that, have the cleric buff the barb and himself, so they both charge hed-on into the dragon's face. Rogue flanks, ranger and sorc support. I also like the idea of leveling up in the woods. It's a good idea. Have the sorc use mage armor, and have her learn shield and use it on herself
toucanbuzz 03-11-08, 09:49 AM	I am running this adventure for my group (they hit level 4 midway), and they obtained the info you have that a dragon lives below. Wisely (at 3rd level at the time), they chose to forgo an encounter, but I have a feeling they'll be in your shoes soon. If you haven't explored the rest of the caverns (and there's a lot to explore), you can probably wrest more XP from this adventure to get folks to 5th level. I'd take a day on the surface for an animal companion cause you'll need all the help you can get. If you fight a dragon in its natural environment, you of course are at a serious disadvantage. Since you know it's a black, and you'll be fighting underground with water, you know the obstacles. 1. Cleric use of Protection from Acid (3rd level) or Resist Energy. If the Ranger has access to spells, Resist Energy is 1st level for him. Water Walk is an interesting tactic, but your cleric will have to touch the beast, and who knows where you'll be when that occurs! 2. Cleric Summon Monster II to get 1d3 weak aquatic creatures to "flush" out the dragon. 3. Composite bow for the barbarian and/or ranger. If you can sell the weapons locally, you might be able to invest in bows that can take advantage of PC strength to damage. Have true strike tossed on them as the aquatics flush the dragon out (hopefully). A pair of (nearly) automatic ranged hits should bring the dragon your way. Once in view, your sorcerer can begin to peg away with ranged spells. 4. If you can force the dragon to land, you probably have this one over (I'd give the potion of swimming and water breathing to the barbarian, possibly even Water Walk, to be able to maneuver around). 5. Roll 20s. :)
GoBackToRussia 03-11-08, 10:12 AM	Took us two goes this encounter. We summoned lots of porpoises and eventualy beat him down Good thing is you'll be able to see him with your darkvision - remember not to stand in a big line and cast resist acid on your main fighter
Shadowshimmer 03-11-08, 11:26 AM	We just slayed a Black Dragon but that was only because the Elven Ranger had one Arrow of Dragon Slaying and the player rolled a 20.
gixanthrax 03-11-08, 11:37 AM	I am running this adventure for my group (they hit level 4 midway), and they obtained the info you have that a dragon lives below. Wisely (at 3rd level at the time), they chose to forgo an encounter, but I have a feeling they'll be in your shoes soon. If you haven't explored the rest of the caverns (and there's a lot to explore), you can probably wrest more XP from this adventure to get folks to 5th level. I'd take a day on the surface for an animal companion cause you'll need all the help you can get. If you fight a dragon in its natural environment, you of course are at a serious disadvantage. Since you know it's a black, and you'll be fighting underground with water, you know the obstacles. 1. Cleric use of Protection from Acid (3rd level) or Resist Energy. If the Ranger has access to spells, Resist Energy is 1st level for him. Water Walk is an interesting tactic, but your cleric will have to touch the beast, and who knows where you'll be when that occurs! 2. Cleric Summon Monster II to get 1d3 weak aquatic creatures to "flush" out the dragon. 3. Composite bow for the barbarian and/or ranger. If you can sell the weapons locally, you might be able to invest in bows that can take advantage of PC strength to damage. Have true strike tossed on them as the aquatics flush the dragon out (hopefully). A pair of (nearly) automatic ranged hits should bring the dragon your way. Once in view, your sorcerer can begin to peg away with ranged spells. 4. If you can force the dragon to land, you probably have this one over (I'd give the potion of swimming and water breathing to the barbarian, possibly even Water Walk, to be able to maneuver around). 5. Roll 20s. :) Damn, i neraly forgot the resist/protection spells, thanks for reminding me. Btw, I am the cleric. I already considered preparing water walk twice, once for the party, once to touch the dragon. Unfortunately i only got 2 3rd lvl. spells. Ok, 3resist energy(if thats the 2nd lvl spell) will be prepared and used on barbarian, cleric and sorc. Ranger already got a strength modified Composite longbow. Sorc shall receive his fly(domain spell) even though i would rather recommend to give it the barbarian with the greataxe. Sorc shall use true strike to first employ ray of enfeeblement and than scorch away. Ranger summons a flying creature,so does the sorc. meanwhile others try to shoot at dragon. If the waterwalking of the dragon does not work, we will have to summon aquatic creatures( won't unfortunately not be that many..) and of course we will try to take point 5 into consideration
Sunic_Flames 03-12-08, 11:52 AM	Tanglefoot bag from your best thrower. The dragon is likely Medium, so a good chance of success.
fishfinger 03-13-08, 07:41 PM	if you want my advise by a large sized bag of corn and alot of liquid pain, and hire alot of rangers heres my plan first off barbarian goes in and leaves the stuff there and moves back to a safe distance he can watch as the dragon chows down, sorc fires fireball at it thus make the corn pop and expand, congrats you have a 50% chance of dislocating its jaw, now in the mean time the barb steps forward and hacks into it, the rouge sneaks around behind it and attempts a sneak attack, in the mean time all the rangers step forward with bows arrows, crossbows, blow guns what ever you can of liquid pain this has ALOT off efects on it i think its like 2d6 str 2d6 dex 2d6 con damage it gets a fort save of god knows what, it'll probably take you a month to get everything sorted my advise is to talk to the rangers guild if theres one around, if not convince the towns people the dragon will attack unless its paid a tribute, now theres 2 options here 1) hide yourself away within the tribute and coup de grace the dragon while its sleeping 2) same as before but launch a full attack when its awake but seriously drugging it and taking it down that way would be best, but on a side note on the topic of drugs get you sorc to do some alchemy i know its not there style but hell he's a gnome, make some kind of nerve gas that has three effects 1st effect: 2d6 str, dex and con damage 2nd damage: as above 3rd damage: as above this should completely take the dragon out if not weaken it so much it could even surrender if not it will run (either way kill it and take its stuff) also withv your sorc before you engage in combat have him cast "Eagle's splendor" on himself so his DC's go up then cast grease above it so it falls and slaps on its back then hit it with a fireball so it starts to burn then after that use... silent image to make it belive its buried under some rocks or something of the sort or my personal favrioute is to get a lot of village girls to come and bath the dragon but bath it in grease or something highly combustable and fireball its ass and give it no way out hope i helped some
Cartigan 03-13-08, 07:57 PM	You realize Bastard Swords can be wielded two handed as a martial weapon, right?
gixanthrax 03-14-08, 11:19 AM	@ cartigan,yes i know thereof, but our tank prefers to wear a shield to boost his AC. @fishfinger: I'm sorry but you did not help at all. I'm afraid you did not even read the whole of my first message. Lerning fireball and eagles splendor is out of reach for our sorc and to be earnest, your whole plan sounds a little whacky. The next city is 3 days away so motivating that many citizens to help us will be difficult, as i said before our monetary resources are quite limited and the most important: No drugs, no poison, because a.) where to get it? b.) our sorc does not have any ranks in alchemy yet c.) our DM will set an unbeatable DC to it d.) we will all die trying to apply it e.) our DM would constantly use it against us Oh, and BTW thanks for trolling around because all of your proposals are quite BS.
Kraz 03-14-08, 11:37 AM	@ cartigan,yes i know thereof, but our tank prefers to wear a shield to boost his AC. You said you're playing core only right? And I'm guessing the 'tank' is your barbarian? Tell him to sell the shield and use the bloody bastardsword, otherwise you're party is going to be dragon chow. If he doesn't, be prepared for a TPK, since the dragon will ignore your 'tank', eat the squishies, then just breath weapon him to death out of boredom.
Sunic_Flames 03-14-08, 12:19 PM	You said you're playing core only right? And I'm guessing the 'tank' is your barbarian? Tell him to sell the shield and use the bloody bastardsword, otherwise you're party is going to be dragon chow. If he doesn't, be prepared for a TPK, since the dragon will ignore your 'tank', eat the squishies, then just breath weapon him to death out of boredom. Also, to elaborate further: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15322525&postcount=25 :D ...Why did he blow a feat on something that makes him less effective anyways? He might as well have taken Improved Break Own Treasure.
gixanthrax 03-14-08, 01:36 PM	well, but i would say, let him attack with his dwarven Masterwork waraxe for which he has weapon focus and use his shield rather than holding a BS with two hands... With the DWA his attack bonus is higher by one point, with the BS his damage is greater by two( +1 magical damage, plus 1 from wielding it in two hands at astrength score of 16). At low levels i rather prefer "better chance to hit with less damage" . Oh and no, he does not have power attack. Concepts like "battlefield control" don't exist in his vocabulary and the only thing he is capable of is playing dwarven barbarian/fighter mixes. Oh and i would really appreciate some help in choosing which spells to prepare/learn btw, he did not blow a feat for the BS we just found it during the dungeon crawl. Well the party is not that squishy( well, the sorc maybe) but the dwarven rogue and greataxe wielding cleric in fullplate can stand some oposition...
Kraz 03-14-08, 01:51 PM	well, but i would say, let him attack with his dwarven Masterwork waraxe for which he has weapon focus and use his shield rather than holding a BS with two hands... With the DWA his attack bonus is higher by one point, with the BS his damage is greater by two( +1 magical damage, plus 1 from wielding it in two hands at astrength score of 16). At low levels i rather prefer "better chance to hit with less damage" . Oh and no, he does not have power attack. Ah, then in that case have him throw away the shield and use the axe two-handed. He should hopefully be raging during the battle, which would have +4 to his strength, so there's a few more points in damage for him. And even at higher levels, heavy armor just means the enemy walks around you(since you're too slow to keep up with them) and rapes the squishies.
Cartigan 03-14-08, 02:15 PM	@ cartigan,yes i know thereof, but our tank prefers to wear a shield to boost his AC. Then tell your "tank," ie Barbarian, to use the bloody Bastard Sword. For something that can kick your ass, a good offense > a good defense. Especially in a game where there isn't a real "aggro" skill.
Sunic_Flames 03-14-08, 02:20 PM	Only plays beatstick types... and can't even do it right... Even Krusk got the hang of greataxe/falchion/etc + PA smashing. Is it even possible to be less intelligent than a half orc barbarian? And of course, real tanks are trippers. Or failing this, hit hard enough to keep the enemies' attention (see: 2 hander + PA above). Otherwise they're just difficult terrain to walk around. And I'll have to pass out the ketchup. :P
fishfinger 03-15-08, 10:11 AM	No drugs, no poison, because a.) where to get it? b.) our sorc does not have any ranks in alchemy yet c.) our DM will set an unbeatable DC to it d.) we will all die trying to apply it e.) our DM would constantly use it against us a) hire an experianced alchamist PHB under goods and services b) understandable as its mainly a wizards thing but its not uncommon for sorcs to have ranks in alchemy c) quote the BoVD at him and see how he likes it or Alchemy and Herbalists d) hire an assassin to apply it to your weapons have you rogue blag it as a favor if not cough up the gold for it if you really want to take this MFing draggy down e) with that said he cannot use it against you
Dravda 03-15-08, 08:10 PM	Oh, and BTW thanks for trolling around because all of your proposals are quite BS. Um...you're welcome? Seriously, I'm tempted not to post this, but whatever. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20060328a -Count Dravda
Necroramo 03-15-08, 11:42 PM	Glitterdust + something to resist his breath weapon
Sunic_Flames 03-16-08, 04:30 PM	Um, Dravda? I think he's talking to the drug guy. :P
Maekrix_Waere 03-17-08, 12:35 AM	Pity you can't use Frostburn...3d6 Dex damage would take that dragon down in 6 seconds flat... Failing that, I'd try and find someone with the Draconomicon. It has an entire chapter dedicated to teaching players how to hunt dragons. Some of it you won't be able to use, but most of it is Core only (:yuck:), and you will be able to use.
kelvinaw273 03-17-08, 03:46 AM	OK, well your Resist Energy is a good idea, and you need to lure this thing into melee as much as possible and then mob him. If you can get a strong character to grapple him and bring him down to earth, that's the way to do it. Remember that a black dragon of that age will have a sucky AC compared to you, and the best tactic he can employ is to fly out of his pool, breath or fly-by attack and return to the pool before you react. Summoning creatures into the pool is a good idea, as is pouring oil over the surface and lighting it. I would have your cleric concentrate on Resist Energy and Summoning, while your Sorc can blast away at it if it stays at a distance. Keep an Energy Resisted fighter by your sorc to deter it from singling him out. If it can't escape back to the pool, then it's likely to try and single out a target for attack; whoever it attacks is best off grappling it to hold it in place until help arrives - this may hurt, but it'll hurt the dragon more.
fishfinger 03-17-08, 10:43 AM	the dragon has a cave right? ok heresw my plan, you need a few crafts but theres if you don't have craft carpentry and some other stuff just hire some people. but heres my plan 1) hire some workers to build a guilotine big enough to cover the cave entrance but not in town you will have to get them to come with you to the cave and construct it there. 2) the day you go to the cave, have the cleric prepare, silance, so the workers can work away and not disturb the dragon, once everything is in place your set, workers go home and its left with you and your party make sure the guilotine activation switch on a ledge above the save this will be vital 3) now your ready to kill the dragon and how you perform this is all about timing have the ranger and the sorc stand about 60ft away from the cave entrance, the barbarian standing on the ledge ready above flip the switch and just for kicks have the rogue next to him so your flanking him from above so he gains his sneak attack (this will be vital if something goes wrong) this leaves the cleric, the cleric will have to be bait, while the sorc and ranger hide, the rogue and barb are already out of sight so it looks to the dragon that its just a single cleric. now heres how it has to play out i) sorc casts ghost sound to call the dragon ii) the dragon emerges and this is where the DM would say roll init iii) suprise round, from the party, ranger takes a ranged attack, sorc magic missile or ray of enfeeblement, rogue sneak attack barb flips the switch on the guilotine and takes its head off. now in order for this to work properly the barbarian needs to have profession executioner BoVD page 40 "headman's axe" you need to roll a profession executioner DC check of 18 in order to kill it right off the bat, you instantly sever its head, now reading about barbarian it doesn't have a profession. now my players don't usualy worry about craft and profession so now would be a good time to fill that in the rogue would be the best bet, the barb would have to meat shield the rogue then, but remember you only have one chance at this even if you fail its still a coup de grace the draggy must make a fort save or die and on that note checking the escape DC for it, all it says here is ** i'm guessing that means there isn't asn escape DC so either way you would take its had off, it probably has to make a mass damage fort save which would be difficult even for a dragon of that age. its a full proof plan better then standing around making drugs and such. so you have to trek around for almost a week before even starting it you said theres 3 days to the nearest city so 3 there 3 back 1 day set up battle day 8 days in game, that should pass in about 5 minutes then you get to it, even if you have no ranks in profession executioner you can straight roll it. no chopping block needed the whole entrance of the cave will have to be the space where this huge guilotine passes through. think of this device as one of those you would find in a dungeon. you know the one where a peice of wire comes rushing towards you at about knee hight, make a reflex throw or have your legs cut off. works the same way, if a guilotine is to big to lug around unless you have a bag of holding you could improvise with a 50ft steel wire thats been sharpened to an insaine level, you would have to aquire this before you leave town which could take todays, so your looking at 10 days game time to do this but well worth it, hope it helps in the unlikely event of you've used all your profession and craft slots this also works as a nevermiss trap takes 1 stanndard action to complete
kelvinaw273 03-17-08, 01:01 PM	Except that if you trip the guillotine too early or late you may miss. The DM will likely give it a Reflex saving throw, and unless you have the guillotine enchanted to be a vorpal weapon, it'll just do straight damage anyway. Possibly the least fool-proof plan I have yet seen. Dragons are intelligent, and guillotine is an execution device, not a trap or a weapon. Sure, it works great if your target is tied down with their neck in just the right place, but I somehow don't think that the Dragon will oblige you, and if it did you could save yourself the hassle of building a great big guillotine by simply administering a coup-de-grace. Convincing yourself that this kind of plan is fool-proof is one of the fastest ways I know of getting a TPK. What IS a good idea is setting traps for the dragon and luring it out into them. Unfortunately, it's probably got a second exit from it's lair (underwater, most likely) and so it may decide to come after you that way. Dragons, even small ones, are intelligent. Don't ever expect it to act stupid just for your benefit.
fishfinger 03-18-08, 01:03 PM	still i figured it would be effective if you could lure it out enough just to get its long neck out, remember dragons do have long necks the i'm not saying its a good idea i'm saying is possible and the most practicle for low levels, either that or you can somehow knock it off a cliff we all know dragons fall faster then they can fly. also for the guilotine trap trick thing a good idea to get it tied dows is maybe a bunch of rope like 100ft long and an animate rope spell thus reducing it to 50ft and tie the rope around its neck to the side of the guilotine structure hey gotta give me points for trying i know its not the best idea but still DC 18 profession exocutioner check if you pass you kill it. if you fail it takes a massive damage fort save if it fails that it dies so bleh i figure win win situation if it passes it takes massive damage which would probably minimum of 50hp which is a nice big chunk of hp off if you can find the dragons second route out blow it up somehow, scroll of fireball should do it, but like i said its AN idea not the best not the worse, also just for the record if the draong attacks the ranger cleric and sorc in front of him technically the BARB will be above and behind him same with the rogue so flanking bonuses, high bonus +1 (some DM's give that) rogue gets sneak attack, if it turns around to get the rogue and barb ranger cleric and sorc now have flanking bonuses, pesonaly if it was me i would jump on the back of the dragon if the guilotine idea failed and sneak attack into its back or barb jumps on makes a grapple check, rogue jumps onto the barb and grapples the barb who is grappling the draggon then sneak attack, rogues in this situation will get a reflex save to grapple the thing again
Gentlemanic 03-18-08, 02:21 PM	Try some tanglefoot bags to keep it grounded. A scroll of web will also root it to the ground.
Holy_Beholder 03-18-08, 11:31 PM	Creep up to the dragon in its sleep. While it is asleep tie its feet together, muzzle it, tie lead weights to its wings, fill its lair with alcohol, then coup de grace it with 1 flaming crossbow bolt per person in the party. Oh yeah, and use a silence spell on its lair before you do this. Also use chains not rope. Tying the tail to the ground is also a good idea. Another possibility is to poison the dragon. Go find a giant scorpion. Remove its poison. Send the poison to the dragon, on sheep. Diseased sheep also work well. A third possibility. On all the entrances to the lair open a permanent portal to the fire elemental plane. That is about the size of the entrance. After a month or so, remove the portals. Or combine them. Creep up to the dragon, tie and muzzle it, fill its lair with alchohol, send in a bunch of diseased sheep which have poison attached to them, then open the permanent portal to the elemental plane of fire. A fourth fun possibility. Get a decanter of endless water, turn it to geyser, and chuck it in the lair. Then seal all the entrances. Flood the entire place. Also open a permanent portal to the water elemental plane. Also drop in a few inhaled poisons, that are taken in through water breathing. Also, poisoned and diseased squid can be used instead of sheep in this process.
EvilCouch 03-19-08, 02:14 AM	Young Black Dragon has a grapple check of +12. An enlarged 5th level Barbarian with a 16 STR (before enlarge) has a grapple check of +13 Add in Bull's Strength to your buddy and he goes to +15. Add in Ray of Enfeeblement on the dragon, and he goes to +11 or less. If the Ranger and the Cleric feel like doing Aid Other, that's another +4 for your Barbarian. Total difference of 8. Roll a 12 or higher on the opposed grapple and you automatically succeed. I'm too lazy to do the math, but it's something like an 80% chance of pinning him the first round. Then, it's stabby time for the rogue and blasty time for the sorcerer. Not terribly exciting for the Cleric and Ranger, but in the end, as long as the dragon goes down, everything's cool, right?
Sunic_Flames 03-19-08, 12:08 PM	I want to know how you plan on doing all this stuff to the sleeping dragon without waking it up. Or for that matter getting near it without blindsense auto detection waking it up.
Holy_Beholder 03-19-08, 08:34 PM	Silence at least deals with listen. And odds are that there is running water and stuff moving around nearby that blindsense will pick up, and the dragon can't wake up at every stupid deer(or worse cockroach).
Sunic_Flames 03-19-08, 10:22 PM	None of which address spending a good deal of time physically attaching objects to the dragon. :rolleyes: