Awakened Animal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Awakened Animal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Callista
04-29-05, 03:39 PM I've heard of people playing an Awakened animal (as with the druid spell), and I think it would be kind of cool to try. But I'm not sure how to go about it.

First of all, how do I do the stats for, say, an awakened cat? What changes, what doesn't? Would I roll the mental stats normally and without any adjustment, as for a human PC, or do they adjust downwards if I'm not using 3d6 to generate them?

What's the level adjustment? I can't see any (of course), since animals are not supposed to be player characters...

And how do I take advantage of what the animal has got, and minimize the disadvantages? I'm thinking, with most animal being unable to manipulate things with their paws, that it would be advantageous to do something like a raccoon or monkey...

So, yeah, some advice would be needed, before I can figure out if this even works! It would be a very unusual PC, in any event.
EvilVegan
04-29-05, 04:02 PM I just used DMG and MM1 to generate all this.

Generate stats normally (through whatever means, point buy or rolling)

Awakened House Cat mods:

* -8 Strength, +4 dex, +2 Wisdom
* Size Tiny (+2 to hit and AC +8 to hide checks)
* Base speed 30 ft
* Cats have a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks. Cats have a +8 racial bonus on Balance checks. They use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8.

2 racial hitdice (from the awaken spell)
Magical Beast Type
Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2. Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits.
Features
A magical beast has the following features:
10-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Natural attacks 2 claws (1d2+str) and bite (1d3+1/2 str)
Favored class = rogue.

I wouldn't put a LA on a cat, since it has trouble using equipment and a net negative to his ability scores (though his racial bonuses to skills are outstanding).
Keenath
04-29-05, 05:26 PM But how would you work out the LA of, say, a tiger?

It can wear barding, and it's got all the natural weapons it could need (so the lack of hands is less of an issue). It can be a powerful druid, a decent fighter, or any of several other classes.

Just because it's an animal doesn't mean it's little.
DM Denubis
04-29-05, 06:22 PM "Aww... Look at the kitty..."

*Sneak attack +10d6.*

Anyhow... I'm not sure what kind of level adjustment is really needed. I would consult the savage species "Anthropomorphic" thing. It's similar, so it is, and it might give you some ideas. ^^
EvilVegan
04-29-05, 07:31 PM Well there are ways to calculate LA, but a tiger would be very high.

+12 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Wis, - 2 Cha
Size Large
Improved Grab
Pounce
Rake
Racial Bonuses to skills: +4 balance, hide, move silently, +8 to hide in tall grass.
8 racial hitdice.
Favored Class: Barbarian.
At least +3 or 4 LA. Probably way higher than that.

But the thought of a house cat with +10d6 on a bite is spectacularly funny.
Callista
04-29-05, 07:46 PM Okay, I'm seriously thinking of playing a level 20 awakened raccoon (using Monkey stats)! Yeah, I know it's weird; but this is only gonna be one session.

Backstory summary: The character used to be a wizard's familiar, until the wizard grew very old. Knowing that his familiar would lose its intelligence and personality when he died, and by now regarding the creature as a close friend, the wizard developed a spell to make the creature's intelligence permanent (and to allow it to use the cantrip Message at will, kinda like the Ghostwise Halfling's Speak Without Sound... would that make things too powerful? Also, does a familiar have its lifespan extended to the length of its master? A mouse familiar, with a lifespan of two years or less, wouldnt' be very useful...)

Should do the job to explain an intelligent animal.

So, anyhow--Favored Class: Wizard would seem right in this case, though frankly with a raccoon, you'd think "rogue" right away. This is probably going to be single-classed, anyway, or evenly multiclassed...

Okay: What I need to play is either a wizard or a cleric, or both. We have a sorcerer; but all he's providing is blasting power (which is cool, don't get me wrong) and not utility/battlefield control stuff. And we don't have a healer-type cleric at all. So I'm thinking either a cleric with the Magic domain, or a wizard with the feat Arcane Disciple; or a Mystic Theurge...

Would that work?
EvilVegan
04-29-05, 08:15 PM Raccoon (Using Monkey)
Str - 8, Dex +4, Wis +2, Cha -2
Racoons have a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. They use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb checks.
2 racial hit dice (if you use awaken)
* gives 2d10 hit dice, (2+int modifier)x5 in skill points, 2 BAB, +3 Fort/Ref, bite 1d3+str
Magical beast subtype

Can something have a negative LA? :)

If your DM is working with you, or you're the DM, I'd make up one that has no racial hit dice, since those are bad for casters.
Callista
04-29-05, 08:30 PM Well, it'd be a spellcaster; so there really wouldn't be any disadvantages to such a low strength.

Those Hit Dice... I wonder if I couldn't just replace them with the d4 or d6 hit dice of whatever class I choose?
EvilVegan
04-29-05, 08:37 PM Well, that would actually hurt you. Unless you mean substitute the HD for class levels, which would just mean you started out at 2nd level.

Its going to take some talking to with your DM regardless.
Callista
04-29-05, 08:57 PM Yeah, that's what I meant. Like with the 1/2 hit dice of certain monsters, just drop the hit dice and replace them with your class levels.

But the tiny size of the animal is an advantage for casters... so wouldn't the balance of the thing be thrown off if you didn't also include the level adjustment given by the extra d10s?
EvilVegan
04-29-05, 09:04 PM Well technically they aren't level adjustments, they're Class levels in the Magical Beast Class. (complete with BAB, Saves, Hit points, skill points, etc). If it has a level adjustment AND racial hitdice AND class levels you add all three together to get ECL. That's why things like Thri-kreen are terrible PC races for casters (+2 LA, 2 racial hit dice, a 1st level thrikreen caster won't gain 3rd level spells until 9th or 10th level.)

But yea, ask the DM if its ok to forget about the racial hit dice altogether, just go with the ability mods, natural attacks, and racial skill bonuses and class levels.
Thorak
04-30-05, 01:49 AM Personally, I don't think animals need an LA. Sure, they're strong combat-wise, generally. Especially at lower levels. But how great is the Tiger's 3 attacks going to look, even with an Amulet of Natural Weapons +5, compared to the Human Fighter's +5 Flaming/Shocking/Icy Greatsword of Wounding?

Not to mention; hands are used for whole craploads of things beyond wielding weapons. Good luck turning door handles. Or picking up something tiny or that you're unwilling to put in your mouth. Also, good luck interacting with people who don't scream and run when a tiger walks into the village. They won't stick around long enough to hear you talk.

Also, consider that they have racial HD. Those aren't as bad as an LA, but they're still basically levels without class abilities, and help to offset the large attribute bonuses. The Tiger has basically 8 levels of racial HD; if it got about +4 every level in stat bonuses, and throw in Pounce and Rake in there on a couple with reduced stat bonuses, that'd make a decent progression right there. The Dragon Disciple gets +14 in stat bonuses over 10 levels, and a crapload of other stuff. +24 over 8 levels, and only two other abilities, doesn't seem too massively overbalanced. Especially combined with the no hands bit.

Good luck picking up, for instance, coins.
Da Dinictus
04-30-05, 04:34 AM Good luck picking up, for instance, coins.Nothing a pint-sized Hewards Handy Haversack can't solve :D
gavalicks
04-30-05, 10:53 AM An Awaken Animal Keeps it normal Physical Stats (Dex, Con, Wisdom, and Str)
It gains 3d6 intelligence (Instead of 1, or 2), +1d6 additional Chrisma and +2HD
Consider a Magical Beast (But does not count toward your Animal Companion, special Mount, or Familiar)

No level Adjusmtent, then again they can't take classes either.

Which means yes it Likes you, but will leave if miss treated.

It allows them to be more better helpers the problem is they are NPC which means you can tell them what you like to do but the DM has control over the actions.

However a Hengyoki is an intelligent animal so it must have been awake somewhere in its linage and they get a +1 lvl adjustment and can take classes but it is up to the DM. If he allows all awaken creatures to be Hengyoki then (Hehehe) don't argue.
Thorak
04-30-05, 03:09 PM An Awaken Animal Keeps it normal Physical Stats (Dex, Con, Wisdom, and Str)
It gains 3d6 intelligence (Instead of 1, or 2), +1d6 additional Chrisma and +2HD
Not entirely true. Stats in the MM are the assumed average. They're generated with 10s or 11s in each stat. That's why the Tiger, with a Strength of 23, has a +12 to Strength; 11 base +12 for being a Tiger.

If you look in the rules for improving monsters, it describes all this, as well as ways to adjust them for if you actually roll stats, or use the elite array.

And for a PC, you roll stats. You wouldn't have the animal's physical stats as written in the MM for the exact same reason that a human PC doesn't have all 10s and 11s.
No level Adjusmtent, then again they can't take classes either.
Where on earth did you get that idea? Any creature can take class levels. There's absolutely no reason you couldn't have, say, an unAwakened Wolf who'd been raised as a pitfighting beast, who in addition to being a Wolf also had a couple levels of Fighter. There's nothing about being either nonhumanoid or low intelligence that prevents taking a class.
Taeldrin Laesrash
05-01-05, 08:51 AM You know what's fun? Playing an animal who became sentinent from an Intensified Awaken. That's 38 Int. And about 22 Cha, and 4 extra HD. In fact, I'm playing a druid so my next character can be just that.
Callista
05-01-05, 06:42 PM ...but... wow, that would be a truly insane level adjustment. A 38 INT--BEFORE items, wishes, et cetera? I mean, my level 20 wizard had only a 30 INT, including a +6 item--and she was a gray elf too!
EvilVegan
05-02-05, 10:47 AM So 4 racial Hitdice
+28 to intelligence
+12 to Charisma
Going with Cat
-8 Str
+2 Wis
+4 Dex

So +38 net to ability scores?

Somewhere between +4 and +10 LA, 4 Racial Hitdice. A cat could cast a whole lot of hard/impossible to resist 1st level spells by level 9.

Have fun with that.
Need_A_Life
05-02-05, 03:23 PM I had a link for a thread like this... They worked out LAs for animals... I remember that toad had a -2 LA.

And a cat rogue with 10d6 sneak attack appeals to me... I'd stack up on Bluff for those 'cute-innocent'-look before you move in for the kill, catching them flatfooted... bonus if you're two and you flank the guy...
EvilVegan
05-02-05, 04:11 PM Well I own 6 cats, and they all have at least 3 levels of rogue.
Lincoln Hills
05-03-05, 05:47 PM Heck, EvilVegan, I could use cats to explain the concepts of Evasion and Uncanny Dodge to new players... ;) Also Kip Up and Unbounded Leap. Hm. Maybe all cats have three levels of monk? - no, wait, incompatible alignment. :P

But keep up the discussion, folks. I don't have any awakened animals in my campaign, but it's easier for my guys to acquire reincarnation than it is for any other kind of life-restoring magic. So the LAs and similar for 'awakened animals' could come up unexpectedly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callista 04-29-05, 03:39 PM	I've heard of people playing an Awakened animal (as with the druid spell), and I think it would be kind of cool to try. But I'm not sure how to go about it. First of all, how do I do the stats for, say, an awakened cat? What changes, what doesn't? Would I roll the mental stats normally and without any adjustment, as for a human PC, or do they adjust downwards if I'm not using 3d6 to generate them? What's the level adjustment? I can't see any (of course), since animals are not supposed to be player characters... And how do I take advantage of what the animal has got, and minimize the disadvantages? I'm thinking, with most animal being unable to manipulate things with their paws, that it would be advantageous to do something like a raccoon or monkey... So, yeah, some advice would be needed, before I can figure out if this even works! It would be a very unusual PC, in any event.
EvilVegan 04-29-05, 04:02 PM	I just used DMG and MM1 to generate all this. Generate stats normally (through whatever means, point buy or rolling) Awakened House Cat mods: * -8 Strength, +4 dex, +2 Wisdom * Size Tiny (+2 to hit and AC +8 to hide checks) * Base speed 30 ft * Cats have a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks. Cats have a +8 racial bonus on Balance checks. They use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8. 2 racial hitdice (from the awaken spell) Magical Beast Type Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2. Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits. Features A magical beast has the following features: 10-sided Hit Dice. Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). Good Fortitude and Reflex saves. Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Natural attacks 2 claws (1d2+str) and bite (1d3+1/2 str) Favored class = rogue. I wouldn't put a LA on a cat, since it has trouble using equipment and a net negative to his ability scores (though his racial bonuses to skills are outstanding).
Keenath 04-29-05, 05:26 PM	But how would you work out the LA of, say, a tiger? It can wear barding, and it's got all the natural weapons it could need (so the lack of hands is less of an issue). It can be a powerful druid, a decent fighter, or any of several other classes. Just because it's an animal doesn't mean it's little.
DM Denubis 04-29-05, 06:22 PM	"Aww... Look at the kitty..." Sneak attack +10d6. Anyhow... I'm not sure what kind of level adjustment is really needed. I would consult the savage species "Anthropomorphic" thing. It's similar, so it is, and it might give you some ideas. ^^
EvilVegan 04-29-05, 07:31 PM	Well there are ways to calculate LA, but a tiger would be very high. +12 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Wis, - 2 Cha Size Large Improved Grab Pounce Rake Racial Bonuses to skills: +4 balance, hide, move silently, +8 to hide in tall grass. 8 racial hitdice. Favored Class: Barbarian. At least +3 or 4 LA. Probably way higher than that. But the thought of a house cat with +10d6 on a bite is spectacularly funny.
Callista 04-29-05, 07:46 PM	Okay, I'm seriously thinking of playing a level 20 awakened raccoon (using Monkey stats)! Yeah, I know it's weird; but this is only gonna be one session. Backstory summary: The character used to be a wizard's familiar, until the wizard grew very old. Knowing that his familiar would lose its intelligence and personality when he died, and by now regarding the creature as a close friend, the wizard developed a spell to make the creature's intelligence permanent (and to allow it to use the cantrip Message at will, kinda like the Ghostwise Halfling's Speak Without Sound... would that make things too powerful? Also, does a familiar have its lifespan extended to the length of its master? A mouse familiar, with a lifespan of two years or less, wouldnt' be very useful...) Should do the job to explain an intelligent animal. So, anyhow--Favored Class: Wizard would seem right in this case, though frankly with a raccoon, you'd think "rogue" right away. This is probably going to be single-classed, anyway, or evenly multiclassed... Okay: What I need to play is either a wizard or a cleric, or both. We have a sorcerer; but all he's providing is blasting power (which is cool, don't get me wrong) and not utility/battlefield control stuff. And we don't have a healer-type cleric at all. So I'm thinking either a cleric with the Magic domain, or a wizard with the feat Arcane Disciple; or a Mystic Theurge... Would that work?
EvilVegan 04-29-05, 08:15 PM	Raccoon (Using Monkey) Str - 8, Dex +4, Wis +2, Cha -2 Racoons have a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. They use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb checks. 2 racial hit dice (if you use awaken) * gives 2d10 hit dice, (2+int modifier)x5 in skill points, 2 BAB, +3 Fort/Ref, bite 1d3+str Magical beast subtype Can something have a negative LA? :) If your DM is working with you, or you're the DM, I'd make up one that has no racial hit dice, since those are bad for casters.
Callista 04-29-05, 08:30 PM	Well, it'd be a spellcaster; so there really wouldn't be any disadvantages to such a low strength. Those Hit Dice... I wonder if I couldn't just replace them with the d4 or d6 hit dice of whatever class I choose?
EvilVegan 04-29-05, 08:37 PM	Well, that would actually hurt you. Unless you mean substitute the HD for class levels, which would just mean you started out at 2nd level. Its going to take some talking to with your DM regardless.
Callista 04-29-05, 08:57 PM	Yeah, that's what I meant. Like with the 1/2 hit dice of certain monsters, just drop the hit dice and replace them with your class levels. But the tiny size of the animal is an advantage for casters... so wouldn't the balance of the thing be thrown off if you didn't also include the level adjustment given by the extra d10s?
EvilVegan 04-29-05, 09:04 PM	Well technically they aren't level adjustments, they're Class levels in the Magical Beast Class. (complete with BAB, Saves, Hit points, skill points, etc). If it has a level adjustment AND racial hitdice AND class levels you add all three together to get ECL. That's why things like Thri-kreen are terrible PC races for casters (+2 LA, 2 racial hit dice, a 1st level thrikreen caster won't gain 3rd level spells until 9th or 10th level.) But yea, ask the DM if its ok to forget about the racial hit dice altogether, just go with the ability mods, natural attacks, and racial skill bonuses and class levels.
Thorak 04-30-05, 01:49 AM	Personally, I don't think animals need an LA. Sure, they're strong combat-wise, generally. Especially at lower levels. But how great is the Tiger's 3 attacks going to look, even with an Amulet of Natural Weapons +5, compared to the Human Fighter's +5 Flaming/Shocking/Icy Greatsword of Wounding? Not to mention; hands are used for whole craploads of things beyond wielding weapons. Good luck turning door handles. Or picking up something tiny or that you're unwilling to put in your mouth. Also, good luck interacting with people who don't scream and run when a tiger walks into the village. They won't stick around long enough to hear you talk. Also, consider that they have racial HD. Those aren't as bad as an LA, but they're still basically levels without class abilities, and help to offset the large attribute bonuses. The Tiger has basically 8 levels of racial HD; if it got about +4 every level in stat bonuses, and throw in Pounce and Rake in there on a couple with reduced stat bonuses, that'd make a decent progression right there. The Dragon Disciple gets +14 in stat bonuses over 10 levels, and a crapload of other stuff. +24 over 8 levels, and only two other abilities, doesn't seem too massively overbalanced. Especially combined with the no hands bit. Good luck picking up, for instance, coins.
Da Dinictus 04-30-05, 04:34 AM	Good luck picking up, for instance, coins.Nothing a pint-sized Hewards Handy Haversack can't solve :D
gavalicks 04-30-05, 10:53 AM	An Awaken Animal Keeps it normal Physical Stats (Dex, Con, Wisdom, and Str) It gains 3d6 intelligence (Instead of 1, or 2), +1d6 additional Chrisma and +2HD Consider a Magical Beast (But does not count toward your Animal Companion, special Mount, or Familiar) No level Adjusmtent, then again they can't take classes either. Which means yes it Likes you, but will leave if miss treated. It allows them to be more better helpers the problem is they are NPC which means you can tell them what you like to do but the DM has control over the actions. However a Hengyoki is an intelligent animal so it must have been awake somewhere in its linage and they get a +1 lvl adjustment and can take classes but it is up to the DM. If he allows all awaken creatures to be Hengyoki then (Hehehe) don't argue.
Thorak 04-30-05, 03:09 PM	An Awaken Animal Keeps it normal Physical Stats (Dex, Con, Wisdom, and Str) It gains 3d6 intelligence (Instead of 1, or 2), +1d6 additional Chrisma and +2HD Not entirely true. Stats in the MM are the assumed average. They're generated with 10s or 11s in each stat. That's why the Tiger, with a Strength of 23, has a +12 to Strength; 11 base +12 for being a Tiger. If you look in the rules for improving monsters, it describes all this, as well as ways to adjust them for if you actually roll stats, or use the elite array. And for a PC, you roll stats. You wouldn't have the animal's physical stats as written in the MM for the exact same reason that a human PC doesn't have all 10s and 11s. No level Adjusmtent, then again they can't take classes either. Where on earth did you get that idea? Any creature can take class levels. There's absolutely no reason you couldn't have, say, an unAwakened Wolf who'd been raised as a pitfighting beast, who in addition to being a Wolf also had a couple levels of Fighter. There's nothing about being either nonhumanoid or low intelligence that prevents taking a class.
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-01-05, 08:51 AM	You know what's fun? Playing an animal who became sentinent from an Intensified Awaken. That's 38 Int. And about 22 Cha, and 4 extra HD. In fact, I'm playing a druid so my next character can be just that.
Callista 05-01-05, 06:42 PM	...but... wow, that would be a truly insane level adjustment. A 38 INT--BEFORE items, wishes, et cetera? I mean, my level 20 wizard had only a 30 INT, including a +6 item--and she was a gray elf too!
EvilVegan 05-02-05, 10:47 AM	So 4 racial Hitdice +28 to intelligence +12 to Charisma Going with Cat -8 Str +2 Wis +4 Dex So +38 net to ability scores? Somewhere between +4 and +10 LA, 4 Racial Hitdice. A cat could cast a whole lot of hard/impossible to resist 1st level spells by level 9. Have fun with that.
Need_A_Life 05-02-05, 03:23 PM	I had a link for a thread like this... They worked out LAs for animals... I remember that toad had a -2 LA. And a cat rogue with 10d6 sneak attack appeals to me... I'd stack up on Bluff for those 'cute-innocent'-look before you move in for the kill, catching them flatfooted... bonus if you're two and you flank the guy...
EvilVegan 05-02-05, 04:11 PM	Well I own 6 cats, and they all have at least 3 levels of rogue.
Lincoln Hills 05-03-05, 05:47 PM	Heck, EvilVegan, I could use cats to explain the concepts of Evasion and Uncanny Dodge to new players... ;) Also Kip Up and Unbounded Leap. Hm. Maybe all cats have three levels of monk? - no, wait, incompatible alignment. :P But keep up the discussion, folks. I don't have any awakened animals in my campaign, but it's easier for my guys to acquire reincarnation than it is for any other kind of life-restoring magic. So the LAs and similar for 'awakened animals' could come up unexpectedly.