Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AvlonaSkullCleaver 01-26-08, 02:34 PM	I am about to start playing DnD with a new friend from school. I have the PHB, DMG, DMG2, MM1, and a couple others that I got from a cousin who bought them at an estate sale but ended up not having time. Saddly my DM (friend) is out of town this weekend (the weekend I am going to polish up on all the basics). I am planning on playing either a Fighter or Barbarian. I usually play barbarians (hot blonde chick barbarian with an axe the size of a child is just damn sexy), but I heard that Fighter is good for beginers and have great potential. But I am having a little trouble with BAB and how it effects Two weapon fighting. I am asking these questions because I am having trouble finding the answers and being very new it is hard to follow multiple entries and figure out how they apply to one another. Lets start simple. *BAB = +6/+1 using a short sword. Assuming I dont get any attack bonuses from other places. Does this mean I get two attacks (as a full round action I believe), the first is +6 attack and the other is +1, or I can make 2 attacks with +1 for both. *Next up is general Two weapon fighting. Level 1 fighter with Two Weapon Fighting feat, Battle Ax and Handax (light). The fighter would swing both weapons as a standard action, correct? Do they both get seperate rolls? Or do the attack mods effect the same number on the die? (as in d20 = 13 is used as base for both numbers). *BAB +6/+1. Two Weapon Fighting. Would it look something like this: Main hand +6, Main hand +1, Off hand +6? *BAB +6/+1. Improved Two Weapon fighting. Main hand +6, Main hand +1, Off hand +6, Off hand +1. I hope I asked these question in a way easy to understand. I learn best by example (which sadly is something the DnD books dont offer). Is there any place online that does DnD "couching" or tutorials? PErhaps a book? Thanks for the help in advance.
StevenO 01-26-08, 03:20 PM	Often times the Barbarian is actually better for the DnD beginner than a Fighter is. With the Barbarian you have more hp to survive the "oops" but more importantly you don't need to be nearly as familiar with the feats available. With the Barbarian all you need to do is figure out how to select feats that interact well with the rest of your abilities while with a Fighter ALL of your abilities are based on the feats you choose. Now for the questions: 1. BAB +6/+1 (this is really just BAB +6 but shows the later/itterative attacks you can make) means you can make one attack with a weapon at +6 (as a standard action) and an additional attack at +1 should you choose to make a full attack (instead of just the standard attack.) Why would you want to make two attacks at +1 when you can take +6 for the first attack? 2. TWF at 1st level. With BAB +1 you can only make one attack as a standard action although you can choose which weapon to use. As a full attack you can make attacks with each weapon, rolling seperately, although you apply a penalty to all attack for fighting with two weapons. 3. BAB +6 with TWF: You still only get on attack with a standard action at your highest BAB. Some feats may allow different things but TWF is not one of them. As a Full Attack you actually have a couple options: You could just make you basic itterative attack (+6/+1) and use either weapon for either attack, otherwise you can take that full attack with one weapon and use the other for a bonus attack giving you something that looks like +6/+1/+6 but these need to be penalized for TWF. 4. Improved TWF requires a full attack to use. It basically allows an itterative attack with the "off-hand" weapon. Now I have mentioned the penalty for attacking with two weapons but they haven't been included in the above numbers. Normally they are something like -4 (main)/-10 (secondary) although a light secondary weapon reduces the penalty by 2; taking the TWF feat lowers the penalty to -4/-4 if using a one-handed weapon as your off-hand weapon but -2/-2 is more common for using lighter weapons.
NoldorForce 01-26-08, 03:22 PM	I am planning on playing either a Fighter or Barbarian. I usually play barbarians (hot blonde chick barbarian with an axe the size of a child is just damn sexy), but I heard that Fighter is good for beginers and have great potential.That bolded section is a bit fishy; fighters not done well are generally inferior to most other things not done well. Though fighters done well can be very good, as the two Lockdown (aelryinth and archerpwr) builds have shown. My suggestion would be to play something like a Duskblade if you're a beginner. It's possible to do really well with many of the classes, but if you don't have much experience you're apt to run into some mechanical minefields. (Whirlwind Attack, for instance, is a feat that looks great but is nigh-impossible to use well.)*BAB = +6/+1 using a short sword. Assuming I dont get any attack bonuses from other places. Does this mean I get two attacks (as a full round action I believe), the first is +6 attack and the other is +1, or I can make 2 attacks with +1 for both.You get one attack at +6 and one attack at +1. As you guessed, you'll need a full-round action to use both.*Next up is general Two weapon fighting. Level 1 fighter with Two Weapon Fighting feat, Battle Ax and Handax (light). The fighter would swing both weapons as a standard action, correct? Do they both get seperate rolls? Or do the attack mods effect the same number on the die? (as in d20 = 13 is used as base for both numbers).They do get separate rolls. They do roll using the same modifier, but that's a coincidence based on the fact that neither weapon has any attack modifiers specific to it. Additionally, you can't use them with a standard action; any time you actively make more than one attack at a time, you have to use a full-round action to full attack.*BAB +6/+1. Two Weapon Fighting. Would it look something like this: Main hand +6, Main hand +1, Off hand +6?Correct.*BAB +6/+1. Improved Two Weapon fighting. Main hand +6, Main hand +1, Off hand +6, Off hand +1.Correct, assuming that you had both TWF and ITWF (abbreviations for the above-mentioned feats). TWF by itself doesn't give any attacks, but instead removes most of the penalties from making that extra attack. ITWF gives one extra attack. And by the way, I'd recommend going with a two-handed weapon instead and picking up Power Attack. Two-weapon fighting as a style is a poor choice unless you have a bunch of bonus damage to apply to it; two-handed fighting just needs Power Attack. (This is why it's recommended for rogues more than fighters.)I hope I asked these question in a way easy to understand. I learn best by example (which sadly is something the DnD books dont offer). Is there any place online that does DnD "couching" or tutorials? PErhaps a book?WotC does have the Rules of the Game articles; the ones you're looking for are here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060829a), here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060905a), and here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060912a). Keep in mind however that the articles are not the rules themselves; this distinction comes up when Skip Williams makes the occasional error. (Some are worse than others, though I don't recall the TWF articles having any.)
T3hB4k4 01-26-08, 03:23 PM	Ok I'll try to explain things here, let me know if I'm not making sense :) Assuming your attack bonus is +6/+1 for your main hand. That means with the Two Weapon Fighting feat your attack bonus with your off hand will be +6 (it will usually be the same as the main hand after all penalties due to the feat). In any case, you can only swing both weapons as part of a full attack action, any extra attacks you get for any reason in game only work on a full attack, unless the feat/whatever specifically says otherwise. So, that being the case, your full attack attack bonuses would look like this: +6 main hand, +6 off hand, +1 main hand You are only granted 1 extra attack per round by TWF, not 1 extra per main hand attack.
Tequila_Sunrise 01-26-08, 03:29 PM	*BAB = +6/+1 using a short sword. Assuming I dont get any attack bonuses from other places. Does this mean I get two attacks (as a full round action I believe), the first is +6 attack and the other is +1, or I can make 2 attacks with +1 for both. As a full round action you could take two attacks, one at +6 and one at +1. *Next up is general Two weapon fighting. Level 1 fighter with Two Weapon Fighting feat, Battle Ax and Handax (light). The fighter would swing both weapons as a standard action, correct? Do they both get seperate rolls? Or do the attack mods effect the same number on the die? (as in d20 = 13 is used as base for both numbers). Sadly, swinging two weapons at once always requires a full round action. (Though there is a feat from PHB II that lets you swing twice after a charge.) But yes, each attack gets a separate die roll. *BAB +6/+1. Two Weapon Fighting. Would it look something like this: Main hand +6, Main hand +1, Off hand +6? *BAB +6/+1. Improved Two Weapon fighting. Main hand +6, Main hand +1, Off hand +6, Off hand +1. You have all of this spot on. I hope I asked these question in a way easy to understand. I learn best by example (which sadly is something the DnD books dont offer). Is there any place online that does DnD "couching" or tutorials? Perhaps a book? As far as I know, there is no such resource which is sad because it would be a help to a lot of people. Also I feel I should warn you that two weapon fighting was designed for non-warriors in D&D. I don't often advise new players to change their character idea because its *TEH SUXXORZ* but you may end up very dissapointed at your performance as a warrior two weapon fighter. TWF is only really effective for rogue-types under the standard rules; personally I house rule TWF so it is actually useful for warriors in my game because I love the concept. TS
AvlonaSkullCleaver 01-26-08, 04:06 PM	Thank you everyone fore all the help. Just to continue to Two Weapon + BAB education I just want to throw up a couple more examples. Example 1: 11/6/1 with two weapons: 11 Main, 6 Main, 1 Main, 11 Off Example 2: 11/6/1 W/ITWF: 11 main, 6 main, 1 main, 11 off, 6 off Main hand gets all bonuses for BAB, and TW gets the highest, ITWF gets two highest, GTWF gets 3 highest, and PTWF gets any and all attacks. Yeah PTWF is high up there and pretty out of reach, but just to really get this all ingrained. TWF is only really effective for rogue-types under the standard rules; personally I house rule TWF so it is actually useful for warriors in my game because I love the concept. From what I can see mid-late levels can make the attacks and damage output really can really stack up. I can see the obvious perks of two handed weapons, but it seems that using two weapons can be just as effective (if not close to). On that note, if a warrior class doesnt do well, what makes rouges better with it? I can see the obvious appeal for rogue (no shield so better to put something in that hand). But ranger cant argue that because they can use shield and thus would be more likely to pick the ranged combat path. Would you mind sharing your house rules? This might help me unerstand TWF warrior vs TWF rouge. Finally (getting into a long post here), I am going down the two handed Power Attack path, and most likely barbarian, but I like knowing all my options. Again thank you all for the help!
Tovec 01-26-08, 04:14 PM	BAB (# of Attacks Start) TWF I.TWF G.TWF Attacks (# of Attacks Final) BAB 1-5 (1) Yes n/a n/a BAB-2/BAB-2 (2) BAB 6-10 (2) Yes No n/a BAB-2/BAB-2/BAB-7 (3) BAB 6-10 (2) Yes Yes n/a BAB-2/BAB-2/BAB-7/BAB-7 (4) BAB 11-15 (3) Yes Np No BAB-2/BAB-2/BAB-7/BAB-12 (4) BAB 11-15 (3) Yes Yes No BAB-2/BAB-2/BAB-7/BAB-7/BAB-12 (5) BAB 11-15 (3) Yes Yes Yes BAB-2/BAB-2/BAB-7/BAB-7/BAB-12/BAB-12 (6) BAB 16-20 (4) Yes No No BAB-2/BAB-2/BAB-7/BAB-12/BAB-17 (5) 16-20 (4) Yes Yes No BAB-2/BAB-2/BAB-7/BAB-7/BAB-12/BAB-17 (6) 16-20 (4) Yes Yes Yes BAB-2/BAB-2/BAB-7/BAB-7/BAB-12/BAB-12/BAB-17 (7) This table doesn't go epic. Its assuming you are using light weapon in off-hand. For some reason the table isn't working properly. Its not wanting to recognize tables.
NoldorForce 01-26-08, 04:38 PM	Example 1: 11/6/1 with two weapons: 11 Main, 6 Main, 1 Main, 11 Off Example 2: 11/6/1 W/ITWF: 11 main, 6 main, 1 main, 11 off, 6 offCorrect for both.Main hand gets all bonuses for BAB, and TW gets the highest, ITWF gets two highest, GTWF gets 3 highest, and PTWF gets any and all attacks. Yeah PTWF is high up there and pretty out of reach, but just to really get this all ingrained.Correct. And by a strict reading of the rules you even get to apply extra attacks from sources like Haste in this manner, shunting them to your offhand from your main hand.From what I can see mid-late levels can make the attacks and damage output really can really stack up. I can see the obvious perks of two handed weapons, but it seems that using two weapons can be just as effective (if not close to).IF you get a bunch of bonus damage, yes. But Power Attack (basically exclusive to two-handed fighting) is not only relatively easy to get as a bonus damage effect, but allows you to shunt attack modifiers in as well. A TWF-style character might get buffed by a bard's Inspire Courage for +6 to attacks and damage on his, say, six attacks. (The bard is a moderate optimizer and the TWF character has GTWF.) Let's say that he's wielding two short swords...so his average damage (assuming that he makes every attack) is (3.5 + 6 + .75 * Str) * 6 = 57 + 4.5 * Str. (Str here is his Strength modifier.) A THF-style character of the same level has an average damage value under the same parameters of (7 + 6 + 1.5 * Str) * 3 = 39 + 4.5 * Str. So it looks like the TWF character is doing better, right? Well, not really. First off, the TWF character has invested three feats in the style; the THF character hasn't spent anything, and thus can get, let's say, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, and Robilar's Gambit. I'll discuss the first one below, though the other two essentially allow the THF character to make more attacks by counterattacking as many times as he has attacks of opportunity. And his attacks hit harder. Second, the THF character doesn't have to focus on his Dexterity so much, and likely has a higher Strength score. Power Attack itself allows you to funnel that attack modifier into more damage if you so choose. So if the THF character is fighting wimpy-AC opponents, he might not have +6 to attacks and damage so much as +18 to damage. So now he's up to 75 + 4.5 * Str in average damage. And the TWF character can't do the same due to the rules in Power Attack. (Light weapons get no bonus damage from it.) The general point here is that it's easier to use Power Attack for big bonus damage with a two-hander than to get equivalent bonus damage for two weapons at a time. It's still possible to get lots of bonus damage for two or more weapons; it's just difficult. (As a side note, natural weapon fighting does allow decent returns for bonus damage because unlike with TWF you can Power Attack with them.)On that note, if a warrior class doesnt do well, what makes rouges better with it? I can see the obvious appeal for rogue (no shield so better to put something in that hand). But ranger cant argue that because they can use shield and thus would be more likely to pick the ranged combat path.Rogues get sneak attack damage fairly quickly. @ Tovec: So far as I know, vB doesn't do tables. Or HTML (which you're using), for that matter. Try typing it up in Notepad and then posting it as [code].
StevenO 01-26-08, 04:47 PM	Thank you everyone fore all the help. Just to continue to Two Weapon + BAB education I just want to throw up a couple more examples. Example 1: 11/6/1 with two weapons: 11 Main, 6 Main, 1 Main, 11 Off Example 2: 11/6/1 W/ITWF: 11 main, 6 main, 1 main, 11 off, 6 off Main hand gets all bonuses for BAB, and TW gets the highest, ITWF gets two highest, GTWF gets 3 highest, and PTWF gets any and all attacks. Yeah PTWF is high up there and pretty out of reach, but just to really get this all ingrained. Looks like you have the idea down. Remember you need to make a full attack for all those extra attacks and don't forget the penalties. Personally, I houserule GTWF and all other itterative off-hand attacks into ITW; by the time you get that third itterative attack the -10 and TWF penalty makes it less useful against tough opponents but getting that attack without spending a feat makes cutting through fodder that much cooler. From what I can see mid-late levels can make the attacks and damage output really can really stack up. I can see the obvious perks of two handed weapons, but it seems that using two weapons can be just as effective (if not close to). On that note, if a warrior class doesnt do well, what makes rouges better with it? I can see the obvious appeal for rogue (no shield so better to put something in that hand). But ranger cant argue that because they can use shield and thus would be more likely to pick the ranged combat path. Would you mind sharing your house rules? This might help me unerstand TWF warrior vs TWF rouge. Finally (getting into a long post here), I am going down the two handed Power Attack path, and most likely barbarian, but I like knowing all my options. Again thank you all for the help! The reason 2HF is preferable to TWF for the strong warrior type is damage output. Both 2HF and TWF give you 1.5 times your STR modifier to damage IF all attacks hit but note that with 2HF you only need one attack to get that damage while it always takes a successful full attack to get it with TWF. If you utilize Power Attack then the 2WF almost always gains more benefit; here the PA+2HF gets double the penalty added to damage but besides requiring more attacks the TWF of only gets the penalty to damage once (when using a 1hw and light weapon), not at all (two light weapons), or takes a bigger attack penalty (using two 1hw). The reason a rogue does better with TWF than a warrior type is that Sneak Attack damage is added in full to every attack instead of getting split up a little like STR based damage does. A rogue with a +15 BAB and all the TWF feats need to make six attacks during a full attack can add Sneak Attack damage six times. A fighter in the same circumstance could only add his STR x1.5 to damage three times at best. This is why when increasing the number of attacks you want bonus damage dice on every attack. The only houserule I use in regards to two weapon fighting is when it involves double weapons. When using a double weapon I use the 1hand+light modifiers for attack but when it comes to damage I treat both sides as if they are one-handed primary weapons. This means full STR to both sides (often a minor damage increase to the off-hand side) and full Power Attack to both sides (instead of normally not getting any PA on one side because it is considered a "light" weapon).
AvlonaSkullCleaver 01-26-08, 04:48 PM	Aww, all right there in front of me but wasn't looking har enough. When it comes down to it, it is investing feats into the skills that would make TWF worth while. Thus a Ranger gets them for free and that does make it worth while (being able to pick up other feats along the way). Rogues get sneak attack damage fairly quickly How does this come into play? Does he get SA damage with each weapon?
NoldorForce 01-26-08, 04:55 PM	How does this come into play? Does he get SA damage with each weapon?You get sneak attack damage on every attack that's applicable. Of course, you have to set things up, but with the right party dynamic it's not that hard to either flank or have an opponent denied their Dexterity bonus to AC.
DrMorganes 01-26-08, 05:08 PM	That table is still not working... The Rules of the Game Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) has a three-part series that goes into more detail on the concepts of Two-Handed Fighting. Part 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060829a) Part 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060905a) Part 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060912a) Part 3 has examples for how the penalties and bonuses to your attack roll are applied. In essence, TWF with a light weapon gets you -2 to your first main hand attack, -2 to your offhand attack, and then your iterative attack with your main hand is made with its normal -5 penalty.
NoldorForce 01-26-08, 06:31 PM	That table is still not working...As above, it's HTML, and I don't believe that WotC's system accepts it directly. (Otherwise you'd see links that didn't have the "You are leaving Wizards of the Coast" bar at the top.)The Rules of the Game Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) has a three-part series that goes into more detail on the concepts of Two-Handed Fighting. Part 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060829a) Part 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060905a) Part 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060912a) Part 3 has examples for how the penalties and bonuses to your attack roll are applied. In essence, TWF with a light weapon gets you -2 to your first main hand attack, -2 to your offhand attack, and then your iterative attack with your main hand is made with its normal -5 penalty.WotC does have the Rules of the Game articles; the ones you're looking for are here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060829a), here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060905a), and here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060912a). Keep in mind however that the articles are not the rules themselves; this distinction comes up when Skip Williams makes the occasional error. (Some are worse than others, though I don't recall the TWF articles having any.)See above. :D
Tequila_Sunrise 01-28-08, 01:25 AM	Would you mind sharing your house rules? This might help me unerstand TWF warrior vs TWF rouge. My TWF house rules can be found here. (http://lucasbuchanan.com/Miscellaneous%20House%20Rules) The reason that rogues are so much better with TWF than warriors is that their sneak attack dice (the rogue's primary source of damage) can be freely added to both weapons, while a warrior's primary sources of damage (Strength bonus, Power Attack, magic enhancements) are severly handicapped by using a second weapon. If you compare a high level TWFer to a low level TWFer of course the damage will look impressive, but if you compare a TWFer of any level with a THFer of the same level, you'll realize that TWFing is strictly inferior for the warrior: Attack Bonus: A TWFer is at best penalized by -2/-2 which effectively reduces total damage by 10%. No other weapon style has this penalty. Strength Bonus: A TWFer adds roughly one and a half his Str bonus to damage, though this Str bonus will most likely be less than other warriors because of the high Dex requirements for the TWF feats. Meanwhile THFers add their better one and a half Str bonus to damage and sword and shielders add their Str bonus plus they have the defensive benefits of their shield. Magic Items: TWFers must spend twice as much on their weapon style as THFers and a third again as much as sword and shielders. Full Attacks: TWFers need full attacks (mostly) in order to actually use their style, while nobody else does. Against mobile enemies and spellcasters this can be very difficult. Damage Reduction: DR applies per attack so it hurts TWFers twice as much as other warriors. And just to top it off, you can't even complete the TWF feat tree without getting a special DM okay. (Supreme TWF is an epic feat but there is absolutely no reason for it not to be available at +16 BAB and the game designers apparently decided that getting more than a +1 shield bonus via TWD requires yet another splat book.) Frankly I can't help but wonder why WotC hates TWF warriors so much; and there's no sign that TWF will be any better in 4e. *sigh* TS